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A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 3rd of December 2015

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. zakim-robot
    Dec 03 00:21
    [fstorr] Anyway. Back to my “putting the focus on the <h1> thing to bypass the header and navigation”: I’m going to suggest that, yes, it meets 2.4.1, but it’s essentially the same as auto-focussing on the search box on a page because the designer/developer has made the assumption that that’s what all users will obviously be doing on that page. A much better approach would be to either have a skip link, consistently use the <main> element correctly or consistently use one <h1> element at the the beginning of the page’s content as per H69 (http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20150226/H69)
  2. jnurthen
    Dec 03 00:23
    @fstorr the thing is that H69 and <main> do nothing for a keyboard user. This seems like a pretty good approach really. If the user wants the navigation elements in the page it is a pretty simple keypress (Alt+D) to move back to the browser address bar and then get to the top of the page from there
  3. fstorr
    Dec 03 00:31
    @jnurthen Apart from the fact that you're making a presumption of what someone is wanting to do with a page (or in this case, every page on a site). You can make the same argument that adding a skip link is a pretty simple technique to get access to the content or marking up the site's navigation correctly also gives easy access to that. Those techniques don't make an assumption on what the user wants to do.
  4. zakim-robot
    Dec 03 02:00
    [cordelia] The more I think about it, the more the focus-on-h1 approach grows on me. It does make the assumption that you always want to be in the main content, but if you want to go to the navigation before that content, isn’t it roughly the same number of key events? Just using Shift+Tab instead of Tab?
  5. zakim-robot
    07:06
    [bdougherty] http://solid.buzzfeed.com/buttons.html yet another css library that uses links for buttons :disappointed:
  6. garcialo
    07:06
    Ah, I saw that and was wondering, but hadn't had a chance to look at it.
  7. garcialo
    07:11
    @cordelia @jnurthen @fstorr When doing the "focus-on-h1" is this an autofocus or a .focus()? Also, are instructions being provided to let the user know to go backwards? Also is there a special focus indication provided on the h1?
  8. MichielBijl
    07:12
    This feels extremely hack if you ask me.
  9. MichielBijl
    07:13
    AT/browser with proper landmark navigation support should solve solve this.
  10. garcialo
    07:13
    Skip links are a hack. =p
  11. MichielBijl
    07:13
    Those too
  12. garcialo
    07:14
    But there is the case of sighted keyboard-only users.
  13. MichielBijl
    07:15
    That's where browser support comes in
  14. MichielBijl
    07:15
    There is a bug listing for Firefox on this
  15. garcialo
    07:21
    Agreed.
  16. garcialo
    07:22
    But, that's just one browser of many that don't have navigation by headings/landmarks. People are needing to bypass repetitive navigation now.
  17. StommePoes
    07:32
    github does that, it's annoying as f*ck
  18. StommePoes
    07:32
    It focusses on the sign up form
  19. StommePoes
    07:33
    so I have to back-tab all the way to sign in
  20. StommePoes
    07:33
    the worst thing about it is really that I don't expect it, I always make the mistake of trying to tab forward into to before realising I'm supposed to go backwards
  21. StommePoes
    07:33
    but maybe I'm an unusuallystupid user
  22. MichielBijl
    07:34

    but maybe I'm an unusuallystupid user

    Meh, could say the same for me.

  23. garcialo
    07:34
    Everyone is stupid in their particularly unusual way.
  24. MichielBijl
    07:52
    For those wondering, you pronounce my name like “Me-hard G-Italian il” my surname sounds like “ Bell”.
  25. MichielBijl
    07:53
    That is the worst explanation ever, but I did find it sort of funny.
  26. zakim-robot
    07:55
    [jitendra] India officially has 27 million disabled
  27. MichielBijl
    07:57
    Good thing you have the new #a11y program
  28. garcialo
    07:57
    with speed set to slowest?
  29. garcialo
    07:58
    er...mistell
  30. MichielBijl
    08:27
    Apparently, today is #ADayForAll.
  31. zakim-robot
    12:15
    [fstorr] @garcialo: “focus on h1”: not sure what an autofocus is, but do know .focus(). Trying to poke around in a lot of JS files to find out more. There are no instructions provided to the user that this has happened and that there’s content above.
  32. zakim-robot
    12:17
    [jitendra] Welcome @smashingmag
  33. zakim-robot
    12:24
    [fstorr] @garcialo: It’s not an autofocus attribute on the <h1> so it must be JavaScript.
  34. zakim-robot
    13:58
    [smashingmag] Thank you so much for having me!
  35. zakim-robot
    14:01
    [charlotteis] :wave:
  36. zakim-robot
    14:04
    [car] Welcome!
  37. MichielBijl @MichielBijl waves at @smashingmag
  38. zakim-robot
    17:49
    [marcysutton] Hi @smashingmag!! Pleased to see you join us!
  39. MichielBijl
    17:57
    @StommePoes in your results you put “spelled as ‘l-o-v-e’”. Is that spoken different than “spelled as ‘love’”? Want to make the results uniform :)
  40. MichielBijl
    17:58
    @StommePoes same for “Icon is spoken as ‘love, graphic’” and “Icon is spoken as ‘love graphic’” (missing comma).
  41. StommePoes
    17:58
    I wasn't sure what you meant, I heard letter by letter
  42. StommePoes
    17:59
    yeah there's no pause
  43. StommePoes
    17:59
    I didn't know if you heard a pause
  44. MichielBijl
    17:59
    ah okay, that is fine
  45. StommePoes
    17:59
    but it sounds to me like two words running together
  46. StommePoes
    17:59
    was testing the others
  47. MichielBijl
    17:59
    I did with VoiceOver
  48. StommePoes
    17:59
    book + shop same problem in JAWS/IE where book is lost
  49. StommePoes
    17:59
    so only hear and spell shop
  50. MichielBijl
    17:59
    =(
  51. StommePoes
    18:00
    also additional issue with github, no visible text for alternative to sighted stupids-like-me-who-often-have-no-clue-what-weirdo-icons-mean
  52. MichielBijl
    18:00
    Yeah I meant letter by letter too, hence I put in the word spelled.
  53. StommePoes
    18:00
    you can change it to be consistent
  54. StommePoes
    18:00
    I didn't hear VO
  55. StommePoes
    18:01
    also caries->carries
  56. StommePoes
    18:01
    first test
  57. MichielBijl
    18:01
    I'll fix that
  58. MichielBijl
    18:02
    I'll also change all the spelled “love” to “l-o-v-e”; seems that is clearer
  59. StommePoes
    18:02
    whenever I get to updating the other tests I might add an inline fail colour or class or something
  60. StommePoes
    18:02
    yeah ok
  61. MichielBijl
    18:02
    Oh I have to look at chaals' thing.
  62. StommePoes
    18:03
    Chaals adds text with the css
  63. StommePoes
    18:03
    but we can have a new first column
  64. StommePoes
    18:03
    more clear
  65. MichielBijl
    18:03
    True
  66. MichielBijl
    18:04
    Icon in first column?
  67. MichielBijl
    18:04
    Set alt to fails/works or something?
  68. StommePoes
    18:05
    Bleh. "Passes" or "Fails" or "Buggy"
  69. StommePoes
    18:05
    gewoon tekst
  70. MichielBijl
    18:05
    Sounds good
  71. MichielBijl
    18:06
    Pushed typo / results fix
  72. MichielBijl
    18:09
    @StommePoes maybe you can also help with MichielBijl/font-awesome#17
  73. LjWatson
    18:20
    Is anyone who uses speech recognition around to try a quick test for me?
  74. MichielBijl
    18:21
    @jnurthen are you here?
  75. zakim-robot
    18:33
    [dylanb] @ljwatson: I might be able to help
  76. LjWatson
    18:34
    Thanks @DylanB I'm trying to find out whether this disclosure widget will work with speech rec https://govuk-accessibility.herokuapp.com/tests/disclosure
  77. LjWatson
    18:34
    It's based on details/summary with ARIA. Not convinced it's workable for speech rec users though.
  78. dylanb
    18:38
    ok, let me see whether Dragon recognizes me today :-)
  79. MichielBijl
    18:38
    @LjWatson, @powrsurg was working on something with getMedia; not sure if that helps.
  80. powrsurg
    18:41
    what I had was something I put together yesterday where I got SpeechRecognition as per the Web Speech API working in Chrome on desktop, but had issues on Android. I haven't yet put together a simple test script that I'm in a spot that can easily share it at the moment =/
  81. LjWatson
    18:42
    Would be interested to see whatever you come up with
  82. powrsurg
    18:42
    my plan was to put a test page that had 3 buttons (start recording, stop recording, play recording) and a text area that showed the translated text
  83. LjWatson
    18:43
    The thing I'm looking at is disclosure widgets based on details/summary though. Not sure it's the same thing you're looking at?
  84. dylanb
    18:43
    @LjWatson oh dear, I got the dreaded "Working on updates..." message from Windows
  85. powrsurg
    18:44
    my plan was to work on that yesterday but I was shifted to an immediate project and then had xmas shopping stuff to do last night (and tonight and tomorrow)
  86. LjWatson
    18:44
    @DylanB NP. If you get a couple of mins at any point to take a look, could you ping me whatever you find?
  87. dylanb
    18:44
    it says not to turn it off but it does not say not to throw it out of the window
  88. LjWatson @LjWatson grins.
  89. MichielBijl @MichielBijl laughs
  90. LjWatson
    18:44
    Unless you're using a VM it shouldn't take too long to update.
  91. MichielBijl @MichielBijl has to mute during calls if he is in here
  92. MichielBijl
    18:48
    @LjWatson any news on the GitHub html thing?
  93. LjWatson
    18:48
    Not yet.
  94. MichielBijl
    18:49
    Okay, thank you.
  95. MichielBijl
    18:49
    Just got access to w3c git :) Makes things a lot easier.
  96. zakim-robot
    18:53
    [callumacrae] What's an example of an accessibility testing tool?
  97. powrsurg
    18:53
    @callumacrae aXe
  98. zakim-robot
    18:56
    [karlgroves] @callumacrae your keyboard
  99. zakim-robot
    18:57
    [callumacrae] for context, I'm writing an article trying to get people to test using screenreaders instead of using a tool :stuck_out_tongue:
  100. MichielBijl
    18:57
    @callumacrae phones with SR's
  101. zakim-robot
    18:58
    [karlgroves] I’d rather that people new to accessibility not test using screen readers.
  102. zakim-robot
    18:59
    [callumacrae] I'm also going to explain how to use a screen reader!
  103. powrsurg
    18:59
  104. zakim-robot
    19:04

    [karlgroves] > I'm also going to explain how to use a screen reader!

    That would be useful. Esp. if you were to show specific approaches to testing in terms of what to expect and what failures look (sound?) like.

  105. MichielBijl
    19:05
    @karlgroves: what would you prefer they test with?
  106. MichielBijl
    19:06
    Start with basic keyboard only navigation?
  107. MichielBijl
    19:06
    That's how I started anyway.
  108. zakim-robot
    19:06
    [karlgroves] For manual testing, first step would be keyboard-only
  109. zakim-robot
    19:06
    [karlgroves] I have a focus bookmarklet I use, too. So I can see where focus actually is.
  110. MichielBijl
    19:07
    Resets all outlines?
  111. zakim-robot
    19:07
    [karlgroves] Yeah. Gives a Nice red outline.
  112. MichielBijl
    19:08
    Cool! Care to share, because that is a must have!
  113. zakim-robot
    19:08
    [karlgroves] Yeah. I have it in a Gist. BRB
  114. MichielBijl
    19:08
    And I don't know the first thing about making bookmarklets.
  115. zakim-robot
    19:10
    [karlgroves] Props to Jeff Smith @ Simply Accessible for that one. He shared it with me and I put it in a Gist so I can always get to it
  116. MichielBijl
    19:11
    Awesome :D Thank you!
  117. MichielBijl
    19:11
    And thank him.
  118. MichielBijl
    19:12
    @StommePoes will want this too.
  119. zakim-robot
    19:12
    [callumacrae] I'm not too sure about specific approaches actual blind people take because I'm sighted and my only experiences with screen readers have been testing, but I think I've picked up a few things
  120. zakim-robot
    19:12
    [callumacrae] I'm going to show just reading everything, and then browsing by headings, and then browsing by links / form elements
  121. MichielBijl
    19:13
    I sometimes use VoiceOver muted and use the web rotor just for that.
  122. zakim-robot
    19:13
    [dna] @karlgroves: do you have advice for sighted users who are new to screen readers and interested in using screen readers for testing?
  123. MichielBijl
    19:13
    Browsers should have keyboard support for that stuff…
  124. zakim-robot
    19:13
    [callumacrae] @dna: Haha I'm writing an article on exactly that!
  125. zakim-robot
    19:14
    [dna] oh, boom
  126. zakim-robot
    19:14
    [callumacrae] Specifically for devs who want to test their websites
  127. zakim-robot
    19:14

    [karlgroves] @collumacrae That’s kind of the challenge, right? I’ve been doing testing for > a decade and I still have to use cheat sheets to use screen readers.

    @dna I think @michiel got it right. I use VO and the web rotor pretty often. I also do use JAWS and NVDA but they’re just for spot checking.

    Didn

  128. dylanb
    19:14
    @LjWatson Does not work well with Dragon 12.5
  129. zakim-robot
    19:15
  130. dylanb
    19:15
    I do not have 13 installed
  131. zakim-robot
    19:15
    [dna] ah great, thank you
  132. dylanb
    19:15
    @LjWatson I also got some Americans to try to see whether Dragon was being racist
  133. dylanb
    19:15
    it was not :-)
  134. dylanb
    19:16
    Even the MouseGrid did not work consistently
  135. zakim-robot
    19:16
    [dna] is the VO/web rotor choice one of convenience? assuming you're doing dev on a mac, which may or may not be true
  136. dylanb
    19:16
    I could get it to open sometimes and then not close, or close and then not open
  137. zakim-robot
    19:17

    [karlgroves] @callumacrae: I didn’t mean to dissuade you by posting that WebAIM article. You may have an interesting perspective.

    For instance, a really quick way to check alt attributes is to use the rotor to list all images. Does each one make sense? See any weird stuff like filenames?

  138. zakim-robot
    19:17
    [dna] i wanted to use JAWS because it was the highest cited sr in the most recent webaim screen reader survey results
  139. zakim-robot
    19:17
    [karlgroves] Another good one is to pull up the list of buttons.
  140. zakim-robot
    19:18
    [callumacrae] I didn't know you could use the web rotor to list images
  141. zakim-robot
    19:18
    [dna] and didn't know if VO was a sufficient substitute
  142. zakim-robot
    19:18
    [karlgroves] @dna that’s a good point, esp. because VO has its “quirks”, to put it politely
  143. StommePoes
    19:18
    testing SRs is like testing browsers
  144. zakim-robot
    19:18
    [callumacrae] "ADD TO BASKET" is pronounced "A.D.D. to basket" and I couldn't persuade them to let me change the case
  145. zakim-robot
    19:18
    [callumacrae] But apparently screen reader users are used to it
  146. zakim-robot
    19:20
    [karlgroves] @dna VO is a sufficient substitute if you don’t have the $$$ for a JAWS license.
  147. zakim-robot
    19:20
    [dylanb] @karlgroves: hey where have you been?
  148. zakim-robot
    19:21
    [karlgroves] @dylanb: got ridiculously busy and decided to reduce distractions. Game back here to find someone. Got sucked back in.
  149. zakim-robot
    19:21
    [dylanb] welcome back
  150. zakim-robot
    19:21
    [karlgroves] thanks
  151. zakim-robot
    19:22
    [fstorr] insert relevant Pacino clip from the Godfather
  152. MichielBijl
    19:22
    @callumacrae <button><span>Add</span> to basket</button> & button span { text-transform: uppercase; } ?
  153. StommePoes
    19:23
    @MichielBijl so it can sound different to a user from every other ecommerce add to basket button they ever encounter?
  154. zakim-robot
    19:24
    [karlgroves] Actually, uppercase is uppercase, sadly. Its one of the few times screenreaders honor CSS (thanks, WebKit!)
  155. MichielBijl
    19:24
    Are all buttons marked up as <button>ADD to basket</button>? Is that what you mean?
  156. MichielBijl
    19:25
    Argh
  157. zakim-robot
    19:25
    [callumacrae] <button>Add to basket</button>, uppercased using CSS
  158. zakim-robot
    19:25
    [callumacrae] It's absolutely a bug somewhere, but apparently it's not going to be changed any time soon
  159. MichielBijl
    19:25
    Welcome to the world of a11y…
  160. zakim-robot
    19:25

    [karlgroves] > It's absolutely a bug somewhere,

    Yeah, the browser

  161. zakim-robot
    19:25
    [callumacrae] Happens in both Chrome and Safari
  162. MichielBijl @MichielBijl welcomes himself
  163. zakim-robot
    19:26

    [karlgroves] > Happens in both Chrome and Safari

    Legacy Webkit crap is doing it.

  164. garcialo
    19:39
    @LjWatson I've got Dragon 13; if you want, I can try it out, but it might take me a while busier day today. =(
  165. StommePoes
    19:42
    Man, I want a Dragon
  166. zakim-robot
    19:42
    [fstorr] You don’t want the hassle of training a Dragon
  167. StommePoes
    19:43
    No that's part of the fun
  168. StommePoes
    19:43
    met a lady on the bus when leaving from CSUN, she said she didn't train it much, worked for her out of the box better than she expected
  169. StommePoes
    19:43
    Anyway, they say about a month
  170. StommePoes
    19:44
    I think I'll just buy one anyway in Januari
  171. zakim-robot
    19:51
    [fstorr] A month of full-on usage? That’ll explain why it’s nothing but frustration for me then.
  172. StommePoes
    19:57
    Not sure what they mean with "month"
  173. StommePoes
    19:58
    a mythical man month
  174. dylanb
    20:00
    @LjWatson btw - here is the discussion on the issue that I raised re: Shadow DOM w3c/webcomponents#100
  175. zakim-robot
    20:03
    [jelbourn] Does anyone have an idea why the polymer aria-live announcer would use a 100ms delay before announcing anything?
    https://github.com/PolymerElements/iron-a11y-announcer/blob/master/iron-a11y-announcer.html#L101
  176. StommePoes
    20:08
    They might not be doing it for the delay, but to ensure this is who they think it is
  177. zakim-robot
    20:18
    [marcysutton] @alice might know, but it might just be waiting to counter bugginess with live regions when processes are busy
  178. zakim-robot
    20:44
    [cordelia] @callumacrae: @garcialo just did a great talk on accessibility test tools: http://garcialo.com/tools/presentation
  179. zakim-robot
    20:46
    [cordelia] Like @karlgroves, I use the web rotor a lot to do really basic checks for things like images without alts. On Mac, I went to VoiceOver Settings > Web > Web Rotor and checked all the boxes … It’s a lot of stuff but when I’m developing a site, it’s helpful to consult all those things in the web rotor and see what isn’t clear.
  180. zakim-robot
    20:53
    [fstorr] Same here. The web rotor is my go to for quick testing and to show others what we mean about things like links making sense out of context.
  181. zakim-robot
    20:59
    [alice] @cdata: Are you about to help with https://web-a11y.slack.com/archives/general/p1449173001002401 ?
  182. zakim-robot
    21:56
    [jelbourn] I tried pinging him a while ago here and on Twitter but was never able to get in touch
  183. zakim-robot
    21:59
    [jelbourn] And then that moment when I realize we work at the same company...
  184. jnurthen
    22:03
    @LjWatson I would expect your details/summary thing to work fine with Dragon 13. I'll test it tonight or tomorrow. I have Dragon 13 here but not my microphone. I would NOT expect it to work in 12.5 as 13 was the first version to have any aria support
  185. zakim-robot
    23:30
    [alice] @jelbourn: lol