The Verifiable Claims Task Force

A Task Force of the Web Payments Interest Group

Verifiable Claims Telecon

Minutes for 2016-11-01

Les Chasen is scribing.
Manu Sporny: We've had multiple face-to-face meetings over the past two weeks - Rebooting web of trust, Internet Identity Workshop, Verifiable Claims Face-to-face
Manu Sporny: We will review f2f meetings and updates from the VCTF
Manu Sporny: Weekly mtgs to transition to the new chairs, Richard Varn and Matt Stone.

Topic: Rebooting Web of Trust

Manu Sporny: Item 1 WoT review. chaired by Christopher Allen. way to get stuff done. shipping is number 1 goal
Manu Sporny: DID a big topic
Drummond Reed: Seeds planted at WoT meeting 1. Respect Network obtained a DHS phase 1 grant to study DID on the blockchain. Been advancing the work through the WoT meetings
Drummond Reed: WD03 submitted at beginning - Persistent identifiers similar to URNs that are registerable without centralization
Drummond Reed: Contain cryptgraphic idnetifiers (CID). Structured with a DDO (DiD Object)
Drummond Reed: DDO contains a control block with permissions for updating
Drummond Reed: During the session submited DID WD 04
Manu Sporny: DID started within the VCTF. Thanks to Drummond for driving it forward
Drummond Reed: The current DID Working Draft spec, now heading towards WD05, is at
Manu Sporny: Security and privacy considerations section added to the spec
Manu Sporny: Extended the LD data to include public signatures, pseudononimous identifiers and multi sig natures
Manu Sporny: Harlan Wood and Noah Thorpe implemented verifiable claims at WoT
Drummond Reed: It was remarkable how verifiable claims have become a number one topic during RWOT
Manu Sporny: We still have a bit of work to do to raise the questions over the work to the w3c mgmt
Drummond Reed: Yes, I agree with Manu that the assumptions of the RWOT attendees that verifiable claims were "just there" was a little dangerous

Topic: Internet Identity Workshop #23

Manu Sporny: We did two sessions there - the first - Intro to Verifiable Claims:
Drummond Reed: They didn't really understand how much work remains to get them to a standard.
Manu Sporny: Continuted to discuss verfiable claims on the first day. there were 44 people attending out of 180 at IIW
Manu Sporny: Day 1 good but healthy skepticism ... great push back with great answers
Manu Sporny: 1 Hour was not enough time ...asked to do a deep dive on day 2
Nathan George: (These links may move as they are archived)
Manu Sporny: 35-40 People to attend on day 2. lots of Q&A
Manu Sporny: Concerns were discussed over the next 2 days
Manu Sporny: Thurs and Fri were the VCTF f2f meetings
Manu Sporny: Pictures from Verifiable Claims at IIW:
Manu Sporny: The link above shows the people that attended ... good number
Manu Sporny: IIW team invited VCTF to come back ... they felt it was great for the communities to come together ... good synergies
Drummond Reed: DID and IIW - took WD04 into a another intensive session. Focus on how to provide internet scale identity. went deep into DDOs
Drummond Reed: DID's work independently sponsored by DHS ... not yet part of a standards group. Goal to get the spec done this month
Drummond Reed: 1 For sovrin, 1 for bitcoin and a couple of etherium methods to be specied
Matt Stone: Great discussions - have to be careful as we debate the big topics of verifiable claims vis-a-vis community group and data model spec charted by W3C [scribe assist by Matt Stone]

Topic: Verifiable Claims Face-to-Face

Manu Sporny: Minutes from Day One:
Manu Sporny: Unofficial mtg of the VCTF met thursday and friday
Manu Sporny: Minutes from Day two:
Manu Sporny: Very productive .. lots of level setting. thanks to chairs for keeping us on track
Manu Sporny: Overview of tech, long term concerns such as signature formats. reviewed data models.
Richard Varn: Felt that new people added great value. appreciated the overlap with the IIW gang
Matt Stone: Echo richard's statements. lot of work to do where the boundaries are
Matt Stone: Challanging to stay focused on the two domains. First is data model/syntax, second is business rules layered on top of that.
Drummond Reed: I have to drop off the call now, but I agree that the in-person meeting was highly productive and informative (especially for the new folks)
Manu Sporny: Great sessions... should do it again

Topic: Intro to Phil Archer from W3C

Manu Sporny: Phil archer from w3c has joined the call today
Phil Archer: Role to work on data related standards, I used to be the Data Activity Lead, now I'm the Data Strategist.
Phil Archer: Ask to marshal us through the process
Phil Archer: Thanks to the team for doing much of the leg work. will help on final charter items
Phil Archer: Need to get with the chairs and better understand the goals.
Gregg Kellogg: +1 To Phil, he’s been great to work with.
Manu Sporny: We are happy to have Phil as our advisor
Pindar Wong: +1
Katie Haritos-Shea: +1
Phil Archer: I have a question for the group. If you have an implemenation and someone comes up with a new point that changes the spec are you willing to change your implementation to match with the new updates?
Eric Korb: Accreditrust will update to comply with specs adopted by W3C
Manu Sporny: I can only speak for Digital Bazaar's implementation of Verifiable Claims. I know Accreditrust also has one, he'll have to speak for Accreditrust. you have to be careful about how you ask that question, there are many people here that have implemented open badges and are integrating them into Verifaible Claims. So, those people will have to speak up as well. For those that have implemented, please speak up now.
Richard Varn: We're in the OpenBadge implementation space, the reason we haven't done more is because it doesn't meet our needs for Verifiable Claims, we've implemented, but are anticipating changes and we, ETS, are willing and needing to implement changes in the spec.
Carla Casilli: The open badges spec is shifting hands to IMS Global 1/1/2017, so that question is a larger question than it was in the past.
Kerri Lemoie: I can't speak for OpenBadges, but I am in that group and we are working on Open Badges v2 and we are in a place to adopt changes in Verifiable Claims and update our implementations.
David Chadwick: We have an implementation that we've done, it's not standardized, done some of our own stuff based on FIDO protocol, we want to update/change, dependent on funding at University.
Nathan George: At Evernym (company), we've been working on a reference implementation of Verifiable Claims inside of the Sovrin Ledger (product). We're already in discussion on how we can make our implementation of Verifiable Claims and Zero Knowledge Proofs match what's being done in the Working Group.
Matt Stone: Hi, Matt Stone from Pearson. We have a product called Acclaim that is an implementation of Open Badges, driving needs that we're talking about in Verifiable Claims. Our challenge is to bring these things together so they're less discretely different.
Manu Sporny: So Phil, I hope that answers your question, we have organizations that have implemented and they're willing to update their implementations based on potential Verifiable Claims WG output.
Eric Korb: Eric Korb from Accreditrust, we have implementatoins of Verifiable Claims data format, also integrated Open Badges, we can support both formats. We believe Verifiable Claims format is the best one. We are very open to adopting what happens with the spec, we have seen the "proof in the pudding". We are also very involved in Open Badges and IMS Global, so we're happy to join forces and bring these groups together in a common standard.
Phil Archer: I imagine that there will be some changes but they should be a small delta. This has happened for PoE and ODRL. No one wants to rewrite everything, some delta may come up, some willingness to change is good.
Phil Archer: Glad to see the willingness for changes
Eric Korb: Happy to join forces in bringing different groups together such as the open badge alliance
Manu Sporny: Open badges alliance representation is here and engaged
Eric Korb: IMS announced last week they will be taking over the stewardship of the OBI
Matt Stone: +IMSGlobal taking over Open Badges on Jan1
Matt Stone: Willingness to conform by bigger players is important as interoperability is a must
Richard Varn: Also, we are members of IMS global as are several others here and we so will be attached to the OBI work through the new effort at IMS overseeing it
Kerri Lemoie: Intro to openbadges
Manu Sporny: Look at Open Badges as a vocabulary .. we've been working with the Open Badges Community - director of OBI comes to these calls, it is linked data, fits in well with Verifiable Claims
Richard Varn: IMS Global is taking over ownership of the spec

Topic: Responses to VC Concerns

Manu Sporny: Last agenda item: responses to the VC work
Manu Sporny: Input is mostly from Tantek from Mozilla, Microsoft, Google, and Akamai
Gregg Kellogg: Tantek’s sig indicates he’s Web Standards Lead at Mozilla, so this would seem to be an official response to me.
Manu Sporny: Tantek is asking if this is all just cheerleeding or is it real - are there implementations
Manu Sporny: Yes it is real ... our discussions above are proof of implementations
Manu Sporny: We have lots of real participants who are comitted to the effort and interoperability and implementations
Manu Sporny: How shall we respond to these questions?
Manu Sporny: Are there people implementing
Manu Sporny: Do we need a working group
Manu Sporny: Consensus at the f2f. yes there are people implementing
Manu Sporny: We need a working group due to the number of companies that want to come together to interopeable implementations
Manu Sporny: Do we take these minutes or do we get members to send emails with their commitments?
Katie Haritos-Shea: Which use cases are important to you should be communicated. concern is that the scope will be made too tight such to be useless
Shane McCarron: Don't forget to include the link to the list of implementor committments we got earlier
Manu Sporny: Can send an email back refering to minutes and the audio and CC those that spoke up as a response. This can start a dialog with those that have expressed its importance
Richard Varn: They are not becomes no one is....
Dave Longley: We have done this exercise a number of times. Unfortunately we still get push back that we are not real ... how do we avoid spinning our wheels
Manu Sporny: Send an email, site minutes, audio log, include implementor commitments and include survey CC'ing everyone ... does this sound like a plan?
Pindar Wong: Sounds like a plan
Dave Longley: And the questions aren't changing ... they aren't saying why the answer is insufficient.
Dave Longley: +1 To Matt
Manu Sporny: +1 To Matt
Matt Stone: Phil, how can we put the final nail in the coffin? It feels like we have done this repeatedly.
Phil Archer: This is new to me. Hopes this represents that this is a change in direction
Phil Archer: Expects this to go through and there to be a working group starting in Jan
Manu Sporny: We will put that response together
Manu Sporny: Calls should shift to technical issues
Katie Haritos-Shea: There is frustration, and hopefully we can get to the work
Manu Sporny: Will continue to be responsive to questions but we should be getting more technical
Shane McCarron: I am pumped to get into the spec work again!!!
Pindar Wong: Thanks much ... great call everyone!
Kerri Lemoie: Excellent work all. Thank you!
Manu Sporny: Will not be able to attend next week ... talking about Verifiable Claims in Chicago to Insurance Industry