Archive index

A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 2nd of December 2015

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. zakim-robot
    Dec 02 01:23
    [jessebeach] Hey all, I'd like to add blavalla@gmail.com
  2. zakim-robot
    Dec 02 01:24
    [jessebeach] But I have no idea how to do this in Slack
  3. zakim-robot
    Dec 02 01:24
    [jessebeach] Can anyone send the link?
  4. garcialo
    03:05
    @jessebeach Here's the link: http://web-a11y.herokuapp.com/
  5. alice
    04:51
    @powrsurg I know, I relish being judiciously "incorrect" when I think style guides are overly conservative :D
  6. MichielBijl
    05:00
    I think they're great but require consistent work.
  7. MichielBijl
    06:04
    Constant*
  8. StommePoes
    11:57
    @michiel will get to that testing, to compliment @mejsullivan's it'll be JAWS 16 and IE11.
  9. StommePoes
    11:57
    and FF... whatevergreen
  10. StommePoes
    11:58
    And next time I find one of those infuriating tab-panels I'll throw it at you so you have an example for any guidelines who need a "how not to do"
  11. StommePoes
    11:58
    tho if schema.org has fixed theirs, theirs would be a good example. Lemme see
  12. StommePoes
    11:59
    hm nope, they still have the old inaccessible 'tabs'
  13. MichielBijl
    11:59
    Thank you :D
  14. StommePoes
    12:00
    no thanking, I may steal this later for some internal guidelines for icons font thingies
  15. MichielBijl
    12:00
    Haha, no problem
  16. StommePoes
    12:00
    man I hate those, since my FF never shows funky special fonts, I always have to turn that crap on and then back off for example zoom text
  17. MichielBijl
    12:00
    It gives a warm fuzzy feeling that people want to help with this =)
  18. StommePoes
    12:00
    plus now we get the mobiles who can turn off sh*tty webfonts
  19. MichielBijl
    12:01
    Yep
  20. StommePoes
    12:01
    warm and fuzzy, yet will be used by, like, corporations man
  21. StommePoes
    12:01
    (that needs <hippyVoice> wrapped around it)
  22. MichielBijl
    12:01
    I'm working on a Font Awesome Icon Font Scalable Vector Graphics Replacement Automation JavaScript thing.
  23. MichielBijl
    12:01
    Might need a better name for it…
  24. StommePoes
    12:02
    needs to spell out a word, of course
  25. MichielBijl
    12:02
    Yes
  26. StommePoes
    12:02
    FAIFS VGRAJS just duzzn work
  27. MichielBijl
    12:02
    You try making an acronym with SVG in it :P
  28. StommePoes
    12:02
    use the S only
  29. StommePoes
    12:02
    Svg
  30. StommePoes
    12:03
    FaIF SRAJ...
  31. MichielBijl
    12:03
    I'll work on it
  32. StommePoes
    12:04
    oh hey
  33. StommePoes
    12:04
    for IE
  34. StommePoes
    12:04
    can you throw a tabindex=-1 thingie on your examples so the URL can go straight to the example?
  35. StommePoes
    12:05
    whoa hey did Chaals test some of these?
  36. StommePoes
    12:05
    I didn't know he had a braille display
  37. MichielBijl
    12:05
    Uhm, can do.
  38. MichielBijl
    12:05
    Yep
  39. MichielBijl
    12:05
    But that is the virtual display :)
  40. MichielBijl
    12:05
    Comes with every Mac.
  41. StommePoes
    12:05
    oh
  42. StommePoes
    12:05
    MS needs to up their game
  43. StommePoes
    12:06
    ok so one problem I have with IE is it forgets tabs when I close it, if it starts getting problems (usually when I have more than 5 tabs open)
  44. StommePoes
    12:06
    it'll offer to restore, but restore won't work
  45. StommePoes
    12:06
    bleh
  46. MichielBijl
    12:06
    But you mean tabindex=-1 on example 4?
  47. StommePoes
    12:06
    yeah on where the #test-4 id is
  48. StommePoes
    12:06
    in IE, the page opens at the top
  49. StommePoes
    12:07
    it's a known combo of bugz
  50. MichielBijl
    12:07
    weird, will add, hang on
  51. MichielBijl
    12:08
    It's live!!!
  52. MichielBijl
    12:08
    The tab index thing that is
  53. StommePoes
    12:09
    w00ts
  54. StommePoes
    12:09
    works
  55. StommePoes
    12:09
    I don't think edge will have this
  56. StommePoes
    12:09
    so hopefully it'll die with IE
  57. MichielBijl
    12:09
    I'm not really building this for old browsers.
  58. MichielBijl
    12:09
    CSS uses :not() for example
  59. StommePoes
    12:09
    dammit, have to manually re open my tabs. Damn you IE
  60. StommePoes
    12:10
    IE11 does :not, I thought
  61. MichielBijl
    12:10
    Yep
  62. MichielBijl
    12:10
    IE8 doesn't
  63. StommePoes
    12:10
    yeah IE still has the weird skip link bug
  64. StommePoes
    12:10
    even 11
  65. StommePoes
    12:11
    lawlz
  66. StommePoes
    12:11
    I didn't know JAWS read out cite URLs
  67. MichielBijl
    12:11
    VoiceOver doesn't
  68. StommePoes
    12:11
    aw, I don't hear love
  69. StommePoes
    12:11
    I hear an emptiness
  70. MichielBijl
    12:12
    :(
  71. StommePoes
    12:12
    similar to what I heard when testing Chaals' accesskey stuff, every place he had a font glyph the SR didn't know, it was empty
  72. MichielBijl
    12:12
    But but but
  73. StommePoes
    12:12
    whereas NVDA would say "chinese letter" for a chinese letter
  74. StommePoes
    12:12
    and Jaws would just " "
  75. MichielBijl
    12:12
    Doesn't JAWS support role="img"?
  76. StommePoes
    12:12
    it also acts like it's2 lines
  77. StommePoes
    12:13
    So down arrow: Every cool web project is made with
  78. StommePoes
    12:13
    next down arrow: these days right parne and so is this one left paren
  79. StommePoes
    12:13
    maybe not
  80. StommePoes
    12:13
    or maybe it doesn't support aria-label on that role
  81. MichielBijl
    12:13
    Hmm
  82. MichielBijl
    12:13
    Crap
  83. StommePoes
    12:13
    for craps and giggles you could put some other random role on there and see if it's THE role or not
  84. MichielBijl
    12:13
    Can you do PR? Or should I just edit it live.
  85. StommePoes
    12:14
    lemme test FF
  86. MichielBijl
    12:14
    Can give you edit rights or w/e
  87. StommePoes
    12:14
    and when I just go letter by letter
  88. StommePoes
    12:14
    it's a lot of space space space space
  89. StommePoes
    12:14
    two spaces
  90. StommePoes
    12:15
    with a space on each side as we see
  91. StommePoes
    12:15
    so 4 spaces
  92. StommePoes
    12:15
    Um, you could give me edit rights
  93. MichielBijl
    12:15
    :/
  94. StommePoes
    12:15
    StommePoes on github
  95. MichielBijl
    12:15
    You haz
  96. MichielBijl
    12:16
    But for testing, please clone :P
  97. MichielBijl
    12:16
    For the SVG fallback stuff there is a separate branch.
  98. MichielBijl
    12:17
    But there are no support tables and stuff, so no point testing that at this point.
  99. StommePoes
    12:17
    um, I normally fork a whole repo, and if there's a master branch I edit that, is there a diff branch you'd rather?
  100. MichielBijl
    12:17
    No, that is fine :)
  101. StommePoes
    12:17
    chaals' accesskey stuff had his master called something else but whatever, tell me which branch you want
  102. StommePoes
    12:17
    ok
  103. StommePoes
    12:18
    aha
  104. StommePoes
    12:18
    "graphic love"
  105. StommePoes
    12:18
    in FF
    with JAWS
  106. StommePoes
    12:18
    w00ts
  107. StommePoes
    12:18
    the problem is IE, not JAWS
  108. MichielBijl
    12:18
    Nice
  109. StommePoes
    12:18
    it still treats it like newlines
  110. MichielBijl
    12:18
    Good to have in the tables!
  111. StommePoes
    12:18
    but that might just be the thingie
  112. StommePoes
    12:18
    would be nicer if it was treated as a single line of text tho
  113. StommePoes
    12:18
    oh well
  114. MichielBijl
    12:19
    VoiceOver does too if no role img
  115. MichielBijl
    12:19
    I agree, might have to fiddle with it some more.
  116. MichielBijl
    12:19
    But that could be a test #5
  117. StommePoes
    12:19
    i is inline elemnet, shouldn't be an issue
  118. MichielBijl
    12:19
    could use span or something.
  119. MichielBijl
    12:20
    Shouldn't make a difference though
  120. StommePoes
    12:20
    NVDA in IE does not read out the cite URL
  121. StommePoes
    12:20
    le sigh
  122. StommePoes
    12:20
    NVDA IE "graphic love" and all one line, yay
  123. StommePoes
    12:20
    no, don't mess with it
  124. MichielBijl
    12:20
    Maybe is because Font Awesome uses ::before
  125. StommePoes
    12:20
    they're being inconsistant, shouldn't hav to hack for it
  126. StommePoes
    12:21
    FF + NVDA is the same
  127. StommePoes
    12:21
    w00ts
  128. StommePoes
    12:22
    I might as well do orca
  129. MichielBijl
    12:22
    Haha
  130. StommePoes
    12:23
    "love image" in FF/Orca
  131. StommePoes
    12:23
    1 line
  132. MichielBijl
    12:23
    le awesome
  133. StommePoes
    13:04
    @michielBijl do you have a class or osmething for fail colours?
  134. StommePoes
    13:04
    everything's some kind of green
  135. MichielBijl
    13:08
    I do not
  136. MichielBijl
    13:08
    I can add a todo to research it
  137. StommePoes
    13:11
    like chaals did in his accesskey
  138. MichielBijl
    13:11
    MichielBijl/font-awesome#15
  139. MichielBijl
    13:12
    Can haz link?
  140. StommePoes
    13:13
    chaals.github.io/accesskey/tests/
  141. StommePoes
    13:13
    per test
  142. StommePoes
    13:16
    MichielBijl/font-awesome#16
  143. StommePoes
    13:16
    I only did the test 4, when I get more time I could do the others
  144. StommePoes
    13:16
    but not now
  145. StommePoes
    13:23
    I twotted more on tab-panel trying to rope in Eric and Deborah as I have no idea what the standard Dragon way of scrolling a page down a bit is.
  146. garcialo
    13:42
    Does font-awesome require using <i>?
  147. StommePoes
    14:03
    not that /i know of
  148. StommePoes
    14:03
    it's just a convenient meaningless sandbag
  149. StommePoes
    14:07
    the css might expect an i, I haven't looked.
  150. garcialo
    14:08
    Except i isn't meaningless =p
  151. StommePoes
    14:22
    it used to mean typograpic standards, HTML5 wrote down a new meaning but no idea if there's a user anywhere who can access this supposed "meaning"
  152. StommePoes
    14:22
    del has a meaning, but pretty much only to developers who can see the code.
  153. StommePoes
    14:23
    tho jamie said recently something about adding it in
  154. StommePoes
    14:23
    to NVDA
  155. garcialo
    14:24
    if the tag doesn't matter, then why not just make something that doesn't collide with something that already exists?
  156. garcialo
    14:24
    like <fa>
  157. StommePoes
    14:24
    I'm not sure, I figured they used i the way we devs use sandbags
  158. StommePoes
    14:25
    b and i are popular
  159. StommePoes
    14:25
    because they are 1 letter
  160. StommePoes
    14:25
    and unlike <fa> don't need to be added w JS for IE
  161. StommePoes
    14:25
    spans are only avoided because they're 4 letters : P
  162. garcialo
    14:26
    that's just silliness =p
  163. garcialo
    14:26
    span is the most appropriate element to use here =p
  164. StommePoes
    14:26
    I've used (empty) b's and i's a lot, tho font-awesome adds css pseudo elements
  165. StommePoes
    14:27
    <b></b> to hold an image should be fine. However you can argue against b/i when we're adding glyphs/content, yeah.
  166. StommePoes
    14:47
    If these are pure auto-craptions, I'm impressed. But they look like they've had some fixes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-2e093A_LY
  167. garcialo
    14:48
    Yeah, lately on videos I don't expect to be captioned, I've seen either really crappy manual captions or pretty good and sometimes crappy auto captions.
  168. MichielBijl
    15:04
    @StommePoes thank you so much! I'll review/read twots later
  169. MichielBijl
    15:04
    le busy
  170. MichielBijl
    15:08
    @garcialo I use span's in the examples.
  171. garcialo
    15:09
    @MichielBijl <3
  172. MichielBijl
    15:09
    :+1:
  173. MichielBijl
    15:09
    Would've used images if you could add ::before :P
  174. MichielBijl
    15:10
    Would be real easy to say “hey, you already use the img tag, why not use a real image you bastard!
  175. powrsurg
    15:15
    I'm about to experiment on using the Web Speech API with getUserMedia to generate automatic transcripts for the captured audio. I'm not expecting good results based on what I've seen so far, but I'm hopeful it'll get better as browser support improves
  176. garcialo
    15:31
    @powrsurg Have you seen Describler? http://describler.com/#intro
  177. garcialo
    15:32
    It uses the Web Speech API; code is available on Github
  178. powrsurg
    15:34
    That's text to speech, I'm looking for speech to text
  179. powrsurg
    15:34
    Web Speech API goes both ways
  180. garcialo
    15:35
    @powrsurg Ooooh, I see.
  181. garcialo
    15:35
    I just misunderstood. =)
  182. garcialo
    15:35
    @powrsurg That sounds awesome then. Make sure you post stuff about it in here. Would love to see it.
  183. powrsurg
    15:36
    Yeah, we want a person to speech in the mic and to upload the recorded conversation so others can here. For accessibility we give them a textarea where they can type up a transcript. I want to see if we can get it to automatically fill in the textarea if the browser supports it
  184. powrsurg
    15:37
    Right now Chrome is the only browser that supports anything like it. Firefox is going to have text to speech coming in 44, but not speech to text
  185. powrsurg
    15:38
    And Edge just has it as "Under Consideration" on the status page
  186. StommePoes
    15:42
    The one good thing with auto-craptions is it's often easier to fix craptions than write completely new captions
  187. pkra
    15:42
    Hi, this is my first time posting after lurking for a while. Thanks for all the interesting discussions to learn from.
  188. pkra
    15:43
    I was wondering if anyone knows Dolphin's Screenreader well, in particular how to get out of its cursor mode or how to pass keystrokes directly to a web app. I'm currently testing it on Win10 and IE11.
  189. garcialo
    15:44
    I've never heard of Dolphin.
  190. StommePoes
    15:46
    british sr
  191. powrsurg
    15:46
    @StommePoes yeah, I had trouble even using the demo http://mdn.github.io/web-speech-api/speech-color-changer/ . Only color it seemed to get correct 100% of the time was "orange"
  192. powrsurg
    15:46
    Dolphin is a mobile web browser on Android and iOS (and maybe Windows Phone)
  193. garcialo
    15:46
    Ah, I see.
  194. pkra
    15:46
    @garcialo me too until recently. As @StommePoes said, UK related.
  195. pkra
    15:47
    http://www.yourdolphin.com/
  196. pkra
    15:48
    or http://www.yourdolphin.com/product?id=3 to be precise.
  197. garcialo
    15:48
    Yeah, perused through the videos for it, didn't hear what it actually sounded like. =p
  198. StommePoes
    15:49
    My former company has a client who had an employee who used Supernova
  199. StommePoes
    15:50
    as it's called here
  200. StommePoes
    15:50
    I suspect it's more popular in the Netherlands than I would otherwise know about.
  201. StommePoes
    15:50
    1690 euros
  202. StommePoes
    15:50
    sheesh
  203. StommePoes
    15:51
    well, still cheaper than the JAWS I bought for 3645 euros
  204. pkra
    15:51
    Yes, quite a sum...
  205. StommePoes
    15:52
    Other than that one guy, I know of nobody who uses Supernova/Dolphin. Sorry.
  206. StommePoes
    15:52
    And I only know about him because the client for our software was written in GtK so that poor guy had to switch to Linux to use Orca
  207. StommePoes
    15:52
    neither system known to him
  208. garcialo
    15:53
    yum
  209. StommePoes
    15:53
    probably turned a productive employee into a useless one.
  210. pkra
    15:53
    @StommePoes Thanks though.
  211. StommePoes
    15:54
    Betcha there are forums though
  212. StommePoes
    15:54
    I would look for a user forum because the users are likely to know how they get in/out of forms mode etc.
  213. pkra
    15:56
    @StommePoes thanks, will dig one up (but first stop will be to nag the person who suggested we support it ;-) )
  214. StommePoes
    15:56
    Well, thing is, if you're in Germany or Benelux you might have a bunch of users (you just don't know about them).
  215. garcialo
    15:56
    Found this hotkey reference guide https://www.rnib.org.uk/sites/default/files/supernova_v13_qrg_web.pdf
  216. StommePoes
    15:56
    The use numbers for JAWS that are valid for the US for example I know they don't match here so well. JAWS is big but it's not that 50% big.
  217. zakim-robot
    15:57
    [gregtarnoff] Any a11y reason to use a form if you user role=‘form’ and duplicate the enter key submission functionality?
  218. StommePoes
    15:57
    you probably would now need to do a bunch of SR tests that you could have avoided with a real form I suppose.
  219. StommePoes
    15:58
    But if you've got some weird ajaxy thing I suppose it would need a bunch of testing anyways. : )
  220. zakim-robot
    15:58
    [gregtarnoff] Yeah.
  221. StommePoes
    15:58
    I've lately run into the issue of whether keystrokes are passed through to the browser or not based on whether the SR has heuristically detected that it should switch to that mode or not
  222. pkra
    15:58
    @garcialo oh, awesome! (how?where?) Will check it out.
  223. garcialo
    15:59
    I'm pretty much the worldwide expert on the Dolphin screen reader.
  224. garcialo
    15:59
    also, Google
  225. StommePoes
    15:59
    haha
  226. powrsurg
    16:00
    OMG THIS WORKS
  227. garcialo
    16:00
    @powrsurg !!!
  228. powrsurg
    16:00
    ... and breaks getUserMedia on Chrome on Android ...
  229. powrsurg
    16:01
    two things accessing the mic at once on Android causes ... issues ...
  230. pkra
    16:04
    @garcialo hah. I think I just failed my google 101. Anyhow, that PDF put me on the right path. The shortcut doesn't help me (numpad+something on a laptop) but led me to explore a part of their configuration. Turns out they have a "window eyes emulation mode" so in that mode I could deactivate it with ctrl+shift+a.
  231. garcialo
    16:05
    cool, yeah in other SRs it's usually Ins+Space
  232. pkra
    16:05
    Unfortunately, it looks like they don't support live regions.
  233. garcialo
    16:05
    ARIA is hard
  234. pkra
    16:05
    @garcialo right.
  235. pkra
    16:05
    and right.
  236. pkra
    16:05
    JAWS has INS+z as default for its virtual cursor.
  237. pkra
    16:06
    thanks again, @garcialo @StommePoes
  238. MichielBijl
    16:30
    @garcialo try understanding it enough to be able to contribute…
  239. MichielBijl
    16:31
    This message was deleted
  240. MichielBijl @MichielBijl 's brain hurts
  241. StommePoes
    16:31
    DOCTOR!! I NEED A BRAAAAAIN SPECIALIST!
  242. MichielBijl
    16:31
    Gitter is hard.
  243. StommePoes
    16:34
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyFfmGf3b2Y
  244. MichielBijl @MichielBijl smashes bureau
  245. MichielBijl
    16:38
    One day I'll interview someone like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zP0sqRMzkwo
  246. MichielBijl
    16:40
    But people will probably walk out…
  247. dylanb
    17:19
    @StommePoes I always recommend FF + NVDA for keyboard
  248. StommePoes
    17:47
    I don't get to choose what students use tho
  249. StommePoes
    17:47
    And I'm also pretty big on choice: without choice of AT, browser, or OS, there's no real choice.
  250. StommePoes
    17:48
    That's why Orca, as small a userbase as it has, is so important.
  251. powrsurg
    19:15
    Just saw the Molly Holzchlag news :(
  252. MichielBijl
    22:06
    @powrsurg what happened?
  253. MichielBijl
    22:07
    This message was deleted
  254. powrsurg
    22:19
    She's selling molly.com for $300k, and the @mollydotcom twitter account is being closed. Looks like she's getting out of the biz
  255. powrsurg
    22:19
    Keeping her Facebook page up
  256. zakim-robot
    22:55
    [fstorr] Very sad news about Molly.
  257. zakim-robot
    22:57
    [jessebeach] Does anyone have the invite URL to this slack?
  258. zakim-robot
    22:57
    [jessebeach] I can never find it
  259. zakim-robot
    22:57
    [fstorr] Anyone seen this behaviour before at all: bypassing the header and navigation pages on a site by setting focus on the <h1> element when the page loads. It appears to meet WCAG 2.4.1 but it doesn’t feel like a sensible idea or a great user experience.
  260. garcialo
    22:58
    @jessebeach I linked it earlier.
  261. zakim-robot
    22:58
    [jessebeach] Seems presumptuous
  262. zakim-robot
    22:58
    [jessebeach] The H1 is usually one key combo away from the page load
  263. zakim-robot
    23:01
    [cordelia] @fstorr, do they do that to get around having a skip nav link?
  264. zakim-robot
    23:03
    [fstorr] @cordelia: yep
  265. zakim-robot
    23:09
    [jessebeach] Soon we will be able to use flexbox and these issues of page region order will abate. Soon. http://caniuse.com/#feat=flexbox
  266. zakim-robot
    23:09
    [jessebeach] By 2017? I think so
  267. zakim-robot
    23:10
    [fstorr] Link to the page for invites to this slack: http://web-a11y.herokuapp.com/
  268. zakim-robot
    23:11
    [fstorr] Which I have now pinned to the @general channel
  269. zakim-robot
    23:16
    [cordelia] ^ Great idea pinning the link! I always forget it, too.
  270. jnurthen
    23:19
    or just use gitter instead!
  271. jnurthen
    23:19
    https://gitter.im/w3c/a11ySlackers
  272. zakim-robot
    23:28
    [marcysutton] The link is in the “channel purpose”, but I don’t know where that is surfaced...
  273. zakim-robot
    23:29
    [fstorr] There’s a note with the gitter URL in the pinned items on this channel