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A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 23rd of December 2015

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. MichielBijl
    07:24
    Thank you @jareds, that is valuable information :-)
  2. stevefaulkner
    09:02
    @MichielBijl re <error> this may be helpful http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ExtensionHowTo
  3. MichielBijl
    09:03
    @stevefaulkner thank you!
  4. stevefaulkner
    09:06
    @MichielBijl suggest starting with documenting use cases
  5. MichielBijl
    09:06
    That would probably be better yes. You must have cringed reading that proposal thing :P
  6. MichielBijl
    09:07
    But research and collecting data is definitely the way to go.
  7. stevefaulkner
    09:07
    nah, just been through it more than once check out use cases for main http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/User:Sfaulkne/main-usecases#Introduction
  8. stevefaulkner
    09:10
    lots of (historical) HTML5 change proposals here http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals
  9. MichielBijl
    09:12
    Interesting, have added both to my resources list and will read them, thank you =)
  10. stevefaulkner
    09:15
    also suggest raising on WICG list/ discourse as that is where you will get feedback from browser implementers, if they are not on board then...
  11. stevefaulkner
    09:15
    http://discourse.wicg.io/
  12. MichielBijl
    09:16
    Thought about that too, but would like to have a more concrete proposal than just “we could really use an error element”
  13. MichielBijl
    09:16
    Will post it there once I have a bit more data.
  14. stevefaulkner
    09:17
    yes, much better to couch in terms of 'need a way to do X' rather than 'need an element to do x'
  15. stevefaulkner
    09:17
    cart before horse and all that
  16. MichielBijl
    09:18
    =)
  17. MichielBijl
    18:03
    Does anybody here know anything about the accessibility of Google Hangouts? Especially about the chat feature?
  18. MichielBijl
    18:21 
    <fieldset aria-labelledby="legend-1">         <p id="legend-1">Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet.</p>

    Equals: 

    <fieldset>         <legend>Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet.</legend>

    Right?

  19. MichielBijl @MichielBijl is sick of legend styles…
  20. garcialo
    18:23
    Hmmm...that would be interesting to test out.
  21. garcialo
    18:23
    No time now, maybe this evening I'll check it out and let you know.
  22. MichielBijl
    18:24
    Cool, thanks
  23. garcialo
    18:24
    My thoughts are it won't quite work the same.
  24. zakim-robot
    18:45
    [rodneyrehm] @michiel: not that I think it matters much to your legend example, but: http://jsbin.com/tibumivuze/edit?html,js,output
  25. MichielBijl
    18:57
    Interesting, didn't know that.
  26. MichielBijl
    18:58
    Normally I don't have an issue with legend styles. I have to create a responsive rating matrix thing. Made more sense to me to use fieldsets for rows on desktop. Legends would essentially be the row headings.
  27. MichielBijl
    18:59
    This all works a treat with floats. But wanted to utilise flexbox for this (to be able to create zebra striped columns), but legends don't play nice with flexbox…
  28. MichielBijl
    19:00
    I'll post a code example when I'm not stuck in a train…
  29. MichielBijl
    19:39
    Crap, I forgot that fieldsets don't play nice with flexbox too…
  30. MichielBijl
    19:40
    Doesn't change much, because you can't put legends inside divs…
  31. MichielBijl
    19:54
    Code example: http://dir.agosto.nl/accessibility/rating-matrix/index.html
  32. MichielBijl
    19:56
    Layout switches at 40em/640px
  33. MichielBijl
    20:06
    I'm not sure about whether to use (ordered) lists here. That might be overdoing it.
  34. garcialo
    20:19
    Does the ordering matter? If so, then use an ordered list. ;)
  35. jonathantneal
    20:24
    Would love anybody’s feedback https://twitter.com/jon_neal/status/679759290303815680
  36. MichielBijl
    20:37
    @garcialo yes it is.
  37. MichielBijl
    20:38
    s/is/does
  38. jnurthen
    22:23
    can't you just use a div with role=group instead of fieldset?
  39. MichielBijl
    22:25
    Good point, that remove a layer.
  40. MichielBijl
    22:45
    @roneyrehm do you know of any AT that support this feature? Would be able to script something for that I guess, but not sure if it's worth the trouble.
  41. jnurthen
    22:46
    I hate fieldset/legend and try to avoid it wherever i can. normally just leads to headaches down the road
  42. MichielBijl
    23:06
    Switched it to role=group: http://michielbijl.github.io/responsive-rating-matrix/
  43. MichielBijl
    23:18
    I don't see any problems with this other than that I hide text from AT (the “column” headings on large screens).
  44. MichielBijl
    23:27
    @garcialo to come back to the ordering thing, I guess it doesn't really matter. The meaning of the content doesn't change. It's just that a different order wouldn't make sense.
  45. MichielBijl
    23:27
    The ol element represents a list of items, where the items have been intentionally ordered, such that changing the order would change the meaning of the document.
  46. MichielBijl
    23:27
    http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/grouping-content.html#the-ol-element
  47. MichielBijl
    23:28
    That is not the case. It would be illogical however.
  48. jnurthen
    23:32
    @MichielBijl I haven't read the whole thing but why don't you just use a data table for this?
  49. jnurthen
    23:32
    without having read everything this seems like a classic table
  50. MichielBijl
    23:32
    Because on small screens it's a list.
  51. jnurthen
    23:33
    but on big screens its a table ;)
  52. MichielBijl
    23:33
    So depending on where you start it's something else :P
  53. MichielBijl
    23:34
    Yes, but I don't think switching all the elements with JS to make a table on desktop is gonna work.
  54. MichielBijl
    23:34
    And the styling would probably remove the tableness of the thing on mobile and would thus screw with AT there.
  55. MichielBijl
    23:35
    If you move it below 640px you'll see what I mean.
  56. jnurthen
    23:36
    hmm - seems like it is going to be wrong whatever you do. I seem to recall gez published something about this once
  57. jnurthen
    23:36
    let me take a look
  58. MichielBijl
    23:37
    The only people I can think of that would be affected by this are visual screen reader users.
  59. MichielBijl
    23:37
    Or am I missing something?
  60. jnurthen
    23:38
    nope - can't find it
  61. jnurthen
    23:39
    no - screen reader users would lose the ability to navigate the table in an efficient way using table mode
  62. jnurthen
    23:39
    they would have to use much more inefficient lists/form field navigation.
  63. jnurthen
    23:40
    how about adding the new aria table roles when it is a table.....
  64. MichielBijl
    23:40
    Hmm
  65. jnurthen
    23:40
    .... wish you could add aria with css though, would make life much easier
  66. jnurthen
    23:40
    (but there is no support for role=table at the moment)
  67. MichielBijl
    23:41
    That doesn't really help =P
  68. jnurthen
    23:41
    LOL yeah
  69. MichielBijl
    23:41
    So a table would actually be preferred in this case?
  70. jnurthen
    23:41
    IMO it looks like a table so it should be a table
  71. MichielBijl
    23:41
    I can build the thing the other way around (start with table => make it a list).
  72. jnurthen
    23:42
    yeah - but depends if you are building mobile first or not ;)
  73. MichielBijl
    23:42
    Yeah, but that all depends on where you start. And everything I make is small screen/content first
  74. MichielBijl
    23:42
    Well, that sort of depends on the content.
  75. MichielBijl
    23:42
    In most cases it would be mobile first, but I can use whatever media query suits the case.
  76. MichielBijl
    23:43
    So @media { max-width: 40em } wouldn't be a problem.
  77. MichielBijl
    23:44
    I was working on a mail to Léonie. I'll include this, maybe she has some additional resources on this.