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A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 8th of February 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 08:20
    Good morning slackers!
  2. jkva
    Feb 08 08:28
    Morning @MichielBijl !
  3. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 08:55
    Godmorgen Job :)
  4. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 13:07
    For those that have trouble—or just want to learn about it—with alt texts, an alt text decision tree: https://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/images/decision-tree/
  5. jkva
    Feb 08 13:21
    @MichielBijl++ nice reference
  6. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 13:22
    Don't thank me, thank @yatil, he created it :)
  7. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 13:22
    With some flexbox love from that Faulkner dude I believe
  8. jkva
    Feb 08 13:23
    @yatil++, @MichielBijl-- # happy now =P
  9. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 13:23
    :D
  10. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 13:23
    :+1:
  11. jkva
    Feb 08 13:23
    Equilibrium restored
  12. powrsurg
    Feb 08 14:32
    Shouldn't that decision tree be an ordered list, not an unordered list?
  13. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 14:34
    It should.
  14. powrsurg
    Feb 08 14:38
    you could maybe argue for a definition list, but I think ordered list is more appropriate
  15. powrsurg
    Feb 08 14:38
    heh, an ordered list of definition lists!
  16. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 14:38
    An ordered list should do fine.
  17. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 14:39
    I've been working on flowchart a11y: https://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/images/decision-tree/
  18. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 14:39
    Err
  19. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 14:39
    dir.rawr.eu/flowchart.html
  20. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 14:39
    I do still have to document my findings
  21. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 14:46
    I guess ze german is right.
  22. jkva
    Feb 08 14:46
    ja genau richtig!
  23. powrsurg
    Feb 08 14:48
    @MichielBijl how come Chrome and Firefox are adding a focusring when clicking on those elements when they have tabindex="-1"? I could understand 0, but not -1.
  24. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 14:48
    They all do AFAIK
  25. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 14:48
    Don't necessarily agree with it, but it happens :(
  26. powrsurg
    Feb 08 14:49
    Never noticed that ...
  27. powrsurg @powrsurg is learning too much for this early monday morning and not enough coffee in him
  28. MichielBijl @MichielBijl gives Brian some coffee
  29. jkva @jkva spikes the coffee
  30. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 14:54
    Not sure how that helps him learn stuff
  31. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 14:54
    Maybe it'll teach him not to trust you on Monday mornings :P
  32. jkva
    Feb 08 14:54
    Or ever =)
  33. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 14:57
    You seem like a trustworthy guy ;)
  34. jkva
    Feb 08 14:57
    Sure! Want to buy kidneys?
  35. powrsurg @powrsurg coffees @jkva's spikes
  36. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 14:58
    Hmm, last time I bought kidneys online they didn't taste so good…
  37. jkva
    Feb 08 15:38
    Digital Accessibility podcast EP1 is out - http://www.lyndondunbar.com/season-1-episode-1-introduction/
  38. StommePoes
    Feb 08 16:16
    @powrsurg it's a known thing, mostly noticeable in Chrome because its outline is pretty obvious, but so this is the one place where it's okay to do thingie-with-neg-tabindex:focus {outline:0}
  39. powrsurg
    Feb 08 16:21
    I guess it makes sense. It may be hard to detect if it should add focus because JS was called to add focus vs normal click focusing
  40. stacycarston
    Feb 08 17:08
    @stevefaulkner curious if you ever got a chance to look into the difference between how screenreaders handle aria-live assertive and polite?
  41. stevefaulkner
    Feb 08 17:15
    hi @stacycarston, sorry yeah i did start looking into it, but wandered off elsewhere, I got some subtle adhoc differences between output for polite vs assertive, using these test pages http://accessibleajax.clcworld.net/simple/live_polite.htm & http://accessibleajax.clcworld.net/simple/live_assertive.htm using JAWS + firefox found that interruption occured (after using arrow down to start reading content) mid paragraph for assertive, but would occur at end of paragraph for polite.
  42. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 17:17
    Could you paste those again? Edits don't come through to IRC :(
  43. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 17:24
    Just shows http to me. I'll go to Gitter.
  44. stacycarston
    Feb 08 17:33
    @stevefaulkner thank you, i'll check those out!
  45. stevefaulkner
    Feb 08 17:35
    @MichielBijl are you talking to me?
  46. MichielBijl @MichielBijl sees Steve in Robert DeNiro style (but with an ozzie accent) saying that to himself in the mirror
  47. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 17:36
    Yeah I was, but I got them via the gitters
  48. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 17:43
    @stevefaulkner @stacycarston, bit buggy in VoiceOver (Safari 9, OS X 10.10): http://dir.rawr.eu/vo-live-polite-repeat-bug.mov
  49. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 17:43
    That's when I hit VO+A.
  50. powrsurg
    Feb 08 18:28
    Any chance anyone here knows if any of the default playback services for AWS live streaming actually have accessibility support built in, or is this going to be an uphill battle?
  51. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 18:30
    What is AWS?
  52. powrsurg
    Feb 08 18:31
    Amazon Web Services
  53. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 18:31
    Ah, right.
  54. powrsurg
    Feb 08 18:32
    we're going to be getting into doing video hosting and I just know there will be accessibility issues. I know we need a video transcript, video description, a UI that lets you pause and set the volume ... stuff like that
  55. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 18:34
    But that's a video player right? I didn't know Amazon did streaming too. If you're using S3 you can just build/use an accessible player :)
  56. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 18:34
    But I'll shut up as I don't know much about Amazon and what they do.
  57. powrsurg
    Feb 08 18:36
    Right, I was wondering if people here knew if the best advice was to build or if the ones they recommended were decent enough.
  58. powrsurg
    Feb 08 18:36
    right now I'm at the point where I'm still researching what type of streaming we need ... want to support the most we can ... it'll be a pain I imagine
  59. powrsurg
    Feb 08 19:11
    okay, JW Player says they support web VTT and keyboard controls ... except you can't get to the closed caption button via the keyboard ...
  60. jnurthen
    Feb 08 19:12
    what browser - and what version? the flash version or the HTML5 version?
  61. powrsurg
    Feb 08 19:14
    I'm just testing on the support page for closed caption: https://support.jwplayer.com/customer/portal/articles/1407438-adding-closed-captions
  62. powrsurg
    Feb 08 19:14
    I'm testing in Firefox which is using the HTML5 version
  63. powrsurg
    Feb 08 19:14
    closed caption isn't listed on the list of keyboard shortcuts ... https://support.jwplayer.com/customer/portal/articles/1597259-keyboard-shortcuts
  64. powrsurg
    Feb 08 19:15
    captioning does seem to work if you click it
  65. jnurthen
    Feb 08 19:15
    hmm - they claim it is accessible but i haven't looked at the latest version
  66. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 19:16
    Seems it's time to link to this again: http://www.iheni.com/accessible-media-player-resources/
  67. powrsurg
    Feb 08 19:21
    honestly, I was surprised at how accessible it is ...
  68. powrsurg
    Feb 08 19:21
    404 on " Accessible JW Player"
  69. zakim-robot
    Feb 08 19:31
    [alanmbarr] I have a question. I have a cms where users upload pictures and they have an option to add alt text. A user is requesting that altText if empty auto default to the file name of the image being used. Is this helpful at all to default to?
  70. powrsurg
    Feb 08 19:35
    would a file name be helpful to you? and how do you know that it was left blank on accident and not that it was appropriately left blank?
  71. powrsurg
    Feb 08 19:36
    stealing from @yatil (and mentioned by @MichielBijl earlier today) https://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/images/decision-tree/
  72. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 19:37
    @alanmbarr, you can forward your question to rwkjthsjgdfkgkuhg.jpg: questions@bad-alt-text.org
  73. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 19:38
    Or, you could forward it to E-mail: questions@good-alt-text.org ;)
  74. zakim-robot
    Feb 08 19:48
    [alanmbarr] @michiel: not sure i understand your humor?
  75. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 19:49
    Yeah sorry about that.
  76. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 19:49
    Point is, filenames almost never make sense.
  77. zakim-robot
    Feb 08 19:50
    [alanmbarr] yeah i would have appreciated a more straight forward answer. I don't know you so I can't know whether you're being sarcastic to me or just unwelcoming.
  78. zakim-robot
    Feb 08 19:50
    [alanmbarr] You're correct and I appreciate your answer.
  79. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 19:51
    it wouldn't be very accessible of me to be unwelcoming, and I would never do that :)
  80. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 19:51
    But you're right; I just have questionable people skills.
  81. zakim-robot
    Feb 08 19:58
    [deborah_kaplan] @alanmbarr: General rule is that default alt is probably not a good idea, although I suppose technically if an image contains exim metadata you could default to the image title. But given how often the exim is also terrible, it's still not a good idea.
  82. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 19:58
    And defaults don't take context into account :)
  83. zakim-robot
    Feb 08 19:59
    [deborah_kaplan] filename isn't useful (the number of times when a person who can't see the image wants to know the filename are close to nil). default of "" isn't good, Because then a screen reader user won't even know there was an image there, and the blank treats the image as decorative,
  84. zakim-robot
    Feb 08 19:59
    [deborah_kaplan] and then, yeah, what michiel just said,
  85. zakim-robot
    Feb 08 20:01
    [deborah_kaplan] in context, is important for this image to be labeled "White woman holding a figurine", "glittering low-cut Oscar De La Renta gown", or "Helen Mirren receiving an Oscar"? Depending on the context of the page the user is going to need to know one of those things.
  86. jnurthen
    Feb 08 20:01
    if the user has refused to supply alt text then IMO you should just not add the alt attribute at all.
  87. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 20:02
    @jnurthen that would default to the filepath + filename
  88. jnurthen
    Feb 08 20:02
    at least then checking tools will be able to find the image with an issue.
  89. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 20:02
    That is true
  90. jnurthen
    Feb 08 20:02
    by adding something you end up covering up an accessibility error
  91. garcialo
    Feb 08 20:02
    +1
  92. jnurthen
    Feb 08 20:03
    should also probably read this - https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/embedded-content-0.html#guidance-for-markup-generators
  93. zakim-robot
    Feb 08 20:03
    [deborah_kaplan] agreed. although with the caveat that when I designed a pop up for this, I thought about adding a checkbox for "is this image decorative?" that would create alt="", But then we decided it would add option fatigue and was hard to explain in a brief dialog box. The theory was if it really was decorative and knowledgeable users could add alt="" themselves.
  94. jnurthen
    Feb 08 20:04
    I think there should be the "this is decorative" option. IIRC thunderbird does it this way when adding an image
  95. garcialo
    Feb 08 20:04
    It's a good idea in theory, but "decorative" is a bit jargony in the context of a11y
  96. zakim-robot
    Feb 08 20:05
    [deborah_kaplan] yeah, We couldn't come up with a quick way to make it really clear in a brief dialog box what "decorative" means
  97. jnurthen
    Feb 08 20:05
    yeah - the terminology really depends on the audience
  98. garcialo
    Feb 08 20:07
    This sounds so ugly, but maybe something like "If this image fails to display, what information would be missing from the page?" and then provide an input that could become a potential alt (once vetted by a human) and have a checkbox for "None" that could set it to alt=""...but yeah, I think it's a cumbersome idea.
  99. garcialo
    Feb 08 20:08
    There's got to be a nice way of doing it.
  100. zakim-robot
    Feb 08 20:09
    [deborah_kaplan] Image upload dialog (without decorative alt alternative)
  101. zakim-robot
    Feb 08 20:09
    [deborah_kaplan] Image upload dialog (without decorative alt alternative)
  102. zakim-robot
    Feb 08 20:10
    [deborah_kaplan] Longdesc: :smile:
    Title: Insert Image
    Field: Image from URL:
    Help text: Example: http://www.example.com/some-picture.jpg
    Field: Short Description:
    Help text: This description is used by screenreaders, some mobile devices, and when images are turned off in your browser. Please fill it out! We have [tips on writing good descriptions.v']
  103. jnurthen
    Feb 08 20:11
    there is a weird radio button too.... I don't understand it
  104. zakim-robot
    Feb 08 20:11
    [deborah_kaplan] sorry, don't know why that went through twice
  105. zakim-robot
    Feb 08 20:11
    [deborah_kaplan] also not sure why the radio button! I need to fix that.
  106. zakim-robot
    Feb 08 20:12
    [deborah_kaplan] The main thing I like about it is the jargon free explanation of alt which links to a much longer help text that explains context.
  107. jnurthen
    Feb 08 20:13
    yes - agree that is nice - especially if the target is content developers...
  108. zakim-robot
    Feb 08 20:14
    [deborah_kaplan] yeah, it's for a social media tool, so we had to assume not accessibility knowledge, and also a certain amount of "why would I want *that*"?
  109. garcialo
    Feb 08 20:27
    Oh yeah, you could just tell them what it's for instead of trying to trick them. =p
  110. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 22:12
    “If you were reading this page to your children over the phone, how would you describe this image to them?”
  111. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 22:14
    Never mind, I tried to make it funny, but it didn't really work out.
  112. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 22:14
    Guess I ran out of funnies early today.
  113. jnurthen
    Feb 08 22:18
    did I miss some earlier in the day ;)
  114. MichielBijl
    Feb 08 22:38
    Yes, around 4PM UTC+1
  115. zakim-robot
    Feb 08 22:49
    [stefsull] Have any of you built an accessible tree grid? The examples given here are both inaccessible (oddly): https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#treegrid
  116. jnurthen
    Feb 08 22:51
    When that was written we couldn't find anything that was referencable which actually worked
  117. jnurthen
    Feb 08 22:53
    I believe our one actually works pretty well now.... when the guide was written it hadn't been aria enabled yet but I believe it works ok no (at least with JAWS and FF) - http://jdevadf.oracle.com/adf-richclient-demo/faces/components/treeTable.jspx
  118. zakim-robot
    Feb 08 23:06
    [stefsull] thank you @jnurthen
  119. jnurthen
    Feb 08 23:07
    please let me know about any major problems and I'll log bugs