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A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 19th of January 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. zakim-robot
    08:47
    [crazycatlena] @stevef: Thank you very much, I'll use it :simple_smile:
  2. zakim-robot
    09:07
    [marcozehe] @kevinchao89: Yes we are aware and working on it.
  3. StommePoes
    10:11
    Hm, wondering if I should pester someone to add alt="" in an image where they've already added aria-hidden="true"
  4. StommePoes
    10:11
    I'm thinking "yeah" due to more support for empty alt than aria-anythings
  5. cr2a-graphique
    10:12
    wich software you use to test your code ?
    I use Tanaguru but maybe one are better ?
  6. cr2a-graphique
    10:12
    @StommePoes i used both
  7. StommePoes
    10:13
    tests are just manually written. I'm currently looking at someone's code in a PR, not merged yet.
  8. StommePoes
    10:14
    I actually don't have any AT versions with me at the moment who don't support aria-hidden, however I simply know the older ones and older browsers won't recognise it. We're currently coding to current-browser -1 but I don't necessarily want to wade into code like this later when someone decides "oh yeah we have a buttload of IE8 users let's fix our code"
  9. MichielBijl
    10:16
    @StommePoes I'd say go for it, what use is aria-hidden if you can do alt=""?
  10. MichielBijl
    10:17
    @cr2a-graphique first rule of ARIA is you do not use ARIA…
  11. MichielBijl
    10:17
    …if there is a native alternative.
  12. MichielBijl
    10:20

    WAI-ARIA is intended to be used as a supplement for native language semantics, not a replacement.

    https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#intro_ria_accessibility

  13. cr2a-graphique
    10:20
    alt="" to significate thats a decoration image, ok yes sure not ariahidden on an <img>
  14. cr2a-graphique
    10:20
    miss the question :)
  15. MichielBijl
    10:21
    :+1:
  16. cr2a-graphique
    10:22
    @MichielBijl wich soft you use to test your accessibility code ?
  17. MichielBijl
    10:22
    As for you code test question: I use Chrome Developer Tools Accessibility plugin, W3C's Nu Validator, peer review, and common sense.
  18. cr2a-graphique
    10:22
    thank a lot @MichielBijl
  19. MichielBijl
    10:22
    And want to start using @karlgroves' excellent Tenon service once I can pay for that =P
  20. zakim-robot
    10:23
    [marcozehe] Totally agree, do away with that stupid aria-hidden and just use alt="". :-)
  21. StommePoes
    10:25
    I've been training the devs to use aria-hidden on all the places they use font-icons, so I may just slip the alt="" in there for them.
  22. zakim-robot
    10:26
    [marcozehe] Does role="presentation" not work in those instances? It's more consistently supported than aria-hidden.
  23. MichielBijl
    10:26
    @StommePoes did we test role="presentation" in the font awesome thingy?
  24. StommePoes
    10:41
    um, I don't think so
  25. StommePoes
    10:41
    what role would we be undoing there?
  26. StommePoes
    10:41
    in the fa tests
  27. zakim-robot
    10:42
    [michiel] Right, nothing. Because it was a span. Nevermind then.
  28. zakim-robot
    10:42
    [michiel] Could test in the SVG thingy.
  29. StommePoes
    10:42
    It has a role of diagram on Linux/FF
  30. StommePoes
    10:42
    but not sure what that role even means to anyone... and anyway, chaals considered it a fail because it was supposed to have a role of img instead.
  31. StommePoes
    10:42
    SVGs have the diagram role I mean.
  32. zakim-robot
    10:43
    [marcozehe] Umm, the FF thing probably stemmed from the time IE was the only other browser exposing anything for SVGs, and when this was conceived, SVG was much less powerful than today. If there is consensus or even a spec, feel free to file a bug.
  33. zakim-robot
    10:45
    [marcozehe] I don't know much about SVGs, but hear that they can be much more than a simple image. So not sure what is correct.
  34. StommePoes
    10:48
    (StommePoes) I'm not sure either, was going by the "shoulds" listed in the SVG tests Chaals made up
  35. StommePoes
    10:48
    (StommePoes) so I could state in my tests whether ATK exposed the role they were looking for or not, but not whether it's actually the correct role, cause I dunno either.
  36. StommePoes
    10:49
    (StommePoes) it's likely from ATK more than FF really... I don't know how to see those in Epiphany which is webkit because I'm using a browser plugin DomInspector in FF to see what roles ATK is giving...
  37. zakim-robot
    10:55
    [michiel] @marcozehe: have you used Gitter before?
  38. stevefaulkner
    10:56
    Latest SVG mapping spec defines <SVG> with group role https://www.w3.org/TR/svg-aam-1.0/
  39. zakim-robot
    11:11
    [michiel] “The strenght of a developer is not measured by their ability to use ARIA, but rather by their ability to prevent it.”—Gene Roddenberry
  40. jkva
    11:11
    I thought that was a Gandalf quote?
  41. zakim-robot
    11:12
    [michiel] You can complain to Steve: https://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2015/01/notes-on-providing-alt-text-for-twitter-images/
  42. StommePoes
    11:13
    (StommePoes) het twitter is trying to implement alt text I think
  43. StommePoes
    11:15
    s/het/hey
  44. zakim-robot
    11:16
    [michiel] @StommePoes, I don't see that?
  45. zakim-robot
    11:19
    [michiel] It's better than nothing I guess, but it doesn't add any useful information…
  46. StommePoes
    11:20
    http://stommepoes.nl/work/alt-text-tweets.png screenshot developer tools show a new (or, new to me anyway) shadow-dom section with divs called alt-text
  47. StommePoes
    11:21
    I mean, I'm always diving into the dev tools to get to links I want to open in new tabs because you can't get to them any other way than via the devtools (because forever-scroll really, really suck and I don't want to lose my place, I hate that)
  48. StommePoes
    11:21
    so I don't remember seeing this anymore plus I'm noticing a lot of images not loading if they are directly uploaded to twitter
  49. StommePoes
    11:21
    so I'm guessing... hoping... that this is part of an alt-text implementation, even though for now the text in those boxes is "Embeded image permalink"
  50. zakim-robot
    11:21
    [michiel] @StommePoes, seems that was already there: https://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2015/01/notes-on-providing-alt-text-for-twitter-images/#comment-1975
  51. zakim-robot
    11:22
    [michiel] > Bizarre to make the alt text of every in-stream image “Embedded image permalink”.
  52. StommePoes
    11:22
    yeah but the code looks different to me
  53. StommePoes
    11:23
    I might be mistaken that this is not new but I am always picking out links and images so I can open them in a new tab, and I don't recognise this new code.
  54. StommePoes
    11:23
    I don't remember stuff being stuffed into a shadow-dom area
  55. StommePoes
    11:23
    or a div called alt text
  56. StommePoes
    11:43
    http://img03.deviantart.net/5370/i/2012/132/b/c/fail_whale_by_hormesis-d4zfuof.png alt="drawing of a dead fail whale slowly pulling down the birds who were holding it up in a net into the water to drown..."
  57. StommePoes
    11:44
    I miss the fail whale, twitter shows a robot missing a hand now.
  58. zakim-robot
    11:48
    [marcozehe] I used Gitter before, or its IRC bridge, but it proved a bit unreliable for me. Besides, the Gitter interface is almost as problematic as the one on Slack. And since Slack is pretty high in demand, I thought I'd dogfood.
  59. MichielBijl
    12:15
    But now you don't know who's talking woef woef
  60. zakim-robot
    12:18
    [michiel] Or is that just on mobile?
  61. StommePoes
    12:19
    (StommePoes) I found gitter on regular IRC mostly fine, except sometimes my connection would bork and Pidgin would open a new gitter window with no history of the others
  62. StommePoes
    12:19
    plus no history anyway
  63. zakim-robot
    12:20
    [michiel] Marco has IRCCloud, so the history thing shouldn't be a problem.
  64. zakim-robot
    12:20
    [michiel] At least not from the moment he connects on.
  65. StommePoes
    12:22
    (StommePoes) no, he certainly has it better than just running Pidgin <grin>, but IRC seemed otherwise ok
  66. StommePoes
    12:22
    (StommePoes) I did have trouble clicking links, they were doubled in IRC
  67. StommePoes
    12:22
    stupid cat posting from Pidgin
  68. StommePoes
    12:22
    Hm, website still not showing my name in front in Gitter, but might for Slack users... ?
  69. zakim-robot
    12:23
    [michiel] Which website?
  70. zakim-robot
    12:29
    [rodneyrehm] hey!
  71. zakim-robot
    12:29
    [michiel] Hi :)
  72. StommePoes
    12:32
    Michiel: the gitter.im website, sorry
  73. StommePoes @StommePoes waves at Rodney
  74. zakim-robot
    12:33

    [rodneyrehm] I usually element.disable = true; any <button>s while they’re asynchronous operation is still processed. This is done also done to prevent double executions by way of double clicks. The thing I did not realize until today: disabling the button makes it lose focus.

    I only noticed this because of IE11 focusing the parent element of the button - https://jsbin.com/pobake/1/edit?html,css,js,output

    Now… what’s the expected behavior from a UX perspective? should the button retain focus? (if so, the disabled property can’t be used anymore and another mechanism has to be found to simulate that)

  75. MichielBijl
    12:33
    Shows two messages from StommePoes with her name above the message
  76. MichielBijl
    12:33
    …
  77. MichielBijl
    12:34
    alt="Shows two messages from StommePoes with her name above the message"
  78. zakim-robot
    12:34
    [rodneyrehm] Hi StommePoes
  79. MichielBijl
    12:34
    Argh, edits don't translate through the sameroom.io thing
  80. StommePoes
    12:34
    (13:33:13) MichielBijl: [![blob](https://files.gitter.im/w3c/a11ySlackers/UCA8/thumb/blob.png)](https://files.gitter.im/w3c/a11ySlackers/UCA8/blob) (13:33:33) MichielBijl: [edit] [![Shows two messages from StommePoes with her name above the message](https://files.gitter.im/w3c/a11ySlackers/UCA8/thumb/blob.png)](https://files.gitter.im/w3c/a11ySlackers/UCA8/blob) (13:33:37) MichielBijl: ?
  81. StommePoes
    12:35
    I meant my posts, via IRC, aren't adding my name to the chat text either so still show up as unnamed for Marco etc
  82. zakim-robot
    12:35
    [michiel] Ah
  83. zakim-robot
    12:36
    [michiel] Maybe if you connect through IRC from the Slacker side?
  84. zakim-robot
    12:37
    [michiel] @rodneyrehm: interesting question, don't know, but definitely interested to learn more about it!
  85. zakim-robot
    12:38
    [rodneyrehm] I’m currently trying to figure out how to present that question to Marco and Leonie - because it doesn’t fit in a tweet. It doesn’t fit in a tweet and my world is upside down. wtf is wrong with me?
  86. zakim-robot
    12:38
    [michiel] Wait for them to implement the 10k tweet thing.
  87. zakim-robot
    12:39
    [michiel] Or send them both an e-mail :P
  88. StommePoes
    12:39
    Hi Rodney it's normal that disabled things don't have focus
  89. StommePoes
    12:39
    and so if you need to remove it programmatically (js sets something to disabled while someone is concievably focussed on it), best is to move focus to the nearest sensible focusable
  90. zakim-robot
    12:39
    [michiel] Wouldn't a busy state be more appropriate?
  91. zakim-robot
    12:39
    [rodneyrehm] I was well aware of disabled elements not getting focus. I just never realized that document.activeElement.disabled = true; had a blur effect :wink:
  92. StommePoes
    12:40
    For example we disabled our "add to basket" buttons when someone added a product to the basket... best place to move focus was then the number input, so people could either change the number of items (which re-enabled the button) or tab away from there, as it was a known place (users go past that input anyway to even get to the button)
  93. zakim-robot
    12:40
    [michiel] https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#aria-busy
  94. zakim-robot
    12:40
    [rodneyrehm] I actually am adding aria-busy=“true” on the button as well (that triggers a visual spinner/throbber/whateveryoucallit to indicate something is happening). But that doesn’t prevent any further clicks, taps or keypresses :wink:
  95. StommePoes
    12:40
    Rodney yeah I learned that too, originally I had not manually moved focus and then I added something to our basket and suddenly my focus was OH NOES back at the top and that sucked
  96. zakim-robot
    12:41
    [rodneyrehm] and that’s what disabled is really great for - one property and the thing is dead.
  97. StommePoes
    12:41
    That's when i started moving it to a sensible nearby place, though I was also lucky that there was a sensible, nearby place.
  98. zakim-robot
    12:41
    [michiel] Hmm, not by default, but you could still catch the presence of aria-busy and disable all the things?
  99. zakim-robot
    12:41
    [michiel] But yeah
  100. zakim-robot
    12:41
    [michiel] I'm thinking in workarounds, not answers, sorry.
  101. zakim-robot
    12:42
    [rodneyrehm] @michiel: adding ejections like that to every event handler is something you really want to avoid… :confused:
  102. StommePoes
    12:42
    Hm, it seems via IRC while I can send private messages to people and go to public rooms, I can't go into private rooms.
  103. StommePoes
    12:43
    sadpandapoes
  104. zakim-robot
    12:43
    [rodneyrehm] @michiel: I started experimenting in a similar direction, though: https://jsbin.com/qalujo/edit?html,js,console,output
  105. zakim-robot
    12:44
    [rodneyrehm] not sure how to emulate the lacking :active without adding pointer-events: none (which in turn kills the click-capture effect the disabled property has)
  106. StommePoes
    12:44
    I think the developer doing the button disabling because of a click is the one best to determine where the user's focus should be brought to... in other words, I don't know if it's sensible to have something automatically look for a focusable and move focus there. Like alt text best written by the writer of the content/creator of the image...
  107. zakim-robot
    12:46
    [rodneyrehm] StommePoes, I’m trying to figure this out for two reasons: (a) fix that issue in my app, (b) identify how to make this more obvious and possibly generic so it can be added to ally.js
  108. StommePoes
    12:46
    Yeah I figured you wanted to have somethig automatic for your lib users
  109. StommePoes
    12:47
    I just dunno if the lib can reasonably do that, or if it can do things like... alert a dev?
  110. zakim-robot
    12:47
    [rodneyrehm] that disable buttons thing is a rather commong thing, sometimes it’s async, sometimes it’s a simple timeout (effectively debouncing the event handler) - sounds like a thing we should stop solving with duct-tape
  111. StommePoes
    12:47
    quack
  112. zakim-robot
    12:47
    [michiel] Ducktape?
  113. StommePoes
    12:48
    shrug all I know is, I had this very problem but had to manage focus myself, and am not sure the best way for a lib to do this. Or even the browser.
  114. zakim-robot
    12:48
    [rodneyrehm] @michiel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duct_tape
  115. StommePoes
    12:48
    Michiel, duct-tape is for ducts but it sounds like duck tape and that also happens to be a brand name so it's actually no longer incorrect to say duck tape
  116. zakim-robot
    12:49
    [rodneyrehm] ah, ok, missed the quack… sorry :smile:
  117. StommePoes
    12:49
    http://www.duckbrand.com/
  118. StommePoes
    12:49
    As kids we all said duck tape
  119. zakim-robot
    12:49
    [karlgroves] very late to the conversation, but I think providing an argument for the next focusable element makes sense.
  120. StommePoes
    12:49
    and wondered what ducks had to do with it :P
  121. zakim-robot
    12:50
    [rodneyrehm] what if the next focusable element is the same element, in like 1 second?
  122. StommePoes
    12:50
    Karl do you mean a place where a dev can list/set the desired focusable? Only because I had situations where the prev focusable made most sense (it was the prev element, so they were very close to each other, next focusable was quite far away in another section)
  123. StommePoes
    12:50
    Rodney: oooh, great question.
  124. StommePoes
    12:51
    But then a user sits in limbo for that second (or longer), right?
  125. zakim-robot
    12:51
    [rodneyrehm] I’d prefer to have great answers, instead, but, … :wink:
  126. StommePoes
    12:51
    Like, if my CPU has the flu and what should be a second becomes longer...
  127. zakim-robot
    12:51
    [rodneyrehm] correct, that’s what the aria-busy=“true” is there to indicate…
  128. StommePoes
    12:51
    um
  129. StommePoes
    12:51
    so I'm a non-SR keyboarder
  130. StommePoes
    12:51
    what do I get with aria-busy? the spinny ball?
  131. zakim-robot
    12:51
    [rodneyrehm] "there’s something happening, hang on, we’ll continue in a sec."
  132. StommePoes
    12:52
    can I, during aria-busy, do things like ctrl-L to my address bar and whatnot?
  133. zakim-robot
    12:52
    [michiel] @rodneyrehm: is that an alert text or button text?
  134. zakim-robot
    12:52
    [rodneyrehm] "spinny ball” == “throbber/spinner/whateveryoucallit”, yes, exactly that.
  135. zakim-robot
    12:52
    [michiel] @StommePoes: yes
  136. StommePoes
    12:52
    if so, that's cool... pages who load slow like Angular pages, my focus if it was on the page seems to often get lost and ends up back at the top
  137. zakim-robot
    12:52
    [rodneyrehm] yes, you can do anything, except for clicking on the button again…
  138. StommePoes
    12:52
    oh, ok. Sounds reasonable.
  139. StommePoes
    12:53
    I guess when the button gets its focusability back, focus() could be called.. though if there was a long delay I wonder if that would be too high-jacky
  140. zakim-robot
    12:54
    [rodneyrehm] at least in my case it’s really a localized issue. prevent the button from being invoked multiple times, preferably without losing focus by itself - as the developer can always focus something else in the click handler before disabling the button
  141. StommePoes
    12:54
    I was ordering tickets for CSUN on KLM.com and when you answer certain questions the screen yanks you down (and scrolls) to a new/coloured section of the page... I guess i understand why they do it, but it's a bit scary for people like me :P
  142. zakim-robot
    12:54
    [michiel] Maybe we should propose a disabledbutmaintianfocus attribute?
  143. zakim-robot
    12:54
    [rodneyrehm] hehe
  144. StommePoes
    12:54
    but that breaks disableds-shouldn't-be-focusable rule
  145. StommePoes
    12:54
    (to michiel_
  146. StommePoes
    12:55
    s/_/)
  147. zakim-robot
    12:55
    [michiel] Just a busy attribute then…
  148. zakim-robot
    12:55
    [rodneyrehm] but does aria-busy indicate that the element is absolutely not interactive at the moment?
  149. LjWatson
    12:55
    @rodneyrehm what was the question? Only payying a little attention here atm.
  150. zakim-robot
    12:55
    [rodneyrehm] »Indicates whether an element, and its subtree, are currently being updated.«
  151. zakim-robot
    12:56
    [michiel] > Indicates an element is being modified and that assistive technologies may want to wait until the modifications are complete before exposing them to the user.
  152. zakim-robot
    12:57
    [rodneyrehm] @ljwatson: I was wondering about a particular scenario regarding buttons. We disable buttons upon click to prevent double executions and re-enable the button after the operation completed. That’s a pretty standard thing. The problem is, the button loses focus when it's disabled. So the question is, what do we do about that losing focus situation?
  153. LjWatson
    12:58
    Do you need to do anything?
  154. StommePoes
    12:58
    LjWatson if you don't focus usually ends up at the top of the page
  155. StommePoes
    12:58
    annoys the hell out of me, so in the past I've manually moved focus to another part of (in my case, shopping cart form)
  156. LjWatson
    12:59
    If focus pings to the top of the page it makes sense to do someting about it.
  157. StommePoes
    12:59
    I mean, so long as I know where my focus is, and so long as I don't have to start from the top of the page just because I hit a button, I prolly don't care what the dev does...
  158. zakim-robot
    12:59
    [rodneyrehm] the question is which element should have focus while the button is disabled. the button can regain focus when re-enabled
  159. zakim-robot
    13:00
    [michiel] Maybe the thing that IE does isn't so bad (set focus to the parent element)
  160. StommePoes
    13:00
    And Rodney's case is different from mine: the button only became re-enabled if the user changed the number of items (could re-add to cart). Whereas, he's thinking of maybe doing aria-busy and when the button "comes back", refocus on it.
  161. StommePoes
    13:00
    If that's what IE does, me gusta (at least, it's better than being thrown to the top).
  162. zakim-robot
    13:00
    [rodneyrehm] while very unexpected of IE in this situation, it is what I do all the time, too, @michiel
  163. LjWatson
    13:01
    BTW I don't think aria-busy is needed on the button is it?
  164. zakim-robot
    13:01
    [michiel] :)
  165. StommePoes
    13:01
    I have no idea, I've never used aria-busy yet...
  166. zakim-robot
    13:02
    [rodneyrehm] aria-busy may not be necessary, but I needed to apply some waiting style on the button and thought aria-busy was exactly what I wanted to accomplish
  167. zakim-robot
    13:02
    [rodneyrehm] I use aria-busy on buttons and forms to indicate that the software is working on something
  168. LjWatson
    13:03
    But the button isn't being modified/rebuilt is it? It's just disabled whilst some other thing happens.
  169. zakim-robot
    13:03
    [rodneyrehm] and on arbitrary elements to indicate that we’re still waiting on the network to load the data
  170. zakim-robot
    13:03
    [rodneyrehm] yes, that’s true, the button itself is not rebuilt
  171. zakim-robot
    13:03
    [michiel] Isn't the form it's in being updated?
  172. StommePoes
    13:03
    sort of a generic "loading" state... "stuffs happening on the page now..." sort of thing.
  173. zakim-robot
    13:03
    [rodneyrehm] yes, exactly
  174. StommePoes
    13:04
    Visually one often gets spinny thingies...
  175. zakim-robot
    13:04
    [michiel] But then the page or form should have aria-busy no?
  176. StommePoes
    13:05
    though we also added text immediately after our buttons stating "added to shopping cart" and if it weren't instantaneous I suppose a "please wait while we load your shopping cart" would be an ok message with or without any roles...
  177. zakim-robot
    13:05
    [michiel] Those should be alerts
  178. zakim-robot
    13:06
    [michiel] As in role="alert"
  179. StommePoes
    13:06
    The added-to-cart wasn't an alert in our case
  180. StommePoes
    13:06
    It was text after the button (worked great when I can only see a small part of the screen like in ZoomText) and the upper-right of the page with the shopping cart stuff had a live region which showed new text: number of products and new total price.
  181. StommePoes
    13:06
    but we didn't alert it.
  182. LjWatson
    13:07
    There is an example of the add to cart alert here http://tink.uk/accessible-forms-with-aria-live-regions/
  183. StommePoes
    13:07
    Suppose we could have wrapped the "in-cart" div in such a role tho...
  184. StommePoes
    13:07
    Yup that's pretty much what we did
  185. StommePoes
    13:08
    except the live region was physically far away from the button, so for cognitive and (yeah selfish me) zoom users, had text right next to the button appear as well.
  186. StommePoes
    13:08
    With high zoom there's no way I'd know my upper-right-hand-corner shopping cart area changed, and with ZT I don't hear live regions, so had additional visible text right under the add-to-cart button.
  187. StommePoes
    13:09
    Hm, we didn't use assertive though, we used polite. Oh well, I no longer have access to that code base anymore anyway...
  188. zakim-robot
    13:10
    [michiel] If it was a Canadian web shop that doesn't really matter…
  189. StommePoes
    13:11
    because... beavers??
  190. StommePoes
    13:12
    oh polite
  191. StommePoes
    13:12
    yup
  192. zakim-robot
    13:12
    [michiel] Ha
  193. zakim-robot
    13:17
    [rodneyrehm] I haven’t yet done anything with live regions or alerts or anything…
  194. zakim-robot
    13:21
    [michiel] There is a bitchin' code example in the APG :p
  195. StommePoes
    13:23
    var xhr = XMLHttpRequest ? new XMLHttpRequest() : new ActiveXObject("Microsoft.XMLHTTP"); woo, that's ancient
  196. zakim-robot
    13:39
    [michiel] @jkva: https://twitter.com/karlgroves/status/689440518720258050
  197. zakim-robot
    13:40
    [karlgroves] I thought about making a ColdFusion example. LMAO
  198. MichielBijl
    13:41
    Haha
  199. jkva
    13:41
    Sweet! Finally real language support ;)
  200. zakim-robot
    13:41
    [karlgroves] lol
  201. zakim-robot
    13:43
    [karlgroves] Up next: Fortran!
  202. zakim-robot
    13:44
    [michiel] Sometime next week: “How to post to @TenonAPI with punch cards”
  203. jkva
    13:53
    Hmm, if Tenon has an actual API, Perl bindings would be interesting
  204. StommePoes
    13:55
    It is an API
  205. StommePoes
    13:55
    just REST
  206. StommePoes
    13:55
    send stuff, get stuff
  207. jkva
    13:55
    Yeah, I realised the folly of my statement as I made it =P
  208. StommePoes
    13:56
    hey Karl I sent you a mail a whiles back, can you tell me if you got it? Otherwise I'll try to send again
  209. StommePoes
    13:57
    sometimes various services block the server my mail comes from (apparently a bad neighbourhood or something)
  210. zakim-robot
    13:57
    [michiel] His inbox currently has about 60 unread messages (there abouts)
  211. StommePoes
    13:57
    are they... from a few days ago?
  212. StommePoes
    13:57
    if so, I just wait
  213. zakim-robot
    13:58
    [michiel] \looks\
  214. zakim-robot
    13:58
    [michiel] Yes.
  215. StommePoes
    13:59
    you snooping on his machine? :P
  216. jkva
    13:59
    Heh
  217. zakim-robot
    13:59
    [marcozehe] Sorry, late to the conversation. This problem of "you press a button and focus gets lost" is happening in desktop applications often enough, too, so neither Windows nor OS X have a standard way to deal with it. Some apps put it back at the first control of a dialog, for example, others just do nothing, and thus require a physical mouse click to get focus back to somewhere useful.
  218. jkva
    14:00
    All right, one more debate on SPA vs progressive design. Hopfeully the last.
  219. zakim-robot
    14:00
    [michiel] His iCloud security questions were really easy, so after that it was a matter of using Back to my Mac :P
  220. StommePoes
    14:00
    "WITHOUT AN SPA THE USERS WILL RECEIVE TERRIBLE PAGE REPRESHES, O THE HUMANITY
  221. StommePoes
    14:00
    "
  222. zakim-robot
    14:00
    [marcozehe] An example is a dialog with an Apply button. Preferably, the nearest other button, the default button (like OK) or the first control in the dialog that you can interact with, should be focused. So it really depends on the context, and a general rule may be difficult.
  223. StommePoes
    14:01
    Oh, all dialogs I make have close buttons, and since they're often first in source, I tend to focus on them. Or, so far I've never had a dialog that did not have a close button...
  224. zakim-robot
    14:01
    [michiel] @marcozehe: so if a library did it, it would be best to allow authors to provide an ID or something to point to? +@rodneyrehm
  225. zakim-robot
    14:02
    [marcozehe] Yes, and I believe that's what @karlgroves was suggesting above.
  226. zakim-robot
    14:03
    [karlgroves] Yeah. perhaps instead of an actual IDREF, anything that can be grabbed with querySelectorAll()
  227. zakim-robot
    14:03
    [karlgroves] naturally in that case you’d want to select the first instance returned
  228. zakim-robot
    14:04
    [karlgroves] Or maybe allow a callback function that can do that work for you
  229. zakim-robot
    14:05
    [marcozehe] @rodneyrehm: do you copy? ;-)
  230. jpdevries
    14:05
    Hello a11y slackers. I have a philosophical question for you (asking for a friend). Is it possible to make a UI that is entirely drawn from JSON truly accessible? In other words, does HTML have to be there first no matter how fancy you make it after the fact?
  231. zakim-robot
    14:06
    [karlgroves] All that matters is the user experience. :wink:
  232. zakim-robot
    14:06
    [marcozehe] Nope. As long as the generated output is all semantically sane, it doesn't matter when it gets inserted in the DOM.
  233. zakim-robot
    14:06
    [marcozehe] Oh and yes and the user experience is good for everyone. :-)
  234. StommePoes
    14:06
    Guess it depends what you mean by accessible. If JS has to build a bunch of HTML elements after the fact, then anyone in a train's prolly not going to access that very well...
  235. jpdevries
    14:07
    ^ Exactly. What about consideration for .no-js users? Or if the JavaScript breaks?
  236. StommePoes
    14:07
    So, accessible to people with no network problems, no conflicting scripts, no ISPs injecting crazy stuff too, etc etc.
  237. StommePoes
    14:07
    Well they get nothing, if you start with nothing.
  238. StommePoes
    14:07
    They get <body></body>
  239. StommePoes
    14:07
    but
  240. jkva
    14:07
    For no-js users, yeah it won't work
  241. jpdevries
    14:07
    (that's my point)
  242. StommePoes
    14:08
    you could start with something that works (which would be HMTL) and yeah, you can layer on anything thats "extra" as much as you wnat
  243. jpdevries
    14:08
    I think it is an interesting question these days, with all the one-page Angular stuff. People seem to be fine skipping over HTML
  244. jkva
    14:08
    Welcome to my world
  245. stevefaulkner
    14:08
    For no-js users, yeah it won't work
  246. jpdevries
    14:08
    but for me, I think HTML needs to be there upfront. Even if it is just a <noscript>Please enable JS so you can ____</noscript>
  247. jkva
    14:08
    What did I say?
  248. StommePoes
    14:08
    If you were thinking specifically about Screen readers etc, I have seen people add aria-live=assertive to the body tag on angular pages because angular being slow as balls, but I dunno if that's the best way to deal with it.
  249. stevefaulkner
    14:08
    issue not to be confused with accessibility of content from people with disabilities
  250. StommePoes
    14:09
    <noscript> assumes a lot, though... like, that the UA does not run scripts
  251. jpdevries
    14:09
    @StommePoes true. <noscript> doesn't help you when js just breaks
  252. StommePoes
    14:09
    A network glitch should not trigger a noscript
  253. StommePoes
    14:09
    yeah
  254. jpdevries
    14:10
    @stevefaulkner do you feel supporting .no-js is important when considering accessibility of people with disabilities (or just content)?
  255. jkva
    14:10
    What's the point of content if you can't access it?
  256. jpdevries
    14:10
    amen
  257. StommePoes
    14:10
    People with disabilities are not more likely to not be running JS than people without disabilities if you mean that
  258. stevefaulkner
    14:11
    @jpdevries I don't consider it an issue for supporting people with disabilities in particular
  259. StommePoes
    14:11
    With that exception I've seen with the silly slow-as-balls loading angular pages, SRs who make virtual buffers may get an empty buffer
  260. zakim-robot
    14:11
    [marcozehe] @StommePoes and @michiel : When are you travelling to San Diego and back? I have a voucher here from Delta who cooperate with KLM, and was thinking to try and get especially onto that airline to save my employer some money.
  261. StommePoes
    14:11
    Marco we got a flight direct from AMS to LAX, would you be travelling here first?
  262. StommePoes
    14:12
    Marco otherwise I think from Germany there were other places that you'd end up stopping (even if the partner were Delta)
  263. zakim-robot
    14:12
    [marcozehe] Yes, I always need to get toone of the big airports first.
  264. stevefaulkner
    14:12
    With that exception I've seen with the silly slow-as-balls loading angular pages, SRs who make virtual buffers may get an empty buffer
  265. StommePoes
    14:12
    Steve you've seen that, right?
  266. jkva
    14:12
    You don't write for specific technologies, you write to provide content via the ways available
  267. StommePoes
    14:12
    I can't remember where I was reading about it
  268. jpdevries
    14:12
    @StommePoes that is good to know, that people with disabilities aren't more or less likely to use js.
  269. stevefaulkner
    14:12
    latency can be an issue, but does not mean that no JS is the solution
  270. StommePoes
    14:12
    @marcoZehe Michiel has posted somewhere all his flight details, he can probably send to you in a direct communication
  271. StommePoes
    14:13
    @jpdevreis most of the time, it's access technology layered over a usual browser with usual settings... not always, but mostly
  272. zakim-robot
    14:13
    [marcozehe] @StommePoes:Would love that! Maybe we can all hop on the same plane. :-)
  273. jkva
    14:14
    w00t =)
  274. zakim-robot
    14:14
    [marcozehe] @StommePoes: And for me, it doesn't matter if I fly from Hamburg to Frankfurt or Munich, London or Amsterdam to get onto an overseas flight. I have to do it anyway.
  275. StommePoes
    14:14
    @marcoZehe dude the seats for the way there were dwindling, grab the flight now!! But that would be awesome
  276. jpdevries
    14:14
    I've been exploring using JS to enhance accessibility and usability by making components that let you do things like set your font face, font size preferences using localStorage. In firefox you can even enable a high contrast theme to automatically trigger in dim lighting! http://markup.tips/settings.html#focus
  277. stevefaulkner
    14:14
    I get the progressive enhancement argument for the web, but in many situations I deal with, such as web apps over intranets, its a non starter
  278. StommePoes
    14:14
    @marcoZehe I specifically chose via KLM to get a flight as non-stop as possible, and that meant LAX... because if the layover is not long enough, not only are there a lot of other flights to SAN but there's also, if necessary, an intercity bus
  279. jkva
    14:14
    @stevefaulkner Yeah I was lucky that the client demanded lynx/elinks support
  280. zakim-robot
    14:15
    [karlgroves] +1 to @stevefaulkner.
    Also, TBH, isn’t it kind of the edge case of edge cases?
  281. StommePoes
    14:15
    SteveFaulkner what is your definition of a web app
  282. StommePoes
    14:15
    It is an edge case except every developer says it's not.
  283. StommePoes
    14:15
    I could say a chat client being decent prolly needs to be appy
  284. stevefaulkner
    14:15
    google docs for example
  285. StommePoes
    14:15
    But most web pages with a form for interaction, like 9292.nl, no.
  286. zakim-robot
    14:15

    [karlgroves] > Yeah I was lucky that the client demanded lynx/elinks support

    Why is that lucky?
    http://www.karlgroves.com/2011/12/28/text-only-is-not-accessible/

  287. StommePoes
    14:15
    yeah that's a good example, although I can use a webby mail client without all that crap
  288. stevefaulkner
    14:16
    I would say courseware can be appy
  289. jkva
    14:16
    Because I used it to get progressive enhancement in there.
  290. StommePoes
    14:16
    it was lucky because it allowed him to say "ok, no Angular" which is a lot of stupid work to make work in older browsers and accessible... not impossible, just a bigger pain in the ass than otherwise.
  291. jkva
    14:16
    Instead of having an angularJS SPA supporting what basically is a load of forms and charts and tables
  292. zakim-robot
    14:17
    [marcozehe] @StommePoes: Do you remember the exact date? I can then search through our agency and choose the correct flights.
  293. zakim-robot
    14:17
    [michiel] 19th of March
  294. zakim-robot
    14:17
    [michiel] I can look up the fligtnumber
  295. StommePoes
    14:17
    Saturday
  296. stevefaulkner
    14:17
    doesn’t work in lynx https://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2014/02/doesnt-work-lynx/
  297. jkva
    14:18
    @stevefaulkner: I didn't need to do much extra, really. lynx is shitty at rendering tables, but elinks is decent at it
  298. StommePoes
    14:18
    KL0601
  299. zakim-robot
    14:18
    [marcozehe] @michiel: Splendid, thanks! Will see if I can make that. When do you guys fly back?
  300. StommePoes
    14:18
    the next saturday
  301. StommePoes
    14:19
    That flight only had seats left in the screaming-baby section (the back) <grin>
  302. zakim-robot
    14:19
    [marcozehe] Perfect!
  303. StommePoes
    14:19
    The flight going to USA leaves at 9.50 in the morning I believe... will that work?
  304. StommePoes
    14:19
    Will you already be in Amsterdam or Schiphol?
  305. StommePoes
    14:21
    @stevefaulkner the client didn't say it needed to work in Lynx/elinks for accessibility, the client doesn't give two poops about accessibility. Apparently it's for sysadmins entering systems via ssh or something
  306. zakim-robot
    14:21
    [michiel] @marcozehe: have sent you info in direct message here on Slack.
  307. StommePoes
    14:21
    @stevefaulkner so it's about access, not accessibility, apparently.
  308. jpdevries
    14:21
    @stevefaulkner would you consider the manager interface for a CMS a "web app" in that regard?
  309. jkva
    14:21
    Oh, right yeah. According to client, they don't have disabled people working for them.
  310. StommePoes
    14:22
    And by having inaccessible internal app, they'd be basically ensuring they never will have disabled people working for them.
  311. StommePoes
    14:23
    So having the stuff work for everyone internally is excellent.
  312. MichielBijl
    14:25
    @stevefaulkner TPG blog is like the simpsons, if someone writes something about code and accessibility you can probably go like “TPG did it!”
  313. jpdevries
    14:25
    @StommePoes I agree. I also think it isn't just about making things work for everyone. As a designer, I've noticed that when keeping accessibility in mind I wind up with more performant experiences over all. Also, if you trace your frontend tech stack all the way back to the ubiquity of HTML (rather than just to ExtJS or Angular or something) you can stay future proof which is great when dealing with semver.
  314. stevefaulkner
    14:26
    @MichielBijl have touched on a lot of acc related subjects in my time
  315. zakim-robot
    14:26
    [karlgroves] Old fart
  316. stevefaulkner
    14:27
    @karlgroves - Yes i am old and I do fart
  317. StommePoes
    14:28
    I would be the biggest dickwad in the world if I only cared about people with physical disabilities but left out people who also can't help their situations like poverty and shitty bandwidths, and I certainly would never call whatever I built like that "accessible", even if it technically was to solely people with specific physical disabilities.
    That said, those of us who call "access" "access", it does still mean often specific, maybe extra attention needs to be made for people with physical disabilities because of the impact of code on them can be harsher-- otherwise you get an #allLivesMatter kind of thing, which is also BS (in terms of code)
  318. zakim-robot
    14:28
    [karlgroves] You’re my BFF steve
  319. StommePoes
    14:28
    Patrick Lauke is Steve's bff, sorry karl
  320. stevefaulkner
    14:29
    karl is my freedom loving BFF
  321. zakim-robot
    14:29
    [karlgroves] That’s OK.
  322. StommePoes
    14:30
    Also you're more likely to have a client who is legally obliged to make accessible-to-physically-disabled-users but not to people who simply cannot afford to upgrade their device or move to a place with fat-enough pipes for that 50MB steaming pile of crapH^H^H^ er, JS.
  323. StommePoes
    14:30
    So as a developer you may be forced to build shit and choose between two evils.
  324. stevefaulkner
    14:30
    pick your battles
  325. StommePoes
    14:30
    yeah
  326. powrsurg
    14:31
    Figures I get a reply long after I left.
  327. powrsurg
    14:31
    :)
  328. MichielBijl @MichielBijl waits for Brian to leave so he can reply, Muwhaha!
  329. zakim-robot
    14:32
    [karlgroves] I think we should avoid treating stuff as though it is an either-or choice. I don’t accept the notion that everything needs to work with JS off. I think JS can improve accessibility and usability. At the same time there’s a serious problem if substantial and important pieces don’t work with JS off.
  330. powrsurg
    14:33
    @MichielBijl the page in question is a sign up for a membership with an organization. You can sign up for multiple memberships with our site. Some cost, some are free. This is a "are you sure you would like to proceed with purchasing X" page since there were so many people signing up for the wrong thing. I wasn't sure if the proceed button should be a link, or a button for a form submission. A button that only submits them saying "yes" to proceeding doesn't really feel like a form to me.
  331. StommePoes
    14:33
    I'm totally okay with a not-super-amazeballs-working without JS and enhanced to SUPERAMAZEBALLS with it, unless it's absolutely a case of "playing Crysis on an Atari"
  332. StommePoes
    14:34
    Karl I'm trying to get our team to get aria roles OUT of our HTML, because with widgets, they'll break if JS breaks. I want JS to add those roles, and CSS to use the roles, not classes, to style something to look like the widget (like a tab panel). I think I might succeed.
  333. zakim-robot
    14:35
    [karlgroves] I think that’s a good idea. After all, without JS many roles are actually useless
  334. StommePoes
    14:35
    And I know Americans seem to be the loudest stating JS is black or white, maybe it's because public transport with wifi just isn't a thing over there like it is in other places... who knows. Jake Archibald called it "Lie-fi", though he was referring to hotels. Trains also have Lie-fi.
  335. zakim-robot
    14:36
    [karlgroves] <div role=“link”> (beyond being a terrible idea) wouldn’t work without JS
  336. StommePoes
    14:36
    Well, in tab panels if someone claims they're a tab in a tablist, then certain keystrokes are expected (if the user even knows what a tab-panel is, we still have that problem too that people don't know the new stuff)
  337. zakim-robot
    14:36
    [karlgroves] exactly
  338. StommePoes
    14:37
    That's the other thing, we have some button readmes and someone threw in there "oh well if it's a div or a span then put role="button" on it... I tore that out and wrote a long laundry list of all the things a developer must do if they insist on that.
  339. StommePoes
    14:37
    Make it a long enough list of makework and they may think twice... I could not actually get the div/span stuff removed entirely/.
  340. StommePoes
    14:38
    I also can't get the design people to agree things that act like buttons should look like buttons and things that act like links should look like links... bleh. Battle lost.
  341. jpdevries
    14:39
    :point_up: January 19, 2016 6:32 AM I agree JS can improve things but I think you should always shoot to have a base HTML layer underneath which is progressively enhanced. Ironically, I feel like it may have been my experience as a Flash Developer that lead me to this "HTML or die" mindset but you know...we pretty much had to put HTML underneath and didn't make excuses. So I don't get why JS devs get to make excuses like an HTML layer is too much.
  342. powrsurg
    14:39
    There are a lot of people that think just because it looks like a button means it should get role="button". I know I started out thinking that and had to pull them out eventually when I learned better
  343. StommePoes
    14:41
    JS devs get to make excuses because 1) they live in a developer fantasy land where all their users have their exact same network, device, browser and setup as they do and 2) progressive enhancement is soooooo year 2000's, man. 3) it takes sooooo much wooooork and all for the 1 mythical person-on-a-shitty-connection (similar to "why build for the one mythical blind man who might visit our site") 4) HTML is not the new hotness. 5) But our page is interactive, it has a form!!! so we're not a web page, we're an app and apps don't follow old-fashioned documents-sent-around-by-servers-to-clients bit.
  344. StommePoes
    14:41
    I mean, this is called an "app": http://9292.nl
  345. StommePoes
    14:41
    all it really is, is a form with some JS for autcomplete.
  346. powrsurg
    14:42
    I thought things like live regions really needed to have the ARIA stuff in the HTML at first otherwise some AT didn't read things off properly. For things like tabs I can see what you mean since you can't add the keyboard commands without JS
  347. StommePoes
    14:42
    Forms have worked since 1999, but man that's so old-fashioned.
  348. jpdevries
    14:42
    :point_up: January 19, 2016 6:41 AM It's not even 7am local time and @StommePoes has already made my day!
  349. zakim-robot
    14:42

    [karlgroves] > it takes sooooo much wooooork and all for the 1 mythical person-on-a-shitty-connection (similar to "why build for the one mythical blind man who might visit our site")

    Not the same. In one case its a civil-rights issue. In the other it is a loser-who-needs-a-better-connection.

  350. StommePoes
    14:43
    To me, the moral argument is about fairness
  351. StommePoes
    14:43
    I can't tell someone living in poverty : well just buy a new device, dummy! And I can't tell someone "well why don't you just move". It's unfair, and it grates my goat, because those statements come from privilege.
  352. StommePoes
    14:44
    And the argument "well someone who's blind can never see, but a poor person could conceivably win the lotto some day" (yeah, someone actually said that to me once) also pretty much sets my hair on fire.
  353. MichielBijl @MichielBijl visualises a giant grate and a goat…
  354. StommePoes
    14:44
    I'll grant the one is more likely than the other
  355. StommePoes
    14:45
    and I'll grant that physical disabilities IS a civil rights issue, absolutely.
  356. MichielBijl
    14:45
    Well, int he future it might be easier to see as a blind person than to win the lottery. That would be something.
  357. StommePoes
    14:46
    But I will never allow that to be some kind of excuse to tell other people "well you can just stop being poor so my website works for you." Ug. I'd say "My website is mildly usable and no, I'm not capable or good-enough to make it support a blackberry, I suck and I know that, kill me now" instead
  358. StommePoes
    14:46
    Depends on why you're blind, I guess.
  359. StommePoes
    14:47
    At least I put the blame squarely where it belongs: I the developer chose (or wasn't good enough to make work) to not have my [whatever] fully workable.
  360. StommePoes
    14:48
    Or I was forced to, as was the case with my previous employer-- it was, argue for (and kind of) access, or get the mortgage paid. I'll do a lot for web accessibility, but I'm keeping my damn roof on my head. Still, my choice-- shelter over working websites.
  361. StommePoes
    14:48
    s/and/any
  362. zakim-robot
    14:49

    [karlgroves] Let’s be honest, though. If you’re working on a site for a commercial enterprise, there’s only one goal for the website: make money. This comes in the form of increasing new money spent, reducing expenses, and keeping current customers.

    As a business owner myself, I’m not in business to lose money. So when someone writes me and says “Tenon should be $5 a month for the little guy”, I delete it. I’m paying lawyers $500 an hour and accountants $250 an hour, and developers $90 an hour and hosting for $500 a month, and a thousand dollars a month in other stuff.

    So, if you ask a business owner to make their site work for < 1% of population having a hard time connecting on a train, they’re going to ask you to prove how much income is generated by that person on the train. And its a fair question to ask.

  363. StommePoes
    14:49
    It's asked every time someone brings up an accessibility law
  364. StommePoes
    14:50
    and according to a talk I saw from Alice Bartlett, the only business argument for accessibility is... avoiding getting sued. It was sad, but for lots of businesses it's true.
  365. zakim-robot
    14:50
    [karlgroves] Very true.
  366. StommePoes
    14:50
    Even if you lump general usability with accessibility to increase users and ROI etc
  367. StommePoes
    14:50
    Someone showed me a great graph on twitter, his company did a bunch of a11y/usability fixes and gained almost 50% more customers.
  368. StommePoes
    14:51
    That's awesome, but not something I could convince my previous employers of.
  369. jkva
    14:51

    "So, if you ask a business owner to make their site work for < 1% of population having a hard time connecting on a train, they’re going to ask you to prove how much income is generated by that person on the train. And its a fair question to ask."

    That is a fair question. Why not build with that as a starting point?

  370. StommePoes
    14:51
    So in order to keep hair on my head, I told everyone that I'd let them know what's up one time, and if they said "yeah but no" then that was it, I woulfn't argue over it anymore.
  371. zakim-robot
    14:52
    [karlgroves] That graph is also probably bullshit.This is something I’ll never say on my blog or in a talk but I don’t believe there’s any ROI (in the form of increased revenue) from a11y.
  372. StommePoes
    14:52
    Well, we don't know how horrible the UI was of the site pre-fixes
  373. zakim-robot
    14:52
    [karlgroves] Exactly.
  374. StommePoes
    14:52
    it just showed, of the current number of visitors, the number of quotes increased by almost half, and then the number of people who went through also increased by about the same amount (both those being smaller than the number of visitors tho)
  375. zakim-robot
    14:53
    [rodneyrehm] @marcozehe: sorry, was away… I copy now, reading up on what you said, one moment :wink:
  376. zakim-robot
    14:53
    [karlgroves] Is this the Legal & General “study”?
  377. StommePoes
    14:54
    Karl yes
  378. StommePoes
    14:54
    the guy works there, you know him I think-- isofarro
  379. StommePoes
    14:54
    https://twitter.com/isofarro/status/689021350112022528
  380. zakim-robot
    14:54
    [karlgroves] I’m going to post something in the @random channel. Its really long so I don’t want to clog up this channel
  381. MichielBijl
    14:55
    That isn't piped to Gitter though.
  382. zakim-robot
    14:56
    [karlgroves] Good. Because Gitter is archived publicly. I don’t want anyone out there trying to use this as an argument against a11y.
  383. MichielBijl
    14:57
    Ha
  384. zakim-robot
    14:57
    [karlgroves] IMO a11y is a human rights issue and that’s that. Anyone who tries to make it about money needs a wedgie.
  385. zakim-robot
    14:57
    [karlgroves] When someone says “How many blinkies use our site” ask them “how many black people?” and whether that matters
  386. StommePoes
    14:59
    Yeah I use similar
  387. zakim-robot
    15:01

    [rodneyrehm] hm… so if I understand this correctly, @karlgroves and @marcozehe suggest to provide a way to address an element that receives focus in case it loses focus due to becoming disabled (or hidden, or removed, or otherwise lose ability to be focused).

    This would result in an observer looking at all blur events, figuring out if focus was shifted intentionally, or because the element lost focus, in which case the referenced element is queried and focused.

  388. StommePoes
    15:01
    So that's why Alice said it's pretty much a moral thing only, with the getting-sued thing being an exception.
  389. zakim-robot
    15:02
    [karlgroves] “Doing the right thing” only motivates people who believe in whatever “the right thing” is. Sadly, fear is a much stronger motivator. :disappointed:
  390. StommePoes
    15:03
    I did lambast some poor guy in a forum who was all like "Baloney, I don't need to do anything biut get paid by my client", and I just went off on him.
    It was a bad thing becuase it didn't change his mind (or, I doubt that it did), and isofarro pointed out that basically he was calling the bluff of web standards and never got a (real) argument for it-- bluff called.
    Not that I consider rants to be arguments, I just needed a rant.
  391. StommePoes
    15:03
    But usually my rants in that forum have some humour in them... this one was pure hair-on-fire.
  392. stevefaulkner
    15:03
    @karlgroves scares me
  393. zakim-robot
    15:03
    [karlgroves] If anyone plans on reading what I posted to @random, do it soon because I’m deleting it. Seriously I don’t need anyone saying “we’re not making our stuff accessible because Karl Groves said___"
  394. StommePoes
    15:03
    Probably just frightened the guy away.
  395. StommePoes
    15:04
    hm, I have no idea how I'd get to that
  396. stevefaulkner
    15:04
    I don't do slack as a rule
  397. zakim-robot
    15:04
    [karlgroves] Log into slack
  398. StommePoes
    15:04
    I can do it for frontlab slack
  399. StommePoes
    15:05
    logged into that slack URL...
  400. StommePoes
    15:06
    Ok I'm stupid, I have no idea how slack works, don't I need a URL? People give me urls like foofoobar.slack.com
  401. zakim-robot
    15:06
    [karlgroves] I’ll email it to you. :wink:
  402. StommePoes
    15:07
    I've got mutt open...
  403. zakim-robot
    15:09
    [kevinchao89] Tab list/panel is from native desktop apps, so should be familiar on web
  404. StommePoes
    15:09
    Lots of keyboarders have learned that focusabled are tabbable. I've seen this first hand, not counting myself.
  405. StommePoes
    15:09
    "focusables"
  406. MichielBijl
    15:10
    Related APG issue: w3c/aria#206
  407. StommePoes
    15:11
    I don't ever want to have to shift-tab out of a panel simply because I was trying to navigate to the last tab, however the "show panels on focus" don't have that as an issue. Instead, the issue is that the user must assume there's an open panel underneath the currently-focussed tab, so some people move focus() to the panel once a tab is focussed on.
  408. StommePoes
    15:12
    They also highjack the down arrow so you can't scroll the page. That one makes me rage even more, not everyone using keyboard has a handy screen reader to read what's offscreen for them :/
  409. StommePoes
    15:13
    It's really bad when, after one tab-panel, there's another one, so trying to tab to a focusable lower on the page that's after the tab-panel fails too.
  410. MichielBijl
    15:14
    Yeah that is still an issue.
  411. MichielBijl
    15:14
    Think there is an issue in GitHubby for that too.
  412. StommePoes
    15:15
    Zucht, nederland volgens mij niet gestemd voor openbare toegankelijkheid >:(
  413. jkva
    15:15
    bah :(
  414. MichielBijl
    15:15
    :(
  415. StommePoes
    15:16
    Uitgesteld... there may be hope, I don't know why the vote was delayed.
  416. StommePoes
    15:16
    Voting in Netherlands about Public Accessibility
  417. StommePoes
    15:16
    that means allowing service dogs anywhere and everywhere, and that wheelchair access becomes a must (not sure where though) instead of a nice-to-have
  418. zakim-robot
    15:29
    [kevinchao89] I'd use alt="" as it's widely supported and a good fallback where aria-hidden isn't supported
  419. StommePoes
    15:30
    yeah
  420. zakim-robot
    15:30
    [michiel] @kevinchao89: alt="" isn't a fallback for aria-hidden…
  421. zakim-robot
    15:31
    [michiel] Like say hide crappy icon fonts from AT.
  422. StommePoes
    15:31
    in my case I listed, alt is better than aria-hidden
  423. zakim-robot
    15:32
    [michiel] Yes.
  424. StommePoes
    15:32
    someone just added an image next to a link...
  425. StommePoes
    15:32
    yeah.
  426. zakim-robot
    15:34
    [michiel] test
  427. zakim-robot
    15:34
    [michiel] Hmm, this comment didn't get through to Gitter :/
  428. zakim-robot
    15:34
    [michiel] aria-hidden is a fallback for crappy implemented roles by vendors or for when you really need to hide something from AT.
  429. stevefaulkner
    15:36

    aria-hidden is a fallback for crappy implemented roles by vendors

    ?

  430. MichielBijl
    15:37
    svg icons?
  431. MichielBijl
    15:37
    If I recall correctly those lack consistent role mappings?
  432. MichielBijl
    15:37
    Or am a talking poop again?
  433. stevefaulkner
    15:38
    dunno, just wondered what you meant, you know your own poop ;-)
  434. MichielBijl
    15:38
    Ha
  435. stevefaulkner
    15:39
    i suppose aria-hidden is a way to hide SVG graphics is correct (as it works)
  436. zakim-robot
    15:47
    [kevinchao89] From a screen reader user POV, it's frustrating when focus lost happened as a result of disabled button and resets to top of page. Preference is focus to go to nearby sensible element (what replaced it or logical control)
  437. zakim-robot
    15:51
    [kevinchao89] Does the "added to cart" text get focused or have aria-live? Or is SR user required to manually focus it?
  438. MichielBijl
    15:52
    In which example?
  439. cr2a-graphique
    15:57

    hi there, litle question on title and link, when i have a link like 

    <a href="mypageprofile.html">Profile</a>

    the better title to describe the link are : 

    <a href="mypageprofile.html" title="Acces to the page : profile">Profile</a>

    Right ?

  440. StommePoes
    15:58
    @kevinChao the shopping cart thing I had, first focusable in the form was an input type=number then the add to cart button. After clicking Add to cart, the button became disabled, focus was moved back to the input type=number (if you changed the amount, the button becomes non-disabled again) and on another part of the page in the header was in an aria-live box where the other Shopping Cart stuff was
  441. StommePoes
    15:59
    kevinChao89 so an SR-user ideally doesn't have to do anything, although unfortunately I could not test with real people
  442. stevefaulkner
    15:59
    @cr2a-graphique doesn't the link text imply what is stated in the title?
  443. stevefaulkner
    16:00
    i.e. what is useful about the title in this case?
  444. cr2a-graphique
    16:03
    say you go to a page call profile and not somehere else like my profile account for exemple
  445. cr2a-graphique
    16:04
    think my english not good :)
  446. stevefaulkner
    16:05
    but the title tells me nothing more than the link text, if the link was to the 'profile account' page, the link text should be <a>profile account</a>
  447. stevefaulkner
    16:06
    also if the information in the title is important for users don't hide it in the title, see https://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2013/01/using-the-html-title-attribute-updated/
  448. cr2a-graphique
    16:06

    an other exemple : 

    <a href="mypagemontainarticlehimalaya.html" title="Acces to the article: himalaya">himalaya</a>

    <a href="mypagemontainarticlehimalaya.html">himalaya</a>

  449. cr2a-graphique
    16:07
    oups
  450. cr2a-graphique
    16:08 
    <a href="mypagemontainarticlehimalaya.html" title="Acces to the article: himalaya">himalaya</a>

    better than : 

    <a href="mypagemontainarticlehimalaya.html" >himalaya</a>

    Right ?

  451. zakim-robot
    16:08
    [kevinchao89] I've personally never used Lynx or any text browser, clients have never required it, and I don't know anyone who uses a text browser. I must be unaware of why a text browser over a modern GUI accessible browser+SR
  452. jkva
    16:10
    and I don't know anyone who uses a text browser
  453. jkva
    16:10
    s/text browser/wheelchair/
  454. StommePoes
    16:11
    I use lynx all the time, because my mail client runs on a server I ssh to, and if my mail is full of HTML, I use lynx to read it.
  455. jkva
    16:11
    there's elinks, lynx2...
  456. StommePoes
    16:11
    w3m
  457. MichielBijl
    16:11
    Word Wide Web Moartextbrowsers?
  458. StommePoes
    16:12
    and frankly, with my battery, I've been known to use twitter via EasyChirp in Lynx just to save my battery, though I'm sure I'm the only person in the world who does it.
  459. StommePoes
    16:12
    When I'm at conferences etc
  460. StommePoes
    16:12
    airports
  461. zakim-robot
    16:12
    [ellyjones] accessibility in a text browser seems likely to be much worse than in a graphical browser
  462. stevefaulkner
    16:13
    @cr2a-graphique again, if is important enough to disambiguate via a title attribute, then always better provide clear link text
  463. jkva
    16:13
    Yeah it's not great
  464. StommePoes
    16:13
    It's not great for certain AT, and I wouldn't necessarily argue AT vendors need to work on supporting that
  465. StommePoes
    16:13
    but it is untrue that people don't use text browsers simply because a developer hasn't heard of anyone using them. None of my colleagues in any of my previous jobs have ever known or seen with their own eyes a disabled person using a computer.
  466. zakim-robot
    16:14
    [ellyjones] the ones I know of are all curses-based and the curses accessibility story is "well they're all characters in a terminal so screenreaders can read them, yeah?"
  467. StommePoes
    16:14
    Which I think is kinda part of the issue we have with developers wondering why they should build accessible stuff, so it's why I'm always promoting those who are always talking (like Chris Hills)
  468. StommePoes
    16:14
    Reading a terminal needs espeak
  469. StommePoes
    16:14
    so it's not what you'd be using for your GUI
  470. StommePoes
    16:15
    But people who need AT do, in fact, sysadmin *nix boxes
  471. MichielBijl
    16:15
    Chris' videos are great.
  472. StommePoes
    16:15
    they do program
  473. StommePoes
    16:15
    They do work that requires a terminal.
  474. MichielBijl
    16:15
    “Disabled my arse!”
  475. StommePoes
    16:15
    They are simply less vocal about their jobs :P
  476. StommePoes
    16:15
    The orca mailing list has a group of such nerds
  477. StommePoes
    16:15
    for example.
  478. cr2a-graphique
    16:16
    ok thanks a lot @stevefaulkner
  479. StommePoes
    16:16
    I actually can't stand the music Chris plays in his videos, it's that child-like Mac music, but except for that, they're great. I want developers to see other developers/computer users who have disabilities, the more the better-- they are a minority but they can't be seen as some kind of extraordinary exception where they're "not worth building for"
  480. StommePoes
    16:18
    It's like people on twitter not believing someone is blind and tweeting because they have never thought the blind could even use a computer-- like "well your tweets are proof you're not blind because how can you see to write?" etc
  481. jkva
    16:18
    "We're not going to provide 2D-movies for the 1% who cannot see 3D"
  482. StommePoes
    16:19
    It needs to be more generally known and fairly normal that yeah, there are people with extra software who do average things with computers, socail media and running businesses etc.
  483. jkva
    16:19
    I'm not a number!
  484. StommePoes
    16:19
    They make poor @jkva pay the higher fee of the 3D movie on top of it!
  485. jkva
    16:19
    I'm not an elephant!
  486. jkva
    16:19
    To their credit, I think there are cinemas that have the 2d version sometimes
  487. StommePoes
    16:20
    Sometimes it's, the film may or may not have come with the key to unlock the captions, or the captions came separately and are not hooked up.
  488. MichielBijl
    16:20
    blob
  489. jkva
    16:21
    @MichielBijl: What's that?
  490. MichielBijl
    16:21
    alt="developer tools shows jkva's avatar is linked to his account number"
  491. MichielBijl
    16:21
    YOU ARE A NUMBER
  492. MichielBijl
    16:21
    :')
  493. StommePoes
    16:21
    lawlz.
  494. jkva
    16:21
    ._.
  495. MichielBijl
    16:21
    Although I can confirm that you're not an elephant =P
  496. jkva
    16:22
    Yeah, I'm way too forgetful
  497. powrsurg
    16:25
    just scrolled up and saw the talk about accessibility testing on a text-based browser ... somehow I feel that isn't supported very well
  498. powrsurg
    16:25
    and it made me wonder why none of them seem to be available for mobile devices. It makes sense for ios/android to at least have them ...
  499. MichielBijl
    16:26
    There is a “strips all your styling and crap” browser on iOS.
  500. MichielBijl
    16:26
    Forgot what it's called though…
  501. MichielBijl
    16:27
    Let me consult my music player for that.
  502. zakim-robot
    16:27
    [kevinchao89] Ok, I now know who use text browsers: Lynx, elinks, lynx2. Interesting use cases. Thanks!
  503. StommePoes
    16:28
    w3m
  504. StommePoes
    16:28
    Does tables better than lynx :)
  505. jnurthen
    16:29
    everything does tables better than lynx
  506. zakim-robot
    16:29
    [ellyjones] for a couple of years I used w3m exclusively
  507. zakim-robot
    16:29
    [ellyjones] it is pretty okay :simple_smile:
  508. StommePoes
    16:30
    EasyChirp makes twitter pretty cool on those
  509. MichielBijl
    16:32
    @powrsurg https://unstyleapp.com/
  510. MichielBijl
    16:32
    Basically reader view for the entire web…
  511. jkva
    16:33
    Nice
  512. zakim-robot
    16:33
    [kevinchao89] @michiel: much better said and thanks for details/clarification of alt="" vs. aria-hidden. Isn't role="presentation" better for poorly implemented roles?
  513. MichielBijl
    16:34
    My SVG research isn't up to that level, so I'd have to check it out in various browsers/AT and what not
  514. MichielBijl
    16:34
    If you want to help out/contribute tests/results: https://github.com/MichielBijl/font-awesome
  515. StommePoes
    16:35
    I do need to fill out more results, every time I go back and look I see I only really did test #4 with everyone
  516. MichielBijl
    16:35
    And our 0.4 milestone is 3 days over due!
  517. MichielBijl
    16:35
    OH NOES
  518. MichielBijl
    16:36
    I'll try to fix that tonight…
  519. MichielBijl
    16:36
    Sleep is for the weak and all that…
  520. StommePoes
    16:36
    @kevinChao89 if you need to override a role, or a role is kinda half-assed being implemented, yeah presentation is good. Images have a role of img but since alt="" is already implemented to silence images who are not meant to mean anything anyway then I'd rather use that.
  521. zakim-robot
    16:37
    [kevinchao89] Thanks for sharing https://unstyleapp.com/ ! Looks really useful/neat
  522. powrsurg
    16:37
    @MichielBijl okay, I guess I need an Android version :p
  523. MichielBijl
    16:37
    Also note that—if we get implementors on board—role="none" would be preferred: https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#none
  524. MichielBijl
    16:38
    When I say preferred, I mean shorter to write and clearer.
  525. MichielBijl
    16:38
    I haven't tested Unstyle on a11y stuff, but seemed like a nice thing anyway.
  526. StommePoes
    16:39
    That would be nice if you're using an HTML element with a native role, and then due to Javascript fuckery and a state change, you need to turn that thing into the equivalent of a div or span... role=none would rock.
  527. jnurthen
    16:40
    that is exactly what role=presentation does
  528. jnurthen
    16:40
    role=none=presentation
  529. jnurthen
    16:40
    they are defined as synonyms in the spec
  530. MichielBijl
    16:41

    @StommePoes

    the working group plans to introduce none as a synonym to the presentation role

  531. zakim-robot
    16:41
    [kevinchao89] +1 that role="none" is preferred. Think Chrome supports it
  532. MichielBijl @MichielBijl still needs to talk to those caniuse persons
  533. cr2a-graphique
    16:42
    ok thanks a lot @stevefaulkner
  534. stevefaulkner
    16:44
    role=none is partially implemented...
  535. MichielBijl
    16:48
    @StommePoes tot wanneer kan ik jouw Kika run sponsoren?
  536. LjWatson
    16:49
    On the Eurostar back to the UK - lousy connection for the moment.
  537. MichielBijl
    16:49
    Where did you go?
  538. StommePoes
    16:49
    @michielBijl run is 26 juni so until then
  539. MichielBijl
    16:49
    Cool!
  540. goetsu
    16:53
    Hi just a quick message to share with you the autocomplete widget Nicolas Hoffman and I have done http://a11y.nicolas-hoffmann.net/autocomplet-list/
  541. goetsu
    16:55
    it do not follow exactly the aria design pattern for comboxbox because it's not one but it has been tested against VO, Jaws 16 and NVDA
  542. goetsu
    16:56
    just a little glitch with Jaws and IE who repeat the aria-describedby tips explaining how it work after the first input in the field
  543. jnurthen
    16:56
    I don't like the fact it tabs to each of the entries in the autocomplete list
  544. goetsu
    16:56
    you also can use arrow key if you prefer
  545. goetsu
    16:57
    and it's needed if you want it to work in mobile
  546. jnurthen
    16:57
    no its not.....
  547. goetsu
    16:57
    how do you perform down arrow on mobile without a keyboard ?
  548. jnurthen
    16:58
    with a screen reader in the mix?
  549. goetsu
    16:58
    yes
  550. jnurthen
    16:58
    VO will navigate to things that aren't tabbable
  551. StommePoes
    16:58
    Narrator on Windows phone can sorta navigate by type (lumps things into containers and items) you swipe through them
  552. jnurthen
    16:59
    you absolutely don't need it to be in the tab focus order
  553. goetsu
    16:59
    I disagree
  554. StommePoes
    16:59
    I should try the example above on my phone, but, meeting in 1 minute
  555. MichielBijl
    16:59
    @StommePoes good luck fitting a meeting in 1 minute
  556. goetsu
    17:01
    if you want something that work both with assistive touch and swiping and rotor your suggestions need to be tabbable I think ortherwise it close the suggestions box
  557. goetsu
    17:02
    furthermore last time I try with VO + down arrow key it's doesn't work if you don't active quick navigation keys
  558. goetsu
    17:02
    anyway removing the tab part is quite easy if you need to
  559. goetsu
    17:03
    I don't pretend it's perfect but at least it work in more case than any other one I found before starting doing it
  560. LjWatson
    17:43
    Thanks for your email PLH. Have replied... mostly to ask whether we should wait to hear from Ade about the browser vendors before I post the email?
  561. LjWatson
    17:47
    Also assume this should go to public-html@ but also to public-webapps@
  562. MichielBijl
    17:49
    @LjWatson Who's PLH?
  563. zakim-robot
    18:05
    [michiel] @karlgroves: re: roi, interesting read.
  564. zakim-robot
    18:06
    [karlgroves] thanks
  565. zakim-robot
    19:11
    [marcozehe] @karlgroves: would you e-mail me that piece, too? Just out of curiosity... I was busy booking flights and hotel for CSUN when you wrote it in @random.
  566. zakim-robot
    19:12
    [karlgroves] NO
  567. zakim-robot
    19:12
    [karlgroves] j/k
  568. zakim-robot
    19:16

    [karlgroves] This is pretty sad. ADA petition hasn't gained more than about 200 new signatures in the last week or so.

    https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/direct-us-department-justice-promptly-release-ada-internet-regulations

  569. StommePoes
    19:35
    I never got a mails about random from the karl...
  570. StommePoes
    19:35
    but I did get a reply to the tenon questions so that's cool
  571. StommePoes
    19:35
    I have no voting rights in teh states or I'd sign, unless they don't mind foreigners signing? :P
  572. zakim-robot
    19:36
    [karlgroves] sending
  573. StommePoes
    19:37
    Hm, so... if I want someone from work to be able to come here via Slack instead of gitter... what URL would I send her?
  574. StommePoes
    19:37
    though she may have a github account, in which case it's gitter.im is fine
  575. LjWatson
    19:37
    FYI we've just posted this about HTML at W3C http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2016Jan/0008.html
  576. StommePoes
    19:38
    thx karl I've got yer mailz
  577. MichielBijl
    19:39
    @StommePoes https://github.com/w3c/a11ySlackers
  578. MichielBijl
    19:39
    And if you want them to join directly: https://gitter.im/w3c/a11ySlackers
  579. zakim-robot
    19:39
    [joe-watkins] I'm researching the topic of 3rd party web agencies and a11y lawsuits.. do 'Hold Harmless' clauses and the likes in contracts protect agencies enough when they do work for a company and that company gets sued? I'm hoping not :simple_smile: Some liability would be nice. Anyone have any insight?
  580. LjWatson
    19:40
    @Joe-Watkins it wouldn't here in the UK, but you're in the US?
  581. zakim-robot
    19:41
    [joe-watkins] @ljwatson: thanks! yes US law
  582. zakim-robot
    19:43
    [joe-watkins] The bad press would probably be enough but I'd love to see some agency-level buy in.
  583. StommePoes
    19:43
    Michiel that's github URL, that's the slack address?? interesting
  584. StommePoes
    19:43
    Heather do you see me?
  585. StommePoes
    19:45
    @joe-watkins Lainey Feingold might be the one to ask
  586. StommePoes
    19:46
    although someone... can't remember who, but just saw it recently on twitter, was keeping a lawsuit list
  587. zakim-robot
    19:47
    [joe-watkins] :simple_smile: tnx! I'll reach out to Lainey.
  588. MichielBijl
    21:31
    @StommePoes Gitter urls are gitter.im/ + owner/ + repo/room name
  589. StommePoes
    21:32
    I just thought my colleague had a slack but not a github account, but wasn't sure what the slack URL was
  590. StommePoes
    21:32
    I still don't know how to use slack. But anyway, I guess she did have a github login
  591. MichielBijl
    22:03
    Oh crap
  592. MichielBijl
    22:03
    Sorry, my brain must have been a sleep.
  593. MichielBijl
    22:03
    The Slack URL is: https://web-a11y.slack.com/
  594. MichielBijl
    22:04
    To join the Slack thing: http://web-a11y.herokuapp.com/
  595. StommePoes
    23:00
    aha
  596. StommePoes
    23:00
    cool
  597. StommePoes
    23:01
    hey Steve Buell is able to come to CSUN!
  598. StommePoes
    23:01
    teh awesomes
  599. StommePoes
    23:06
    tot morgenz
  600. zakim-robot
    23:48
    [karlgroves] w00t! Steve’s a great guy
  601. MichielBijl
    23:52
    I'm going to meet so many people at CSUN that I'll probably forget to do anything else…
  602. jnurthen
    23:57
    i'm looking forward to ACCESSIBEER
  603. jnurthen
    23:57
    https://gitter.im/metzessible/ACCESSIBEER?utm_source=share-link&utm_medium=link&utm_campaign=share-link
  604. MichielBijl
    23:58
    @LjWatson I get an error on my HTML PR: w3c/html#2