I have a question for all of you esteemed late night a11y'ers: would it be possible to change heading hierarchy between an article feed and an article detail page?
MichielBijl
Oct 27 00:42
Busy with my blog, and on a detail page the title should be a h1, but on the index, it should be a h2 (as a sub heading to the page title: Articles).
MichielBijl
Oct 27 00:42
If I can't change the hierarchy I
MichielBijl
Oct 27 00:43
I'd have to choose between having lots of h1's on the index, and having headings skip a level in detail views :(
MichielBijl
Oct 27 00:46
I think I'd rather have multiple h1's on the index then
Might want to update the link in that blog post (it's broken).
stevefaulkner
01:02
will do
simonewebdesign
10:12
Hi all. Got a question about <input type=“date”>. In my company we agreed to use HTML5 form validation. The problem is that AFAIK the date picker can’t get styled, so the proposal is to “get rid of it” on desktop browsers, replacing it with a custom one, while preserving the native appearance for mobile browsers. Does it sound like a reasonable approach?
MichielBijl
10:37
How does one “preserve the native appearance for mobile”?
MichielBijl
10:37
Would be kind of hard with the 10 billion or so different OS/browser combinations out there.
MichielBijl
10:38
Or would that use an <input type="date">?
simonewebdesign
10:43
I mean, mobile and tablets would use the natively rendered <input type="date">, but not Chrome on a desktop
MichielBijl
11:14
I don't have enough experience with the type=date on mobile devices.
MichielBijl
11:14
So I cannot tell you whether or not that is a good idea.
alt="iTunes showing track listing for the A11y Rocks album."
powrsurg
13:35
Stupid question: how do you actually tab to the color picker window in Firefox when dealing with <input type="color"> ?
MichielBijl
13:36
I think you are supposed to use the arrow keys to change the value
MichielBijl
13:36
Right Arrow and Up Arrow increase the value of the slider.
Left Arrow and Down Arrow decrease the value of the slider.
Home and End move to the first and last values of the slider.
Tab into and out of the slider.
Page Up and Page Down optionally increment or decrement the slider by a given amount.
MichielBijl
13:36
Oh thanks Gitter for keeping the formatting…
MichielBijl
13:38
Hmm, on OS X I can just tab to it and use arrow keys, home, end, etc to influence it
MichielBijl
13:38
But that uses the native color picker of OS X
powrsurg
13:38
I mean, the popup window for selecting the color doesn't receive focus and can't be accessed via the keyboard
powrsurg
13:38
this might be OS specific. I'm on Windows 7
powrsurg
13:39
it's definitely the OSes default color picker. I just can't get to it through anything but a mouse. But once I click on it I can use my keyboard to do stuff
MichielBijl
13:39
Hmm, maygbe alt+tab to it?
powrsurg
13:40
Chrome brings up the same exact window, but it was given immediate focus
MichielBijl
13:40
Hmm
powrsurg
13:41
okay, if alt+tab to another program and then alt+tab again back to Firefox the focus is on the color picker
StommePoes
13:41
I had the same issue with Opera's
StommePoes
13:42
remember back when Opera was like the only browser to even have an HTML5 colour picker? There was no keyboardable way to get into it. I told Bruce L but I dunno if it ever got fixed, I saw so few HTML pickers in the wild
MichielBijl
13:44
WebKit still doesn't support it…
powrsurg
13:45
Pre-Chrome Opera was kinda funny. It implemented different HTML5 features than other browsers at the time. Nothing wrong with it, but it was weird to see stuff that didn't work in Opera work in other browsers and vice versa
powrsurg
13:45
They were the first to do datalist for example
powrsurg
13:45
@MichielBijl does the switching app and then switching back thing solve it?
MichielBijl
13:46
In Firefox?
StommePoes
13:47
yeah I still have a datalist example that I check in my Opera 12, it was magnificent
StommePoes
13:47
Micheal Lockery you here??
StommePoes
13:47
michAEl
powrsurg
13:49
er, I misread what you said about webkit
powrsurg
13:49
I really need to drink more coffee
MichaelLockrey
13:49
@StommePoes here I am!
MichaelLockrey
13:49
Just done a night of testing using Google Hangouts on Air
I wasn't aware you could do manual captioning stream
MichaelLockrey
13:50
typing the dialogue yourself or nominating a fast typist etc
MichielBijl
13:50
All I did was tab to the picker, press space to activate, then press tab to tab through the tabs (yeah right). Pressed esc to close the window and confirm my selection.
powrsurg
13:51
@MichielBijl okay, so the issue seems to be just Firefox on Windows then
StommePoes
13:51
Michael I didn't know either, you'd think then you need a special steno keyboard or something?
MichaelLockrey
13:51
They have restricted the steno side to StreamText
StommePoes
13:51
bleh
MichaelLockrey
13:51
which a lot of stenos don't want to use or pay for or both!
MichaelLockrey
13:52
So that's locking out a lot of stenos from the outset
MichaelLockrey
13:52
So that's not just on HOA*
MichaelLockrey
13:52
Hangouts on Air
StommePoes
13:52
I know a Chinese girl, she has a "normal" (dutch) laptop here (has US keyboard) and she can hit a switch and switch her kb over to Chinese, you'd think someone'd come up with a software solution for steno-on-normal-kb
MichaelLockrey
13:52
You can also do manual captioning yourself in a normal Google Hangout
StommePoes
13:53
Hey but it's still not possible for someone not the film owner to caption a video that's on YT, right?
MichaelLockrey
13:53
There's an open source steno solution gaining traction
MichaelLockrey
13:53
Plover
MichaelLockrey
13:53
Miribai in NY
MichaelLockrey
13:53
But it's slow going
StommePoes
13:53
because there's a guy with a cool mouthstick video and someone in the comments said "hey no captions" and he didn't know how to do it
MichaelLockrey
13:53
It's open source
StommePoes
13:53
but does it connect to YT?
StommePoes
13:53
or, does YT let it connect/
StommePoes
13:53
?
MichaelLockrey
13:54
If you do a HOA it gets posted to YT and the auto craptions will come into play then
Because that alpha-beta thing Google showed at CSUN was like, super-beta and some famous kid (I dunno who) made videos and opened his videos to fan-crowd-captioning but it was some hidden setting or something
MichaelLockrey
13:54
Tyler someone?
StommePoes
13:54
ha I love that name stenosaurus
StommePoes
13:55
I can't remember, it was some vlogger? or maybe a singer
StommePoes
13:55
Young guy
MichaelLockrey
13:55
Right
MichaelLockrey
13:55
That's been around for a while
MichaelLockrey
13:55
Most YT fans don't want to do all the transcribing work though
StommePoes
13:55
But so I'd like to be able to go to the mouth-stick-guy's video and add what captions I can (I like captions myself because everything is mumbly to me)
MichaelLockrey
13:56
What's the link?
MichaelLockrey
13:56
I'd be happy to help
StommePoes
13:56
lemme check
garcialo
13:56
@StommePoes I think Amara allows you to do something like that. As in, they'll just host a page with the captions that embeds his video...they obviously can't just add it to his.
his video is still enough that I could caption most of it
MichaelLockrey
13:58
You could fix this one in nomorecraptions.com too
StommePoes
13:58
s/still/quiet
StommePoes
13:58
Yeah but then how can others see those captions?
MichaelLockrey
13:58
It's got auto craptions
StommePoes
13:58
or does that just make a permanent new URL?
StommePoes
13:58
yeah it does
MichaelLockrey
13:58
It makes a new URL for each video
StommePoes
13:58
ah
MichaelLockrey
13:58
which you can share
StommePoes
13:58
and so I could spread that one
MichaelLockrey
13:58
And you send the guy the caption file as well - download it and send it to him
MichaelLockrey
13:59
And he can put on his channel
StommePoes
13:59
I could give it to him so he could spread a new URL
StommePoes
13:59
I need to learn about caption files and special weird thingies, I have no idea how stuff does timing, or how it can know when to move up to the top of the screen etc
MichaelLockrey
13:59
You'd be better off downloading an SBV caption file for Youtube and giving that him in the comments
MichaelLockrey
13:59
Or via email if you know him
StommePoes
13:59
Cause auto-craptions also cover things like people's names or tickers sometimes
StommePoes
13:59
I don't know him that well but he's on sitepoint and twitter
MichaelLockrey
14:00
Yes but remember these are closed captions and they can be turned on or off
MichaelLockrey
14:00
Don't let these little issues sway you from the big #a11y picture
MichaelLockrey
14:00
Which is they're essential
StommePoes
14:01
no but in movies they can move them around
StommePoes
14:01
and I'm pretty sure you can set that stuff too with vtt or something
StommePoes
14:01
also colours
MichaelLockrey
14:02
You can
StommePoes
14:02
cool
iandevlin
14:03
I am reading this conversation with interest.
MichaelLockrey
14:03
MichaelLockrey
14:03
Straightaway I've given up watching this video
MichaelLockrey
14:03
My mind isn't on #a11y any longer!
StommePoes
14:03
zomg I need to use this screenshot for my a11y talk
MichaelLockrey
14:04
It's even worse on mobile
MichaelLockrey
14:04
The auto craptions come up
StommePoes
14:04
also that film you sent me where one of the PMs is called Mr Shit
MichaelLockrey
14:04
or should I say - shoot up
MichaelLockrey
14:04
one word at a time
MichaelLockrey
14:04
at a rate of knots that are impossible to keep up with
MichaelLockrey
14:04
and as someone who uses captions every day - I can handle them fast
MichaelLockrey
14:04
He was!
MichaelLockrey
14:05
They were right ;)
MichaelLockrey
14:05
Hi @iandevlin
MichaelLockrey
14:06
Make sure you check out auto craptions on YouTube's mobile iOS app
StommePoes
14:06
Yeah it would be kinda cool if later on they add controls for the captions that users could set stuff themselves: speed, colour-contrast, etc. And with HTML5 video and caption standards that could maybe later be a thing
MichaelLockrey
14:06
It's appalling
MichielBijl
14:06
There was a video where the former Australian PM called the Indonesian PM an ass or something.
MichielBijl
14:06
Can;t quite remember
MichaelLockrey
14:06
It's not accessibility in any shape or form
MichaelLockrey
14:06
@MichielBijl Yep
MichielBijl
14:06
It was in a video meant to apologise to Indonesia too :')
StommePoes
14:06
oh I think I remember that one too
MichaelLockrey
14:06
Joking Widow!
MichielBijl
14:06
That's the one!
MichaelLockrey
14:07
I know it's fun a lot of the time for you guys
MichaelLockrey
14:07
But if you rely on captioning - it's a bitter pill to swallow as more and more content moves over to online video
StommePoes
14:08
Oh since we're talking in general real-time, Michael: I want to ask permission to use a sort of persona of you for my captions part of an a11y talk. Where maybe I say your first name and how you use captions... I'm going to have 5 "personas", most of which are real people if they OK it
MichaelLockrey
14:08
You bet
StommePoes
14:08
I use captions, I don't completely rely on them but when they are gone I miss a lot
MichaelLockrey
14:08
Captioning Kamikaze slot isn't taken yet is it?
StommePoes
14:08
haha
MichielBijl
14:09
I try to use captions
MichielBijl
14:09
But they are often lacking
MichaelLockrey
14:09
Well in terms of a persona - what level of detail do you need?
MichielBijl
14:09
Try and watch a video on NOS.nl
StommePoes
14:09
I want to introduce web accessibility to a general group of multi-language developers (so mostly NOT frontenders) and I want use cases (how people use/access content) and input methods (so Chris Hills for example with his switch)
MichielBijl
14:09
State owned media that doesn't do captions :o
MichaelLockrey
14:10
Right
StommePoes
14:10
and so I'm just hitting like 4-5 major disability/use issues that developers could be aware of and then I show how to deal with it in code and how easy it could be to fix
MichielBijl
14:10
@StommePoes I'm giving a similar talk somewhere in the near future, maybe share ideas?
MichaelLockrey
14:10
Well funnily enough I've been using beta.tveeder.com a lot lately
StommePoes
14:10
not very detailed at all, but I don't want to use someone's name if they'd be like oh no way
MichaelLockrey
14:10
To read TV
MichaelLockrey
14:10
as it's just an open source grab of the TV's captions
StommePoes
14:10
teletype is still going in NL for some reason
StommePoes
14:11
I think it's teletype
StommePoes
14:11
we don't have a TV so I'm not sure
MichaelLockrey
14:11
Teletext?
StommePoes
14:11
but my parents in law do, I've seen it there
StommePoes
14:11
maybe that's it
MichaelLockrey
14:11
That's the old analogue text isn't it?
MichielBijl
14:11
Teletext is still a thing yes
MichaelLockrey
14:11
I thought that went out with digital?
StommePoes
14:11
I'm not sure what it does but there was a news articlke about how it's dead everywhere but popular in NL because of football etc
StommePoes
14:11
Yeah people here actually watch text
StommePoes
14:11
Football, weather, not sure what else
MichaelLockrey
14:12
Right
MichielBijl
14:12
News
MichaelLockrey
14:12
Yep
StommePoes
14:12
geez NOS has an app for it even
MichielBijl
14:12
They actually carried it over to digital
MichaelLockrey
14:12
Well I guess the main bug bear I have at the moment
MichaelLockrey
14:12
is the lack of awareness online
MichielBijl
14:12
I think it shows that people care about content more than design…
MichaelLockrey
14:12
TV - traditional media is all regulated and covered off
But online its a huge problem and in a lot of cases they already have a transcript just sitting there
MichaelLockrey
14:13
or a script or whatever
MichaelLockrey
14:13
That has hidden #a11y potential!
StommePoes
14:13
Yeah that's why I want to give my talk, I want to show differnt ways people access online content and let developers know how often people are blocked and they don't even know it
StommePoes
14:14
and they'll think it's cool to hear a real screen reader, see a real screen mag, and I want to show something of Chris Hill's video showing his switch software cause I don't have any
MichaelLockrey
14:14
My mate with CP
MichaelLockrey
14:14
uses eye tracking for his pc usage
StommePoes
14:14
yeah if there's a script first and then they make a video, it's so easier to add in captions or at least transcript
MichaelLockrey
14:14
And he's getting really good at it
StommePoes
14:14
I didn't know he used eye tracking
MichaelLockrey
14:15
We can have a skype chat that goes for an hour
StommePoes
14:15
Huh, I wonder if 3MouseTech should contact him
StommePoes
14:15
we're working on this thing called the Muse headband
MichaelLockrey
14:15
and before it was really hard on him (physically)
StommePoes
14:15
and it reads EEGs and we're making something so people can control a book reading app with it
MichaelLockrey
14:15
But with the eye tracking UX he's barely raising a sweat
StommePoes
14:15
but it oculd be so much more
StommePoes
14:15
so what's different? does it account for uncontrolled eye movements?
MichaelLockrey
14:15
transcript is 80% of the work
StommePoes
14:15
or are his eyes pretty steady for this?
MichaelLockrey
14:16
It's accessible info in it's own right
MichaelLockrey
14:16
His eyes are pretty well controllable
MichaelLockrey
14:16
But his other body movements are more ..... diverse and
StommePoes
14:16
yeah I often avoid videos answers online when I'm searching something because then speakers blah blah and videos are SLOW
MichaelLockrey
14:16
harder to control
StommePoes
14:16
so I look for transcripts all the time
StommePoes
14:16
yeah, so he uses this eye tracker along with his switch, togetyher?
StommePoes
14:16
one software or two?
MichaelLockrey
14:17
I will have to check in with him
StommePoes
14:17
We should get him on here... what time is it there?
MichaelLockrey
14:17
He has a PhD so he's as sharp as a tack
StommePoes
14:17
wait, chris hills?
MichaelLockrey
14:17
Much cleverer and smarter than me
MichaelLockrey
14:17
But I only skype with him
StommePoes
14:17
He's really young, he already has a PhD?
MichaelLockrey
14:17
Oh sorry
StommePoes
14:17
different person?
MichaelLockrey
14:17
I was talking about my mate in South Australia
StommePoes
14:17
Chris hills is also in S oz
MichaelLockrey
14:17
Late
StommePoes
14:17
Melbourne I think
StommePoes
14:17
?
MichaelLockrey
14:18
Right
MichielBijl
14:18
That mouth stick video is impressive.
MichaelLockrey
14:18
Bit late
StommePoes
14:18
But I thought he was like 18 or maybe it's like when you meet kids (first saw his vids when he was 16) and you forget they're way older now
StommePoes
14:18
He's a final cut pro video editor
MichaelLockrey
14:18
Right
StommePoes
14:18
tweets all the time about video editing
StommePoes
14:18
ok must be the same guy
MichaelLockrey
14:19
That's impressive
StommePoes
14:19
Yeah Michiel that guy's a whiz with the stick.
StommePoes
14:19
He's also a "barefoot enthousiast"
MichielBijl
14:19
Nice :D
StommePoes
14:19
I thought that was funneh
MichaelLockrey
14:19
Glad you typed that right!
MichielBijl
14:19
Go Barefoots!
StommePoes
14:19
hehe
MichaelLockrey
14:20
Good for the Twitter bio
MichaelLockrey
14:20
Can't be too many of them
MichaelLockrey
14:20
Do we know who the Head of Accessibility at YouTube is yet?
MichaelLockrey
14:20
Apparently the role was filled 3-4 months ago
MichaelLockrey
14:21
Anyone?
StommePoes
14:21
No idea
StommePoes
14:22
so separate question, I'm following some stuff written for devs and it gives an example: go to chrome/browser dev tool console, select an element and set focus to it... and when I do, because my focus stays IN the console, I don't see the focus as I'm told I should (we wrap the focusable in big red outline)
StommePoes
14:22
I've actually always had trouble with focus and the dev tools, hard to switch between the two.
MichielBijl
14:27
What do you want to achieve?
MichielBijl
14:28
Test focus design?
MichielBijl
14:28
You can force :focus on elements
StommePoes
14:28
nah I mean it's like this
StommePoes
14:29
"type into the console: document.getElementById("some Id I gave it").focus() and now you should see your hand-made fugly focus ring on the webpage"
StommePoes
14:29
yet, I don't, because focus doesn't acutally get moved there
StommePoes
14:29
it stays in the console waiting for me to type more
MichielBijl
14:29
Okay
MichielBijl
14:29
But what is the problem
MichielBijl
14:30
I see it isn't what you want, just don't quite know why
StommePoes
14:30
so I'll see my fugly hand-made focus ring if I tabbed through it, but these instructions are saying I should be abel to call focus() from the devtools and since that's not working I can't tell if I'm the fuckup or if the instructions are wrong
StommePoes
14:30
I'm following someone's instructions.
MichielBijl
14:30
Chrome specific?
StommePoes
14:31
And I think I know who the author is and so then it's someone who I know really knows his shit. And yeah it does mention Chrome (which this machine has real Chrome, not Chromium like on my Linux machine)
StommePoes
14:32
So again I need to at least know, is the problem me or do these instructions fail for others?
StommePoes
14:32
Because usually I have to either mouse-click to get out of devtools or ctrl-L to the addressbar and cycle back in (both of which are a pain)
StommePoes
14:34
Michiel if you go to some page with a focusable with an id attr, and you type in document.getElementById("the id").focus() do you see the element focus in the page?
MichielBijl
14:34
Hmm, same result here on OS X
MichielBijl
14:34
I did document.querySelectorAll('nav a')[0].focus();
MichielBijl
14:35
Funny thing
MichielBijl
14:35
If you close the devotees it does give focus to the element
MichielBijl
14:36
So if you'd close the devtools with ctrl/cmd+w; you're all set :)
MichielBijl
14:37
Safari does the same thing.
MichielBijl
14:37
Firefox too
MichielBijl
14:37
So at least that is consistent.
StommePoes
14:40
hm ok, I had tried that before I thought and I still wasn't there (but that was on DuckDuckGo page, just tried now with my stommepoes page and there, f12 did move the focus indeed
MichielBijl
14:41
Since you retweeted it, what is Sina Bahram on about with aria-help?
like sometimes "hold down [some button] while clicking to activate" kind of stuff
StommePoes
14:59
Honestly, while there's been some decent work in making how-to-aria stuff for devs, I don't know of anything created out there for normal everyday users
MichielBijl
14:59
What do you mean?
StommePoes
14:59
I saw a comment on I think it was Jim Thatcher's blog, by a blink/low-viz someone who was like, "where do I go to figure out how to use stuff that has aria?? the FS pages are the only things I've found and they're out of date"
StommePoes
15:00
Well like so when a tab panel is announced you know which keys you
StommePoes
15:00
're expected to hit
StommePoes
15:00
or how to activate toggles
MichielBijl
15:00
Hmm
StommePoes
15:00
because they use non-web keys and lots of people hear weird new stuff and say they have NO idea what it means
StommePoes
15:00
they don't know what aria is
StommePoes
15:00
they're just our parents trying to use interwebs
StommePoes
15:01
I think the best place to put some of this stuff is in the docs for the AT themselves, since that's one place users think to look.
StommePoes
15:01
but since they are supposed to be mostly the same for all webby things, somewhere else online that could stay updated would also be nice.
StommePoes
15:02
Heck I have trouble keyboarding though some of the new aria stuff
StommePoes
15:02
And I have to go read developer docs to figure out how to use some thing. But I can read those, I'm a dev. Someone's dad shouldn't have to translate developer-ese or read the aria-specs to figure out which keys should do what for him.
deborahgu
15:07
yo my mother was punch carding in the 1960s and VMS adminning in the 80s, StommePoes. ;)
deborahgu
15:07
but point taken and heartily +1'd.
StommePoes
15:30
my mom was a teenager gophering coffe in the 1960's and she died before computers came home but, lawlz, I do usually tend to say "dad" instead of "mom" because it's always the mom who's the example of the non-computer-literate
StommePoes
15:31
Meanwhile, I do have a father-in-law with dev kids who's always asking us "how to I do x?" and I'd say he's more tech-literate than his peers
StommePoes
15:32
Ya so Sina just said to Michiel "Just to add help messages to controls. Think of it as a way of providing an accessibility hint."
StommePoes
15:34
Sorry, I said earlier I found a comment on Jim Thatcher's blog, it was Terril Thompson's
Gitter Channel Archive 27th of October 2015
