The Verifiable Claims Task Force

A Task Force of the Web Payments Interest Group

Verifiable Claims Telecon

Minutes for 2016-10-04

Dave Longley is scribing.
Manu Sporny: We've got very good news. The VC work is progressing at W3C in an official capacity now. We need to cover an after action report for everyone not at TPAC. We will also remind folks to register for the F2F meeting, early bird registration ends in 2 days, costs go up considerably after that.
Manu Sporny: We need to cover the F2F agenda and get commitments for people to present and we will want to dive into presentations. Ideally we want them done in ~10 days.
Manu Sporny: In mid october, roughly.
Manu Sporny: Any other changes or updates to the agenda?

Topic: After Action Report - W3C TPAC

Manu Sporny: There's a link to the public minutes. In general, the discussions around VC happened in 4 venues. First was a discussion in a breakout session, full room, really good outcome for a breakout session.
Manu Sporny: We still haven't gotten minutes up for that yet, hope to do that later on in the week.
Manu Sporny: We two sessions in the Web Payments IG that covered VC topic. One minor discussion in the advisory committee forum that happened that is member confidential, can't talk about that on the call, but if you're a W3C member you can read the minutes.
Manu Sporny: Web Payments IG met to discuss where the work was going, W3M was there, specifically Wendy Seltzer, she needs to give thumbs up for the work to start. We did the same presentation we did in July to show the rest of the WPIG and bring them up to speed with where we were. Towards the end Wendy noted that she had remaining concerns and she was unconvinced that the work should proceed. When asked for specific concerns she said the security community, in particular, Jeff Hodges from Paypal had concerns. She suggested that the Web App Sec group chime in.
Manu Sporny: It looked like the work was going to stall. We would continue incubating in this group but it seemed like it was a no go on Thursday.
Manu Sporny: The day after (Friday), the Web App Sec attended the WPIG meeting and it was noted that people thought that they had concerns, and they were asked what the security concerns with the VC work was. The outcome was that they were concerned with the VC work when it was time to integrate with the browser, but since we're not doing that in the charter, they had no concerns with the charter as is.
Manu Sporny: The Web App Sec WG did not want to be viewed as either an enabler or as a blocker for the work. They said there will be security and privacy review as the work goes along and that's not an issue (and we agreed).
Manu Sporny: There were concerns with Web App Sec WG saying they agreed to the work starting and then that being used against them in 2 years when integrating with the browser. But that's not what was being discussed, so the result was there was no issues raised by the group.
Manu Sporny: Wendy then said she would prep a transition to do advanced notice that the work was approved by management and would be going out to the membership.
Chris Webber: Great news!
Manu Sporny: To remind of the process -- we've been incubating work for the past few years and the WPIG picked up that work to do due diligence on whether the work should proceed. That work was reviewed during TPAC and the consensus was that it was ready. We are in the charter in development stage right now. There is an advance notice sent out to the W3C membership as a public notice saying that W3M is working on a charter and the AC reps for the 400+ membership gets this. This is a heads up for anyone that cares about standards on the Web that this work is going through the W3C process.
Manu Sporny: Feedback will be public feedback and W3C member feedback will close out by November, at which point, if there isn't strong concern/push back or scope issues, which we aren't expecting because we've circulated this quite a bit before. THen there will be W3C membership vote probably in November.
Manu Sporny: The minimum period the vote can run is 4 weeks.
Manu Sporny: We should expect 4-6 weeks, 8 weeks tops for the vote to be done.
Manu Sporny: They are doing this on a bit of an accelerated time frame because we've already done a lot of work and circulation (work is well known).
Manu Sporny: So this is all great news. I'll stop here if there are any questions on what happened at TPAC or where we are.
Manu Sporny: Any comments?
Shane McCarron: Congrats to the group.
No other comments/questions.
Manu Sporny: We're having a F2F meeting on 27th-28th of October.

Topic: Registering for VC Face-to-Face

Nate Otto: Voip 02db is NateOtto
Manu Sporny: There is a link in IRC for registering, if you want to be at the F2F please go to the link right now. If you are only going to be at the F2F meeting you only need the one ticket, but if you will be there for all four days please by a regular ticket.
Manu Sporny: The regular ticket covers the F2F meeting as well.
Gregg Kellogg: This is registration for IIW and VC is taking place coincidentally with that. There is no specific VC registration.
Gregg Kellogg: Just to clarify.
Manu Sporny: Correct, we're co-locating with IIW.
Manu Sporny: We want good cross pollination with that group and they were nice to assist.
Manu Sporny: If you just want a one-day ticket for F2F you can do that.
Manu Sporny: You can always register at the door, but it will be much more expensive.
Manu Sporny: They have sold out of tickets before.
Manu Sporny: So don't wait.
Manu Sporny: Any questions about registration?
Brian Sletten: Is there an agenda for the two days?
Manu Sporny: Yes, we'll be discussing shortly.
Chris Webber: Will it be scribed on irc?
Manu Sporny: Let me backup a bit actually. I've got one more thing ... if you are a W3C membership company, you *need* to say something about the work and/or that you want it to start.
Manu Sporny: So, for example, Matt, Richard, we need you to get your AC rep to respond.

Topic: Verifiable Claims Face-to-Face Agenda

Manu Sporny: We only have this week and next to finalize the agenda. The following week is RWoT and then it's IIW. We won't have last two weeks of Oct to work on this. So we only have ~10 days to get it all sorted.
Manu Sporny: I changed the agenda around a bit based on feedback from various folks. We're looking for people to present. If you are interested in presenting something we aren't covering please speak up during the call.
Manu Sporny: We're starting a bit later than usual because it's the last day of IIW and people may be low on energy.
Manu Sporny: At 10-10:30 hope is that Richard and Matt ... Richard, Matt, and Dan Burnett have volunteered to chair the VCWG and we need to have an offline discussion on that and what it entails and we've let W3M know about your interest.
Manu Sporny: If anyone disagrees with them chairing or has a candidate to nominate please let us know.
Manu Sporny: 10-10:30 Are introductions. The hope is that chairs of the group, right now, Richard and Matt, will outline goals for everyone.
Manu Sporny: Then going over use cases, Joe Andrieu.
Manu Sporny: Shane, we've shifted you around a bit.
Manu Sporny: Richard, Matt can you chair this meeting?
Richard Varn: Yes.
Matt Stone: Yes.
Manu Sporny: Great, thank you.
Manu Sporny: The main thing you need to do is just make sure we stay on time and stay on schedule. Not a lot of decisions made just discussions. Just a goal to make sure we hit times and breaks, etc.
Manu Sporny: Also, to make sure the discussion stays on track and there are other people who have done this before that will help you do this but we'll generally look to you to make sure we stay on schedule. We should have an offline discussion to make sure we know what's going on.
Gregg Kellogg: Also to make sure the meetings are minuted and different people participate.
Manu Sporny: We will probably appoint scribes before the meeting so we don't have to keep asking who will scribe the next session and then we'll rotate folks.
Manu Sporny: In an email Joe said he'd be happy to cover use cases and he'd be there.
Manu Sporny: 11:30-12:30 Is industry use cases. So, for example, we don't have anyone down for education yet but my hope was someone from badge alliance could do that talk. Nate, is there anyone you've identified that could do that?
Shane McCarron: How about getting John Tibbets to come down
Nate Otto: Yes I have, he's looking into seeing if he can make the trip, he's located in SoCal.
Nate Otto: I'll look for different people if that falls through.
Manu Sporny: And if that falls through we've got Accreditrust, ETS, and Pearson that could do an education bit.
Manu Sporny: Should be 15 minutes presentation, so like 6 slides max, etc. We're trying to get through 4 industries in an hour.
Manu Sporny: Need someone for Payments, digital offers and coupons, etc. so on.
Shane McCarron: David ezell will be there...
Shane McCarron: And we should invite Gray Taylor
Manu Sporny: Healthcare, Adrian Gropper, would you be able to do something with VC and healthcare?
Adrian Gropper: Yes, we had a good meeting at the medical society here in MA and the outcome of the meeting hasn't been made public yet, but it doesn't matter because the use case is real and it will be a public thing anyway.
Manu Sporny: Good. We also had really good meeting at the ONC healthcare blockchain group.
Manu Sporny: Don't know if anyone else from there can speak to that.
Matt Stone: I had a quick question about structure [broken audio].
Matt Stone: What's the experience with coming into this agenda?
Manu Sporny: This is kind of what happens in initial F2F meetings... 15 minutes is tough which is why we tell people to focus on just one thing. We have the use cases as well. If folks feel uncomfortable with 15 minutes we can stretch to 20-25 tops and take time out of use cases. Industry use cases are for giving people a flavor about which different industries this stuff can be used in. We try to limit this section to 1-2 hours. We've allocated 2 hours for this at the meeting.
Matt Stone: Thanks. The F2F in general, do we have a sense for how many people are coming, small or big group.
Manu Sporny: Invitations went out to 94 people who have been engaged in the work and have said they want to come to F2F.
Manu Sporny: So potentially them plus whomever shows up from IIW. Room seats 30 :). Plenty of extra chairs to put around the room.
Manu Sporny: At day 1 we're going to be at the back of a really big conference hall and have space for spill over.
Manu Sporny: We will have *at least* 15 people, probably 25 but depending on demand I would guess 50. But we really don't know.
Manu Sporny: People that use the code to sign up for IIW we'll know about, but we won't know about general ticket holders.
Matt Stone: Can we help general ticket holders know we're in the back of the room?
Manu Sporny: IIW is an unconference, a handful of us will go to the board and write that we'll be doing presentations to notify people.
Matt Stone: Thanks.
Manu Sporny: Healthcare is Adrian Gropper, Entertainment ... we have folks from the movie and recording industry that, if they can show up, they will do some use cases.
Manu Sporny: After that, it's lunch.
Manu Sporny: After lunch we have Shane doing VC proposed architecture/goals.
Shane McCarron: Yes, I'm good with that.
Manu Sporny: Since we won't have Dan there ... we're going to try and dial him in from China but that may be a tenuous thing. We're going to cover the data model and representations.
Shane McCarron: I can cover the data model as well if needed
Manu Sporny: Then a break, then a review of the plan for progress at W3C. Richard and Matt will be doing that but I'm happy to help and Shane/Gregg as well.
Manu Sporny: Then 4:30-5:00 is an agenda bash for the next day, things always come up and we want to stay flexible on day 2.
Manu Sporny: Then dinner at 6:00pm with everyone hopefully as long as it's not like 50 people that want to go :).
Manu Sporny: Any questions/concerns for the day 1 agenda?
Manu Sporny: It's a pretty typical first F2F agenda.
Manu Sporny: We start earlier on day 2: 8:30-9, giving people time to get done early and get to flights.
Manu Sporny: Venue is the same, room changes on day 2.
Manu Sporny: Agenda review/bash at the beginning.
Manu Sporny: Then 9:30-10:30 talking about self-sovereign identifiers and more long term architectural concerns.
Manu Sporny: Hope here is that Les, Drummond, Christopher talk about DIDs and potentially browser integration in a few years.
Manu Sporny: Getting people to understand that and how that happens would be good. Privacy and security review.
Manu Sporny: Then short break. Then 11:00am-12:30pm we'll do a deep dive on data model/open badges.
Manu Sporny: Les, are you good for presenting at 9:30 on day 2?
Manu Sporny: I did talk with Drummond and Les at the blockchain workshop and they said they would be down for doing this and they'd already signed up, just wanted to check in.
Manu Sporny: Nate, you and I and hopefully some other people can come up with a clear positioning statement how VC are complimentary to open badges and how things fit together.
Manu Sporny: And talking about how we ended up with the claim format we have.
Manu Sporny: Pros/Cons.
Manu Sporny: Gregg, my hope is that you can lead some of this stuff because it has a lot to do with Linked Data, with myself and Shane supporting you.
Gregg Kellogg: Yeah, I can do that. Certainly I understand the Linked Data/RDF bits the most and you guys know the most about how that integrates with the specific application here.
Manu Sporny: Great, then lunch.
Manu Sporny: 1:30-2:30 Linked Data signatures, JWTs, and going over the formats for these claims.
Manu Sporny: This is a fairly important and touchy subject.
Manu Sporny: We're going to be dealing with this over the never couple of years.
Manu Sporny: So it's good to get out on the table and let people understand what the tradeoffs and choices are.
Manu Sporny: Then next steps and when we'll be meeting next, etc. Hopefully everyone out by 3pm so people can catch flights out.
Manu Sporny: Things not on here, testing, and test requirements, but don't know where to fit that in.
Les Chasen: Appologies i am having audio issues ... we (Drummond and/or I) will be able to talk about SSI
Shane McCarron: Agendas expand to fill all available time, don't think we should shoe horn in.
Shane McCarron: I think we're well positioned to exercise this stuff already and can bring slides in case people are interested.
Manu Sporny: Thanks, Shane.
Manu Sporny: This agenda is only good if people on this call agree it's a good line up. Did we miss anything/should we add more breaks/any feedback/changes?
Shane McCarron: I think we are being a little over-ambitious ... people tend to go into the weeds at an unconference.
Manu Sporny: We've got things we can drop ... lots of time allocated for use cases and we can shave some of that off.
Manu Sporny: On day 2, we have 1.5 hours for a deep dive on the data model and we also cover it on day 1 as well, so we may not need that much time on it or we may sacrifice it in the name of something else.
Manu Sporny: So we have 1.5 hours to play with.
Manu Sporny: But I think that's about it.
Matt Stone: To help w/ the agenda priority
Matt Stone: What is our essential take away or objective for the face to face?
Manu Sporny: What we're trying to do is level set.
Manu Sporny: Get everyone on the same page with where the work is currently, no decisions, just education.
Matt Stone: Most attendees are likely familiar w/ the work to date?
Manu Sporny: Talk about what we've been up to past 2 years, we may need to do again once the WG starts depending on new people in the group, but this is just level setting.
Manu Sporny: There will be people new to the work.
Manu Sporny: Most attendees will not have background on what we've been doing.
Matt Stone: So this is a real introduction. - thanks.
Manu Sporny: As frustrating as that will be for those who have been doing this for a while, it's a necessity to bring people up to speed.
Adrian Gropper: I'd like to see a session or mention of where verifiable claims fits in with other standards work, in particular, UMA, distributed ID, etc. What does it mean for the browser to be taken up in the future, general architecture for how things fit together, maybe necessary for a F2F.
Manu Sporny: A very good point, maybe try and hash that out at IIW and then bring those learnings to the F2F meeting.
Manu Sporny: Thoughts?
Adrian Gropper: Yes.
Manu Sporny: Ok, a couple of us should do a session at IIW to talk about how VC fits in with everything else.
Manu Sporny: In some cases it may be unclear, for example, in a deployed SAML system, but WG job is to figure out how these things all fit in exactly.
Matt Stone: "How does VClaims fit in the broader context..."
Manu Sporny: Figuring out easy integration points.
Manu Sporny: Yes, Matt.
Manu Sporny: Any other comments/concerns about the agenda?
Manu Sporny: In that case, if everyone is down for a presentation, please start as soon as you can on that. Link off of the agenda that we have in the google doc. For your presentation, highlight the text and add a link.
Manu Sporny: Anyone can comment in that doc. Go into the doc, highlight your topic and link to your presentation, PDF, Google doc/presentation thing, etc.
Manu Sporny: The sooner we have those, the better, I'll start pestering people in a week if there isn't at least a rough draft up.
Manu Sporny: There's one last item on the agenda.

Topic: Feedback on W3C Verifiable Claims Announcement

Manu Sporny: W3C sent out a notice that they are working on the VCWG charter.
Manu Sporny: This is advance notice. It is important if you are interested in the work in any way shape or form that you send feedback to that list.
Manu Sporny: You can also send it back to the AC forum if you are giving feedback through your AC rep.
Richard Varn: Now or wait for them to ask?
Manu Sporny: If you want the work to start at W3C you should absolutely respond to say you interested in this work starting. They want to see public interest. Talking about use cases is an added bonus.
Manu Sporny: Richard, do it now, don't wait for them to ask.
Manu Sporny: Just provide feedback that you want this stuff to start. You will be asked again, specifically, your AC rep will be asked in a month/month in a half. But in this initial phase it's really important that everyone interested in the work speak up. They want to hear from you.
Manu Sporny: I think that's it for the call today, anything else to discuss? We only have one more call this month, then we'll be at IIW and RWoT and won't have calls.
Manu Sporny: Any concerns that we should address before the call next week?
Manu Sporny: We'll meet next week and check up on presentations. congrats to everyone!