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A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 7th of December 2015

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. zakim-robot
    Dec 07 00:00
    [callumacrae] damn, I got that right everywhere but the first paragraph!
  2. garcialo
    Dec 07 00:00
    "we as people who work in tech" might also include PWDs
  3. garcialo
    Dec 07 00:01
    well, not might...it does include PWDs
  4. zakim-robot
    Dec 07 00:01
    [callumacrae] good point, will rephrase
  5. garcialo
    Dec 07 00:03
    Maybe not phrase making a site accessible as being an "accommodation." If there was a button that could only be submitted via mind control, would you consider it an accommodation to make it so it can be activated with a mouse?
  6. garcialo
    Dec 07 00:04
    ...I'll switch this to PM so I'm not so spammy =p sorrya ll
  7. garcialo
    Dec 07 00:04
    sorry all*
  8. zakim-robot
    Dec 07 00:04
    [callumacrae] No, but I would consider it an accommodation to translate a language into other languages
  9. zakim-robot
    Dec 07 00:04
    [callumacrae] sure, I'll log onto gitter
  10. garcialo
    Dec 07 00:04
    I'm on slack too
  11. zakim-robot
    Dec 07 00:05
    [callumacrae] ah, that would be better tbh, no idea where the gitter room actually is
  12. garcialo
    Dec 07 00:35
    Someone should also sticky the Gitter URL https://gitter.im/w3c/a11ySlackers
  13. powrsurg
    02:29
    I checked WebAIM and didn't see it asked in any survey. Does anyone know how many dyslexic users override the page's fonts with something easier for them to read?
  14. garcialo
    02:30
    I don't think those numbers are known.
  15. garcialo
    02:30
    I wouldn't expect it to be a high number of them.
  16. garcialo
    02:31
    I would think maybe just those with really bad dyslexia
  17. powrsurg
    02:32
    yeah, and I'm curious if they override the font with something like OpenDyslexic vs using the browser extensions (which do more than just replace the font)
  18. garcialo
    02:32
    oh
  19. garcialo
    02:33
    well, I went to a CSUN talk last year; and it seemed like the fonts weren't as useful as they self reported to be
  20. garcialo
    02:33
    also, there's this http://dyslexiahelp.umich.edu/sites/default/files/good_fonts_for_dyslexia_study.pdf
  21. powrsurg
    02:33
    yeah, I don't feel like most people even would do that, or know they could, but it'd be nice to know. I thought maybe someone here might know
  22. powrsurg
    02:42
    so basically that study found: stick with the typical fonts that have been okay to use for sites for decades
  23. garcialo
    02:56
    yup
  24. zakim-robot
    06:56

    [sareh] @powrsurg I read this great short post a couple weeks ago about fonts used by those with dyslexia https://twitter.com/NeilMilliken/status/663310129283121152

    Neil is really active on Twitter & would most likely know more about this. He co-runs #AXSchat which is a weekly online discussion about accessibility, which often talks about tech a11y, too. http://www.axschat.com/

  25. MichielBijl
    08:09
    I miss AXSchat :(
  26. MichielBijl
    08:58
    Some people don't want to get it or something: https://github.com/wekan/wekan/pull/408#issuecomment-162451043
  27. zakim-robot
    11:28
    [jitendra] How does screen reader work with Emojis?
  28. zakim-robot
    11:29
    [jitendra] does it work fine?
  29. MichielBijl
    11:50
    From what I've read it differs from platform to platform.
  30. zakim-robot
    11:52
    [jitendra] ok
  31. zakim-robot
    12:03
    [karlgroves] @michielBijl: You can give them this
    http://www.karlgroves.com/2013/05/14/links-are-not-buttons-neither-are-divs-and-spans/
  32. zakim-robot
    12:04
    [callumacrae] @jitendra: On OS X using VoiceOver, it describes the emoji, which is a bit weird
  33. zakim-robot
    12:04
    [callumacrae] It doesn't say that it is an emoji
  34. zakim-robot
    12:05
    [callumacrae] You just get "hello stuck out tongue closed eyes face how are you" for "hello :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes: how are you"
  35. zakim-robot
    12:05
    [karlgroves] @callumacrae: that’s the alt they’ve provided for the emoji
  36. zakim-robot
    12:06
    [jitendra] :simple_smile:
  37. MichielBijl
    12:10
    @karlgroves, thanks, I'll throw a bunch of links at them, but am thus far not under the impression that hey actually read the comments, let alone stuff you link to.
  38. MichielBijl
    12:17
    Might want to send them to your Paris Web talk too.
  39. zakim-robot
    12:20
    [callumacrae] hmm, might submit an accessibility talk proposal to http://enhanceconf.com/
  40. zakim-robot
    12:20
    [callumacrae] Apparently they want accessibility talks! Not sure how related that is to progressive enhancement…
  41. MichielBijl
    12:22
    Very.
  42. MichielBijl
    12:23
    If all those fancy one-page-pages where PE, they'd work without JS.
  43. zakim-robot
    12:24
    [callumacrae] but that's not accessibility. single page webapps can be accessible without being progressively enhanced to work without JS (also: that's graceful degradation), it's just trickier
  44. MichielBijl
    12:24
    GD is just PE in reverse.
  45. MichielBijl
    12:25
    I always describe it as: “With progressive enhancement you take care of basic functionality first and then add bloaty stuff for browsers that support it. With graceful degradation you fool yourself by promising you’ll add support for all your fancy shit to older browsers.”
  46. MichielBijl
    12:25
    From: http://www.michielbijl.nl/2015/11/10/front-end-job-interview-questions/
  47. zakim-robot
    12:26
    [callumacrae] woah, someone is jaded :smile:
  48. MichielBijl
    12:27
    Haha
  49. MichielBijl
    12:29
    The rest of that article isn't much better I believe :P
  50. MarcoZehe
    12:29
    In case you're interested or need to know about an IRC client for the web: I looked at and report on the accessibility of IRCCloud for the web, and their iOS app: https://www.marcozehe.de/2015/12/07/looking-at-the-accessibility-of-the-irccloud-service/
  51. MichielBijl
    14:12
    @karlgroves that (s)tramp in your Paris talk is actually really bad. Not sure if You've read an article on that.
  52. powrsurg
    14:12
    @sareh I'll check it out. Thanks
  53. MichielBijl
    14:12
    Passed here a while ago.
  54. zakim-robot
    14:13
    [karlgroves] @MichielBihl yeah, I know. :disappointed: I think the idea is cool, but since hearing about how bad they actually are, I’m sure to mention it.
  55. MichielBijl
    14:14
    :+1:
  56. MichielBijl
    15:18
    @karlgroves, do you mind if I use your intended title for an internal presentation? “What is this thing, and what does it do?”
  57. MichielBijl
    15:18
    First thing next year I want to teach our developers about basic HTML and how to write it.
  58. MichielBijl
    15:18
    Or rather, why to write it.
  59. zakim-robot
    15:19
    [karlgroves] Go for it. Would appreciate a link back, if possible
  60. MichielBijl
    15:21
    Sure :)
  61. StommePoes
    15:28
    It sounds like a basic, usable mantra while building webby things. What is this thing, and what does it do?
  62. StommePoes
    15:28
    (and how the hell do I use it)
  63. StommePoes
    15:29
    that last bit becomes more and more a problem as we build widgets that, while maybe described in some developerese aria page for devs, does nothing to let your kids' teacher know how he's supposed to actually operate the thing.
  64. StommePoes
    15:29
    I see people try finding it in places like JAWS ref pages
  65. StommePoes
    15:29
    <zombies>and it's not theeeeeeere....</zombies>
  66. MichielBijl
    15:31
    APG is closest thing to that.
  67. MichielBijl
    15:31
    But even that is too developer-y for what you have in mind.
  68. StommePoes
    15:35
    Would you send Joe who wants to navigate and use a website to that? Hell no
  69. StommePoes
    15:35
    well, unless he was an evil father in law you hated
  70. StommePoes
    15:36
    curse that man... I know, I'll send him over to aria-practices page.
  71. StommePoes
    15:36
    It needs to be like the JAWS how-tos
  72. StommePoes
    15:37
    Big evil company and all, but they (I think smartly) assume or know a lot of their users are the two-index-finger-typing types.
  73. StommePoes
    15:37
    I was offered all sorts of assistence when I purchased... in case I wasn't sure how to install software. And the instructions went as far down as "click this key, then tab 2 times to "blah" text, then hit enter"
  74. StommePoes
    15:38
    Awesome.
  75. MichielBijl
    15:38
    Agreed
  76. StommePoes
    15:39
    I'm currently SRing into some Flash and I have no idea how to navigate what they built (maybe that's not really possible but more likely it's me being my cognitively-deficient usual self), and because it's Flash I don't have my usual dev trick of viewing source
  77. MichielBijl
    15:39
    insert something less formal
  78. StommePoes
    15:39
    bwahaha, instant-oma, just add flash
  79. StommePoes
    15:42
    I wonder if I should comment http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/#h-sotd or if there's a better place for things like "figure out how to let people scroll with tab panels"
  80. StommePoes
    15:42
    ?
  81. MichielBijl
    15:43
    Use github issues?
  82. MarcoZehe
    15:43
    @StommePoes: LOL! "oma" is a German word for grandma or granny. Your "instant-oma" translates into something very funny. ;-)
  83. StommePoes
    15:43
    exactly what it means in Dutch too
  84. garcialo
    15:44
    @MarcoZehe Now I want cookies.
  85. StommePoes
    15:44
    sometimes I throw in Dutch and don't care if everyone groks it
  86. garcialo
    15:44
    I wish I had an instant oma
  87. StommePoes
    15:44
    insta-oma's don't bake no cookies
  88. MichielBijl
    15:44
    @StommePoes complain away: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues
  89. StommePoes
    15:44
    she just asks you to fix her computer, she hears you do something with computers
  90. garcialo
    15:44
    My grandmothers didn't get into computers. Probably for the best. =p
  91. MichielBijl
    15:45

    insta-oma's don't bake no cookies

    She buys cheap cookies at cheap stores with fake ingredients.

  92. MarcoZehe
    15:45
    My grandmother didn't, either. My parents did, or rather, my mom got into using an iPad. No support incidents. My father's got an iMac, also hardly any support incidents. And if he has trouble with his iPhone, my mom helps him.
  93. StommePoes
    15:46
    My schoon-parents get tech assistence from the kids, who all "do stuff with computers":
  94. StommePoes
    15:46
    so pa-in-law ipads and recently got some apple tv, and both can email/tweet/WhatsApp etc
  95. StommePoes
    15:47
    zomg @michiel does anyone read all those??
  96. StommePoes
    15:47
    @MichielBijl they're also haram cause it turns out those cookies use pig hairs to make them soft and chewy (true story actually for bread)
  97. StommePoes
    15:48
    Toothpaste is haram too. Turns out we put pigs in everything. Bleh.
  98. StommePoes
    15:48
    Huh, turns out the Zombies did a version of Summertime.
  99. MichielBijl
    15:48
    @StommePoes well, I hope I'm not the only one :P
  100. garcialo
    15:48
    To be fair, pigs provide us with all the best tasting meats.
  101. StommePoes
    15:48
    You might be
  102. StommePoes
    15:49
    I never cared for pig meat, tho if it's cooked to hell I can eat it.
  103. MichielBijl
    15:49

    To be fair, pigs provide us with all the best tasting meats.

    FALSE! Parma ham is definitely the best thing.

  104. StommePoes
    15:49
    Cows and chickens are tastier for me, esp old-fashioned chicken types (store "plof-kip" are kinda tasteless, that translates to "exploding chicken")
  105. StommePoes
    15:49
    parma ham isn't ham?
  106. MarcoZehe @MarcoZehe enjoys all kinds of meat. Except fish. But some would claim that's not meat anyway.
  107. StommePoes
    15:50
    fishy meat
  108. StommePoes
    15:50
    what are bugs?
  109. StommePoes
    15:50
    meat or not meat?
  110. StommePoes
    15:50
    They're starting to put mealworms in bitterballen and those little snacks you fry and then have no idea what kind of meat it originally was, or could have been fake meat anyway.
  111. garcialo
    15:50
    @MarcoZehe I'm in the "not meat" group; was raised Catholic (I got better).
  112. MichielBijl
    15:51
    I don't know the first thing about meat. Just that Parma ham or (Prosciutto di Parma) is really tasty.
  113. garcialo
    15:51
    I would expect Parma ham is pig
  114. MichielBijl
    15:51
    DAMN you: Prosciutto is made from either a pig's or a wild boar's ham (hind leg or thigh)
  115. StommePoes
    15:51
    I would too, though who knows: star fish isn't fish. Language lies...
  116. MichielBijl @MichielBijl votes boar
  117. StommePoes
    15:52
    boar's a pig in my book
  118. garcialo
    15:52
    +1
  119. StommePoes
    15:52
    a little meaner and hairier, but a pig. Pig used to mean only a year old or something anyways.
  120. StommePoes
    15:52
    instead of all pigs
  121. garcialo
    15:52
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tsdmqhn50uM
  122. StommePoes @StommePoes waits for spiderpig
  123. StommePoes
    15:53
    hehe
  124. MichielBijl
    15:54
    If people joined this channel at certain times of the day, they would have no clue we poses a lot of a11y information…
  125. StommePoes
    15:54
    @MichielBijl do they like +1s on issues or is that noise?
  126. StommePoes
    15:54
    Detlev's "menus are not navigation" needs a +1
  127. MichielBijl
    15:54
    Yeah that is fine.
  128. garcialo
    15:55
    I hate those with a passion. If they were a meat, they would definitely not come from pigs.
  129. MichielBijl
    15:55
    +1's?
  130. garcialo
    15:55
    menus used for navigation
  131. MichielBijl
    15:55
    Ah
  132. MichielBijl
    15:55
    Yes
  133. StommePoes
    15:56
    Well, I've run into a big megamenu on a site I was a11y-testing and it was all role=menu, role=menuitem and neither I with zoomtext nor the SR tester could figure out wtf was what
  134. StommePoes
    15:57
    but, the text for that section did NOT make it clear that those are application navigationy things.
  135. StommePoes
    15:57
    And these devs had actually copied (mis-copied) a menu I'd seen earlier, possibly by Adobe, with those roles
  136. StommePoes
    15:57
    which later was removed
  137. StommePoes
    15:57
    so +1 to Detlev's issue
  138. deborahgu
    16:07
    so do able bodied people like megamenus? Because I can't stand them, but I've seen articles praising good ones.
  139. MichielBijl
    16:07
    Hate them.
  140. MichielBijl
    16:07
    Build a decent search thing.
  141. deborahgu
    16:08
    a decent search thing + a site map = so much more usable
  142. StommePoes
    16:08
    okays I wrote a thing w3c/aria#113
  143. StommePoes
    16:09
    Mega menus suck with magnification. Always. Arg
  144. garcialo
    16:09
    I don't mind if they're not multiple levels; like if they act like a very simple File, Edit, View, etc. menu it's fine
  145. StommePoes
    16:09
    They suck with mice unintentionally setting them off all the time, even with "intents"
  146. garcialo
    16:09
    it's when they start expanding beyond that when I get annoyed
  147. StommePoes
    16:09
    If they're simple like file, edit, view, that's not mega. Mega's are like whole little pages in a hover
  148. StommePoes
    16:10
    Often there are headings inside, with lists, paragraphs and images too
  149. garcialo
    16:10
    ah, gotcha. then yes; hates them I do
  150. StommePoes
    16:10
    food network had one that was praised (long ago, didn't work with keyboard I don't think)
  151. StommePoes
    16:10
    but design-wise
  152. deborahgu
    16:10
    garcialo: nod, and yeah on multilevel even in non mega; vertical menus with horizontal pop-out sub menus are not how either hands or brains work in humans.
  153. StommePoes
    16:11
    veeeeerry carefully hover the subsubsubmenu out of its shell, like spinning silk
  154. MichielBijl
    16:21
    It's like that game where you're not allowed to touch the sides.
  155. StommePoes
    16:23
    You mean Electric Cage?
  156. StommePoes
    16:23
    I hate that game
  157. StommePoes
    16:23
    wait
  158. MichielBijl
    16:23
    With the spiral thing and the handle thing that you have to move along the spiral thing.
  159. StommePoes
    16:24
    I don't think I know it. Electric Cage is when they put you in a cage and you get electrocuted if you touch any of it.
  160. StommePoes
    16:25
    Those kinds of menus would be good candidates for the setup typical of touch screens: one tap to "activate" (but do nothing), two taps to actually use it.
  161. MichielBijl
    16:26
    http://i66.servimg.com/u/f66/15/86/85/00/boxdon10.jpg
  162. MichielBijl
    16:28
    alt = game where you have to move a metal loop over a metal track (the track is inside the loop) without touching the track.
  163. MichielBijl
    16:28
    Or something…
  164. StommePoes
    16:45
    oh
  165. StommePoes
    16:46
    yup, successfully navigating many dropdowns is indeed a challenge of your hand-eye coordination, unnecessarily