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A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 22nd of September 2015

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. zakim-robot
    09:47
    [Pontus Horn af Rantzien, a11y] Is there a good resource on how to get screen readers to pronounce dates as dates? VoiceOver is insisting pronouncing it digit by digit even when marking it up with <time datetime=“…”> - but perhaps that’s just VoiceOver doing that?
  2. zakim-robot
    09:58
    [callumacrae, a11y] @pontus: There's a setting in voiceover, I can't remember where though
  3. zakim-robot
    09:58
    [callumacrae, a11y] I had this problem with prices
  4. zakim-robot
    09:58
    [callumacrae, a11y] You need to tell it to pronounce words, not digits
  5. zakim-robot
    10:05
    [Pontus Horn af Rantzien, a11y] Hmm, that makes it better, but it’s still explicitly pronouncing it in the format shown on screen (for example, a date localised as "22.09.2015" is pronounced “Twenty-two point oh-nine point two thousand fifteen”)… It’s a little strange. But I get the feeling it's a problem with VoiceOver rather than my markup
  6. stevefaulkner
    10:07

    [Pontus Horn af Rantzien, a11y] It’s a little strange. But I get the feeling it's a problem with VoiceOver rather than my markup

    bingo

  7. zakim-robot
    10:56
    [Ben Brignell, a11y] Stupid question: What's the sign up URL for this channel?
  8. zakim-robot
    11:07
    [callumacrae, a11y] That's odd
  9. zakim-robot
    11:24
    [jitendra, a11y] https://twitter.com/enableindia/status/646276847542505473
  10. garcialo
    13:27
    Ben. To access it via Slack, go to web-a11y.herokuapp.com The chat can also be viewed without need for login at https://gitter.im/w3c/a11ySlackers. If you have a GitHub account, you can use the latter URL to chat.
  11. jonathantneal
    13:42
    Y’all seen this? https://github.com/davidakennedy/a11yweekly.com
  12. jonathantneal
    13:53
    Oh hai, David Kennedy! :D
  13. zakim-robot
    13:55
    [David Kennedy, a11y] Thanks for the mention jonathantneal! For those interested: http://a11yweekly.com/ I’m starting a weekly newsletter, rounding up a11y news. I’m sure all of you will make it in at some point. :wink:
  14. zakim-robot
    13:56
    [Justin Stockton, a11y] …one way or another… :wink:
  15. jonathantneal
    13:57
    It’s spreading reasonably well! I just found out about it from a co-worker.
  16. zakim-robot
    13:58
    [David Kennedy, a11y] Cool. The Internet is neat! :simple_smile:
  17. RachelRVasquez
    13:58
    Signed up for the a11y newsletter David - looking forward to it. :-) < new and just jumped in here.
  18. zakim-robot
    13:59
    [Ben Brignell, a11y] @garcialo: thanks, I did a podcast interview which is out tomorrow which I give it a mention and the URL will be in the podcast references/notes!
  19. zakim-robot
    13:59
    [David Kennedy, a11y] Cool RachelRVasquez! Hopefully, I don’t disappoint. Also, welcome!
  20. RachelRVasquez
    14:00
    Thanks! :D
  21. jonathantneal
    14:06
    What’s the ratio of our friends on Gitter or Slack?
  22. garcialo
    14:07
    I think you can only know how many people have logged into each and maybe how many are logged in now?
  23. garcialo
    14:07
    I don't think it gives numbers on lurkers who don't login to Gitter
  24. garcialo
    14:07
    ...I know several people that use it just like that
  25. garcialo @garcialo waves!
  26. zakim-robot
    14:08
    [David Kennedy, a11y] I wondered that myself. Seems like a lot of folks use Gitter now. I’ve lurked in Slack for a long time. But I use Slack for work, so easier to just have it open than something else.
  27. garcialo
    14:09
    Ben, perhaps you should also send them this for reference https://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2015/07/anybody-can-be-an-a11y-slacker/
  28. aardrian
    14:10
    The column of user icons in Gitter says 209 members. I doubt that is everyone here now.
  29. garcialo
    14:11
    It could be people that just keep themselves logged in.
  30. aardrian
    14:11
    @garcialo I assume it's anyone who's made an account.
  31. garcialo
    14:18
    Yeah, that's what I would assume as well.
  32. powrsurg
    14:55
    is there a minimum font-size that is recommended for accessiblity?
  33. RachelRVasquez
    15:09
    I think that depends on the font-face doesn't it?
  34. RachelRVasquez
    15:10
    Along with the colors chosen.
  35. zakim-robot
    15:11
    [jitendra, a11y] I think the default browser font size should be considered as minimum
  36. jonathantneal
    15:12
    @powrsurg you can use tota11y to test this http://khan.github.io/tota11y/
  37. RachelRVasquez
    15:13
    Nice! I also like this tool for contrast too: http://leaverou.github.io/contrast-ratio/
  38. RachelRVasquez
    15:13
    As well as this one but it looks like it's down atm: http://contrast-finder.tanaguru.com/
  39. powrsurg @powrsurg forgot he had that installed :(
  40. powrsurg
    15:15
    actually, that isn't working for me in Firefox ... it was ...
  41. aardrian
    15:16
    @powrsurg I don't set a size, I just scale up in percentages for headings, contrast issues, etc. That way it leans on user's chosen base font size.
  42. powrsurg
    15:17
    that's actually a decent way of doing it
  43. stevefaulkner
    15:21
    @alice @dylanb re label https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Sep/0216.html asking the spec editor
  44. stevefaulkner
    15:34
    @alice @dylanb my statement about implementations was incorrect, they are all over the shop https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Sep/0217.html
  45. stevefaulkner
    15:38

    A11ySlackers Archive 21st of September 2015 http://w3c.github.io/a11ySlackers/archives/2015/09/2015-09-21.html

  46. zakim-robot
    15:58
    [dylanb, a11y] @stevef: yeah that is exactly my conclusion - in other words - this change is in the spec but not yet implemented, so not "accessibility supported" according to the WCAG 2 definition of that. I think we will hold off on changes to aXe until it is more widely supported.
  47. zakim-robot
    15:59
    [dylanb, a11y] @stevef: thanks for the effort :simple_smile:
  48. zakim-robot
    16:51
    [Marcy Sutton, a11y] “BRB asking the spec writer” <<— that will never not be damn cool :simple_smile:
  49. zakim-robot
    16:51
    [Marcy Sutton, a11y] Except maybe for the WHATWG HTML garbage fire...
  50. zakim-robot
    17:27
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] Hey all, I'm encountering bad behavior with an <abbr> tag and the title attribute in VoiceOver
  51. zakim-robot
    17:27
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] @stevef: has a nice article about the title attribute https://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2010/11/using-the-html-title-attribute/
  52. zakim-robot
    17:28
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] What I'm experiencing is both the title attribute content and the <abbr> content being announced by VoiceOver
  53. zakim-robot
    17:28
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] E.g. "Tuesday Sept. 22, 2015pm9hrs"
  54. zakim-robot
    17:29
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] Where the title ends in 5:15am and the content of the <abbr> is 9hrs
  55. zakim-robot
    17:29
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] JAWS with Firefox just reads the content, which is peachy
  56. zakim-robot
    17:30
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] I tried putting a non-visible space before the 9hrs and that works to separate the title and content, but it blew up hundreds of tests that do a string comparison of date output and I really don't want to alter reams of tests to accommodate a space char
  57. zakim-robot
    17:31
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] I'm wondering if the <abbr> tag is just the wrong tag for expressing a "time ago" concept while also making the full, precise date available
  58. aardrian
    17:32
    @Jesse I'm not sure why you are using a title attribute. What information are you trying to convey that you are ok excluding from anyone not using a mouse? Why not <time> for precise time?
  59. aardrian
    17:34
    To clarify, why not <time> instead of <abbr>?
  60. zakim-robot
    17:34
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] <abbr> is legacy for me. It's just what's baked into the component at the moment
  61. zakim-robot
    17:34
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] I could propose changing it
  62. zakim-robot
    17:35
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] looks up <time> browser support....
  63. aardrian
    17:36
    <abbr> seems like the wrong element altogether. Given that you want to display additional detail, you can do that with <time> without adding on meaning that isn't there.
  64. zakim-robot
    17:36
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] http://caniuse.com/#feat=html5semantic IE8, as always
  65. zakim-robot
    17:36
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] I don't know if we shim HTML5 elements on FB www
  66. zakim-robot
    17:36
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] looking...
  67. aardrian
    17:37
    My point is, <abbr> sounds wrong. <time> fixes the <abbr> problem, while also adding semantics for modern browsers (which need to still be removed in IE8).
  68. aardrian
    17:37
    If there is some IE8 support of <abbr> that you need to replicate, that's a different story.
  69. aardrian
    17:39
    Then you could consider aria-describedby on the <time> that points to an element holding your 9hrs note, which you can still display (inline or otherwise) on interaction (like focus or hover).
  70. zakim-robot
    17:39
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] Well, the issue is, IE8 won't style HTML5 elements unless they've been shimmed
  71. aardrian
    17:39
    Ah, and you need a custom style. Got it.
  72. zakim-robot
    17:39
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] you need to create the element in the document. It only knows about pre-HTML5 elements
  73. zakim-robot
    17:39
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] ya, it's the main timestamp on all Facebook posts
  74. aardrian
    17:40
    So <time><span>xxx</span></time>. Style the span. Class it, whatever.
  75. zakim-robot
    17:40
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] hmmm, clever...
  76. zakim-robot
    17:40
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] giving that a spin
  77. aardrian
    17:40
    Would that satisfy what you're trying to do?
  78. zakim-robot
    17:42
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] Perhaps
  79. zakim-robot
    17:42
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] <time> takes a date in UTC for the datetime attr
  80. zakim-robot
    17:42
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] err, is that attr?
  81. aardrian
    17:42
    Do you think the aria-describedby could address the title effect you wanted?
  82. zakim-robot
    17:43
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] another good idea, but VO treats descriptions as help text
  83. aardrian
    17:43
    You don't need to include the attr, but it's awesome to add. If you are doing any time calculation already, there is probably a function to output to UTC.
  84. zakim-robot
    17:43
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] it announces the presence after a 2-3 second focus pause
  85. zakim-robot
    17:43
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] It's kinda useless in most situations
  86. aardrian
    17:44
    Ah. I thought it might be better. Tooltips on title attributes also take a second or to before they display, so I thought aria-describedby was a good analogue.
  87. zakim-robot
    17:44
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] I like the <time> element with an inner span
  88. zakim-robot
    17:44
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] It should be
  89. zakim-robot
    17:44
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] but VO implements it in a mostly useless way
  90. aardrian
    17:45
    Gotcha. Then aria-labeledby, include the tooltip-text ID and the current ID so both are announced. Space separated.
  91. zakim-robot
    17:46
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] many good solutions here
  92. zakim-robot
    17:46
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] Lots to try out!
  93. zakim-robot
    17:47
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] I like the way you think :simple_smile:
  94. aardrian
    17:47
    Thanks, I usually don't like the way I think.
  95. zakim-robot
    17:47
    [Jesse Beach, a11y] ha!
  96. rodneyrehm
    20:13
    hm… may have found a simple enough hack to provide something like a “localized tabindex”, i.e. something like tabindex=“2”, but instead of applying to document level, it orders focus within a selected group only #heureka