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A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 22nd of April 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 22 00:47
    [scottohara] @jnurthen. Blockquotes for your potentially big text list
  2. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 22 01:46
    thanks @scottohara although I have seen blockquote misused for headers so I'm still going to flag those as warnings.
  3. mikaelR
    @cr2a-graphique
    Apr 22 07:04
    morning slackers !
  4. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 22 08:19
    Morning!
  5. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Apr 22 10:39
    afternoon almost
  6. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Apr 22 10:39
    @jnurthen thanks for the html5acc issues
  7. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 22 10:41
    I thought it was called html5ass?
  8. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Apr 22 10:47
    ASS = Accessibility Support Score
  9. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 22 10:59
    Right
  10. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 22 11:01
    Maybe start something called Central Usability Notes fro Testing.
  11. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 22 11:01
    for*
  12. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:03
    I like it
  13. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:26
    So if a website wants to put the navigation menu at the bottom in the source code because it's better for mobile users, while the menu is visually plaved at the top, what are solutions to not confuzling the hell out of sighted keyboarders?
  14. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:27
    One thing I've thought of is, for any solution, listening for keystrokes.
  15. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:28
    After reading some of the touchy problems out there by Patrick Lauke, I'm not certain that's always foolproof, but I'm already doing it to remove fugly focus styles I add to sites for keyboard focus
  16. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:28
    (so when mice click, no keyboardy-fugliness to spoil the view of the Grafix Overlords)
  17. David Hund
    @davidhund
    Apr 22 11:29
    o hai
  18. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:29
    So if we were listening for keystrokes, we'd start assuming we have some kind of keyboard user. We could next listen for viewport width, but I don't think that's useful if the problem is really only affecting large-screened keyboarders
  19. David Hund
    @davidhund
    Apr 22 11:30
    Do simple skip-links not solve this issue? Top of page: skip to nav and after nav: skip-to-content?
  20. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:30
    Then based on that I'd either see if I could 1) with Javascript, set positive tabindices on the menu items. I would have to test if then the next focusable after the last menu item is automatically the first content link, and if that works backwards with Shift-Tab. If it doesn't work that nicely, positive indices are out, as normally they suck balls
  21. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 22 11:30
    [scottohara] ^ this or can you not visually reorder the navigation to the bottom of the page while keeping it at the top of the DOM?
  22. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:31
    A skip link prevents a user from needing to tab through the whole page first, but it's still going to have a message that confuses the first-time user with my cognitive deficits
  23. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:31
    It's at the bottom of the DOM now, and being visually brought to the top.
  24. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:31
    So when I start tabbing, I don't see my focus up there and can't tell why
  25. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 22 11:32

    [karlgroves] >this (being skip links) or can you not visually reorder the navigation to the bottom of the page while keeping it at the top of the DOM?

    Now you have the exact opposite problem

  26. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:32
    also, focus styles are quite mild so it's very easy to miss what's going on. Basically I was tabbing and shifttabbing all over trying to figure out why I couldn't get to the menu... as the page scrolled down I saw i was obviously going down the page
  27. David Hund
    @davidhund
    Apr 22 11:32
    I believe putting nav behind content in DOM was to prevent having to tab through millions of nav items to reach content...
  28. David Hund
    @davidhund
    Apr 22 11:32
    It's mainly 'visually' confusing with skip links
  29. David Hund
    @davidhund
    Apr 22 11:32
    no?
  30. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:32
    7 nav items
  31. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 22 11:32
    [karlgroves] OK, so what about sighted users who expect to get to that content first?
  32. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:33
    And a skip link there would make more sense, because 7 tabs vs a whole pages worth is a big differnece
  33. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:33
    Karl, that's where I had trouble-- even if I were given a skip link (which WOULD help, yes), I would be stupidly confused
  34. David Hund
    @davidhund
    Apr 22 11:33
    For this case (CSSDay site) I'd probably put nav first, but skip-links (nav/content) would not hurt.
  35. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:33
    because I am an easily confused and frustrated person
  36. David Hund
    @davidhund
    Apr 22 11:33
    Also: clear(!) focus styles always
  37. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:33
    which maybe isn't the sort who should be on a website like that :)
  38. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 22 11:34
    [karlgroves] re: putting nav at the end: Now they have to tab through all the content to the navigation. Also, it becomes confusing/ frustrating to people who want to get to the nav
  39. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:34
    David: yes whether nav was first or last, I would still want skip links, because they're great
  40. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 22 11:34
    [karlgroves] This is why landmarks are so powerful
  41. David Hund
    @davidhund
    Apr 22 11:34
    Sure, thats why skip-links
  42. David Hund
    @davidhund
    Apr 22 11:34
    So: skip-link-all-the-things with clear focus-styles
  43. David Hund
    @davidhund
    Apr 22 11:34
    :)
  44. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:34
    My only issue with patching up this particular site only with skip links is the cognitive issue of, why am I being offered to skip TO the navigation? I would probably mis-read that the first time
  45. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:34
    but it's not a disaster
  46. David Hund
    @davidhund
    Apr 22 11:35
    I understand
  47. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:35
    it's kinda like, you have access to a thing but you're reqiured to do a sudoku first
  48. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:35
    which is annoying, but not per se inaccessible.
  49. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:35
    And clearer focus styles, yes
  50. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:35
    they can do that without needing to make it fuglier for mice
  51. David Hund
    @davidhund
    Apr 22 11:36
    yes!
  52. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:36
    I use a little javascript to let CSS remove extra focus styles from mousers (so those would just get the current dotted outline if their browser puts focus on clickables post-click)
  53. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:36
    But, if the nav MUST be last in the DOM and MUST be shown at the top, then my most ideal would be to use JS to detect keyboard and change the focus order so it makes visual sense
  54. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:37
    it's more work, more complicated, more code that could break, but I would look into it at elast
  55. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:37
    least
  56. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:37
    because then no user has to think twice
  57. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:37
    or even once
  58. David Hund
    @davidhund
    Apr 22 11:37
    Catching keyboard events etc could open up a whole 'nother can of worms IMO.
  59. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:37
    I like not needing to think to use a web site
  60. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:37
    yes it oculd
  61. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:37
    could
  62. David Hund
    @davidhund
    Apr 22 11:37
    meh 'it depends' :-)
  63. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:38
    Esp with today's nasty frameworked sites, we're already writing a lot of JS just to manage focus
  64. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:38
    just to make sure focus goes to the right place
  65. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:38
    which is why it's more ideal to have the HTML correct... but as I said, if it was insisted that we couldn't do things the right way, I would do extra work to make the non-right-way make less work for stupids like me.
  66. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:38
    Means I'm selfish I know, but thta
  67. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:39
    that's where all my a11y interest comes from I think.
  68. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:43
    "[karlgroves] This is why landmarks are so powerful" <-- not for me
  69. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:44
    landmarks could be powerful if everyone got to enjoy them, not just SR users.
  70. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 22 11:44
    [karlgroves] true
  71. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:45
    in fact, the site may have landmarks
  72. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 22 11:45
    [karlgroves] contemplates a landmark browser extension
  73. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:45
    it has unnamed nav landmark
  74. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:45
    yeah I heard mozilla was considering it
  75. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:46
    but it would be a plugin
  76. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:46
    meaning landmarks are still basically a SR-only sort of thing. If I'm using FF and want super keyboard powers, I'd go whole-hog and use vimperator or something
  77. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:47
    meaning something that only navv'd by landmarks would be way less appealing.. unless it was some sort of plugin that worked on, like, all major browsers.
  78. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 11:47
    That could go somewhere, but hard to write and update.
  79. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 22 12:38
    StommePoes, just move the node with JS.
  80. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 22 12:38
    That solves it.
  81. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 22 12:38
    No need to do weird stuff.
  82. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 22 12:38
    It's probably build in JS anyway.
  83. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 14:06
    They want it in another place though.
  84. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 14:06
    That is, they don't want the node moved, but I want sane keyboarding.
  85. mikaelR
    @cr2a-graphique
    Apr 22 14:07
    yep here, can anybody say me how the (keyboard) arrow are activate in this exemple : http://hanshillen.github.io/jqtest/#goto_carousel
    when we focus first img
  86. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 14:08
    I hit spacebar
  87. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 14:08
    well no, when I'm focussed on the imge and I want to use the arrows, i tabbed to the arrow first
  88. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 14:08
    I shift-tabbed back and tabbed forward a bit to see where I could go
  89. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 14:09
    I could not focus on the back arrow so I tabbed over to the right arrow and hit space
  90. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 14:09
    I dunno if all keyboarders would try with space first
  91. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 14:09
    The weird thing is my focus gets jumped to teh beginning or end of the page sometimes
  92. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 14:09
    I haven't figured out why yet
  93. mikaelR
    @cr2a-graphique
    Apr 22 14:10
    k thks
  94. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 14:11
    @hansHillen le ping
  95. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 22 14:28
    @StommePoes I doubt he'd be around at this time in NZ, 2:30am
  96. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 22 14:28
    I often wonder if he uses the internet.
  97. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 22 14:29
    I think Steve just sends him code to audit on a usb stick via the mail…
  98. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 22 14:31
    @StommePoes while positive tabindex is normally bad I don't see why putting (say) tabindex = 1 on everything which is focusable in that footer/header thingy wouldn't work.
  99. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Apr 22 14:48
    @StommePoes i have communicated your desire for and audience with hansome
  100. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 22 14:49
    =D
  101. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 22 14:49
    These TPG nicknames are out of control!
  102. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Apr 22 15:49
    there's cedders and gezmond and henny penny and watters! and hansome and putz and brand karl and buffalo billy can and gra gra and Charlie Farlie
    and mitch - at least in my mind
  103. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Apr 22 15:50
    @jkva ^^
  104. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 22 15:50
    [deborah_kaplan] I'm trying to figure out if I can make the obvious joke about nicknames without actually being partisan or bringing politics into the conversation
  105. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Apr 22 15:50
    whats the obvious joke?
  106. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Apr 22 15:51
    making names up for people helps keep me sane
  107. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 22 15:51
    [deborah_kaplan] just something about the adjective + name nicknames a US political candidate gives to everybody
  108. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 22 15:51
    [deborah_kaplan] But I'm not getting them.
  109. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 22 15:52
    [deborah_kaplan] so wait, stevefaulkner, what's your nickname?
  110. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Apr 22 15:52
    oh US stuff, i live in a cave in england
  111. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 22 15:52
    [deborah_kaplan] well your politicians throw each other out of parliament for using nicknames
  112. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Apr 22 15:53
    stevo, fuckner, little stevie are but a few i have been called
  113. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Apr 22 15:53
    oh do they, i grew up watching australian politics it was quite brutal at times
  114. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Apr 22 16:03
    @deborahgu https://youtu.be/NdAoQvqh7eY
  115. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 22 16:05
    [deborah_kaplan] @stevefaulkner, wow US politics would be so much better if Congress just hung it all out in the open like that
  116. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 22 18:24
    I love that I just spent the entire week trying to figure out why this video player we were all set to release wasn't working in Android. Dug deep into the code. Understood the problem. Submitted an issue. Got half way through developing a patch for it. Then someone pointed out that it needed <video crossorigin="use-credentials"> to work. I had <video crossorigin="anonymous"> for some reason I don't even remember at this point
  117. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 22 21:03
    @powrsurg Ah, the life of a developer