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A11y Slackers
Gitter Channel Archive 15th of July 2015

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. patrickhlauke
    Jul 15 07:43
    what fresh hell is THIS now?
  2. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 08:00
    @patrickhlauke a fresh hell for ye
  3. garcialo
    Jul 15 08:04
    I christen thee, a11y chat room! http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/images/lauke-loo.jpg
  4. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 08:06
    hey @garcialo you get an early adopters badge ;-)
  5. garcialo
    Jul 15 08:06
    Woohoo!
  6. iandevlin
    Jul 15 08:09
    Oh hell.
  7. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 08:09
    @garcialo am hoping that slack works out, but just in case...
  8. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 08:11
    you can collapse images
  9. garcialo
    Jul 15 08:11
    There is probably just too much momentum there even if we're not able to get the message history
  10. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 08:18
    hey @yatil
  11. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 08:19
    @garcialo gitter has lower barrier to entry - no signup so lets see
  12. garcialo
    Jul 15 08:26
    oh, so the logging in with github is optional?
  13. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 08:28
    @garcialo optional to view, login to github to post
  14. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 08:34
    to access via IRC follow these directions https://github.com/WICG/admin#join-on-irc but use "Join the room /join w3c/a11yslackers" instead of the WICG room name
  15. iheni
    Jul 15 08:35
    Hello all
  16. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 08:36
    morning henny
  17. yatil
    Jul 15 08:37
    Hi @stevefaulkner, hi all!
  18. goetsu
    Jul 15 08:39
    Hi there
  19. sideshowbarker
    Jul 15 08:49
    hola
  20. patrickhlauke
    Jul 15 09:08
    /invite Zakim <channel>
  21. sideshowbarker
    Jul 15 09:08
    hah
  22. patrickhlauke
    Jul 15 09:10
    hope you read any T&Cs for gitter, steve...otherwise, don't moan on twitter...
  23. sideshowbarker
    Jul 15 09:10
    T&Cs?
  24. garcialo
    Jul 15 09:10
    Terms & Conditions
  25. sideshowbarker
    Jul 15 09:10
    ah
  26. sideshowbarker
    Jul 15 09:11
    I have talked with the gitter people before
  27. sideshowbarker
    Jul 15 09:11
    about W3C stuff
  28. sideshowbarker
    Jul 15 09:12
    and they told me whatever limits they state anywhere are only for commercial orgs and they would waive them for us if we ever happen to run into any
  29. sideshowbarker
    Jul 15 09:12
    anyway, there basically are no limits
  30. sideshowbarker
    Jul 15 09:13
    they do free unlimited logging for all public channels
  31. garcialo
    Jul 15 09:13
    That sounds awesome. =)
  32. sideshowbarker
    Jul 15 09:14
    the only real leave they have that I know of is that if you have "org"channel for a github org, there are some kind of restrictions the system will otherwise cause you to run into (I mean if it's a commercial org)
  33. sideshowbarker
    Jul 15 09:15
    btw @stevefaulkner showed me this picture of @patrickhlauke when he had a different hairstyle not Patrick Lauke, but some 80's pop star.
  34. sideshowbarker
    Jul 15 09:15
    I kinda like it
  35. patrickhlauke
    Jul 15 09:24
    patrick lauke as a young boy, with hair.
  36. patrickhlauke
    Jul 15 09:24
    male pattern baldness sucks. to think i had a big mop of hair once...
  37. iheni
    Jul 15 09:25
    Definitely captures @patrickhlauke's signature look @sideshowbarker
  38. LjWatson @LjWatson seems to have walked into the twilight zone...
  39. sideshowbarker
    Jul 15 09:26
    heh
  40. patrickhlauke
    Jul 15 09:26
    more horrors here https://www.flickr.com/search/?user_id=24232779%40N00&view_all=1&text=patrick%20lauke
  41. sideshowbarker
    Jul 15 09:26
    @patrickhlauke you should still wear shirts with that white collar you got on there
  42. sideshowbarker
    Jul 15 09:26
    that style
  43. sideshowbarker
    Jul 15 09:26
    it suits you
  44. patrickhlauke
    Jul 15 09:30
    italian primary school uniform...ah, those were the days
  45. LjWatson
    Jul 15 09:31
    Random question... is anyone else using Chatzilla? Specifically with .wav/.mp3 files instead of system beeps for notifications?
  46. LjWatson
    Jul 15 09:32
    Getting really difficult to know which channel I've been pinged in. Thinking I could use different sounds for each channel, but cannot get Chatzilla to use sound files instead of system beeps :(
  47. sideshowbarker
    Jul 15 09:33
    @LjWatson I’m not a Chatzilla user but I think we should talk to the gitter devs about them fixing the a11y problem you’ve noticed (the fact it doesn’t cause new messages to get announced)
  48. LjWatson
    Jul 15 09:33
    @sideshowbarker that would be good to do. That's the major bug fix needed to make it usable + screen readers.
  49. sideshowbarker
    Jul 15 09:33
    @LjWatson the gitter UI sends Web Notifications for pings
  50. sideshowbarker
    Jul 15 09:34
    the audio story for Web Notifications isn’t so great at this point
  51. LjWatson
    Jul 15 09:34
    I haven't looked into web notifications at all. Presumably they present some notification on-screen within the browser?
  52. sideshowbarker
    Jul 15 09:36
    @LjWatson outside the browser—so-called "desktop notifications" at the platform/OS level
  53. sideshowbarker
    Jul 15 09:36
    gmail also sends them
  54. LjWatson
    Jul 15 09:37
    Hmm. Interesting. Do you know of an example/demo I could use to play with?
  55. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 09:39
    @patrickhlauke can see jack in a young you - sweet
  56. iandevlin
    Jul 15 09:40
    Is this the Patrick Lauke Appreciation channel? :D
  57. LjWatson
    Jul 15 09:41
    All hail the mighty @patrickhlauke
  58. sideshowbarker
    Jul 15 09:43
    @LjWatson about Web Notifications, a simple example is http://w3c-test.org/notifications/notification-body-basic-manual.html
  59. sideshowbarker
    Jul 15 09:44
    @LjWatson also btw the channel here where we can find the gitter devs is https://gitter.im/gitterHQ/gitter and the person there we should ping about the a11y issue is @mydigitalself (he's the founder or co-founder of the service)
  60. sideshowbarker
    Jul 15 09:45
    I think their HQ is actually in London and he's there
  61. LjWatson
    Jul 15 09:46
    @sideshowbarker thanks. Think I'm missing something obvious, but how do I trigger the notification in that demo? Nothing much happening in FF at any rate.
  62. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 09:46
    This looks useful: WAI-ARIA - Screen Reader Compatibility http://www.powermapper.com/tests/screen-readers/aria/index.html
  63. sideshowbarker
    Jul 15 09:47
    @LjWatson it should trigger on its own when you load the page; a notification should just appear
  64. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 09:48
    Might as well switch too.
  65. sideshowbarker
    Jul 15 09:48
    @stevefaulkner do you know if Web Notifications actually work with AT as expected?
  66. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 09:48
    sideshowbarker: no haven't looked into it
  67. sideshowbarker
    Jul 15 09:48
    k
  68. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 09:49
    sideshowbarker: in what browser(s) should http://w3c-test.org/notifications/notification-body-basic-manual.html work?
  69. LjWatson
    Jul 15 09:50
    @sideshowbarker ok. Nothing seems to be happening. No notification apparently available anywhere on desktop UI.
  70. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 09:50
    sideshowbarker: not seeing it in firefox
  71. yatil
    Jul 15 09:50
    I can’t get that demo work in either firefox nor chrome.
  72. yatil @yatil notes there is also no message to allow/disallow notifications with that demo.
  73. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 09:51
    Doesn't do anything in Safari 8.
  74. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 09:51
    Do we need to press any keys?
  75. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 09:51
    this demo works https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/demos/detail/html5-notifications/launch
  76. yatil
    Jul 15 09:53
    The notifications for this app are working well under MacOS/Firefox as it just leverages the standard desktop notifications. You need to agree that the app is able to send notifications first.
  77. LjWatson
    Jul 15 09:54
    @stevefaulkner what happens when you trigger a notification? Getting nothing in FF/Jaws.
  78. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 09:56
    LjWatson: I need to look at code, probably need some live-region magic added
  79. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 09:56
    @stevefaulkner: how will we handle the different channels that are on Slacker here?
  80. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 09:57
    Should we create rooms for each one?
  81. LjWatson
    Jul 15 09:57
    @stevefaulkner thought the idea was for the notification to appear outside of the browser window though?
  82. LjWatson
    Jul 15 09:57
    Or possibly I misunderstood @sideshowbarker ^^
  83. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 09:57
    LjWatson: it does, but unsure of mechanism/UI yet
  84. LjWatson
    Jul 15 09:58
    Ok. So I'm not even able to find a notification anywhere on my desktop, even when I go looking for it. How does it manifest itself visually?
  85. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 09:58
    a panel bottm right of screen, which removes itself after a short time
  86. yatil
    Jul 15 09:58
    @LjWatson Did you agree to getting notifications? There should be a popup when you open the website in question.
  87. LjWatson
    Jul 15 10:00
    @yatil thought I did, but will try again.
  88. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 10:01
    @MichielBijl suggest seeing how this goes, I prefer less rooms than more
  89. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 10:02
    Sure, but it was kind of nice to see some channels for specific topics like focus-styles, aria-patterns and a11y-ux.
  90. LjWatson
    Jul 15 10:03
    @yatil definitely have permissions accepted. Still no dice.
  91. yatil
    Jul 15 10:04
    @LjWatson Meh…
  92. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 10:04
    @MichielBijl its very easy to set up new channels
  93. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 10:06
    @LjWatson can confirm no announcement via JAWS/NVDA, so there we go something else to work on...
  94. LjWatson
    Jul 15 10:07
    @stevefaulkner is it possible to get to the notification with Jaws/whatever though - even if it isn't announced automatically?
  95. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 10:08
    LjWatson: don't know yet will check
  96. LjWatson
    Jul 15 10:09
    With desktop notifications from installed applications (Outlook for example), it's possible to alt tab to the notification - even though it isn't announced automatically.
  97. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 10:13
    @LjWatson Ok so the notification window produced by Firefox does have an accessible tree, I think UI is produced by firefox, so probably require browser bug
  98. LjWatson
    Jul 15 10:14
    @stevefaulkner Interesting. It sounds like it's basically a browser window minus the usual chrome?
  99. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 10:23
    @LjWatson something like that yeah
  100. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 10:25
    And if anybody knows the way to San Jose, don't miss this: $10 for a stellar #WebStandards line-up! http://openwebcamp.com/speakers-this-year/ @OpenWebCamp A #WebDev Conference With A Difference August 1st in San Jose
  101. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 10:28
    web notifications spec: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/notifications/raw-file/tip/Overview.html
  102. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 10:32
    @LjWatson: notifications spec does not appear to define UI or advise on accessibility
  103. sideshowbarker
    Jul 15 10:43
    @LjWatson @stevefaulkner feel free to chime in on gitterHQ/gitter#769 if you have anything to add at this point
  104. sideshowbarker
    Jul 15 10:44
    I was just talking with the gitter chief and he said he’s not aware of any open issues for this and he suggested I raise one
  105. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 10:46
    Could someone send a message? I want to try out notifications with VoiceOver. The Mozilla example does announce with Safari.
  106. LjWatson @LjWatson waves @michielbijl
  107. MichielBijl @MichielBijl waves back to @LjWatson
  108. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 10:49
    Seems to work with Safari and VoiceOver.
  109. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 10:49
    It announces the notification once it pops up.
  110. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 10:52
    suggest its a browser implementation issue
  111. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 10:57
    I pinged Marco https://twitter.com/stevefaulkner/status/621257042213371904
  112. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 10:59
    I think it is browser/OS specific. Firefox uses OS X' native notification system; which is accessbile.
  113. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 10:59
    The popup that asks for permission in Firefox on the other hand, is not accessible.
  114. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 11:05
    Chrome uses a custom notification on OS X. It is somewhat accessible in the sense that you can move around with the VO keys, but it doesn't announce that it's a new notification/window; it just moves focus to it.
  115. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 11:05
    On a related note: Chrome doesn't automatically asks for permission, had to trigger that via the radio button.
  116. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 11:23
    Firefox bug filed https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1184049
  117. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 11:24
    Should the permission window a11y be a separate bug?
  118. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 11:25
    yes
  119. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 11:27
    Okay
  120. LjWatson
    Jul 15 11:30
    @MichielBijl @stevefaulkner AFAIK VO isn't supported with FX.
  121. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 11:33
    @LjWatson: I haven't tested it that much, but you can sort of navigate the UI.
  122. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 11:34
    Unaware of the support states.
  123. LjWatson
    Jul 15 11:34
    @MichielBijl You can. Just meant that Apple doesn't officially support it.
  124. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 11:35
    @LjWatson: ah okay, thanks for the clarification.
  125. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 12:53
    Hey @goetsu
  126. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 12:58
    Can anyone thing of a good example or a slider widget (input type="range")? I want to create an example that makes sense to both sighted, and non-sighted users. My colour picker doesn't really qualify…
  127. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 12:58
    It should be a single thumbed slider.
  128. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 12:59
    @MichielBijl http://codepen.io/collection/DgYaMj/ ?
  129. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 13:00
    Sorry, I'm looking for context to use a slider in :)
  130. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 13:00
    Design doesn't matter at this point.
  131. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 13:05
    @MichielBijl grepping some data to see if i can find any real world examples
  132. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 13:06
    data from http://webdevdata.org/
  133. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 13:07
    Thanks!
  134. Heydon
    Jul 15 13:33
    I've been using jQueryUI's datepicker with JAWS and I reckon it's not very good. Anyone else masochistic enough to give it a go and corroborate? https://jqueryui.com/datepicker/
  135. Heydon
    Jul 15 13:33
    I've been using jQueryUI's datepicker with JAWS and I reckon it's not very good. Anyoneone else masochistic enough to give it a go and corroborate? https://jqueryui.com/datepicker/
  136. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 13:39
    @Heydon: can't make sense of it in VoiceOver; the date picker itself is not announced when it pops up, and dates in the table or not labeled as dates.
  137. Scratch2k
    Jul 15 13:39
    I heard you were dead Heydon
  138. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 13:39
    Also, prev and next month buttons are announced as 'next group', 'prev group'. Makes no sense if you don't know what it is you're interacting with.
  139. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 13:41
    @Heydon: have read this: http://www.iandevlin.com/blog/2015/07/html5/building-a-semantic-calendar-in-html5
  140. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 13:41
    have you*
  141. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 13:43
    I heard you were dead Heydon
  142. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 13:43
    Yeah likewise, glad you have been resurrected @Heydon
  143. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 13:46
    @heydon have you tried http://hanshillen.github.io/jqtest/#goto_datepicker ?
  144. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 13:48
    Low Vision Proposal: Needs http://nosetothepage.org/LVOverview/LV_Needs.html
  145. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 13:49
    @stevefaulkner: that's no better with VoiceOver.
  146. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 13:50
    @MichielBijl how proficient are you with VoiceOver?
  147. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 13:50
    Somewhat, I know basic navigation and the web rotor.
  148. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 13:51
    I'm not familiar with how a screen reader should interact with a date picker; just going on what would make sense to me.
  149. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 13:54
    datepickers can be (overly) complex UI :-(
  150. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 13:56
    Let me put it like this: when I enter the date picker (with the arrow keys), nothing gets announced. If I enter the inline version with VO, stuff does get announced, but I still only hear “5, link”. It might be a problem with VO/Safari.
  151. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 14:03
    I would expect VO to announce the currently selected/focused date, something like “10th of March, 2016, press control + option + space, to select”
  152. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 14:04
    What is it like in JAWS/NVDA @stevefaulkner?
  153. iandevlin
    Jul 15 14:07
    On a somewhat related note, do any screen readers pay any attention at all to the <time> element yet?
  154. Heydon
    Jul 15 14:08
    @Scratch2k Heydon is dead. Long live lobsters
  155. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 14:09
    @iandevlin: VO reads the text within, does not read the datetime attribute.
  156. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 14:09
    @iandevlin no
  157. Heydon
    Jul 15 14:10
    @MichielBijl Yeah, pretty much similar in JAWS. There's custom bindings for keyboard users too ie. CTRL+ARROW to switch dates. Not sure how anyone would know to try that.
  158. LjWatson
    Jul 15 14:10
    @Heydon exercising a touch of masochism... can't get it to work at all with Jaws16/FF39.
  159. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 14:10
    @MichielBijl tried it out in VO worked OK, you need to enter tables mode to interact successfully with the table
  160. iandevlin
    Jul 15 14:10
    Ok, thanks all.
  161. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 14:11
    @stevefaulkner: hmm, I'll try again.
  162. LjWatson
    Jul 15 14:11
    @IanDevlin No, no screen reader support for <time>
  163. Heydon
    Jul 15 14:12
    Thank you @LjWatson. One of the main problems is that tabbing to the table closes the widget. You're expected to use CTRL + ARROW but that's not announced so it's all guesswork and it doesn't seem to work anyway. Clusterfuck, I reckon :(
  164. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 14:13
    @iandevlin the main (theoretical as in not implemnted yet) advantage of <time> is that it acts as a hint to AT about how to announce the content in <time> i.e. recognise this as a date/time
  165. LjWatson
    Jul 15 14:13
    @Heydon Clusterfuck indeed. The keyboard commands aren't recognised by Jaws either, so Cntrl left/right is useless too.
  166. LjWatson @LjWatson puts head in hands.
  167. iandevlin
    Jul 15 14:15
    @stevefaulkner Yes, I am also just wondering how my "semantic calendar" that uses nested <time> elements might eventually be interpreted and whether it would be useful or actually drive people insane.
  168. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 14:15
    @stevefaulkner @iandevlin: but what if it's just some random text, like say <time datetime="2016-03-10">My birthday!</time>. Should it announce it as “My birthday!”, or “March 10, 2016, My Birthday!”, or …
  169. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 14:17
    @MichielBijl that depends on what AT implementers decide, the datetime attribute content will be exposed, but what vendors do with it is up to them.
  170. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 14:20
    True, will be interesting to see what they decide.
  171. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 14:23
    Tables mode does help, it now announces the row/column and the column header. Still the interaction is unclear, VO+space or VO+enter does not select the date. And prev and next as labels for the arrow buttons is terrible IMO. I could sent Hans Hillen an e-mail, but since the project is almost two years old, I'm not sure I should.
  172. Heydon
    Jul 15 14:25
    @MichielBijl Using the custom key bindings, I could see dates being selected in JAWS, but not read out. I think I need to write a ticket to remove this picker from the application I'm auditing. Lot of users, not good.
  173. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 14:28
    @Heydon: the Hans Hillen version with VO works, but you have to use the return key to actually select i. The selected date is then announced (in a somewhat unclear fashion).
  174. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 14:29
    It just reads out the actual value: 2016/03/10.
  175. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 14:31
    It just reads out the actual value: 2016/03/10.
  176. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 14:32
    i think its a reasonable expectation that the value of a text box is read out
  177. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 14:33
    Agreed, but wouldn't it be better if it was read out in a natural form?
  178. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 14:34
    better if it was displayed in a natural form perhaps
  179. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 14:36
    guess I am saying that there are some things that can be likely fixed, announcement of a text box value as written is not one of them
  180. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 14:46
    Then it should be displayed in natural form if you ask me.
  181. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 14:47
    I'd stop and laugh if someone said to me: “We're going out for drinks on 17/07/2015”
  182. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 14:48
    reading this http://www.sitepoint.com/accessible-footnotes-css/
  183. LjWatson
    Jul 15 14:48
    @Heydon we're gathering use cases and requirements for date pickers here http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Datepickers
  184. LjWatson
    Jul 15 14:48
    @Heydon if you have anything to add, ping me?
  185. Heydon
    Jul 15 14:49
    @LjWatson Oh that's a brilliant idea. Will do!
  186. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 14:49
    Hi @AliciaJarvis!
  187. LjWatson
    Jul 15 14:50
    @MichielBijl there's a misconception that because a screen reader says something, that's how a screen reader user processes it. You see 15/7/2015 but that isn't what your inner voice says, anymore than mine does when my screen reader announces 15/7/2015.
  188. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 14:55
    @LjWatson that sounds reasonable, especially coming from you. I've been told that we should label/announce stuff as if you're explaining the page to someone. I've also been told that a non-sighted person processes screen reader information a lot quicker (I've heard your screen reader speech rate at one of your talks).
  189. LjWatson @LjWatson grins. Listening to a screen reader at default speed drives me bonkers!
  190. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 14:57
    Haha
  191. LjWatson
    Jul 15 14:57
    Seriously though, taking the approach of explaining everything is a slippery slope IMO. It's good to be helpful up to a point, but not to the extent that we (developers) have to go to all kinds of lengths to do it.
  192. LjWatson
    Jul 15 14:58
    Most screen reader users are used to the way their preferred AT works and cope pretty well.
  193. LjWatson
    Jul 15 14:59
    Welcome @callumacrae
  194. callumacrae
    Jul 15 14:59
    hiya
  195. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 14:59
    Hi callumacrae :)
  196. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 15:01
    @LjWatson I'll keep that in mind; just have to find the sweet spot I guess.
  197. LjWatson
    Jul 15 15:06
    Welcome @theanxy
  198. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 15:24
    Hi sharronrush :)
  199. LjWatson @LjWatson waves at @sharonrush
  200. theanxy
    Jul 15 15:40
    Hey @LjWatson et. all :)
  201. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 15:52
    Accessibility APIs: A Key To Web Accessibility - http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2015/03/16/web-accessibility-with-accessibility-api/
  202. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 16:07
    hi @alice
  203. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 16:34
    @MichielBijl can't find any examples of type=range used in wild, found a few but when i checked sites they were gone.only grepped 10,000 pages will try a deeper dive
  204. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 16:36
    Okay, thanks again!
  205. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 16:36
    np
  206. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 16:36
    Guess most sites just use div based stuff.
  207. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 16:36
    right
  208. MichielBijl
    Jul 15 16:37
    I don't need an actual implementation, but I just want to build something for the aria-apg that could actually be used, and makes sense to both sighted and non-sighted users. If you catch my drift.
  209. LjWatson
    Jul 15 16:38
    FYI Open Web Camp is on 1st Aug, at PayPal town hall in San Jose. Registration is just $10 for this one-day conf. Speakers include Christian Heilmann, Estelle Weyl, Doug Schepers, Alice Boxhall, Matt May, Marcy Sutton, Dirk Ginader, Chaals McCathie Nevile and me.
  210. LjWatson
    Jul 15 16:38
    http://openwebcamp.org/
  211. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 16:39
    @LjWatson was about to book my plane ticket then "and me."
  212. LjWatson @LjWatson throws something at @stevefaulkner
  213. Heydon
    Jul 15 16:41
    @stevefaulkner Did you have any comments RE http://www.sitepoint.com/accessible-footnotes-css/ ? I think you had concerns about the aria-describedby?
  214. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 16:42
    @Heydon have been playing with seems to work real sweet - currently picking eyes out of it for some work I am doing :-)
  215. Heydon
    Jul 15 16:43
    @stevefaulkner Oh nice :-)
  216. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 16:45
    FYI Gitter Keyboard short cuts https://gitter.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/201152592-Keyboard-shortcuts
  217. stevefaulkner
    Jul 15 16:47
    FYI Gitter (accessibility) Bugs can be filed here https://github.com/gitterHQ/gitter/issues
  218. stevefaulkner
    16:49
    @jitendravyas welcome!
  219. MichielBijl @MichielBijl waves at @jitendravyas
  220. mgifford
    16:56
    So what is the best practice with regard to spellcheck & CMS tools. Is it better to put faith in the built in browser spellchecker or say the one that comes with CKEditor. A document without spelling errors is ultimately more accessible to everyone, but it seems there isn't really a great initial option. https://www.drupal.org/node/2307141
  221. MichielBijl
    16:57
    Is there no spellcheck in Windows?
  222. stevefaulkner
    16:57
    hey @mgifford good question, don't know answer... @LjWatson may have some insight into spell checking
  223. LjWatson
    17:00
    @mgifford would include one in CK - that way there are options open to people.
  224. LjWatson
    17:01
    @MichielBijl a platform spellcheck probably wouldn't be much use. It would need to be browser based I suspect.
  225. pfulton
    17:03
    Hello folks. Thank you for setting up this chat - it's extremely helpful to have such a resource.
  226. stevefaulkner
    17:04
    @pfulton hope it proves useful
  227. pfulton
    17:04
    I have a question regarding the <abbr> tag, its title attribute, and how to best accommodate screenreaders
  228. mgifford
    17:04
    Thanks @LjWatson & @stevefaulkner
  229. stevefaulkner
    17:05
    @pfulton this may be a helpful starting point http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2013/01/using-the-html-title-attribute-updated/
  230. pfulton
    17:05
    Thanks, Steve! Just got done reading that, actually. :-)
  231. pfulton
    17:05
    I am marking up a list of events, where each event will have a day, month, and year, but the day and month can possibly be abbreviated.
  232. mgifford
    17:06
    @MichielBijl There's a spellcheck available in most browsers by default these days I think. Mine doesn't like how I've spelled "spellcheck" but it's not because gitter.im has anything built in. It's a question of whether you use a buggy native one or a buggy one in an editor.
  233. stevefaulkner
    17:06
    @pfulton if you have a code example would be helpful
  234. pfulton
    17:06
    sure, steve.
  235. pfulton
    17:06
    <abbr> with the full word as the title attribute in conjunction with voiceover seems to be problematic (as already documented)
  236. yatil
    17:07
    @pfulton, @stevefaulkner: I have found that some screen readers (at least) expand Tue et cetera automatically to Tuesday, so no need for <abbr> in that case, I think.
  237. pfulton
    17:08
    Example markup: https://gist.github.com/pfulton/7b3dd84b0ddbbfdb8ca4
  238. LjWatson
    17:09
    @pfulton I wouldn't use <abbr> to markup days of the week or months.
  239. mgifford
    17:09
    I don't know if there has been an accessibility review of this CKEditor plugin http://ckeditor.com/addon/scayt
  240. pfulton
    17:10
    @LjWatson thank you, Léonie
  241. LjWatson
    17:10
    If you do, just use the element per standards though. Most AT will do something different with it, and you'll disappear down a rabbit hole if you try to figure out a solution that works with all of them.
  242. pfulton
    17:10
    @LjWatson i was already headed down that rabbit hole ;-)
  243. pfulton
    17:12
    As a sighted person, I was surprised and disappointed to learn how wildly inconsistent the support for the <abbr> tag's title attribute is.
  244. stevefaulkner @stevefaulkner most things involving title attribute are a nightmare
  245. pfulton
    17:13
    Thank you again, everyone. This is an extremely valuable resource!
  246. stevefaulkner @stevefaulkner likes how gists are emdedded in chat
  247. stevefaulkner @stevefaulkner doesn't like the contrast ratio on some text
  248. stevefaulkner
    17:21
    bug filed gitterHQ/gitter#771
  249. kooje
    17:30
    hi all!
  250. JimBobSquarePants
    17:30

    Hi everyone,

    Quick question... I've been looking at the invert value that can be used for CSS outline-color property. According to the documentation for this on MDN browser support is extremely poor. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/outline-color#Browser_compatibility

    According to the spec this is due to the caveat :

    Conformant UAs may ignore the 'invert' value on platforms that do not support color inversion of the pixels on the screen. If the UA does not support the 'invert' value then the initial value of the 'outline-color' property is the value of the 'color' property, similar to the initial value of the 'border-top-color' property.

    Does anyone know more about this? What would be limiting adoption on certain browsers, why they would not wish to implement the feature etc?

    It seems like something incredibly useful to me.

  251. stevefaulkner
    18:07
    hi @kooje
  252. stevefaulkner
    18:24
    @JimBobSquarePants suggest you may get a better answer to your question at http://discourse.specifiction.org/
  253. JimBobSquarePants
    18:38
    @stevefaulkner Thanks for that. I'll ask there.
  254. normanbrobinson
    20:49
    Hi all! Thanks for that Powermapper link - it is one of the tools we're looking at purchasing and evaluating.
  255. powrsurg
    21:51
    I'm trying to make an SVG of a histogram chart accessible following the Paciello Group (who gave @stevefaulkner props for doing the hard work in 2013) article ( http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2013/12/using-aria-enhance-svg-accessibility/ ). I found that if I give the svg role="img" then the title and desc are read, but none of the text is read by NVDA in Firefox. If I don't include the role then the title and desc are not read, but the text within are read. What should I do?
  256. powrsurg
    21:57
    And IE11 behaves the same
  257. powrsurg
    21:58
    and Chrome too
  258. stevefaulkner
    22:30
    @powrsurg example code would be helpful
  259. stevefaulkner
    22:41
    Tuesday night, July 21 at 7pm in Boston for first @w3c Developers Meetup! https://twitter.com/W3C_DevTools/status/621434015594188800
  260. stevefaulkner
    23:16
    @jasonkiss 💋
  261. jasonkiss
    23:18
    @stevefaulkner Pooched out succulence.
  262. stevefaulkner
    23:19
    :smile: