A11y Slacker archive 06/08/15

zakim-robot

Aug 06 01:25

[Thomas Logan, a11y] @valhead The Chrome plugin worked correctly on the SVG and animated GIF example for me. I’m using OSX 10.10.4 and Chrome Version 44.0.2403.130 (64-bit)
zakim-robot

Aug 06 01:33

[Jesse Beach, a11y] @kurafire: '/' is often mapped to app-internal search
zakim-robot

Aug 06 01:35

[Jesse Beach, a11y] google, twitter, facebook: they all use this conventin
zakim-robot

Aug 06 01:41

[Faruk Ateş, a11y] Yeah, except those are all sites that none of these users use
zakim-robot

Aug 06 01:41

[Faruk Ateş, a11y] (@jessebeach)
zakim-robot

Aug 06 01:41

[Faruk Ateş, a11y] well, I’m sure a bunch of them use Google in their private time, but they don’t at work
zakim-robot

Aug 06 01:42

[Faruk Ateş, a11y] (i.e. when using this product)
zakim-robot

Aug 06 02:11

[Val Head, a11y] @techthomas: Awesome! Thanks for checking it :simple_smile:
zakim-robot

Aug 06 03:07

[som, a11y] @jessebeach: ‘/‘ is mapped to quick search in firefox
zakim-robot

Aug 06 03:21

[Jesse Beach, a11y] @som blarg!
zakim-robot

Aug 06 03:35

[som, a11y] @jessebeach: damn browsers hijacking our app shortcuts!
zakim-robot

Aug 06 03:43

[Jesse Beach, a11y] @som: Then layer the JAWS/VoiceOver shortcuts on top of those
zakim-robot

Aug 06 03:44

[Jesse Beach, a11y] :tired_face:
zakim-robot

Aug 06 03:44

[som, a11y] @jessebeach: everyone wins
stevefaulkner

08:58

A11ySlackers chat log 5th of August 2015 - http://w3c.github.io/a11ySlackers/archives/050815.html
stevefaulkner

09:05

@powrsurg re: https://gitter.im/w3c/a11ySlackers?at=55c2176beff8f1d77cc34a58 so the data can be grouped in to low/average/high or some such based on its position in the bell curve?
MichielBijl

10:11

@Faruk Ates: I wouldn’t change default browser behaviour
MichielBijl

10:13

I’m having trouble with a list item animation, the client wants the animation to start on hover (shows more information), so I added tabindex=0 and also applied the animation on focus. Problem is that with VoiceOver, the animation is not activated (because the list item doesn’t receive focus I assume), but the information is shown both visually and read out. Not sure whether this would cause problems. Code example: http://s.codepen.io/Michiel/debug/6a73f22c622f299a80eefa0999f0c48e
StommePoes

10:15

I suppose it could be an issue for a semi-sighted VO user... it's always possibly confusing if invisible stuff gets read out.
StommePoes

10:15

but you say it's shown
StommePoes

10:15

just not, what, slowly?
MichielBijl

10:16

If you go back, it doesn’t always show, I’ll make a video.
MichielBijl

10:19

Might not be the clearest of videos, but hey: http://agosto.nl/dir/accessibility/staff-list.mov
MichielBijl

10:19

First interaction is with mouse, followed by tabkey, followed by VoiceOver
MichielBijl

10:21

alt= Video shows interaction with a list of staff members, photo and information of member is changed when interacted with via either keyboard or mouse.
StommePoes

11:09

what's with the bazillion unselectable="on"'s here? http://demos.telerik.com/kendo-ui/multiselect/index
stevefaulkner

11:13

what's with the bazillion unselectable="on"'s here? http://demos.telerik.com/kendo-ui/multiselect/index

"Standards information There are no standards that apply here." MS proprietary https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/Hh801966%28v=VS.85%29.aspx
StommePoes

11:18

the html example is a little weird with what appears to be an attempt at nested p's
StommePoes

11:19

"This text closes the SPAN and cannot be selected either." not after the browser gets done with error rendering, surely?
StommePoes

11:21

<p>
StommePoes

11:21

<span id="oSpan" unselectable="on">This text cannot be selected.
StommePoes

11:21

</span></p><p>
StommePoes

11:21

<textarea wrap="physical" rows="5" style="font-weight: bold;" id="oTextarea">This text can be selected and overwritten.
StommePoes

11:21

</textarea>
StommePoes

11:21

<p></p>
StommePoes

11:21

</p>
StommePoes

11:21

This text closes the SPAN and cannot be selected either.
StommePoes

11:21

Is there someone we can write to at MS about these pages? This code example is way too b0rked to allow to live.
stevefaulkner

11:23

@StommePoes at bottom of the MSDN page is a link to 'make a suggestion' ;-)
StommePoes

11:26

http://feedback.msdn.com/forums/257782-msdn-feature-suggestions/suggestions/9197898-fix-the-html-example-on-https-msdn-microsoft-com
StommePoes

11:26

Vote, y'all. I'll shake hands and kiss babies. (ug)
StommePoes

11:27

still, if the code example worked, it would suggest that unselectable can be a DOM-inheritance thing... so the example at telerik ought not to need it repeated on every child, grand-child and great-great-great-grandbaby
MichielBijl

12:35

You got my votes.
MichielBijl

12:37

Any thoughts on the staff list thingy? It can be a problem for sighted VO users. Haven’t tested with NVDA or JAWS.
StommePoes

12:39

so what are the invisible focusables with the ring?
StommePoes

12:39

if there's sound in that video, I don't have any
MichielBijl

12:43

No there is no sound.
MichielBijl

12:43

Well, as you can see, the content shifts while using VO
MichielBijl

12:44

It doe get focus (looks like it anyway), but if you leave, the focus state is maintained; and thus the content is shifted.
MichielBijl

12:44

If you go back to the element, VO selects the title first (staff name), but that is at this point invincible.
MichielBijl

12:44

Invisible*
simonhudson

12:46

Braille smartwatch. Interesting. https://www.techinasia.com/dot-braille-smartwatch/
MichielBijl

12:48

“One thing you could safely assume about nearly every one of those customers, though – they can all see.” That’s just bogus.
MichielBijl

12:50

http://www.mollywatt.com/blog/entry/my-apple-watch-after-5-days
MichielBijl

12:50

http://blindnotalone.com/tag/apple-watch/
MichielBijl

12:50

http://www.afb.org/blog/afb-blog/day-1-with-the-apple-watch-how-a-blind-user-pairs-the-watch-with-the-iphone/12
MichielBijl

12:51

Sorry, stopped reading after that.
MichielBijl

12:51

The first line of that article is also so wrong on so many levels.
MichielBijl

12:51

“if you’re reading this sentence right now, you don’t need the product featured in this article.”
MichielBijl

12:51

Really?!
StommePoes

12:51

wtf
StommePoes

12:52

ok wait which article has the sentence with they can all ssee?
MichielBijl

12:52

The watch is interesting and all, but that article should be re-written.
MichielBijl

12:52

The one about the dot-braille-smartwatch
StommePoes

12:53

only a single comment called him out
StommePoes

12:54

that girl has a small tunnel vision in one eye and still manages to put on makeup better than me
StommePoes

12:54

man I should just give up being a girl
MichielBijl

12:54

Come to the men side; we have no sense for style and don’t really give a crap.
StommePoes

12:55

the bradley has also looked interesting to me, but I already have a watch that's pretty weird so I dunno if I could switch to an actually fashionable one
StommePoes

12:55

yeah I tend to wear Brogrammer Standard Suit
StommePoes

12:56

honestly I'm excited by material design stuff that's trying to make moving surfaces
StommePoes

12:57

would let us do so much
StommePoes

13:00

I had to twot the apple watch review. Only other one I've read that was interesting was Oatmeal's
MichielBijl

13:02

Let’s see what happends here: https://twitter.com/MichielBijl/status/629259712689737728
StommePoes

13:06

I'm trying to play Amanda's talk on the wordpress thing but as I usually often have video issue on all browsers I can't tell if it hasn't started yet or if it's just my browsers
StommePoes

13:06

I get a picture with Please Stand By
StommePoes

13:07

ah I should check her time zone
MichielBijl

13:11

Mr. Moreshead replies: https://twitter.com/ColinMoreshead/status/629262562111000576
StommePoes

13:13

my tweet might make the basic point clearer. These were his assumptions: the blind don't/can't read, and they don't use technology.
StommePoes

13:14

pfff... honestly even though I watch for it, I rarely see random people around me with obvious physical disabilities. People who aren't in The World don't see it either, so they don't know. One way to change that would to have obviously-disabled more visible in the world, but there aren't enough I don't think.
StommePoes

13:15

So the other option is more media exposure. Where media means films tv radio and interwebz, and exposure just means them being out there, rather than one-off "inspirational" stories.
StommePoes

13:53

the slider plugin guy was like "yeah we don't want the defaults to have buttons because they're more CSS" and you're expected to use it some whole different way that I'm too stupid to figure out so I remain using an inaccessible plugin that I only know how to fix for myself. Joy.
MichielBijl

13:56

Thank you for your reply, seems the guy is not really willing to learn…
deborahgu

14:13

Thanks for beating your head against the brick wall, anyway. :-(
MichielBijl

14:15

Somebody has to do it.
MichielBijl

14:15

And since he completely ignored Janina (who posted a week ago), I thought I’d bring it up again.
StommePoes

14:17

And then he says we don't discuss this via twitter, which I can understand and stuff, but you need to register to Yet Another BS Account to comment.
StommePoes

14:18

Surprised Janina bothered, she must've been pissed or maybe she's actually a regular reader, dunno
MichielBijl

14:19

No, that is her only comment.
MichielBijl

14:19

She’s on the PFWG, so I think she was just pissed ;)
StommePoes

14:20

I understand it's one of the easier ways to stop both spam and LOL comments, but registration is such a hurdle for people like me who are tired of using keepass just because of it
StommePoes

14:20

Yeah she's also a linux user (fedora) so I thought possibly she reads it as a techie-blog-something
StommePoes

14:22

jedrzejchalubek/Glide.js#108 "This is a special case for a special product" I don't agree with him here, but whatever. I made the issue, the version on our crappy site is working, so I'm done. Plus, it's his plugin, not mine, and I didn't choose it anyway. Does look snappy though.
StommePoes

14:22

he did bother making it "responsive" without anyone needing to play around with code not sitting as example on his site though.
MichielBijl

14:49

Added a comment.
MichielBijl

14:50

Good start to the afternoon, spend more than two hours on comments and achieved nothing that makes money; I’m a good employee…
StommePoes

14:53

Heh.
StommePoes

14:53

I'm getting told to wait on my tasks as designers are making new images for me, they keep changing their minds :P
StommePoes

14:53

Make it blue! No wait, make it grey! No wait, we'll send another...
MichielBijl

14:54

As long as the text on the images is a slightly lighter colour than that of the image; they’ll be fine…
StommePoes

14:57

white on light blue
MichielBijl

15:03

BTW, before I polute a git issue :p
MichielBijl

15:03

What example are you talking about?
MichielBijl

15:03

The one in the zip?
MichielBijl

15:04

Because I’m talking about the example on his website; that uses div’s and li’s for navigation
StommePoes

15:06

he has some code you can just see, which is all spans and shizzle
StommePoes

15:07

but if you inspect the working versions (one on the main page, another on the docs), those are a bit more structured
StommePoes

15:07

I think his working examples are newer than the text code he's got
MichielBijl

15:07

OK, but the live example on the home page is not keyboard accessible.
MichielBijl

15:08

So regardless of whether it’s newer; it’s wrong.
StommePoes

15:10

I believe example codes of anything should be the correct and accessible ones
StommePoes

15:10

but I wouldn't have made a github issue over that
StommePoes

15:11

I made an issue because I did all this fixing and thought it needed to be added to teh plugin
MichielBijl

15:11

I wholeheartedly agree with you
StommePoes

15:11

but if you don't keep the list structure of the bullets... and while they seem to me like a list, I can hear front-enders I know saying it doesn't have to be... then the javascript doesn't really need to be adjusted
StommePoes

15:11

so then it falls back to, just a bad example set.
StommePoes

15:12

Which is bad, because the whole reason a developer chooses a plugin is not-reinvent-the-wheel/laziness/deadlines
StommePoes

15:12

but, not worth an issue.
zakim-robot

15:12

[monastic.panic, a11y] if disabled inputs don't draw focus how to folks using SR's know about them?
zakim-robot

15:12

[monastic.panic, a11y] or rephrased, is it better to use readOnly inputs
StommePoes

15:12

I once made a bootstrap issue that all the examples were terrible for accessibility, @fat said too bad, closed wontfix. So I don't bother wasting my time making those issues.
StommePoes

15:13

no use disabled when you need disabled
StommePoes

15:13

disableds don't send their info out to the form for example
StommePoes

15:13

readonlies do
StommePoes

15:13

but remember most SR users aren't keyboarders like me
StommePoes

15:13

most of them don't Tab through most things
zakim-robot

15:14

[monastic.panic, a11y] really? it seems like SR with a mouse is hard
StommePoes

15:14

there's other navigation, and while I can't say they don't ever miss disableds, you can usually go and look at them with another navigation method
StommePoes

15:14

screen reader with a mouse? You mean, if someone wants to read what's on a disabled input and read-on-mouse-over is on?
zakim-robot

15:15

[monastic.panic, a11y] i guess it seems like if you are using hte keyboard disabled inputs are invisible
StommePoes

15:15

in Orca I don't get speech but I think my setup isn't quite correct because I hear others say they can
StommePoes

15:15

well, they're out of the tab order, true
zakim-robot

15:15

[monastic.panic, a11y] which my not be my UX intent with it
zakim-robot

15:15

[monastic.panic, a11y] may*
StommePoes

15:15

It depends why it's disabled in your case maybe
zakim-robot

15:15

[monastic.panic, a11y] yeah definately
stevefaulkner

15:16

@monastic.panic disabled elements are still exposed in the accessibility tree with a disabled state and can be navigated to using virtual focus, its platform standard for disabled elements not to be focusable
MichielBijl

15:16

In VoiceOver, you can select disabled inputs, and they will be read as “Some text, dimmed, edit text”
StommePoes

15:16

I use disabled when the button or form control is there because maybe it's usually there, but the user should go on about their business as if it's not there, becuase it's not applicable at the moment.
StommePoes

15:16

Readonlies mean, users should see there's a control and a value, but they cannot edit it.
StommePoes

15:16

edit text??
StommePoes

15:16

really?
StommePoes

15:16

that sounds wrong.
MichielBijl

15:16

edit text = input type text
StommePoes

15:17

really?
StommePoes

15:17

on a disabled?
MichielBijl

15:17

All input’s that require text input are spoken like that
MichielBijl

15:17

Yep
zakim-robot

15:17

[monastic.panic, a11y] ya ok thanks everyone, that makes sense :simple_smile:
zakim-robot

15:17

[monastic.panic, a11y] side question should i do anything with "hover" in say a listbox?
stevefaulkner

15:17

@StommePoes thats a noun not a command
StommePoes

15:17

edit?
zakim-robot

15:17

[monastic.panic, a11y] moving focus reads out more useful info it seems
stevefaulkner

15:18

"edit text"
StommePoes

15:18

I only get that when I focus on an input, which I can't do wih a disabled
StommePoes

15:19

also I guess I always misheard, I thought it said "edit type in text" rather than "type text"
StommePoes

15:19

you should see how I interpret 90% of song lyrics lawlz
MichielBijl

15:21

This is with the virtual focus
stevefaulkner

15:40

hey @alice you know anything about? https://twitter.com/stevefaulkner/status/629300526203674624
zakim-robot

15:51

[heidi valles, a11y] hi! Looking for info on what a QA process might look like for checking a11y of a large (>5k pages) website, including both automated and manual checks. Any resources for this out there?
zakim-robot

15:51

[heidi valles, a11y] This would be following a remediation sprint.
powrsurg

15:55

@stevefaulkner :point_up: August 6, 2015 4:05 AM (I hope I did that right, not sure how to link to comments in here). I guess one would say so. The mean is the average score for a quiz in this case. As you go more standard deviations away from the mean you're covering more scores.
powrsurg

15:55

What I'm wondering is about conveying the information in the green line for the curve: http://codepen.io/anon/pen/RPvYQZ
stevefaulkner

15:57

@powrsurg seemed to work ok :-) note anonymous pens can't be emebedded :-(
powrsurg

15:57

Yeah, I need to register for codepen ...
powrsurg

15:57

... which I never knew was pay until I just clicked on that ...
stevefaulkner

16:00

@powrsurg do you have to pay? i didn't...
powrsurg

16:00

... I should scroll more ... didn't see "free plan" at the bottom
powrsurg

16:03

http://codepen.io/powrsurg/pen/eNxLKO
stevefaulkner

16:05

@powrsurg :-)
MichielBijl

16:07

@StommePoes awesome! https://github.com/jedrzejchalubek/Glide.js/issues/108#issuecomment-128405381
stevefaulkner

16:09

@MichielBijl @MichielBijl you dutchies are hard cases
MichielBijl

16:10

Haha, I’m just happy we convinced him :)
stevefaulkner

16:16

@powrsurg so is it worth putting some extra info with each data point about its relationship to the curve? I don't know as i am crap at maths
stevefaulkner

16:17

question being would the additional info add noise without making the data clearer?
powrsurg

16:31

Honestly, I believe that information is already conveyed with the histogram (e.g. it reads "1 learner failed with a score of 80." "20 learners passed with a score of 90") and the information about the mastery score, mean, etc. below
powrsurg

16:32

co-worker just joked "Well, if they have a 3D printer they can print out the chart" which of course I now would love to somehow accomplish
StommePoes

16:32

can you re-use plastic from those things?
StommePoes

16:32

((( refreshable 3d printing...)))
stevefaulkner

16:33

Honestly, I believe that information is already conveyed with the histogram (e.g. it reads "1 learner failed with a score of 80." "20 learners passed with a score of 90") and the information about the mastery score, mean, etc. below

then i think you have your answer
powrsurg

16:34

okay, thanks. :)
stevefaulkner

16:36

may be helpful: Accessible Analytics - Complex Charts, Large Datasets, and Node Diagrams https://www-03.ibm.com/able/news/accessibleanalyticsfull.html
powrsurg

16:37

oooh, nice
StommePoes

16:38

Detlev has a proto-chapter something about accessible diagrams as well, was looking fro feedback on it
StommePoes

16:39

I'll find the link
StommePoes

16:40

http://www.incobs.de/articles/items/diagram-a11y.html
garcialo

16:42

@StommePoes Yes, there are a few projects out there for recycling printed parts into filament to be used for printing again.
StommePoes

16:43

@garcialo that would be cool, because one thing that bothers me about 3d printing is how it's encouraging even m0aR plastic crap in our lives
StommePoes

16:43

and a lot of cool accessibility ideas with 3d printing are one-offs
StommePoes

16:44

comparing ginormous heavy expensive braille textbooks with refreshable braille when you're just browser stuff or reading emails etc
zakim-robot

16:44

[monastic.panic, a11y] anyone recomment a role/tag for an item inside a selectable gridcell
StommePoes

16:44

would be cool to have "refreshable" 3d printing
zakim-robot

16:44

[monastic.panic, a11y] i'd like to use title but I guess i can do that on any component?
zakim-robot

16:44

[monastic.panic, a11y] tag*
MichielBijl

16:47

@StommePoes didn’t you post something about not adding taget=“_blank”? Having an argument with a PM
StommePoes

16:50

I'm forced to open almost everything in new windows, they actually don't care how I do it and writing a shitton of JS isn't worth it, so I target blank them.
StommePoes

16:50

Or both!
StommePoes

16:50

I've used Javascript to add target-blanks!
StommePoes

16:50

Is that not a double sin or what?
zakim-robot

16:51

[waqas, a11y] I'm curious about what the accessibility situation is like for embedded web based chat (i.e., a small chat window inside a larger page). Facebook chat, gchat, etc.
StommePoes

16:51

I know the folks on the orca mailing list use facebook chat
StommePoes

16:51

but FB keeps changing their protocol or something
StommePoes

16:51

typical FB... anyway, often they'll use pidgin or something to access it
StommePoes

16:52

that is, any chat protocol that an accessible chat client supports, can be accessed that way
zakim-robot

16:52

[waqas, a11y] I was primarily interested in web based chat UIs, particularly ones which exist inside a separate web page. Native is far easier.
StommePoes

16:53

@Michiel oh did you want links? I found a somewhat horribly-written thing by Vitali at Smashing Mag, a raging opinion piece with no data and some <script language="javascript"> junk... in 2008. But somewhere else I also found a bunch of UX and a11y people stating more specific reasons against it.
StommePoes

16:53

However: in the Netherlands, because new windows/tabs are so prevalent, the average Dutch population is more comfortable with it and expect it more than say, 'muricans
StommePoes

16:54

Similarly, I don't use google chat via the browser, it's so difficult to work with, I can't resize it to my needs, so I pipe that junk through pidgin too.
StommePoes

16:55

web chat sucks, perhaps because at best it's a poor-man's imitation of a dedicated, built and tested and integrated with your OS/windowing system client... my opinion though.
MichielBijl

16:56

Hmm, I thought I read something about it today.
MichielBijl

16:56

Memory still sucks I guess.
deborahgu

17:20

I have a big post brewing, StommePoes, about how the problems with target=blank were one of those places where the early web standards were flawed, and instead of fixing them, we did the same thing we've done with keyboard controls: leaving it up to every individual to write their own javascript modals, all of which are terrible, inaccessible, and non-responsive.
alice

17:20

@stevefaulkner No, I don't - looks like you got a response though!
deborahgu

17:21

And what we really should have done instead (and maybe should still do) is create the concept of an HTML dialog, right in HTML, that gives you a dialog box that moves with your tab/window, but has browser-standard controls and behavior.
deborahgu

17:22

Also, StommePoes, I have to pipe all of my various chat programs into pidgin; most of the web interfaces have limited keyboard functionality and are really just hacks around what a dedicated program does better. I'm comparing Google, hipchat, etc. Google cutting off xmpp effectively cut me off talking to my Gchat friends for that reason.
StommePoes

17:22

deborah you mean like when we are pretty sure we're doing the Right Thing with new tabs/windows because for example you're filling our a form and there's this weird field with a helpful "what'
StommePoes

17:22

s this?" link
StommePoes

17:22

Deborah I was worried about that too but so far xmpp for google is still working
deborahgu

17:23

right stommepoes /o\
StommePoes

17:23

but I will be pissed when it stops because their chat is ssooooo freaking unusable
deborahgu

17:23

(for me it's working intermittently. Some people, not others.)
StommePoes

17:23

well they stated it as a plan, so prolly a phase-out
deborahgu

17:23

But, seriously, any time every individual JavaScript developer/module is re-creating the world to give some functionality to every webpage, maybe we should be thinking about whether or not that belongs as part of the main standard. Obviously it won't be true for everything, but we've got all these things that JS developers all individually re-create the wheel,
deborahgu

17:24

and then after the fact, the ARIA WG eventually adopts the functionality from a bunch of them into roles,
StommePoes

17:24

yeah I want a native dialog element
StommePoes

17:24

but then, unlike form controls, it needs to be fully styleable by devs
StommePoes

17:24

otherwise it'll just turn into shit like Chosen
deborahgu

17:25

and then basically ARIA has retroactively absorbed created a standard around all of these homegrown individual implementations, which may or may not decide to use the ARIA, and then browsers and AT ay or may not decide to respect the ARIA.
StommePoes

17:25

which really isn't so shit, it's a good try, but still broken
deborahgu

17:25

oh heck yeah, it needs to be styleable.
stevefaulkner

17:25

@deborahgu thats what happened with new features in HTML5, problem is even when stuff is implemented natively in HTML/browsers it still gets re-invented
deborahgu

17:25

But it makes me sad. So many things we've been modernizing constantly, we didn't just let HTML sit in a grey-page mosaic glory.
StommePoes

17:25

Because HTML is the past, man, we gotta get to the future, we need something cool and hip
deborahgu

17:25

yeah, stevefaulkner, true. :( but still, it would be better than the situation we have now.
deborahgu

17:26

Well we've got all these developers who grew up on JavaScript, and think of it as the one true language, and are writing backend system code and frameworks and single page apps, because they haven't been around long enough to see why that's a bad idea. So they wouldn't use an HTML native dialog, no matter how styleable, that is true.
StommePoes

17:28

On the one hand, they use JS for everything. But on the other hand, they're all trying so hard to pipe other languages to it. I think currently the hip language for this is Closure, but of course there's still Dart
StommePoes

17:28

or, worse, angular-dart
StommePoes

17:28

Husband was working with that, posted a gazillion lines of code that did nothing more than print Hello World.
StommePoes

17:28

So cute.
zakim-robot

17:29

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] stevefaulkner - you mean things like <main> ?
stevefaulkner

17:29

@alice yeah :-)
zakim-robot

17:32

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] @stevefaulkner in that case it's not so much reinventing it as just .. not using it at all :confused:
stevefaulkner

17:37

@alice crossed conversations I was replying to https://gitter.im/w3c/a11ySlackers?at=55c389658308ade51669d219
stevefaulkner

17:37

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] stevefaulkner - you mean things like <main> ?

what was this in reference to?
zakim-robot

17:37

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] haha
alice

17:38

:point_up: August 6, 2015 9:25 AM
stevefaulkner

17:40

@alice I was thinking more about the host of new interactive elements added in HTML5
stevefaulkner

17:41

@alice how did you do that pointing hand thing?
StommePoes

17:41

all I see is ":point_ip: [stuff]"
StommePoes

17:41

er, up
StommePoes

17:42

so I guess that's how she does it ;)
alice

17:43

haha - I followed the instruction on the timestamp to alt-click it
alice

17:43

and that happened
alice

17:43

@StommePoes do you literally see [stuff]? Or a link?
stevefaulkner

17:45

haha - I followed the instruction on the timestamp to alt-click it

ah i saw that but totally ignore it thanks!
alice

17:46

I don't think I like it tbh
alice

17:47

Slack actually quotes the linked post
stevefaulkner

17:47

:point_up: August 6, 2015 5:46 PM I do
zakim-robot

17:47

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] [sorry for noise here] https://web-a11y.slack.com/archives/general/p1438879631003721
alice

17:48
alice

17:48

alt=screenshot of slack UI where the linked post is quoted
alice

17:49

(though I chose an unfortunate post to quote)
powrsurg

17:53

@StommePoes HTML5 just defined a <dialog> element. Works in Chrome already
stevefaulkner

17:55

@powrsurg and works well, good thing about it is easily stylable
zakim-robot

18:01

[monastic.panic, a11y] is is kosher to have a role='combobox' own a grid instead of a listbox?
StommePoes

18:34

@alice I literally see text, yeah
StommePoes

18:34

I'm piping this via Pidgin
StommePoes

18:36

@powrsurg I've heard it discussed for years (first for loquation, then ditched, then for popups), but again, when your clients are enterprise, you're building your own stuff (or using jQuery's or Bootstrap's or whomever's) for years after the hip new youth could use it :) Still, it's a good start.
alice

18:36

@StommePoes What text, though?
StommePoes

18:38

I dunno if it'll "convert" if I just copy paste for you, but lemme try
StommePoes

18:38

(06:38:17 PM) alice: :point_up: August 6, 2015 9:25 AM
StommePoes

18:38

if that doesn't look like text to you, then I'll misspell some of it :)
StommePoes

18:39

(06:38:17 PM) alice : :point_ip: [August 6, 2015 9:25 AM]\ (https://gitter.im/w3c/a11ySlackers?at=55c38a754e42d518111ff552\)
MichielBijl

18:39

It’s a link in the gitter UI
StommePoes

18:40

it's something, I dunno what. I don't worry :)
zakim-robot

18:40

[monastic.panic, a11y] oof nvda doesn't seem to read off owned grids/listboxes if the owenr is a textbox?
zakim-robot

18:40

[monastic.panic, a11y] trying to fix aria on a datepicker
zakim-robot

18:40

[monastic.panic, a11y] combobox seems like the wrong role
alice

18:41

@StommePoes Yeah the first version rendered as a link, the second as a nicely mangled markdown link :)
StommePoes

18:41

there were some datepickers posted here earlier in the week...
StommePoes

18:45

lessee, these were posted: http://freqdec.github.io/datePicker/demo/ , http://assets.cms.gov/resources/framework/2.0/Pages/datepicker.html , http://webaim.org/discussion/mail_message?id=28308 , http://wet-boew.github.io/wet-boew/demos/datepicker/datepicker-en.html
StommePoes

18:45

I'm sure they don't all agree on aria roles but it might give you ideas of what to try
zakim-robot

18:47

[monastic.panic, a11y] thanks, i've been poking through them, most seem to just not work well in nvda hmm
zakim-robot

18:48

[monastic.panic, a11y] or rather none of htem seem navagable by keyboard
deborahgu

18:50

Question: is it still true that pixel-sizes don't scale properly in magnification in browsers? It seems like most of them have address the problem so that zooming happens correctly, but I admit it's not an expertise of mine (and I am terrible at using actual magnifiers e.g. zoomtext, so testing the difference between browser zoom and magnifier is a real weakness for me).
StommePoes

18:51

it's IE when you choose the manual text-enlargement, and that was older IE
MichielBijl

18:51

@deborahgu not as far as I know (not sure about magnifiers)
StommePoes

18:51

but pixel zoom in browsers, and what ZT does is rerender (I had to turn off a bunch of font-smoothing stuff in Firefox
StommePoes

18:51

So in IE, in ZT, the text is fucking beautiful
MichielBijl

18:51

As far as IE11, FF35, Safari 7 and Chrome go
StommePoes

18:51

in Firefox, for some reason, it looks like badly drawn flash vectors
MichielBijl

18:51

Don’t have statistics for all
StommePoes

18:51

however I don't know what I messed up, I assume it's me
deborahgu

18:51

I did think that newer IE gets it right, so it sounds like it does
deborahgu

18:51

huh!
StommePoes

18:52

but I know that I had to turn a bunch of stuff off
StommePoes

18:52

which you can read about in the how-to's of the ZT pages over at aiSquared
StommePoes

18:52

cause nothing worked until I did that :)
deborahgu

18:52

does this mean the "only use em" advice is going the way of "use strong, not <b>"?
deborahgu

18:52

ha!
StommePoes

18:52

so cleartext had to go off, etc
StommePoes

18:52

Even px fonts were still rendered as a flexible unit
StommePoes

18:53

but I still avoid them, with one exception: some parent fontsize was set to 0 as some hack
StommePoes

18:53

But yeah I haven't actually found anything actually break anymore with px font sizes.
mrjason

19:01

I have a talk for 30 minutes with a group of open source developers and I am trying to think of some basic information about developing accessible code that I could convey. Does anyone have any resources I should share or topics they would recommend focusing on?
StommePoes

19:01

uh
StommePoes

19:02

what kind of developers? what do they already know? do they work with actual users? clients? faceless suits?
StommePoes

19:02

what does accessibility mean to them? do they care about people, or the law?
StommePoes

19:02

which law? which country?
StommePoes

19:02

which disabilities? or also non-physical disabilities? Poverty? shitty networks? sun glare?
StommePoes

19:03

AT software? web? desktop? ... there's a lot, so you might need to add some specifics.
StommePoes

19:04

it's hard to get even the big things through in only 30 minutes, so it's prolly best to focus on whatever's closest to these people. What they do most days.
mrjason

19:04
PHP developers with Javascript (yui and some jquery)
deborahgu

19:04

All StommePoes's questions are vital. Though webdevs, focus on JS.
mrjason

19:04

1a. Varies there some of university programmers som are part of hte core dev team and don't test with actual users
mrjason

19:05

1b. It is Moodle developers a learning management system for online education
mrjason

19:05
WCAG 2 AA is the conformance standard they target as a project
mrjason

19:06

the product is used in 270 countries world wide
deborahgu

19:06

JS is huge, then. 99% of JS can be out of the box accessible, but never is. It takes effort, their effort.
mrjason

19:06

Physical disabilities would probably be where I start but cognitive should also be considered imo
deborahgu

19:07

LMS: lawsuits. I have a huge list of lawsuits against universitires.
mrjason

19:07

AT software targted by the proejct is IE + JAWS, Firefox + NVDA, Safari + Voiceover
StommePoes

19:07

cognative is important, but I wonder if content creators and writers and diagram-makers have to carry the brunt of that (assuming these are separate people and not dumped on the devs)
mrjason

19:07

these will not be the teachers creating the conent
mrjason

19:07

it will be the developers creating the tools that the teachers and students us
mrjason

19:07

use
StommePoes

19:08

and for example, choosing names of buttons and explanations etc?
mrjason

19:08

That sounds liek a start to me
StommePoes

19:08

Hm. Well
mrjason

19:08

i would start with basics i think
StommePoes

19:08

If they're doing JS, I'm assuming this content is sitting in HTML
mrjason

19:08

yes
StommePoes

19:08

And well-structured HTML helps soooo much
deborahgu

19:08

In the US, every university dreads being on the cover of the Chronicle for a NFB /NAD suit.
StommePoes

19:08

headings for headings, lists for lists, linked labels etc
mrjason

19:09

perfect that is very good point to start with
zakim-robot

19:09

[monastic.panic, a11y] it s like black magic to get nvda to read out active descendants...
StommePoes

19:09

that's always the basis even if JS or js templates are generating the HTML
zakim-robot

19:09

[monastic.panic, a11y] so frustrating
StommePoes

19:10

after you've correctly-HTML'd as best you can, you start dealing with the stuff HTML can't do. Like when you're building wigets that aren't HTML, and this is when you have to start using ARIA. Like i pressing a button plops open a list if thingies people have to select.
StommePoes

19:10

names for things, names names names
StommePoes

19:11

you can always hide some names with CSS if there's some visual equivalent. or pair them together, that can often rock for cognative issues (sometimes)
StommePoes

19:11

poo, I just accidentally ctrl-L'd. : ( sadpanda
StommePoes

19:14

monastic panic is this both FF and IE with NVDA?
deborahgu

19:15

mrjason, also, when I worked at a sakai university, one of the biggest problems was the LMS not helping profs and TAs make accessible content
mrjason

19:16

agreed
mrjason

19:16

Moodle has some plugins that do basic checks for content creating in HTML
deborahgu

19:16

an LMS is a CMS for very non-technical people, and the tool has to help. hang on, let me send you a presentation.
StommePoes

19:16

I need to learn more about moodle
mrjason

19:16

discussing how to apply that to files uploaded to thesystem
deborahgu

19:17

I really like what we did with images in dreamwidth
stuartlamour

19:25

I'll add to what @mrjason said by explaining its a session with open source contributors to the core cms, and the core developers themselves who are not particularly focused on accessibility.
deborahgu

19:25

mrjason: http://www.slideshare.net/dreamwidth/user-created-content-maintain-accessibility-in-content-you-dont-control or the variant http://www.slideshare.net/dreamwidth/user-created-content-maintain-accessibility-in-content-you-dont-control -- if you look at the first, definitely read the notes, which is where the main content is
stuartlamour

19:26

So as a wider question - if you had to give an introduction to accessibility best practice to a bunch of php developers - where is a good place to start them off?
deborahgu

19:26

but that's exactly what the presentation was about: building accessibility into LMS, CMS, and blog platform developers
deborahgu

19:26

and absolutely start by reading ATAG
zakim-robot

19:26

[monastic.panic, a11y] stommePoes, yeah, looking at chrome right now tho
deborahgu

19:26

http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/atag
stuartlamour

19:27

sorry @deborahgu my comment went out b4 your reply :)
deborahgu

19:27

np ;P
deborahgu

19:27

!
deborahgu

19:27

oops
deborahgu

19:27

that was supposed to be a ;)
deborahgu

19:27

no stuck out tongue
zakim-robot

19:27

[monastic.panic, a11y] bah its reading the first item out and then no more
zakim-robot

19:27

[monastic.panic, a11y] works on my other normal combobox
stuartlamour

19:27

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vY_Ry8J_jdw
zakim-robot

19:31

[Andres Lopez, a11y] Hi guys, wanted to know if there any preferences between Windows 10, 8.1, 8 or 7 when it comes to accessibility software. Also is there a particular Windows laptop that is preferred over others as well? (such as the Surface Pro 3)
zakim-robot

19:31

[Andres Lopez, a11y] trying to come up with a list of testing devices to use.
deborahgu

19:35

screen readers and speech rec are still flaky in Windows 10, although that will presumably be fixed relatively soon.
deborahgu

19:36

I know some people successfully use Windows 8 with both speech recognition and screen readers, though everyone that I know is still on 7. The web aim surveys don't break it down, unfortunately,
zakim-robot

19:45

[Andres Lopez, a11y] I see, speaking of the Web aim survey, it shows Chromevox was fairly unpopular as a screen reader, are there any alerting reasons as to why? Also what screen readers should definitely be tested on? I was thinking Jaws, Voice over and NVDA.
deborahgu

19:47

those are the right three, yes
deborahgu

19:48

there are arguments for and against actual screen reader testing. I try to test with at least one, myself. And hang on, I can get you the link as to why nobody blind uses chromevox; it's more accurate than my short summary.
deborahgu

19:49

here, from marco zehe:
deborahgu

19:49

https://www.marcozehe.de/2013/09/07/why-accessibility-apis-matter/
zakim-robot

19:53

[Andres Lopez, a11y] Oh wow, thank you : )
deborahgu

19:54

no prob. (also, there's a simpler explanation, which is that anybody who needs a screen reader is already using one to navigate the computer, in order to get to the browser in the first place. Switching from the screen reader you were already using to a different one with a different control mechanism is something you are only going to do if you have a good reason; basically if the browser screen reader offers you functionality you don't have in the screen reader you were already in.)
zakim-robot

19:55

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] The folks using ChromeVox are most likely using it on ChromeOS, where that doesn't hold.
deborahgu

19:55

yeah, Alice, I was wondering if that was true. That was my thought.
deborahgu

19:55

I also wondered how many of them are like the people who use the speak-aloud plug-ins some companies put into their webpages: people with some level of vision impairment/dyslexia etc., who don't want to deal with a screen reader but want some help navigating the web.
zakim-robot

19:56

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] The extension is definitely not meant to be a replacement for your every day screen reader on other platforms
deborahgu

19:56

nod nod
zakim-robot

19:56

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] Ah good point
zakim-robot

19:57

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] The extension is somewhat useful as a "first pass" check for a sighted developer to see whether they're on the right track with their markup
zakim-robot

19:58

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] and I've certainly heard of folks using it on Linux where our native support has historically not been very good - not sure of the status of that right now, but it'd obviously be a vanishingly small (but no less important!) population
deborahgu

19:58

it makes for this very awkward conversation with testers, because on the one hand so many developers are using chrome and the developer tools, and they love doing everything in chrome, and there is chromevox right there. But on the other hand, my understanding is that chromevox deals with certain page elements so differently from the standards of the other three big SRs that sometimes there are incompatibilities between what the developers see with chromevox and what a voiceover user would get. Though that was a few years ago that I heard that, and I haven't heard anyone complaining about it since; maybe it's been redressed somewhat.
deborahgu

19:58

Alice++ for parenthetical <3
zakim-robot

19:58

[monastic.panic, a11y] siigh i have two widgets with almostthe same markup and the exact same aria, and the SR is reading hte listbox on one but not the other :confused:
zakim-robot

19:58

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] @monastic.panic: in Chrome?
zakim-robot

19:59

[monastic.panic, a11y] in all browser
zakim-robot

19:59

[monastic.panic, a11y] s
zakim-robot

19:59

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] @deborahgu I actually got into a11y because of a talk by a blind linux user (Jason White)
zakim-robot

19:59

[monastic.panic, a11y] it just reads the first item "blah 2 of 40"
zakim-robot

20:00

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] @deborahgu Also, the next version of ChromeVox (under very active development rn) will use the a11y tree
deborahgu

20:00

Orca users are pretty amazing. Almost all the Orca users I've ever met and that contributing back. :D
deborahgu

20:00

oh Alice yay!
zakim-robot

20:00

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] we added an API to make that possible
deborahgu @deborahgu throws confetti
zakim-robot

20:00

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] hahaha
zakim-robot

20:00

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] @monastic.panic: Are you able to inspect the a11y tree?
zakim-robot

20:00

[monastic.panic, a11y] not sure how to do that
zakim-robot

20:01

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] In chrome you can go to chrome://accessibility - terrible UI but I'm sure you'll figure it out (the terrible UI is my fault)
zakim-robot

20:01

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] if you're on a mac you can use the accessibility inspector, though it requires an install nowadays
zakim-robot

20:01

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] if you're on Windows TPG made a good tool, let me find it again...
zakim-robot

20:02

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/Accessibility/Conceptual/AccessibilityMacOSX/OSXAXTestingApps.html for the mac accessibility inspector
zakim-robot

20:02

[Andres Lopez, a11y] Sorry to go off topic a bit, any advice on where to recruit for accessibility testers? Maybe a particular site? I'm in the New York area.
zakim-robot

20:02

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/aviewer/ is the TPG tool
zakim-robot

20:03

[callumacrae, a11y] @drelopez: I posted on facebook and one of my friends knew someone who used a screen reader
zakim-robot

20:03

[monastic.panic, a11y] wow this chrome thing is just super unusable
zakim-robot

20:03

[callumacrae, a11y] I've also heard that you can contact RNIB and they can find you someone, but that's probably UK only
zakim-robot

20:03

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] @monastic.panic yeah it's ... not ideal. :confused:
zakim-robot

20:03

[monastic.panic, a11y] bah FF just doesn't work at all with the one that works in chrome
zakim-robot

20:03

[monastic.panic, a11y] this is why ppl don't do this
zakim-robot

20:04

[monastic.panic, a11y] 2 days, tweaking 3 widgets and they barely work
zakim-robot

20:04

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] yup :disappointed:
zakim-robot

20:04

[monastic.panic, a11y] in one Sr in one browser
deborahgu

20:04

jennison runs an a11yjobs list
deborahgu

20:05

let me find it, drelopez
deborahgu

20:05

https://twitter.com/a11yjobs
deborahgu

20:05

tweet it at Jennison
zakim-robot

20:05

[Andres Lopez, a11y] @callumacrae: Thanks for the advice, posted on Facebook and twitter so far. Getting attention, just wanted to see if there was a particular site
zakim-robot

20:05

[monastic.panic, a11y] is there a document somewhere about when SR will and will not read out active descendant?
zakim-robot

20:06

[monastic.panic, a11y] everyone says to jsut use it to manage focus and it doesn't work at all
MichielBijl

20:06

@deborahgu there is also a #jobs channel on the Slacker end of this room
zakim-robot

20:06

[callumacrae, a11y] @drelopez: I'd be pretty interested in hearing whether contacting RNIB (or whatever you have in your area) and asking if they could put you in touch with someone actually works: if you go down that route let me know :simple_smile:
deborahgu

20:06

cool
zakim-robot

20:08

[Andres Lopez, a11y] I'm going to try several options, I can let you know what works out best on my end @callumacrae , thanks for the tip deborahgu
zakim-robot

20:08

[callumacrae, a11y] cheers :simple_smile:
zakim-robot

20:09

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] @monastic.panic: I wish I knew more about activedescendant's quirks - I've heard similar things and I believe many give up and use the "roving tabindex" instead
zakim-robot

20:13

[monastic.panic, a11y] bah, yeah, that jsut wouldn't work in most of these cases tho :confused:
zakim-robot

20:13

[monastic.panic, a11y] where focus needs to stay in the combobox textbos for instance
zakim-robot

20:13

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] uurrghh yeah of course
powrsurg

20:13

all this talk in here today is making me feel bad about the chromebook I recently purchased for testing :-(
zakim-robot

20:13

[monastic.panic, a11y] i am so surprised there is so little written about how badly this works
deborahgu

20:13

don't feel bad :(
powrsurg

20:14

...
powrsurg

20:14

I don't know why, but this just reminded me. Does anyone do any type of testing for a11y on a blackberry device?
zakim-robot

20:14

[monastic.panic, a11y] hehe sorry jsut venting, been two days of just guessing at which roles need to be where only to get very little out of it
deborahgu

20:17

Alice shows the power of being a nice person in tech. Every time I'm about to go off on a rant about how Google is the worst and makes me cry, I have to stop for a second and then think, wait, there are these nice people that will make sad. And then I have to think, wait, it will make them sad because they are working really hard to make parts of Google accessible. And then I think, wait, parts of Google are way more accessible than they used to be, and it's because of those nice people I didn't want to make sad. And then I have to think about the issues fairly, which is always annoying when you are about to get your rant on.
zakim-robot

20:18

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] Aww that is so lovely @deborahgu - honestly I aspire to being a nice person in tech, so that means a lot to me
deborahgu

20:19

you succeed <3
zakim-robot

20:20

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] Though I would like to point out that I deserve much less credit than you seem to give me. I'm chatty here and on Twitter but there are plenty of folks working very hard (like Laura in that CNN article - she is on my team and she's a star) who have more of a hand in making it an org-wide priority
deborahgu

20:21

heh. it's true, it mostly goes along with the people I have seen give presentations and tutorials and such.
zakim-robot

20:21

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] And that definitely is happening - the article mentioned every new engineer doing a11y training and that is true
deborahgu

20:21

I am so incredibly excited about that, I have to say.
zakim-robot

20:21

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] :simple_smile: me too
deborahgu

20:21

Because now I work in an office which is a Google docs / Gmail shop and there are the things I can do and the things I... Can't.
zakim-robot

20:21

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] :disappointed:
zakim-robot

20:22

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] What affordances do you need which don't work, out of curiosity?
deborahgu

20:24

huh, trying to think of them off hand. docs has fixed this thing that prevented me from navigating to links and around comments in documents, I believe. I still have a lot of trouble in sheets and slides. Some of the things are just going to be harder to deal with: I have a tendency to write in word because word is select-and-say enabled in NaturallySpeaking, which is really nice, and then I convert to docs when I'm done with the main draft. I know that in some cases Nuance has worked with Google, but for reasons unclear to me NaturallySpeaking 12 seems to have more direct plug-ins with Gmail then NaturallySpeaking 13 does.
deborahgu

20:25

There are at least a few things that I have had trouble doing by voice/keyboard in the Gmail interface, and I will try to remember what they are and tell you. Cause it's been difficult I actually have a tendency to just read my email in alpine and only go to the Gmail interface if there's something unavoidable. Which is okay, because I actually like Alpine, but it is a little ridiculous.
deborahgu

20:26

New drive is definitely better for me than the old drive was, as far as keyboard navigation.
deborahgu

20:26

And then chrome is just almost a black box, sadly. Chrome without a mouse is really tricky.
deborahgu

20:26

So, like I said, I can see it getting better all the time.
zakim-robot

20:31

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] What are some things you can't do in Chrome? I'd like to see if we have bugs open already
zakim-robot

20:31

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] And yeah, I've heard there's a lot of difficulty with Dragon :confused:
stevefaulkner

20:37

A lot of the difficulty with dragon is that it does not make use of much of the accessibility interfaces built in to browsers
deborahgu

20:37

okay, so to start I'm bringing up chrome with the Dragon: "start Google Chrome". And then I want to do anything, so I want to figure out how to get a menu bar at the top, because then I can dictate the names of the menus. I assume that there is some way for me to put a menu bar on the top by going to that hamburger menu, so I try to figure out how to get to the hamburger menu with the keyboard, because there's not going to be a voice command for it that I know yet. I try variants on finding various keys to space, arrow, enter, etc. I think maybe I can navigate there from the address bar, so I try "control L" to get to the address bar -- that works like I expect it to, hooray! -- and now I tried tabbing to the hamburger menu. That still doesn't work, so finally I give up and voice control the mouse.
deborahgu

20:38

stevefaulkner: this is the application itself, though, not the interaction with the webpages.
deborahgu

20:39

So okay, I get to the hamburger menu, and good, I can arrow down to settings. Now I'm in the settings menu, and I realize with some trial and error that I can tab through it, but I can't actually see the focus on a lot of those things I'm tabbing through -- the focus is only visible on the places where there is underlined blue text, e.g. "learn more." So at first I think tabbing doesn't work.
zakim-robot

20:39

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] @deborahgu I can get to the hamburger menu by tabbing from the address bar - the gross part is that the next focusable element is the bookmark star which doesn't have a focus style
zakim-robot

20:40

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] then it focuses any extension icons which also don't have a focus stule
zakim-robot

20:40

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] then_ it focuses the hamburger menu, which _does have a focus style
deborahgu

20:40

huh, alice, when I try I go straight from the address bar to the tabable elements in the page. Maybe it's Windows versus OS X?
zakim-robot

20:40

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] @deborahgu Oh yeah, could totally be that
deborahgu

20:40

hmm
zakim-robot

20:41

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] And yeah - the focus styles on the settings page are very subtle
zakim-robot

20:42

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] e.g. when focus is on a button, the black outline changes to blue - it's very hard to spot
deborahgu

20:42

anyway, I see that there is "show advanced settings" so I hope that that is either using the basic Windows APIs or the basic webpage APIs. I try "click show advanced settings", and that doesn't do anything, so it must not be using the Windows functionality. But then I try "click link", which would work on any webpage, because I have the Dragon extension installed, and that doesn't do anything either. So it's neither a standard link nor a Windows API link. I can tab to it, though, so I get to it that way.
deborahgu

20:42

(Oh, you are right! It's very faint, but I do see it.)
zakim-robot

20:43

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] Oh I see what's happening with the "show advanced settings" "link"
zakim-robot

20:44

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] it's an <a> without an href so it is not exposed as a link
deborahgu

20:44

anyway I do a lot of that navigation, and I can't find any way to make a menu bar on the top, which I guess is a legitimate design choice but does make my life more difficult. (Although it would only help if it talks to the Windows APIs and lets me dictate the names of the menus, or visibly exposes an underlined character to let me know that, e.g., alt+s would be settings.) But then when I see "add additional accessibility features" and get all excited, and I realize it is just some accessibility tag add-ons, that was also fairly disappointing. I mean, it's really great that you call those out. But since I was looking for specific features and didn't find them, it was kind of a surprise.
zakim-robot

20:44

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] :angry:
deborahgu

20:44

oh!
deborahgu

20:44

Alice, ILU so much right now, I can't even.
zakim-robot

20:45

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] Ahhh don't love me until we get this fixed!
zakim-robot

20:45

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] What do you want the menu bar for specifically?
deborahgu

20:48

the easiest way to get to a command is just to dictate its name. For anything that I use all the time, in my Firefox, I've actually just made a button bar with those items named, or I've created voice macros or keyboard macros to get to them. But for items I don't use all the time, I don't remember necessarily what they are called, and I want to be able to get them very quickly. So, for example, I can't remember if it's Firefox add-ons, or Firefox extensions, or what. But I do remember that it's in the tools menu, so I just say "tools", wait a few microseconds, read and parse what the menu item is, and then say "add-ons". A menubar isn't necessarily the only way to get at that functionality, but it's the one I'm used you. But a hamburger menu whose name I can't remember means I will always need to tab to it to get to the various settings.
deborahgu

20:48

Although to be fair there are a lot fewer options, so maybe it just needs the option of being a visible name, I don't know. :-)
deborahgu

20:49

And again, that only works if chrome uses the Windows accessibility API for the application itself, which right now it might not actually be doing.
deborahgu

20:50

the really nice thing about Dragon and a native Windows app is that you can usually just dictate the names of menus, buttons, dialogs, etc. It made me cranky when Firefox switched from application-dialog-settings tab to HTML-in-the-application-settings tab (like chrome has), because NaturallySpeaking is so much more powerful with anything native.
deborahgu

20:51

which does get back to stevefaulkner point, although it is much better than it used to be
zakim-robot

20:51

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] A couple of workarounds come to mind - though I agree these shouldn't be necessary
zakim-robot

20:51

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] 1) you can get to most "chrome" pages using a URL, e.g. "chrome://history" or "chrome://settings"
zakim-robot

20:52

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] chrome://extensions for extensions, chrome://downloads for downloads, etc
zakim-robot

20:52

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] You could potentially make bookmarks to these pages and show a bookmarks bar
zakim-robot

20:53

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] Hm actually that's the only idea I have :simple_smile:
zakim-robot

20:53

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] The tooltip for the hamburger menu says "customize and control google chrome" which is ???
deborahgu

20:54

pooh that didn't work. Although you are totally right, I can make macros/bookmarks for the pages I need.
zakim-robot

20:54

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] Its label according to mac a11y inspector is "Chrome"
deborahgu

20:55

that worked!
zakim-robot

20:55

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] but I'm not sure where that comes from
zakim-robot

20:55

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] oh!!
deborahgu

20:55

my hero
zakim-robot

20:55

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] Yeah I can see why you wouldn't remember that
deborahgu

20:55

haha. Still, I wonder if there's a designer-friendly way to expose that to people who need to see it.
zakim-robot

20:56

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] And can you access "back" "forward" "reload" "home" and "new tab" by name?
deborahgu

20:56

I wonder if the "people don't see hamburger menus on desktop webpages" usability tests extend to places where the hamburger menu is built-in to the application as an application menu, e.g. Firefox and chrome.
deborahgu

20:57

(BTW I'm not implying anything by not capitalizing chrome, thatis all on Dragon.)
deborahgu

20:58

wow, yes. Or rather, I can get to back, forward, reload, and new tab. "Home" apparently sounds a little bit too much like "chrome", and "chrome" always wins.
deborahgu

20:58

You know I never thought about using the Windows accessibility inspector to figure out what controls are called. I know it's not a generalizable fix, but it would still make my life easier if I start doing this two applications I can't control.
zakim-robot

20:58

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] haha facepalm
zakim-robot

20:58

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] Ok - I'm going to follow up on the subtle focus styles and the link role thing
deborahgu

20:59

thank you. I promise that I will not stop thinking of you as a hero; I will just start thinking of your various team members I don't know about as heroes.
zakim-robot

20:59

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] lol ok
zakim-robot

21:10

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] Bug for the "advanced settings" thing https://crbug.com/517598
deborahgu

21:10

woot
deborahgu

21:12

it would be cool if (in people's copious free time) y'all did an article or something about the various accessibility efforts at El Goog. Not a one off human interest, like that CNN article, but one for people who are actually in the field, aimed at both developers and accessibility people, about how accessibility is integrated at Google, e.g. your team, and the android team, and all of the various teams, as well as the new training.
deborahgu

21:13

There have been some very no-content articles about the new training everyone gets, and I have been wondering what that looks like. (So has the rest of my company, who I think are interested in whether what you do is scalable down to a smaller, less rich company)
zakim-robot

21:13

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] That's a great point.
deborahgu

21:13

I mean, because everyone has the copious free time to write an article. :P
zakim-robot

21:16

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] haha
zakim-robot

21:17

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] Not Google, but I did see an interesting talk from the author of http://www.openinclusion.com/book/ at CSUN
zakim-robot

21:18

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] He made a lot of the same points as you regarding the importance of a11y being an organisational value rather than being pushed by "heroes"
deborahgu

21:19

oh cool.
deborahgu

21:21

the problem with heroes -- and I understand it is a loaded word; that's been my role at my last several jobs, while never actually being my job -- is that they end up ridiculously hitting developers and designers with a stick that annoys the developers and designers, or fixing it themselves while never letting the developers and designers learn anything. And then they leave, and if they leave... Well.
deborahgu

21:22

And design has to be an organizational value, because designers win pretty much every disagreement about how something should look, in my experience. If designers want low contrast, they're going to get low contrast, and no accessibility people are going to be allowed to fix it after the fact. So that really has to be at the highest level.
zakim-robot

22:14

[stevenlambert, a11y] Is there a good place to get statistics on user disabilities (like color blind, what types, etc.)? disabilitystatistics.org has some, but they’re 2 years old and don’t provide the level of details into the different categories of disabilities
zakim-robot

00:04

[Katy Moe, a11y] @deborahgu it’s definitely important to get buy-in by the ‘pre-designers’ - the business and brand guys (in a product company)
zakim-robot

00:05

[Katy Moe, a11y] the way accessibility works at my company is that we have one person leading the effort, and key people in each discipline forming a cross-company interest group
zakim-robot

00:05

[Katy Moe, a11y] but I’ve tried to design the process so that everyone is accountable for making what they design/build accessible
zakim-robot

00:49

[tim, a11y] Completely agree with @katy about the cross-company interest. Selling accessibility in is hard. Another thought I’ve had on this debate with other UX/design/developers is by approaching accessibility as being an integral part of the job, not a supplemental skill set or mindset, for designers, developers, business and product owners. Doing it this way could see a very different set of products and business results come out.
zakim-robot

00:53

[Katy Moe, a11y] yes, I often think of my job as working to make myself obsolete - in the future we won’t even think of accessibility as separate from UX in general!
zakim-robot

00:53

[tim, a11y] @deborahgu - agree and see where you are coming from. I wrote a recent article on how we should stop blaming designers and developers - https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/i-hate-word-accessibility-arent-we-designing-humans-tim-daines

Gitter Channel Archive 6th of August 2015

A11ySlackers chat log 5th of August 2015 - http://w3c.github.io/a11ySlackers/archives/050815.html