A11y Slacker archive 2015-10-19

zakim-robot

02:21

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] @garcialo plan is definitely to include auditing :grinning:
garcialo

02:23

That makes me so happy. Thanks so much for all your hard work. I'll have to give you a hug next time I see you. =)
zakim-robot

03:23

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] Haha, glad to hear it! Hope you find the a11y node inspection useful in the meantime
garcialo

03:26

Most looking forward to trying out the contrast graph thing. I've been wanting a tool that does that for a while.
zakim-robot

03:56

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] Oh, someone on twitter pointed me to someone else's (independent) implementation
zakim-robot

03:57

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] http://www.stainlessvision.com/blog/files/ColourContrastVisualiser.swf
garcialo

04:01

Well, specifically I want a tool that takes a color as input and outputs a list or color wheel of colors that would meet WCAG requirements depending on which the user wants
garcialo

04:02

it looks like this graph doesn't quite work
garcialo

04:02

oh, or maybe I'm not fully understanding how to use it...
garcialo

04:03

Hmmm...no, it doesn't seem to be quite right.
zakim-robot

04:48

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] The devtools implementation is virtually identical to that one
zakim-robot

04:49

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] It just lets you pick sufficient contrast ratio colours
garcialo

04:55

Got Canary installed; Shawn said you had some instructions for how to check it out?
zakim-robot

05:01

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] Just a tic
zakim-robot

05:01

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] Btw I assume you know you can run Canary and another channel side by side
zakim-robot

05:03

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1wzJob0FRpWfSxDEkCo_VRsmo0E3ZOethWpOoaA91_y4/edit#slide=id.g63d390087_1_101
zakim-robot

05:04

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1wzJob0FRpWfSxDEkCo_VRsmo0E3ZOethWpOoaA91_y4/edit#slide=id.ga4b65b5d1_0_51 is for turning on the contrast ratio line thing, but:
zakim-robot

05:04

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] 1) You have to press shift 6 times to get the option to show up
zakim-robot

05:05

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] because it's a "hidden" experiment, because it's not even close to ready for prime time
zakim-robot

05:05

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] e.g. it doesn't tell you which side of the line is low contrast
zakim-robot

05:05

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] doesn't tell you the current contrast ratio value anywhere
zakim-robot

05:05

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] and only shows up if you have a background property set on the inspected element
zakim-robot

05:05

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] I'm going to bed now :simple_smile: enjoy!
garcialo

05:10

thanks a ton; sleep well =)
MichielBijl

08:40

@stevefaulkner sorry, I haven't installed El Capitain yet. Got kind of distracted this weekend.
stevefaulkner

10:24

@MichielBijl np
MichielBijl

13:12

@stevefaulkner any chance we can ditch target="_blank" from the spec?
MichielBijl @MichielBijl is getting sick of people asking him to add target="_blank" to url's “because it's better that way”
deborahgu

13:13

I never thought I'd long for more target=blank, but given the way people are using modals these days, I wish we could go back to those days
MichielBijl

13:14

You really want to go back to frames?
deborahgu

13:14

I want to move away from "Well, we can't navigate away from this page, but we have three screens of results and a 20-item form we need to show now -- ooh, badly-coded not-really-modal modal dialogs it is!"
deborahgu

13:15

each of which is coded differently, is bigger than a magnified or mobile viewable screen, doesn't keyboard capture or focus capture, don't have standard interactions or scrolling....
MichielBijl

13:16

Right, I forgot, today isn't much better :(
MichielBijl

13:16

Ah well, that's the web for you
deborahgu

13:16

:(
deborahgu

13:18

I wonder ...if we could come up with an ideal generalized user interface for that mode of interaction, what would it be?
MichielBijl

13:19

A new page…
deborahgu

13:19

Because ideally I feel like it would be something like target blank -- handled by the browser -- but it would bring up something that looked and acted more like a desktop-native application's dialog box.
zakim-robot

13:27

[Cameron Cundiff, a11y] curious to observe this happen http://techcrunch.com/2015/10/13/facebooks-working-on-a-tool-to-help-the-blind-see-images/
deborahgu

13:31

bonus for FB is that if they get that working, that's a lot more data to mine and sell. so they might actually do it.
deborahgu

13:33

although what is the FB user interface for posting pictures? Because I'd assume they could also make creating good alt easier.
deborahgu @deborahgu sadly admits is not on FB
zakim-robot

13:48

[callumacrae, a11y] that's amazing
zakim-robot

14:00

[Dean Birkett, a11y] Sounds like they are trying to achieve something a bit like Tap Tap See. http://www.taptapseeapp.com/
zakim-robot

14:51

[Klara Schmitt, a11y] Hi all, I have a question regarding keyboard focus. The primary call-to-action on our homepage is running a search. I have been asked to make keyboard focus on the search input - similar to google.com. Having keyboard focus immediately on the search does make sense from the UX perspective, but I expect it would be a weird landing point for screenreaders. Is there a way I could make it more accessible and still fulfill this request?
garcialo

14:57

Is the homepage similar to google.com in that the main reason people go there is to perform the search? Or is it a fairly normal homepage that has a search on it and lots of other content. If it's the former, I think it would be fine, especially if there is little to no content before the search.
deborahgu

15:00

agreed. but if there are other things people might do, or any content below the fold on a reasonable size monitor (laptop, tablet) it can make for a worse experience for keyboard, speech, and screen reader users.
deborahgu

15:00

also,if the focus is going to be in the search box, it's important that the labels be clear enough and the page title be clear enough that a screen reader user who appears at a new page in a search box knows what it is therefore, where they are, and what they should be doing now.
zakim-robot

15:05

[Klara Schmitt, a11y] There is other content on the homepage. But the search is near the top. We basically have three links and a heading above the search. But our site is sort of like a information catalog, so the search really is the primary action.
powrsurg

15:06

is there a way to prevent iOS' VoiceOver from auto-focusing in on an image inside of a div that where the parent received focus? It seems to happen sometimes, but not others and I'm not sure when it does ...
zakim-robot

15:12

[Klara Schmitt, a11y] But thanks. This gives me things to think about. I think with a better title, we could pull off the same content that we've got in the heading. But I would need to improve the labels. They are fine with context, but would make less sense with just a "bam here you are!"
zakim-robot

15:14

[Chris DeMars, a11y] I have heard it pronounced two different ways. What is the correct way? "Al-ee" or "al-eye" even heard this one "a-eleven-why"
zakim-robot

15:20

[Jordan Scales, a11y] @saltnburnem I started saying “a-leven-y” (eleveny) and it caught on at Khan Academy
garcialo

15:21

Considering it's a convention specifically used to shorten the word, there isn't any sort of "official" way of saying it. I've mostly heard A-eleven-Y at conferences, so the descriptive grammarian thinks that's the way it should be said.
garcialo

15:22

It's kind of like www
garcialo

15:22

...btw, I pronounce that was dub-dub-dub because it's fun
deborahgu

15:22

a11y is pronounced "gif" with a hard G.
garcialo

15:23

Always use the hard G!
deborahgu

15:23

I have been sternly schooled for saying "double-you cag" instead of Wuh-cag.
garcialo

15:24

hah
garcialo

15:25

I personally like the way "WIH-cag" sounds, but I pronounce it "wuh-CAG"
zakim-robot

15:26

[bdruth, a11y] while we’re on the topic - can we agree on tabs v. spaces? still not sure where to go with that :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
deborahgu

15:28

spaces, vim, paper under the toilet paper roll, over medium, and "regular" means cream and sugar. :D
powrsurg

16:04

Okay, can someone explain to me why ChromeVox seems to give up on reading the radio buttons / labels when you hit the "next" button a few times? http://codepen.io/powrsurg/pen/ojoxaB
powrsurg

16:05

"List with four items. List item image" or simply "List" will get read off
zakim-robot

16:32

[dylanb, a11y] my vote (if anyone cares) is a-eleven-y for the term itself (in keeping with the i18m and l10n pronunciations) but its ok to use "Ally" if it forms part of a word e.g. tota11y or holistica11y...
zakim-robot

16:37

[bdruth, a11y] I’m not sure why it wouldn’t be pronounced ‘accessibility’ - it’s a shortcut for the purposes of writing, only, IMO
zakim-robot

16:37

[bdruth, a11y] a-eleven-y is 5 syllables, accessibility is 6 (if I’m counting right)
zakim-robot

16:37

[bdruth, a11y] so … ?
zakim-robot

16:38

[bdruth, a11y] basically, what @garcialo indicated
zakim-robot

16:38

[dylanb, a11y] hey, the number of times I say it, that is a significant saving :wink:
zakim-robot

16:38

[bdruth, a11y] lol
zakim-robot

16:38

[bdruth, a11y] fair enough :wink:
LjWatson

16:45

18th 3am, 2.15pm, 7pm, 11.15am.
garcialo

16:48

I do sometimes say "a-1-1-y" - and for the record, I hate numeronyms
garcialo

16:49

I'm sure @LjWatson is making a good point. Must say I'm a bit slow on what it is.
zakim-robot

17:29

[jitendra, a11y] 10 Best Accessibility-Ready WordPress Themes
http://www.hongkiat.com/blog/accessibility-ready-wordpress-themes/
deborahgu

18:13

Backbone.js question: I've been handed some code in backbone that has...what is the opposite of accessibility? Is it "charging rhinos"? This code has charging rhinos.
zakim-robot

18:14

[rodneyrehm, a11y] what does that have to do with backbone?
deborahgu

18:14

Does anyone have experience making backbone javascript accessible, aside from writing in all the functionality from the ground up?
zakim-robot

18:15

[rodneyrehm, a11y] Backbone basically is writing everything from the ground up, unless you have created your own abstractions for that
deborahgu

18:15

It has to do with backbone in that the code is in backbone, and I am trying to see if there are backbone-native ways to make, say, a modal accessible.
zakim-robot

18:16

[rodneyrehm, a11y] backbone has no native way
deborahgu

18:17

okay, that's good to know, thanks.
zakim-robot

18:17

[rodneyrehm, a11y] and by that I mean it “is not opinionated”, meaning it just gives you a set of tools, what you do with them is up to you
deborahgu

18:20

that's quite useful; it means it's perfectly normal to manually add keyboard even listeners, then. They aren't implicit somewhere.
zakim-robot

18:21

[rodneyrehm, a11y] yep
zakim-robot

18:21

[rodneyrehm, a11y] …unless you come up with your own magic stuff that implicitly does things like that
deborahgu

18:23

cool, thanks
zakim-robot

20:55

[Carolyn MacLeod, a11y] @klara: does your site have landmarks? That might help screen reader users figure out what else is out there when they land "bam" on the search. So, your three links and a heading might go nicely in a <nav> (which has default landmark role="navigation") and/or <header> (default role="banner"), and your search could have role="search" (on the parent of the search form, perhaps). But you're right that making sure your labels are all in place will be very helpful.
zakim-robot

21:33

[Brian Kardell, a11y] ok - anyone have a source of vanilla custom elements that doesn't require polymer or x-tags or something where I can find a tree control where all the a11y stuff is figured out?
zakim-robot

21:34

[Brian Kardell, a11y] I'm assuming no since I have been looking, but before I go to the next logical step which is to say "anyone interested in collaborating on one" I wanted to make sure
zakim-robot

22:02

[Carolyn MacLeod, a11y] Not sure if this is helpful: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20-TECHS/aria.html#ARIA4-ex2
or any of the TreeView examples here: http://oaa-accessibility.org/examples/
but maybe... :simple_smile: Please let us know if they are.
zakim-robot

22:02

[Klara Schmitt, a11y] @car Yes, we do have landmarks and generally my team has been good about working accessibility into our app. But I usually do the research and then advise the engineers. :)
zakim-robot

22:03

[Carolyn MacLeod, a11y] Ah, ok. I was pretty sure you would have them, but thought I'd mention it just in case. :simple_smile:
zakim-robot

22:05

[Carolyn MacLeod, a11y] @car agrees that the yellow auto-smilies are a bit overpowering...
zakim-robot

22:06

[Klara Schmitt, a11y] Thanks though. That's why I come here. To find folks who can help answer the issues I get stumped on.
zakim-robot

22:08

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] In case anyone didn't realise, you can configure/turn off the auto-smilies via Preferences -> Emoji
zakim-robot

22:10

[Carolyn MacLeod, a11y] Thanks, @alice! Done. :)
zakim-robot

22:10

[Carolyn MacLeod, a11y] That's better.
zakim-robot

22:10

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] \o/
zakim-robot

22:14

[Klara Schmitt, a11y] The world tries very hard to make us accept cute little emojis and we rebel for plain punctuation on a 90 degree angle.
zakim-robot

22:19

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] IOW the world can get off our respective lawns :wink: (I was born in the early 80s! I remember when smileys were a new thing!)
zakim-robot

22:33

[chandra carney, a11y] @cameron: I think I have a friend at MailChimp, I will reach out to her and try to connect you two.
zakim-robot

23:03

[Cordelia McGee-Tubb, a11y] Question about accessible menus. I’ve seen several examples and they seem to be split across two implementations: One that supports separate highlighted/selected states for hover and focus — So if I had a menu A, B, C, D with keyboard focus on A and I hovered on item C, both would appear selected, and if I pressed the down arrow key, my focus would move to B. The other implementation I’ve seen has a single highlighted state — So if I have keyboard focus on A and hover on item C, my focus would jump to C and pressing the down arrow would select D. I’m wondering, which is preferable? Or does it not matter if we assume most users will navigate either by mouse or by keyboard but not both at once?
zakim-robot

23:16

[rodneyrehm, a11y] setting focus on hover sounds like a horrible idea
zakim-robot

23:17

[rodneyrehm, a11y] (although I’m pretty sure I’ve done that myself in the past - likely because I had no idea what I was doing)
zakim-robot

23:20

[rodneyrehm, a11y] while not formally specified anywhere, it is the mousedown event that shifts focus. wiring focus-shift up with mouseenter is non-conforming behavior
zakim-robot

23:22

[Cordelia McGee-Tubb, a11y] Yeah, I’m not a fan of setting focus on mouseenter either, but there’s a usability tradeoff there, as having two menu items with the same “highlighted” style is confusing.
garcialo

23:23

You could distinguish between keyboard focus/mouse hover by color.
garcialo

23:26

Actually, it looks like the Open Ajax menu does exactly that. =p http://www.oaa-accessibility.org/examplep/menubar1/
garcialo

23:26

And you can dual navigate! Awesome =)
zakim-robot

23:26

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] Another option might be to hide the focus style on mouseenter
zakim-robot

23:27

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] So hover doesn't actually move the focus (but click would move both focus and selection) but you don't show both hover and focus styles simultaneously
garcialo

23:27

As long as the menu allows you to have menu races between left/right hands, I'd love it.
zakim-robot

23:28

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] On mouseout you'd see neither hover nor focus
zakim-robot

23:28

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] Till you moved focus again
zakim-robot

23:28

[Cordelia McGee-Tubb, a11y] ^ Oh, I like that Alice.
zakim-robot

23:28

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] I basically keep iterating on http://radar.oreilly.com/2015/08/proposing-css-input-modailty.html and pretending like they're new ideas :stuck_out_tongue:
zakim-robot

23:29

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] (Also please join us in @focus-styling if these ideas are intriguing to you)
zakim-robot

23:29

[Cordelia McGee-Tubb, a11y] (I’m in there! Yeah, this is tough stuff. Especially when people switch between the two.)
zakim-robot

23:29

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] \o/
zakim-robot

23:30

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] Did you see my most recent comment in there?
zakim-robot

23:30

[Cordelia McGee-Tubb, a11y] which?
zakim-robot

23:30

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] About the user study
zakim-robot

23:31

[Cordelia McGee-Tubb, a11y] Ah, yes!
zakim-robot

23:34

[Alice Boxhall, a11y] Cool :simple_smile: Please jump in if you have any ideas! It sounds like you're already thinking about this stuff a bunch
zakim-robot

23:45

[Brian Kardell, a11y] @car: I know there are examples of how to build the complex markup and javascript, many require other libraries too - custom elements would allow you to do something like <common-tree> <ul>....</ul> </common-tree> and be done with it. Simple, declarative, all the complexity wrapped up in a neat little easily sharable package
zakim-robot

23:45

[Brian Kardell, a11y] that's what I'm looking for - custom elements.
zakim-robot

23:50

[Brian Kardell, a11y] @car if there are none, we should build them. If you build them, they will come. :stuck_out_tongue:

Gitter Channel Archive 19th of October 2015