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A11y Slackers
Gitter Channel Archive 20th of July 2015

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. stevefaulkner
    Jul 20 02:16
    "basically questioning the W3C recommendation to trap focus in modal windows" @som the recommendation is based on native implementations of JS alerts() etc. Suggest that whether users have access to the address bar or not is an implementation detail, not a divergence from the recommendation per se. Related discussion: Is there an html or WCAG definition of "modality" as it relates to keyboard behavior in a modal dialog? https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Apr/thread.html#msg158
  2. stevefaulkner
    Jul 20 02:24
    @som: note the only (so far) implementation of the HTML5 <dialog> element allows the address bar to receive focus http://s.codepen.io/stevef/debug/dPxgZq
  3. zakim-robot
    Jul 20 02:28
    Double posting was generated when zakim-robot was first enabled there has been none since as far zakim is [self] aware
  4. zakim-robot
    Jul 20 02:35
    [zakim robot, a11y] @Karl Groves: 01101101 01101001 01101110 01110101 01110011 00100000 01101111 01101110 01100101
  5. zakim-robot
    Jul 20 02:38
    [Karl Groves, a11y] @zakim robot: 01101101011010010110111001110101011100110010000001110111011010000110111100111111
  6. zakim-robot
    Jul 20 03:15
    [som, a11y] @Steve Faulkner: thanks, I’ll have a read. I’m yet to test the <dialog> in chrome/firefox, but I based some of the logic on how I would expect one to act within an iframe
  7. zakim-robot
    Jul 20 03:16
    [Alice Boxhall, a11y] ohai @poorgeek
  8. zakim-robot
    Jul 20 03:30
    [Justin Stockton, a11y] howdy!
  9. zakim-robot
    Jul 20 03:31
    [Justin Stockton, a11y] signed in to twitter today for the first time in ummm….forever, and saw everyone was on slack
  10. zakim-robot
    Jul 20 03:31
    [Justin Stockton, a11y] I need to get out more :disappointed:
  11. zakim-robot
    Jul 20 03:33
    [Karl Groves, a11y] @Justin Stockton: :tada:
  12. aardrian
    Jul 20 03:35
    Hey @zakim-robot, can the folks at Slack this conversation on Gitter?
  13. zakim-robot
    Jul 20 06:20
    [Michiel Bijl, a11y] @Justin Stockton: or stay in more :wink:
  14. zakim-robot
    Jul 20 06:21
    [Michiel Bijl, a11y] Michiel Bijl waves at <@U07SJ21JN|anatidae>
  15. zakim-robot
    Jul 20 07:14
    @aardrian computer says affirmative
  16. stevefaulkner
    Jul 20 07:23

    HTML5 Panels and Panel Sets Extension Specification http://bkardell.github.io/common-panel/index.src.html - work in progress, feedback welcome!

  17. zakim-robot
    Jul 20 07:59
    [Dean Birkett, a11y] Hey all, good to see an accessibility group - the channel in the User Experience Design group is a bit quiet!
  18. MichielBijl
    Jul 20 08:01
    @stevefaulkner: still think it's a great idea. I'll read it again this week and will put notes in git.
  19. MichielBijl
    Jul 20 08:01
    @dean: you’re welcome to start a conversation ;)
  20. zakim-robot
    Jul 20 08:03
    [Dean Birkett, a11y] Oh I’ve started a few there - last post 6 days ago, so it’s nice to see this a bit more lively!
  21. MichielBijl
    Jul 20 08:05
    We've coupled this with http://gitter.im/WICG/admin ;)
  22. MichielBijl
    Jul 20 09:34
    That is probably the smallest PR ever.
  23. stevefaulkner
    Jul 20 09:41
    @MichielBijl FYI i am working off https://github.com/w3c/a11ySlackers/tree/gh-pages which @sideshowbarker is stting to default and will delete master
  24. sideshowbarker
    Jul 20 09:41
    yup, done that just now
  25. MichielBijl
    Jul 20 09:41
    Whoops, will make future edits there.
  26. stevefaulkner
    Jul 20 09:49

    A11ySlackers Gitter Channel Archive 19th of July 2015

    http://w3c.github.io/a11ySlackers/archives/190715.html Now with added web-a11y slack
  27. stevefaulkner
    Jul 20 10:02
    FYI don't ask me why some of my messages get biggified in a11yslacker channel, if you know why please tell me :-)
  28. MichielBijl
    Jul 20 10:08
    Probably because Gitter loves its archives.
  29. stevefaulkner
    Jul 20 10:25
    @MichielBijl I did some work on the accessibility role/state/property mappings for panels spec while in Zaragoza recently, hence the pimping and request for feedback here :-)
  30. stevefaulkner
    10:56
    Really positive: https://twitter.com/stevefaulkner/status/623068691312328704
  31. MichielBijl
    10:59
    Very nice :)
  32. stevefaulkner
    11:08
    W3C Web Accessibility Initiative - Web Accessibility Tutorials http://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/
  33. zakim-robot
    11:10
    [Steve Faulkner, a11y] @Marcy Sutton: and all - note the piped rooms are an experiement, feel free to raise hand and can cut the pipe at any time
  34. stevefaulkner
    11:14
    Understanding screen reader interaction modes http://tink.uk/understanding-screen-reader-interaction-modes/ by @LjWatson
  35. zakim-robot
    12:27
    [Dean Birkett, a11y] I’m not as technical as you super smart folks, but I wrote about an accessibility problem that’s been bothering me for a while! Might make a nice coffee break read for someone. - http://deanbirkett.name/articles/ramp-requester/
  36. zakim-robot
    12:32
    [Joshua Marshall, a11y] Interesting post @Dean Birkett! Not sure what the prototype was supposed to display though - I just get an error Chrome about "too many redirects" and the embed isn't loading for me. Hopefully it's just an issue on my machine...
  37. stevefaulkner
    12:32
    @DeanBirkett - interesting have tweeted :-)
  38. zakim-robot
    12:33
    [Dean Birkett, a11y] oh strange, it’s an embed from Invision (sadly not the most accessible)
  39. zakim-robot
    12:33
    [Dean Birkett, a11y] many thanks @Steve Faulkner !
  40. zakim-robot
    12:40
    [Michiel Bijl, a11y] @Dean Birkett: do you have a direct link to the prototype? It isn’t loading in Safari.
  41. zakim-robot
    12:41
    [Michiel Bijl, a11y] Interesting article! The fold out ramp may be a good idea for future rolling stock.
  42. zakim-robot
    12:42
    [Dean Birkett, a11y] Strange - can you try this link, I’ll look into why it isn’t working in the embed - http://invis.io/WZ3M1VDP7
  43. zakim-robot
    12:42
    [Michiel Bijl, a11y] Some trains (like the Light Rail) are accessible by default; the floor is at the same height as the platform. Same goes for most trains in Switzerland.
  44. zakim-robot
    12:42
    [garcialo, a11y] @Steve Faulkner I think it's working well. Don't think there is any need for you to get your tube tied off.
  45. zakim-robot
    12:43
    [Dean Birkett, a11y] Some of the trains here in The Netherlands are so bad @Michiel Bijl - my local station, Amsterdam Muiderpoort, has a ‘step’ that is a struggle for most. The platform height is different at each station too.
  46. zakim-robot
    12:43
    [zakim robot, a11y] @garcialo: affirmative
  47. zakim-robot
    12:52
    [Michiel Bijl, a11y] @Dean Birkett: some feedback on the visuals: 1) I’d make the sign in link a button; I always hate it when onboarding new users is more important than logging in. 2) I’d move the menu items from the drawer thingy to a tab bar at the bottom of the screen. 3) Why not enable users to request a Disablet Persons Railcard in the app?
  48. zakim-robot
    12:57

    [Dean Birkett, a11y] Cheers @Michiel Bijl - I looked at the onboarding, and had a ‘skip’ link initially, but second guessed myself. I’ve seen some apps do it really well, but I’ll take it on board.

    2) I do like to show all (that wonderful lukew post jumps to mind - http://www.lukew.com/ff/entry.asp?1945 ) - but I figured that the primary task is to find a journey, and book a ramp - I felt that the other ‘settings’ and ‘contact’ would just get in the way, hence why I went with the drawer.

    3) Good idea. I put a link in there, which in reality would take you to the website - but yes, it should be more clear.

  49. zakim-robot
    12:59
    [Dean Birkett, a11y] I’m not sure that this will go any further than current state though - my dev skills are pretty limited, I could probably get it as far as a prototype in xCode, but when it comes to working with APIs and that sort of wizadry, it’s not in my skillset.
  50. zakim-robot
    14:42

    [Ben Brignell, a11y] On my site http://benbrignell.github.io/treehouse/|benbrignell.github.io/treehouse/ (currently a work in progress) I'm positioning some illustrations on the page. They contain no content so is a presentation role necessary?

    For now I've wrapped them like this:

    ```<div role="presentation">
    <div class="shoes"></div>
    <div class="bird"></div>

    <div class="ropeladder"></div>

    </div>```

    Is this the appropriate way to do this in this context?

  51. stevefaulkner
    14:44
    @benbrignell you shold not need role=presentation on <div> as in general the div element is not exposed in the accessibility tree
  52. zakim-robot
    14:45
    [Ben Brignell, a11y] ok, thanks!
  53. stevefaulkner
    15:20
    @benbrignell in some very limited circumstances a <div> is exposed and would require role=presentation to hide, otherwise its the semantically neutral element of choice (along with <span>)
  54. zakim-robot
    15:21
    [Ben Brignell, a11y] That's very clear, thanks
  55. zakim-robot
    15:22
    [Michiel Bijl, a11y] @Steve Faulkner: which instances would those be?
  56. stevefaulkner
    15:36
    @MichielBijl for instance when used as a child of elements with a role=tablist http://s.codepen.io/stevef/debug/dojxKr?
  57. stevefaulkner
    15:39
    @MichielBijl here is a gist we used to work out issue of AT misreporting tabs (due to <div> children) https://github.com/bkardell/common-panel/blob/gh-pages/test.html
  58. stevefaulkner
    15:43
    @MichielBijl the usual scenario where it causes issues is where you stick <div>s between elements with composite roles and their required children
  59. stevefaulkner
    16:03
    @MichielBijl see second list under widget roles for Composite roles: http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#widget_roles
  60. stevefaulkner
    16:24
    Got a free unlimited tube from https://sameroom.io/ (the tech we are using to bridge slack and gitter) \o/
  61. zakim-robot
    16:33
    [Ben Brignell, a11y] Are you able to use the same avatar you use on slack on gitter so it's easier to scan messages?
  62. zakim-robot
    16:37
    [Michiel Bijl, a11y] @Ben Brignell: Gitter is working on a new API; should be possible in the future.
  63. zakim-robot
    16:37
    [Michiel Bijl, a11y] @Steve Faulkner: awesome!
  64. zakim-robot
    16:39
    [Michiel Bijl, a11y] @Steve Faulkner: that makes sense. So the common-panel in the tab example receives a role without an explicit one set on it.
  65. zakim-robot
    17:21
    [Brian Kardell, a11y] ok, so... I have a question but I can't think of how to articulate it - who wants to help me figure that out :simple_smile:
  66. zakim-robot
    17:27
    [Katy Moe, a11y] You’ll have to give us a bit more to go on, @Brian Kardell :stuck_out_tongue:
  67. zakim-robot
    17:28
    [Brian Kardell, a11y] @Katy Moe: I'm just looking for someone I can explain the challenge to with a lot of words who can help me distill it down into a simpler question
  68. zakim-robot
    17:28
    [Brian Kardell, a11y] private chat or small room without filling up here with noise
  69. zakim-robot
    17:28
    [Katy Moe, a11y] I’ve PMed you
  70. zakim-robot
    17:35
    [Michiel Bijl, a11y] @Brian Kardell: private room will do :simple_smile:
  71. zakim-robot
    17:35
    [Michiel Bijl, a11y] small room*
  72. zakim-robot
    17:35
    [Brian Kardell, a11y] @Michiel Bijl: we're already kinda into it, will loop back if we get somewhere
  73. zakim-robot
    17:36
    [Michiel Bijl, a11y] Okay
  74. MichielBijl
    17:40
    @stevefaulkner: you're in PFWG right? Have you heard anything about todays telecon?
  75. stevefaulkner
    17:45
    @MichielBijl I am in PFWG but largely asynchronous participant, only attend telecons if I have to 😉
  76. MichielBijl
    17:46
    Okay :)
  77. MichielBijl
    17:47
    I'll wait and see.
  78. johnfoliot
    20:00
    @MichielBijl AFAIK, PFWG meets Wednesdays, noon Boston time.
  79. MichielBijl
    20:03
    Sorry, I was talking about the APG meeting.
  80. MichielBijl
    20:03
    Those are on Monday :)
  81. johnfoliot
    20:06
    they are :D
  82. MichielBijl
    20:06
    Just not today, because it was cancelled.
  83. MichielBijl
    20:07
    Or held in a secret location without me :p
  84. johnfoliot
    20:07
    (y)
  85. zakim-robot
    20:22
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] @jitendra we (the accessibility team) are pushing our visual designers to include keyboard and aural interactions in their specifications
  86. zakim-robot
    20:23
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] We're trying to teach them that even though a visual UI may not have a label for an icon, they still need to specify a label for it
  87. zakim-robot
    20:23
    [Katy Moe, a11y] @Jesse Beach: I had this very conversation with a UXer today. Labels aren’t just visual
  88. zakim-robot
    20:23
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] I like to pitch it like this: The modes of interaction that go un(der)specified will get filled in by developers in ways that are inconsistent across the application
  89. zakim-robot
    20:24
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] @Katy Moe nice!
  90. zakim-robot
    20:25
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] I would love for hotkeys mappings to be specified by the UX team, as a design layer concern
  91. zakim-robot
    20:27
    [Alice Boxhall, a11y] There's no emoji strong enough to express my joy on reading this @Jesse Beach
  92. zakim-robot
    20:27
    [Alice Boxhall, a11y] SO cool.
  93. zakim-robot
    20:28

    [Karl Groves, a11y] “The modes of interaction that go un(der)specified will get filled in by developers in ways that are inconsistent across the application”

    @Jesse Beach: can I use this (with citation of course)? I love it

  94. zakim-robot
    20:53
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] @Karl Groves: yes, definitely
  95. aardrian
    21:17
    @jesse Beach "The actors are improvising."
  96. kelseyq
    22:02
    hey! is this a good place to ask n00b accessibility questions? if not, is there a place?
  97. zakim-robot
    22:05
    [Kelsey Gilmore-Innis, a11y] i have a form wizard with two submit buttons and the first one goes back to the previous page, which seems wrong when you’re not using a mouse (it breaks submit-on-enter)
  98. zakim-robot
    22:05
    [Kelsey Gilmore-Innis, a11y] but i’ve been told to not mess with tabindex (at least not to set it 1+)
  99. zakim-robot
    22:06
    [Kelsey Gilmore-Innis, a11y] i could switch the order in the source and then place them in the opposite order visually with css but dunno if that’s right either?
  100. stevefaulkner
    22:22
    This message was deleted
  101. stevefaulkner
    22:26
    @kelseyq a code example would be helpful, but unclear why the 'back' button is a button when it navigates to the previous page?
  102. zakim-robot
    22:33
    [Kelsey Gilmore-Innis, a11y] sure: http://pastebin.com/nSCVeafG
  103. zakim-robot
    22:33
    [Kelsey Gilmore-Innis, a11y] (very simplified)
  104. zakim-robot
    22:33
    [Francis Storr, a11y] @Jesse Beach: can I use that quote as well? Tis a fine one.
  105. zakim-robot
    22:34
    [Kelsey Gilmore-Innis, a11y] pressing enter as it is now triggers the “Back” button on the wizard
  106. stevefaulkner
    22:42
    @kelseyq do you want the next button to be the tab stop after the text input?
  107. zakim-robot
    22:46
    [Kelsey Gilmore-Innis, a11y] @stevefaulkner i think that makes the most sense, since “back” usage will probably be less common, but visually the back button is in the lower left corner and the next button in the lower right and i wasn’t sure if it was a bad idea to have the tab order and the visual order (from left to right) be different
  108. zakim-robot
    22:48
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] @aardrian +1, @Francis Storr surely
  109. zakim-robot
    22:50
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] @Kelsey Gilmore-Innis, maybe just take the "type=submit" off the back button?
  110. zakim-robot
    22:51
    [Kelsey Gilmore-Innis, a11y] @Jesse Beach: it breaks the underlying behavior (this is generated by django)…i may be able to go in and change that, but i was hoping there was a way to do it without getting in the guts of django-formtools
  111. stevefaulkner
    22:54
    @kelseyq it is a good idea to keep the focus order logical, but in the case you describe the logical flow of the form is fill in text input then submit 'next' the form, so I don't think using CSS to position the buttons would be a problem.
  112. stevefaulkner
    22:54
    @kelseyq Caveat - I am no UXer ;-)
  113. zakim-robot
    22:56
    [Kelsey Gilmore-Innis, a11y] @stevefaulkner: hehe me neither if you can’t tell
  114. zakim-robot
    22:58
    [Kelsey Gilmore-Innis, a11y] case in point: i originally “fixed” it by removing “type=submit” as jesse suggests, and didn’t realize i broke back for several days :stuck_out_tongue:
  115. stevefaulkner
    22:58
    ha!
  116. stevefaulkner
    23:04
    @kelseyq and in answer to your question "hey! is this a good place to ask n00b accessibility questions?" YES, but you may not always get a useful answer ;-)
  117. zakim-robot
    23:04
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] ya, I guess in this case the back behavior is handled by the server, so taking out the submit type no longer submits the form
  118. zakim-robot
    23:05
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] Well, I would swap the order and then position the buttons absolutely to the bottom left and bottom right corners of the container
  119. stevefaulkner
    23:06
    If you are near Boston tomorrow -
    https://twitter.com/W3C_DevTools/status/621682859024121857
  120. zakim-robot
    23:06
    [Kelsey Gilmore-Innis, a11y] i talked myself into that and then back out, so it really helps to hear—thanks @Jesse Beach and @stevefaulkner!
  121. zakim-robot
    23:07
    [Kelsey Gilmore-Innis, a11y] and yay for other folks in here inculcating a11y standards in UX design and frameworks so i can think less :simple_smile:
  122. stevefaulkner
    23:07
    @kelseyq np!
  123. zakim-robot
    00:54
    [Karl Groves, a11y] @Francis Storr: @Cameron Cundiff: belated thanks on the congrats last week (I was on vacation)