Archive index

A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 11th of May 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 00:05
    amandarush: it will get done in the coming weeks—W3C loves its bureaucracy.
  2. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 01:08
    That it does.
  3. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:20
    Grmphrfff
  4. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 02:21
    What is going on?
  5. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:29
    It's 4:28 and I'm working; that's what's going on :P
  6. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:29
    And I have to give a workshop on Friday 😱
  7. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:29
    On the Grid Layout spec that I haven't read yet…
  8. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:29
    Fun times!
  9. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:30
    On the plus side, I get to go Iron Man and answer a potential “when did you become an expert on the Grid Layout spec?” question on Friday with “Last night.”
  10. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:32
    Captain, let's go Iron Man!
  11. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 02:32
    Sorry. I've just been out for drinks with Shane and am a little buzzed.
  12. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:33
    No problem.
  13. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 02:34
    My wife is on a plane to AMS right now.
  14. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:37
    Right, she's visiting Eindhoven right?
  15. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 02:37
    I think in ams until Monday. Then Philips in Eindhoven.
  16. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 02:39
    I think if trump gets elected we will move to holland.
  17. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:40
    Good move.
  18. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:40
    It's not too shabby.
  19. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:40
    I'm leaving though…
  20. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 02:40
    Where to?
  21. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:40
    We've found a place in Oxford that we really like :)
  22. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:40
    Not signed yet, but looks good anyway.
  23. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 02:40
    Ugh. U.K.
  24. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:40
    Just, y'know, expensive :x
  25. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 02:41
    I ran away from there.
  26. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:41
    Yeah, don't really fancy going there, but Mathilde works for the Oxford uni. So I don't have much choice in the matter :P
  27. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 02:41
    I thought she was moving elsewhere.
  28. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:42
    Not for now, but might in the future.
  29. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:42
    Lund or Grenoble is still an option next year.
  30. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 02:42
    Oxford is not a bad city for the uk. I guess
  31. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:42
    That's why we're renting a furnished place.
  32. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:42
    Not bad, just bloody expensive.
  33. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 02:43
    Although I always preferred Cambridge until they rejected me.
  34. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 02:44
    I'm sure Oxford rents are cheap compared to the Bay Area.
  35. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:44
    Yeah I guess.
  36. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:44
    Where do those start?
  37. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:44
    $2k for 20sq meters or something?
  38. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:45
    We're looking at £1.5k for 100 square meters.
  39. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 02:45
    In SF or other cities?
  40. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:45
    SF.
  41. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 02:45
    I think a 1br is about 3k there now.
  42. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 02:46
    But I'm not sure really. I just pay my mortgage.
  43. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:46
    Yeah okay
  44. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 02:47
    And the 3k is in kind of a middle neighborhood. If you want somewhere good it is more.
  45. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:47
    I don't really feel like selling and buying a house every three/four years.
  46. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 02:47
    Even in my "suburb" a 1bd is about 2k
  47. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:47
    Pfff
  48. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 02:48
    For my house my mortgage isn't that much more than that.
  49. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 02:49
    I see you are talking at id24. Can I heckle again?
  50. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:49
    Well, I currently spend 500€ a month on plane tickets :P
  51. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:49
    Yeah, let's talk actual a11y stuff
  52. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:50
    I can see about adding you to my talk for the occasional heckle ;)
  53. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 02:50
    I doubt I will watch as I think it is at some ridiculous time in the morning.
  54. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:50
    But I do hope to finish it a bit quicker than at CSUN :P
  55. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:51
    You're in EDT?
  56. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:52
    I'll ask if they can move me to the evening time.
  57. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:52
    On the other hand, that means I have to stay up even longer before giving my talk :P
  58. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 02:52
    Normally I am PDT but at the moment I am central time?
  59. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 02:52
    But back home tomorrow.
  60. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:52
    Okay, I'm currently at 6am UCT
  61. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:53
    So, would be midnight for you right?
  62. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 02:53
    No idea but it is 10pm here.
  63. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 02:53
    I'm in Minneapolis.
  64. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 02:53
    At home it would be 8pm
  65. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:54
    Prrff, almost 5am here -.-
  66. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 02:55
    Ah. I get it. Yeah 6am utc is midnight I think on the west coast.
  67. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 02:55
    And my wife will be away so I will have to deal with the kids in the morning so there is no way I am staying up.
  68. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:55
    Hehe
  69. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:56
    Well, we're using Hangouts, so you can watch later.
  70. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 02:56
    Yeah. They promised that last year but the videos never turned up.
  71. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:56
    :(
  72. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:56
    Did they use that crap app from 2014?
  73. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:57
    If so, I would not be surprised they didn't turn up; because audio was all messed up.
  74. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 02:57
    Google Hangouts is automatically available afterwards as far as I know.
  75. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 02:58
    Good to know.
  76. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 02:58
    I'm glad I'm not doing anything. Been giving training classes for the last 2 days. Exhausting.
  77. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 02:58
    And take
  78. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 03:00
    I can imagine.
  79. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 03:01
    still. Hopefully I am spreading a good message.
  80. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 03:02
    I might be missing part of your message.
  81. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 03:02
    I only saw “And take”
  82. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 03:02
    that was the iphone client being shit
  83. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 03:03
    i was typing someting and got a txt message. switched to it and it post s whatever you are typing
  84. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 03:03
    no idea what i was going to say
  85. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 03:03
    Hehe, no matter.
  86. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 03:04
    I'm calling it quits for tonight.
  87. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 03:04
    you still call it tonight at 5am?
  88. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 03:04
    It's night time init?
  89. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 03:04
    i am calling it quits too. Have a flight home in the morning
  90. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 11 03:05
    sleep well
  91. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 03:05
    0:00-6:00 = night, 6:00-12:00 = morning, 12:00-18:00 = afternoon, 18:00-0:00 = evening
  92. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 03:05
    Good night :)
  93. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 07:59
    Morning slackers!
  94. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 11 07:59
    [jitendra] morning
  95. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 11 08:02
    o/
  96. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 11 08:12
    [dean] Tritanopia
  97. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 08:14
    Crap, I changed the name of my login screen for my blog, now I can't remember what I changed it to…
  98. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 11 08:17
    Time to brute-force it
  99. jkva @jkva grumbles about box-sizing:border-box and old IE
  100. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 09:00
    Nah, can just look it up in DB.
  101. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 11 09:11
    The more I read up on it, the more I wonder if doing even the slightest work to support IE[6,7,8] is a fool's errand.
  102. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 09:15
    Make it usable, not pretty.
  103. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 09:15
    Should be easy enough.
  104. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 11 09:17
    That's the approach right now
  105. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 11 11:08
    I wonder what some designers I've met got taught in school that makes them think that low contrast == good aesthetics
  106. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 11:11
    It's a very effective method to hide text you don't really want on the page.
  107. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 11 11:12
    +5 insightful. Are you implying they do not see text as part of the design?
  108. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 11 11:12
    or "content", rather
  109. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 11:12
    If it's not lorem ipsum it's not real.
  110. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 11 11:12
    I need to stop…
  111. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 11 11:14
    muaha
  112. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 11 13:21
    do you actually have IE6 users?
  113. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 11 13:22
    We're HTTPS only and have high SSL settings to protect from heartbleed and the like. That means we literally cannot even make IE6 load.
  114. Jason Day
    @jasonday
    May 11 13:31
    Good morning all
  115. Jason Day
    @jasonday
    May 11 13:33
    Anyone mind taking my utility plugin for a spin: http://jasonday.github.io/announceThis/ ?
  116. Jason Day
    @jasonday
    May 11 13:33
    It's a plugin to create aria-live regions & messages on the fly
  117. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 11 14:25
    [dean] Bumping my question ;) - brand team have two colours which pass WCAG AA contrast & color blindness…. except for the 0.01% with Tritanopia. Any advice?
  118. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 11 14:41
    Are there actually specific tests for the color blindness? I've always taken screenshots and passed it through online tools and manually looked at the results to determine if they worked well enough.
  119. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 11 14:44
    @jasonday that worked for me in NVDA/Firefox. Interestingly Firefox announced the number of times the alert came up
  120. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 11 14:44
    part of me did expect it to also display an alert on the screen too
  121. Jason Day
    @jasonday
    May 11 14:44
    There's a counter that's appended to each message (only for demo purposes)
  122. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 11 14:44
    but that was me not reading anything and just clicking buttons :p
  123. Jason Day
    @jasonday
    May 11 14:45
    and for the alerts, I figure this plugin is specifically for inserting messaging where a developer needs
  124. Jason Day
    @jasonday
    May 11 14:46
    so if you were creating a change in context, you could use this plugin to insert messaging
  125. Jason Day
    @jasonday
    May 11 14:47
    I developed it with a specific use in mind - on our site when you are browsing products, if you click a filter such as 'blue', a new result set of products replaces the current view.
  126. Jason Day
    @jasonday
    May 11 14:48
    I needed a way to communicate a message such as 'updating results' to a screenreader user when they engage with filters
  127. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 11 14:50
    [dean] I use Color Oracle to reproduce
  128. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 11 14:51
    This definitely works for that use case. I just think that you may get more usage if you added something that made it work with elements that are visually on a page as well. Yes, a dev could simply add the necessary ARIA attributes, but there are a lot of devs that don't know enough about that stuff but see a library that they can plug in to make it work better for screen readers they'll use it.
  129. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 11 14:52
    Basically, if the id already existed on the page use that and the text inside as a message (if one wasn't already there). And again, that's just a suggestion that may get it used more. Your use case definitely has value, and seemed to work for me in my testing.
  130. Jason Day
    @jasonday
    May 11 14:52
    Good point. I'll take a look.
  131. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 11 15:02
    So I'm reading the spec for progressbars and it looks like they're "labelable" elemnets like inputs... yet all the examples I'm seeing are using divs or p's or whatever with aria-labelledby
  132. Amanda Rush
    @amandarush
    May 11 15:12
    Morning slackers. Late start, but had to coffee. Or nobody gets any code or documentation or support. :P
  133. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 11 15:13
    We use the <progressbar> element. But I don't remember if it has a label on it
  134. Amanda Rush
    @amandarush
    May 11 15:14
    This plugin that lets devs create messages on the fly is great. I have a filterable portfolio on my site, and would like to alert screen reader users when the results change after they activate a particular button. Thanks!
  135. Jason Day
    @jasonday
    May 11 15:15
    Glad it might be useful. Please let me know if you find any issues (beyond the typical browser/screenreader issues with things like aria-atomic)
  136. Amanda Rush
    @amandarush
    May 11 15:19
    Will let you know. I need to fork it and, no promises, but I will submit pull reqs if I find anything.
  137. Jason Day
    @jasonday
    May 11 20:01
    quiet day around here.
  138. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 11 20:03
    sorry
  139. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 11 20:03
    I think there is a conference going on. The cool people are probably there.
  140. Jason Day
    @jasonday
    May 11 20:03
    What conference? I have AEA next week.
  141. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 11 20:19
    whatever #btconf is
  142. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 11 20:20
    so ppk and bruce lawson talk about it
  143. Jason Day
    @jasonday
    May 11 20:20
    and a quick search tells me "Beyond Tellerand", a German web dev conference
  144. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 11 20:43
    I only hear raves about btconf
  145. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 11 20:44
    I wonder if VO today still needs a progressbar to be focusable for it to reach the value... someone mentioned in their comments/docs that it was necessary, but they didn't state which version of VO or what year the progressbar example was created...
  146. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 11 20:54
    [marcysutton] Beyond Tellerrand is indeed awesome :)
  147. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 11 21:51
    [evanleach] Hello! I’m working on a redesign of Eventbrite’s forms and I have questions!
  148. Jason Day
    @jasonday
    May 11 21:51
    sure - what questions do you have?
  149. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 11 22:07
    [evanleach] I’ll use an example to ask my question. An event organizer creates a ticket on Eventbrite and we name it 'General Admission’ by default. If the user clears this required field we could A) reveal an error state immediately while the field is in focus, but empty, or B) wait until they tab out or move focus to introduce the error state. Is there a best practice in place for accessibility?
  150. Jason Day
    @jasonday
    May 11 22:08
    On our forms, we wait until the user tabs out - as the user could be correcting an item, and you don't want to error until they are done with the field
  151. Jason Day
    @jasonday
    May 11 22:08
    From a usability perspective, you don't want to be overly assertive, as this can decrease form conversion
  152. Jason Day
    @jasonday
    May 11 22:14
    Here's a demo of our basic form standards: https://jsfiddle.net/jasonday/zeg8oqag/ - validation on focusOut and on submit. Errors are associated with field using aria-describedby, aria-live region at the top of the form
  153. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 11 22:16
    [evanleach] I agree with you in terms of usability, but is there a difference between approaches when using a screen reader? Will the error state be presented to the user before accessing the form field below?
  154. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 11 22:18
    [evanleach] This demo is great btw!
  155. Jason Day
    @jasonday
    May 11 22:18
    depends on the screenreader/browser combo - using the aria-describedby technique, the error is announced as it is associated with the form field on tab out, but I think this is not true for every combination
  156. Jason Day
    @jasonday
    May 11 22:21
    but even from an a11y pov, you can be too assertive or overly verbose - you don't want to error a user on field entry until they are done with the field
  157. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 11 22:22
    [evanleach] Fantastic point of view. I have one more question if you have the patience.
  158. Jason Day
    @jasonday
    May 11 22:22
    but we do actively validate if a field is already in error - if a user corrects a field in error, we validate the success of the field even if they haven't tabbed out
  159. Jason Day
    @jasonday
    May 11 22:23
    so for example...a user enters an invalid format for an email and tabs out; an error presents, they go back into the field and correct the formatting error - as soon as the field is valid, we remove the error state
  160. Jason Day
    @jasonday
    May 11 22:25
    I don't think my demo shows that active validation; i need to add that in
  161. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 11 22:29
    [evanleach] In the demo you provided you have inline help zip code: ‘U.S. zipcodes only’. When the field is in an error state, the help content is no longer visible. I’ve seen sites like Etsy use popover error states on focus only, preserving space for inline help. Would a screen reader pick up on both the error state and help text in this case? Would maintaining both help in terms of accessibility?
  162. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 11 22:29
    [evanleach] Etsy example
  163. Jason Day
    @jasonday
    May 11 22:30
    ALthough the helper text is no longer visible, it is still associated with the field, so both the helper text and error state are announced by the screenreader
  164. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 11 22:30
    [evanleach] Aha. That’s awesome!
  165. Jason Day
    @jasonday
    May 11 22:31
    personally, i don't love the tooltip/popover style of error messages - but I think that's a style decision
  166. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 11 22:38
    [evanleach] I agree. I was primarily concerned with how both would be interpreted by a screen reader. Since they’re both announced I’ll move towards something a bit sleeker.
  167. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 11 22:38
    [evanleach] Thanks for your help!
  168. Jason Day
    @jasonday
    May 11 22:39
    no problem - glad to do it...we just did a major overhaul of our forms approach and are now implementing these new standards
  169. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 11 22:44
    [evanleach] We’re overhauling our styleguide currently and it’s really important to us that it’s accessible from the beginning. I’m sure I’ll be back with more questions :slightly_smiling_face:
  170. Jason Day
    @jasonday
    May 11 22:45
    i've been working on our pattern library for a while now, ensuring a11y, and it's a lot of work - glad to hear you guys are working it in in your revamp