Archive index

A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 8th of January 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. zakim-robot
    10:58
    [callumacrae] hey! does anyone know much about braille?
  2. zakim-robot
    10:59
    [callumacrae] I work for a childrens book company and we want to make a braille version of our book. do we need to hire a braille translator, or is it just a case of switching the letters for their braille equivalents?
  3. zakim-robot
    10:59
    [callumacrae] (not really the best place to ask, but I don't know where else to ask!)
  4. MichielBijl
    11:43
    Hiring a translator couldn't hurt. But I don't know anything about Braille
  5. zakim-robot
    11:46
    [callumacrae] seems to be cheaper to just learn braille
  6. zakim-robot
    11:46
    [callumacrae] seems there's grade one braille, which is just changing the letters, and then there's grade two braille, which has stuff like contractions
  7. zakim-robot
    11:46
    [callumacrae] world in grade one braille is ⠺⠕⠗⠇⠙ but in grade two braille is ⠸⠺
  8. zakim-robot
    11:48
    [callumacrae] this is interesting stuff
  9. MichielBijl
    12:31
    A braille course couldn't hurt.
  10. MichielBijl
    12:31
    I'd actually be interested in that too.
  11. MichielBijl
    12:32
    I've never had the chance to work with a braille display. Would be quite the experience I'm guessing.
  12. MichielBijl
    12:49
    Are the dpub ARIA roles supported in modern day browsers?
  13. jkva
    12:53
    @MichielBijl: You going to CSUN?
  14. MichielBijl @MichielBijl changes his name to Michiel “Can't afford to go to CSUN” Bijl
  15. MichielBijl
    12:53
    No =(
  16. jkva
    12:53
    aw :(
  17. MichielBijl
    12:54
    People have suggested solutions: https://gitter.im/w3c/a11ySlackers?at=568ebe2bee13050b38a23f1b
  18. MichielBijl
    12:54
    But I'm not sure any of those will work =P
  19. jkva
    12:55
    You can't drink without a liver
  20. MichielBijl
    12:55
    Yes, that would become a problem eventually.
  21. MichielBijl
    12:56
    But enough about me not going to CSUN.
  22. MichielBijl
    12:56
    Are you going?
  23. jkva
    12:56
    Yeah. Some guy called Gonz wants to have a beer with me apparently
  24. jkva
    12:57
    If it's Russian River or Lagunitas, I'm down
  25. MichielBijl
    12:57
    The skateboarder?
  26. jkva
    12:58
    https://twitter.com/gonz_blinko
  27. MichielBijl
    12:59
    That makes more sense
  28. stevefaulkner
    12:59

    Are the dpub ARIA roles supported in modern day browsers?

    not yet AFAIK

  29. MichielBijl
    12:59
    That makes me a sad panda
  30. jkva
    13:00
    But jokes aside, all the stories @stommepoes told me makes me want to see it. Lots of the talks seem very interesting, and I wouldn't mind more knowledge on a11y.
  31. MichielBijl
    13:01
    I'm looking to go next year. I'm sure you'll have fun there =)
  32. jkva
    13:04
    @michielbijl Can you follow me on twitter?
  33. MichielBijl
    13:05
    Done
  34. jkva
    13:06
    Thanks
  35. zakim-robot
    13:16
    [callumacrae] @michiel: not sure where you're from, but RNIB have a course for sighted people to learn braille: http://www.rnib.org.uk/braille-and-moon-%E2%80%93-tactile-codes-learning-braille-braille-courses-adults/rnib-certificate-contracted
  36. zakim-robot
    13:16
    [callumacrae] includes both grade one and grade two braille
  37. MichielBijl
    13:19
    @callumacrae I'm in Dutchyland, but will be in London on the 22nd
  38. MichielBijl
    13:19
    The time scale for completing the course is 12 months.
  39. MichielBijl
    13:19
    That won't fit in a day :P
  40. zakim-robot
    13:20
    [callumacrae] Think that's a bit ambitious for one day
  41. MichielBijl
    13:20
    Guess I'll have to move…
  42. zakim-robot
    13:20
    [callumacrae] Do it. London is great :simple_smile:
  43. MichielBijl
    13:20
    I bet there is something in the neighbourhood.
  44. MichielBijl
    13:20
    A dear friend of mine lives in Oxford, that could be fun.
  45. MichielBijl
    13:20
    But, I have my targets set on Copenhagen, so no London for me.
  46. zakim-robot
    13:21
    [callumacrae] for some reason it isn't on the hiring website, but I'm pretty sure we're hiring front-end devs where I work
  47. StommePoes
    13:26
    @michielBijl you won't be able to fit in my luggage, I bring a little duffle bag and a backpacl
  48. StommePoes
    13:26
    pack*
  49. StommePoes
    13:27
    Sucks that I need two computer to work, I just can't get anything done with Windows : (
  50. jkva
    13:27
    But you look like a hollywood hacker
  51. jkva
    13:27
    Wear the sunglasses!
  52. StommePoes
    13:27
    so I may be hauling 2 machines, hate flying with electronics ESP to the States, you never know what they'll do to your stuff
  53. jkva
    13:28
    That's why I carry a USB stick with a VM rectally
  54. jkva
    13:28
    hmm, recta11y
  55. jkva
    13:29
    ...I'll see myself out
  56. MichielBijl
    13:34
    Haha
  57. MichielBijl
    13:34
    If we ever do need to change the name of this room, that's be it!
  58. MichielBijl
    13:35
    Pretty sure @stevefaulkner would be okay with that.
  59. jkva
    13:43
    Any suggestions for something like the Macromedia Fireworks of old, that I can use for image munging on OSX? It does not have to be free.
  60. MichielBijl
    13:45
    Pixelmator = Photoshop for 30€
  61. MichielBijl
    13:45
    Doesn't have all the features, but does a pretty damn good job of coming close
  62. MichielBijl
    13:45
    You can try it on http://pixelmator.com
  63. jkva
    13:45
    MichielBijl++ - that looks promising
  64. dothedesign
    13:53
    Has anyone had to "teach accessibility" to developers, something along the lines of two four hour coding camps? I have watched every YouTube accessibility video, googled, ect but am having a hard time linearizing all the possible topics. Thoughts?
  65. MichielBijl
    13:53
    @callumacrae where do you work?
  66. garcialo
    13:53
    Yup. Not in formal courses, usually 1-on-1
  67. zakim-robot
    13:54
    [callumacrae] @michiel: http://making.lostmy.name/
  68. garcialo
    13:55
    @dothedesign I would try thinking about it kind of by feature. Check out the Filters on http://w3c.github.io/wai-wcag-quickref/?currentsidebar=%23col_customize
  69. dothedesign
    14:09
    @garcialo Looks like a good place to start. I was trying to break it down by talking requirements, some basic screen reader use having the devs use ChromeVox, keyboard testing, free tools such as WAVE, Color Contrast AnaIyser, Axe and then giving inaccessible code for forms/sliders/accordions... I do not have experience in public speaking or teaching, any thoughts on how long one person would need to prepare for this?
  70. garcialo
    14:11
    Ah, the general idea for prepping is 3-4 hours for every 1 hour teaching
  71. garcialo
    14:12
    So when teaching completely knew people about a11y, I would start with the people
  72. MichielBijl
    14:13
    Like an introduction to different forms of (temporary) disabilities?
  73. garcialo
    14:13
    Develop the empathy. Talk about different types of disabilities and what types of barriers would apply for each.
  74. garcialo
    14:14
    Then just kind of barely mention the guidelines. Just so they know the terminology of WCAG and Section 508 (if you're in the US)
  75. MichielBijl
    14:15
    Just show this video to get empathy: http://www.vandlshow.com/2015/03/17/rebranding-accessibility/
  76. MichielBijl
    14:15
    :P
  77. jkva
    14:15
    Ah, this is good stuff.
  78. garcialo
    14:15
    Then, I would go about teaching them concepts based around features. Images / Forms / Media / Timing / etc.
  79. MichielBijl
    14:15
    “I introduce: ‘it's hard to use the mouse with the other hand’-mode”
  80. garcialo
    14:16
    Yeah, after the first session you'll always want to give them homework of performing some empathy exercise.
  81. dothedesign
    14:16
    I watched a YouTube video presented by Jared Smith and he asked the audience how many people wore eyeglasses. It seemed like a good way to introduce AT's
  82. MichielBijl
    14:17
    “How many of you use tab to get around a form?”
  83. StommePoes
    14:17
    garcialo++
  84. MichielBijl
    14:17
    I really like the role=door example too.
  85. StommePoes
    14:17
    the whut?
  86. garcialo
    14:17
    @MichielBijl That's a bit advanced for completely new peeps. =p
  87. garcialo
    14:18
    But yes, it's a good example. If you haven't seen Derek's bed example, it's much better, imo =)
  88. MichielBijl
    14:18
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6wZlTcwGks&feature=youtu.be&list=PL95LOQw9SLWwWL7TOgTf5m3d6B8FPF56x&t=131
  89. StommePoes
    14:18
    I'm planning on giving some similar sort of talk at a general developers' meetup where I want them walking away knowing more the types of people using their site/app and the various ways they interact, with finally a bit of code to show a few examples... that'd be enough knowledge for them to know what kinds of questions to ask or where to go for more, i think.
  90. MichielBijl
    14:18
    @garcialo link?
  91. garcialo
    14:19
    I've only seen it in talks; don't know if it's online.
  92. garcialo
    14:19
    Will check
  93. MichielBijl
    14:19
    But I agree, that is too advanced for new people
  94. jkva
    14:19
    I never considered a11y unawareness a problem until the scourge of the 3d-movies and I had to buy special 2-d glasses. It's small things sometimes.
  95. MichielBijl
    15:12
    Nice piece of work by our designers: http://dir.rawr.eu/how-not-to-contrast-and-label.png
  96. MichielBijl
    15:12
    Alt = form fields with inline "labels" and a text/background contrast of a whopping 2.41:1
  97. garcialo
    15:13
    Those aren't inline labels; those are placeholders =p
  98. garcialo
    15:13
    oh, I see
  99. jkva @jkva winces
  100. MichielBijl
    15:17
    @garcialo yep. It's an older project and I'm rebuilding the code. I'll suggest something different to the client.
  101. MichielBijl @MichielBijl will be doing some unpaid overtime…
  102. MichielBijl
    15:18
    It didn't even have hidden labels. So I've added those to start with.
  103. MichielBijl
    15:19
    It's interesting how stuff is easy to make SR accessible without changing design.
  104. MichielBijl @MichielBijl has made a lot of stuff SR/AT accessible that has terrible colour contrast.
  105. MichielBijl
    15:19
    Can't win all battles =(
  106. StommePoes
    15:28
    It's always easier to fix the stuff in code that remains hidden than challenge the higher-up-the-totem-pole, better-paid, better-liked graphics people
  107. MichielBijl
    15:29
    Yeppers
  108. StommePoes
    15:29
    It's why I used the labels-move-out-of-the-inputs... there's nothing good about it, except it keeps the designer's design when they first open the page
  109. StommePoes
    15:29
    so, fake-placeholders.
  110. MichielBijl
    15:30
    Yeah, I've considered adding that here.
  111. MichielBijl
    15:30
    Still can actually.
  112. MichielBijl
    15:30
    Can transition the colour to #000 too =P
  113. MichielBijl
    15:39
    What would accessibilitea taste like?
  114. garcialo
    15:40
    It would taste like sunshine.
  115. MichielBijl
    15:40
    Hmm
  116. MichielBijl
    15:49
    Would <svg aria-role="presentation"> be a good way to indicate an SVG is only used as decoration?
  117. MichielBijl
    15:49
    As a substitute for <img alt="">.
  118. jkva
    15:55
    I thought accessibilitea came with free tag soup
  119. stevefaulkner
    15:56

    Would <svg aria-role="presentation"> be a good way to indicate an SVG is only used as decoration?

    doesn't work like that as <svg> is a container element that can contain indvidual images

  120. stevefaulkner
    15:57
    and as children of <svg> are not 'required children' presentation is not inherited
  121. MichielBijl
    15:57
    So what should I do? It has an title attribute. Do I need to remove that?
  122. stevefaulkner
    15:58
    @MichielBijl well presentation may well mask acc name on <svg> element, but would need to check
  123. stevefaulkner
    15:59
    @MichielBijl some SVG testing a did a few years back now https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/377471/SVG/index.html give you a flavour of how it works
  124. MichielBijl
    16:00
    Thanks!
  125. stevefaulkner
    16:02
    have a look at https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/377471/SVG/adobesimplesvgtest1.html under NVDA reports multiple images in IE
  126. MichielBijl
    16:02
    Figure 1. by using role=presentation on the child elements of the svg element, the role of the nested graphics can be hidden.
  127. MichielBijl
    16:02
    Yeah I saw that
  128. MichielBijl
    16:03
    Seems <img src="nose-pickering.svg" alt=""> would be the best solutions.
  129. MichielBijl
    16:03
    But that doesn't support fill: currentColor =(
  130. stevefaulkner
    16:04
    what about aria-hidden=true?
  131. MichielBijl
    16:05
    Duh
  132. MichielBijl
    16:05
    facepalm
  133. MichielBijl
    16:06
    Thank you Steve =)
  134. zakim-robot
    16:08
    [callumacrae] I've been searching for a while and there are very limited resources on learning braille :confused: only found some books with extremely low ratings and some very expensive courses
  135. garcialo
    16:11
    is there a best practice for making sure SVGs don't get ignored by AT?
  136. stevefaulkner
    16:12
    its tricky
  137. garcialo
    16:14
    I mean, I don't want to have to tell people not to use SVGs; and I'm too lazy to figure it out right now =p
  138. MichielBijl
    16:14
    tricky tricky! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-O5IHVhWj0&t=77
  139. MichielBijl
    16:15
    @garcialo this has some SVG tests: https://rawgit.com/MichielBijl/font-awesome/master/tests/svg.html
  140. MichielBijl
    16:16
    And @LjWatson, @chaals, and @StommePoes have been working on this: https://github.com/SVG-access-W3CG/svg-a11y-tests
  141. garcialo
    16:17
    Ah, nice. I'll check it out. Thanks. =)
  142. zakim-robot
    16:49
    [estelle] Chrome has a bug so screen readers on Mac read the image file name when the alt attribute is set to the empty string.
  143. garcialo
    16:50
    Both ChromeVox and VoiceOver?
  144. zakim-robot
    16:50
    [estelle] Do you all recommend adding role=“presentation” so this doesn’t happen, or is it best to not add “cruft” to the markup and wait for chrome to fix it
  145. zakim-robot
    16:50
    [estelle] just tested voiceOver
  146. MichielBijl
    16:50
    Chrome isn't supported in VoiceOver
  147. MichielBijl
    16:50
    Not officially anyway
  148. garcialo
    16:51
    I would say add the role="presentation" until it's fixed. And if you can remember to go back and uncruft it later, great...but it's not going to hurt anything.
  149. MichielBijl
    16:52

    what about aria-hidden?

    https://gitter.im/w3c/a11ySlackers?at=568fde2aa24f18cc0eae0b6a

  150. garcialo
    16:53
    I mean either would probably, but I think role="presentation" more clearly indicates it's decorative =p
  151. MichielBijl
    16:55
    ChromeVox does not have this issue btw
  152. zakim-robot
    16:55
    [estelle] i was just surprised to find out there was that bug in chrome with VoiceOver. You would think something that has been around for 10+ years would not be bug worthy anymore
  153. MichielBijl
    16:55
    Like I said, Chrome is not supported by VoiceOver.
  154. MichielBijl
    16:55
    Safari+VoiceOver and ChromeVox+Chrome work fine.
  155. garcialo
    16:56
    Yeah, I doubt Apple is concerned with making it work with anything other than Safari
  156. zakim-robot
    16:56
    [estelle] thanks for the feedback.
  157. garcialo
    16:56
    wait, does what I say make sense?
  158. MichielBijl
    16:56
    @garcialo they're too busy worrying about longdesc support…
  159. garcialo
    16:56
    there we go; fixed it
  160. MichielBijl
    16:57
    @estelle, in other words, I wouldn't worry too much about =)
  161. MichielBijl
    17:04
    blob
  162. MichielBijl
    17:04
    @estelle
  163. MichielBijl
    17:05
    alt = Accessibility Inspector shows an error for <img src="test.svg" alt=""> in Chrome: Missing value for accessibilityTitle, accessibilityLabel, or accessibilityTitleUIElement
  164. MichielBijl
    17:06
    So that means it is a Chrome bug then?
  165. MichielBijl
    17:07
    That is what you said to begin with…
  166. MichielBijl @MichielBijl needs more whisky
  167. zakim-robot
    17:07
    [devonpersing] Yeah, I wouldn’t worry about it too much! VoiceOver users primarily use Safari. Savvy ones might use Chrome but will expect weirdness.
  168. zakim-robot
    17:10
    [devonpersing] in the same vein, NVDA users will primarily use Firefox, and JAWS users will primarily use IE, for better or worse. the fallout of trying to build a user agent that runs on top of another.
  169. zakim-robot
    17:10
    [estelle] As a sighted user, it’s just so convenient to use VoiceOver on Chrome with just the text showing (no sound) during development. That bug has been driving me a bit crazy, but handling seems like adding cruft
  170. jnurthen
    17:28
    @dothedesign we do an annual "Accessibility Conference" for our devs. It is 3 days in total. Of course we can't teach that much in that time. We also try to keep it pretty general as we have a very wide range of tech stacks that developers use.
  171. jnurthen
    17:29
    Of course I can't share the content as it is corporate confidential
  172. garcialo
    17:29
    @jnurthen Why do always have to be such a tease?
  173. garcialo
    17:30
    On an unrelated note, my company has discovered the secret to immortality.
  174. jnurthen
    17:30
    one of the perils of working for who i do.
  175. garcialo
    17:30
    Can't share it though, sorry.
  176. jnurthen
    17:30
    LOL
  177. jnurthen
    17:31
    I think Larry is working on that through his foundation
  178. garcialo
    17:31
    He's got some fundamental flaws with his methods right now. He's close, but it'll probably be another decade or so before he comes around to doing it properly.
  179. jnurthen
    17:31
    @garcialo I share what I can.
  180. garcialo
    17:32
    =)
  181. jnurthen
    17:32
    I'm excited that our newest framework is going to be open sourced b4 CSUN (hopefully)
  182. jnurthen
    17:32
    going to make it way easier to talk about it
  183. garcialo
    17:43
    I'm also excited
  184. MichielBijl
    17:55
    I'm happy to announce that I'm in dire need of a place to stay in the San Diego area from the 20th to the 26th of March.
  185. MichielBijl
    17:55
    ^^
  186. garcialo
    17:55
    :+1:
  187. jnurthen
    17:59
    cool
  188. MichielBijl
    18:01
    Guess we'll finally meet =D
  189. MichielBijl
    18:02
    Instead of just bitching about longdesc on conference calls =P
  190. garcialo
    18:02
    It'll be like a TweetUp, but for Gitter
  191. garcialo
    18:02
    GitterUp
  192. jnurthen
    18:02
    LOL
  193. MichielBijl
    18:03
    Surely that should GitUp
  194. MichielBijl
    18:03
    As in Git up off your ass and go outside…
  195. garcialo
    18:03
    ah, true
  196. jnurthen
    18:05
    I've never investigated but I think there are some folks who get an airbnb type place in San Diego and split the cost. Hotels are expensive there
  197. jnurthen
    18:05
    Did you book the 36 hour flight?
  198. MichielBijl
    18:13
    Nah, the 15 hour flight is like 40€ extra
  199. MichielBijl
    18:13
    Yeah I'm thinking Airbnb too
  200. jnurthen
    18:17
    I don't stay at the Hyatt as it is too expensive
  201. StommePoes
    18:19
    I stayed about 15-minutes walking away, and it was fairly cheap.
  202. StommePoes
    18:19
    Only problem was all the starving teenagers badgering me everywhere trying to sell me hair extensions, fake eyelashes, fake nails and beer.
  203. StommePoes
    18:19
    It was amazingly horrible
  204. StommePoes
    18:20
    Reminded me of all the desperate Africans selling sun glasses in Pisa
  205. StommePoes
    18:20
    The kids really get in your face so I'm prolly gonna make sure I look too scary for them
  206. StommePoes
    18:20
    or disguise myself as an old person.
  207. MichielBijl
    18:21
    You're a cat; show some claws!
  208. MichielBijl
    18:21
    Where are you staying this year?
  209. StommePoes
    18:22
    Not sure
  210. StommePoes
    18:22
    I dunno if P wants me to stay at the Hyatt this time or not
  211. StommePoes
    18:22
    Mia said last time they waited so long before okaying the budget, she didn't get the conference discount
  212. StommePoes
    18:22
    The rooms are discounted for conference people
  213. StommePoes
    18:22
    but that's still expensive
  214. jkva
    18:22
    I'm gonna try to sleep at some microbrewery somewhere
  215. StommePoes
    18:23
    nom
  216. StommePoes
    18:23
    I used Booking last time, will probably use them again
  217. jkva
    18:23
    THERE ARE 5 PEOPLE LOOKING AT THIS HOTEL
  218. jkva
    18:23
    BOOK NOW
  219. jkva
    18:23
    THE END IS NEAR
  220. StommePoes
    18:23
    Mia told me to maybe reserve a room that allows cancellation so if later I'm told to get a Hyatt room, I'm covered either way.
  221. StommePoes
    18:23
    Someone at booking really needs to add that last one some day
  222. jkva
    18:23
    LOOK OUT, SOMEONE IS BEHIND YOU
  223. MichielBijl
    18:23
    @jkva ha
  224. StommePoes
    18:25
    Someone is looking at this room... over your shoulder
  225. StommePoes
    18:25
    They do it because their A/B testing tells them that it works, but screw A/B testing, it's annoying as fuck.
  226. MichielBijl
    18:25
    @StommePoes don't know, but maybe @zomigi is here; she works at Booking ;)
  227. jkva
    18:25
    Seems $600-$800 for sat-sat
  228. StommePoes
    18:26
    We were looking at a B&B in Brussel with only 1 room at all. Booking's popup: ONLY 1 ROOM LEFT!!!!1
  229. StommePoes
    18:26
    duh, booking
  230. StommePoes
    18:26
    Ooh, last time I stayed fewer days
  231. StommePoes
    18:26
    Oh Michiel we know soooo many people at Booking
  232. StommePoes
    18:26
    it's a Perl club
  233. jkva
    18:26
    Ew Perl
  234. StommePoes
    18:26
    Didn't know zomigi was there
  235. jkva
    18:26
    That language needs to die
  236. StommePoes
    18:26
    stoute lief
  237. jkva
    18:27
    ;)
  238. MichielBijl
    18:27
    ZOMG
  239. MichielBijl
    18:27
    This is a rare find.
    Kate's place is usually booked.
  240. jkva
    18:27
    wot?
  241. MichielBijl
    18:27
    So @jkva, what sort of animal are you anyway =P
  242. jkva
    18:28
    If I may believe my wife, a jackass
  243. MichielBijl
    18:28
    Haha
  244. MichielBijl
    18:28
    Fair enough.
  245. jkva
    18:29
    What's kate's place? BnB?
  246. MichielBijl
    18:29
    Yep, one room, 272€ for the week…
  247. jnurthen
    18:29
    watch out. If you say someone else might start looking at it :)
  248. MichielBijl
    18:29
    But haven't looked where it is…
  249. jkva
    18:30
    Not sure about public transport in San Diego
  250. MichielBijl
    18:30
    Never been to the US, so not sure about anything.
  251. jkva
    18:30
    When I was in San Jose there were shuttle buses and taxis, but that was all silicon valley sprawl
  252. jnurthen
    18:30
    downtown is very walkable. There is also the trolley
  253. jkva
    18:30
    Oh you're in for a treat then MichielBijl
  254. garcialo
    18:30
    @MichielBijl You have a kevlar vest, right?
  255. MichielBijl
    18:30
    Hehe
  256. jnurthen
    18:30
    that runs close to the Hyatt
  257. MichielBijl
    18:31
    @garcialo no, can I borrow one?
  258. garcialo
    18:31
    Sure, I'll bring a spare.
  259. MichielBijl
    18:31
    Thanks ;)
  260. garcialo
    18:31
    Don't worry about bringing a gun, they'll have them at check-in.
  261. jkva
    18:31
    :D
  262. jnurthen
    18:32
    LOL
  263. StommePoes
    18:32
    You get a free gun if you enter Murica
  264. StommePoes
    18:32
    it's the welcome gift
  265. MichielBijl
    18:32
    Nice
  266. MichielBijl
    18:32
    Like a 1911 or something?
  267. jkva
    18:32
    :( I just got yelled at in Detroit and detained for 3 hours
  268. StommePoes
    18:32
    I walked from downtown (through the starving teenager hustle) to the Hyatt the whole time, about 15 minutes
  269. StommePoes
    18:33
    Oh also if you don't manager to shoot anyonw while you're in Murica, you might be detained as you try to leave, because you'll be "suspicious"
  270. jkva
    18:34
    And you gotta eat a steak while you do that. Or is that only in Texas?
  271. MichielBijl
    18:34
    I'll go live with Luis then
  272. jnurthen
    18:34
    If you find something in "Little Italy","Downtown" or "Gaslamp" it is probably close
  273. StommePoes
    18:34
    I did downtown, gaslamp was a bit too far to walk if I needed to pop back during the day or something
  274. MichielBijl
    18:34
    Does it help at all if I'm part italian?
  275. StommePoes
    18:34
    I dunno if little italy is still italian
  276. MichielBijl
    18:35
    Papi di poopi?
  277. jkva
    18:35
    Hello, and welcome to Cartalk
  278. StommePoes
    18:35
    there's like a old-old part of town that's the original Mexican (from when Cali wasn't american but mexican) but it's just buildings now
  279. StommePoes
    18:35
    snort snort snort car talk snorts
  280. jnurthen
    18:35
    Little Italy has the Ballast Point tasting room so its a favourite of mine
  281. jkva
    18:36
    :O a brewery!
  282. jkva
    18:37
    Cali craft beer culture is so good
  283. jnurthen
    18:37
    Actually has a bunch of cool beer bars there
  284. jkva
    18:37
    Ooh, and In n Out Burger!
  285. jnurthen
    18:37
    last year a friend took me to a few micro breweries in TJ too.
  286. MichielBijl
    18:37
    I was in the understanding that CSUN was a beef fest thing?
  287. MichielBijl
    18:37
    beer*
  288. StommePoes
    18:38
    @jNurthen were you at accessibeer?
  289. StommePoes
    18:38
    tuesday night
  290. jnurthen
    18:39
    dont think so. I think I arrived on Tuesday. My session was wednesday last year so not sure i was drinking much that night
  291. jnurthen
    18:39
    this year i'm on friday which sucks as tursday is normally party night
  292. StommePoes
    18:39
    somewhere I have a pic, it was a brewery tour (really tiny brewery), we smelled grains etc then tried beers, then Uber'd with dogs and EricW's wheelchair to another place for more drinks
  293. jnurthen
    18:40
    nice
  294. StommePoes
    18:41
    It was pretty cool, Jon Metz had called around for one accessible and willing to do a tour with a group like ours, and kinda set it up
  295. jnurthen
    18:42
    I think I'm going to stay and the Indigo this year - they have a cool rooftop bar (google had their party there last year)
  296. jnurthen
    18:43
    and it is on my corporate hotel list
  297. StommePoes
    18:45
    I remember the google party
  298. StommePoes
    18:46
    (I didn't go, but I remember hearing about it)
  299. zakim-robot
    18:47
    [karlgroves] That was a nice hotel.
  300. StommePoes
    18:51
    I was at the Keating
  301. StommePoes
    18:51
    it was cheap then, got a glass of champagne when I showed up in nmy grubby clothes : P
  302. jnurthen
    18:51
    nothing in SD is cheap but it is a nice place to be in March
  303. StommePoes
    18:52
    jkva found a comfort inn for 600-something for a week
  304. StommePoes
    18:52
    like, sat-sat
  305. StommePoes
    18:52
    must have mice or cockroaches or something
  306. jkva
    18:54
    Cockroaches = extra protein
  307. StommePoes
    18:54
    only when cooked properly and in the food, where they belong
  308. StommePoes
    18:54
    NOT in the bed
  309. StommePoes
    18:54
    no no no
  310. jkva
    18:54
    They keep pulling at the covers
  311. StommePoes
    18:54
    @jnurthen you ever get an answer to this? "Any way to activate an input type=file control with dragon naturally speaking without using mousegrid? "
  312. jnurthen
    19:02
    @StommePoes no
  313. StommePoes
    19:03
    I'm still waiting for my Dragon to come in the mail
  314. StommePoes
    19:03
    that kind of stuff sneaks up on you without testing... I would assume a button is a button is a button (or input), activate same as the others.
  315. jnurthen
    19:04
    yeah - you would assume :)
  316. jnurthen
    19:05
    it might be you can speak "type enter" and that might work. I'll have to try it again some time.
  317. StommePoes
    19:06
    Did the input have a name?
  318. StommePoes
    19:06
    I'm assuming it did.
  319. StommePoes
    19:06
    Usually you'd "click upload photo" or whatever, I thought.
  320. StommePoes
    19:07
    I'll find out when it comes in...
  321. jnurthen
    19:17
    yeah it did have a name
  322. jnurthen
    19:17
    but of course file uploads are kind of mysterious and work very differently on different browsers
  323. StommePoes
    19:20
    yeah
  324. MichielBijl
    19:35
    @StommePoes @jkva mind if I join you at Gaslamp?
  325. jkva
    19:35
    @MichielBijl By all means!
  326. jkva
    19:35
    I sleep naked though
  327. jkva
    19:36
    You can have the couch
  328. StommePoes
    19:37
    hahaha
  329. MichielBijl
    19:38
    Oh, I don't mind, me too
  330. StommePoes
    19:38
    jkva grabbed it from booking.com, you might as well look at it now
  331. StommePoes
    19:38
    unlike flights, hotels kinda tend to be sane-- prices are usually lower the further out you book
  332. StommePoes
    19:38
    I needed something cancelable although jkva is going to be there no matter what P does
  333. StommePoes
    19:39
    there's also all these backpacker places, filled with hip-looking youths
  334. jkva
    19:39
    Yeah, we can cancel until a couple days before, so we oughta be safe
  335. MichielBijl
    19:59
    I've booked the same place. Was also considering the something something, dark side, something Grand Hotel thing, but the gaslamp includes breakfast…
  336. jkva
    20:00
    It seems pretty popular, apart from the busking children in the neighborhood
  337. MichielBijl
    20:00
    I'm an a11y cat; should be fine
  338. jkva
    20:01
    I was in some hotel in Michigan, and there was a machine that if you pressed a button and waited 1 minute, out rolled 2 pancakes!
  339. jkva
    20:01
    <3 America
  340. MichielBijl
    20:01
    😱
  341. MichielBijl
    20:01
    In Denmark they have similar machines, but ice comes out =P
  342. jkva
    20:02
    But the beer is so expensive :-/
  343. MichielBijl
    20:02
    In Denmark?
  344. jkva
    20:02
    Yeah
  345. MichielBijl
    20:02
    Norway and Sweden, but not Denmark.
  346. MichielBijl
    20:02
    Denmark is quite alright.
  347. MichielBijl
    20:02
    Okay, Germany is cheaper, but Germany is cheaper with everything.
  348. jnurthen
    20:02
    but the beer doesn't taste of beer in Denmark
  349. jkva
    20:02
    Hm, maybe kopenhagen was just expensive
  350. jnurthen
    20:03
    or maybe i just have drunk the wrong beer there
  351. MichielBijl
    20:03
    @jnurthen and beer in Muriva does?
  352. MichielBijl
    20:03
    What did you have?
  353. jnurthen
    20:03
    so long ago I can't remember....
  354. jkva
    20:03
    MichielBijl: You can throw a rock in California and hit a craft brewery nowadays
  355. jnurthen
    20:03
    US beer has come a long way in the last 10 years
  356. jkva
    20:04
    I read in the paper, in the USA, every 16 minutes (oddly specific) a new craft brewery starts. Probably a lot fall over too, though.
  357. jnurthen
    20:04
    i have 2 breweries in my town (island)
  358. jkva
    20:04
    I worked as a brewer for a while. Best job I ever had.
  359. jkva @jkva sighs
  360. MichielBijl
    20:05
    Is it safe to only take a debit card to the states?
  361. jkva
    20:05
    In my experience you get charged a fee on use
  362. jnurthen
    20:05
    yeah - should be ok. Only gotcha could be a hotel putting a big hold on it
  363. MichielBijl
    20:06
    Hotel can be paid in cash.
  364. MichielBijl
    20:06
    Luckily.
  365. MichielBijl
    20:06
    But I don't have a credit card so was wondering whether I should get one.
  366. MichielBijl
    20:07
    Don't have much use for it besides this.
  367. jnurthen
    20:07
    as long as you don't want to rent a car should be fine (and no need for that in San Diego)
  368. jkva
    20:07
    Most hookers take cash
  369. MichielBijl
    20:07
    Good to know
  370. MichielBijl
    20:07
    Don't think I'll be using much hookers though
  371. MichielBijl
    20:07
    And I'm not allowed to drive a car, so that shouldn't be a problem either =P
  372. StommePoes
    20:10
    it's a good thing to have a credit card as many hotels and other services only accept those
  373. StommePoes
    20:10
    got mine via Rabo
  374. StommePoes
    20:10
    Americans are more credit-based people
  375. MichielBijl
    20:10
    Yeah, but it seems pointless to get a CC for a week…
  376. StommePoes
    20:10
    bank cards are really not a thing there, except, strangely, poor people are debit-card users (which is a lot like a bank card) but not sure if they're popular with the middle class at all
  377. StommePoes
    20:10
    Nah you can use them forever
  378. jnurthen
    20:11
    as long as your debit card has a visa logo on it it is fine
  379. MichielBijl
    20:11
    Only Maestro…
  380. StommePoes
    20:11
    yeah we're maestro
  381. StommePoes
    20:11
    but rabo is in california!
  382. jnurthen
    20:12
    thats mastercard right... should be fine too
  383. MichielBijl
    20:12
    So I'm getting mixed signals, should I, or should I not get a CC? It's not an issue to get one (probably), but want to know for suere
  384. MichielBijl
    20:12
    suer*
  385. MichielBijl
    20:12
    sure*
  386. StommePoes
    20:12
    I eneded up bringing dollars last time and while I brought my rabo card, I don't belive I used it once
  387. MichielBijl
    20:12
    DAMNIT
  388. jkva
    20:12
    It's easy to get, and you can just have it deactivated when you come home
  389. StommePoes
    20:12
    I think having a cc is handy for when you need one, and easy to ignore if most of the time you don't need oner
  390. StommePoes
    20:12
    one
  391. MichielBijl
    20:13
    That is true. I'll have a look at the cost.
  392. MichielBijl
    20:13
    And what Job said, can always deactivate after CSUN.
  393. StommePoes
    20:14
    Booking.com hotels almost always want to use cc's to reserve rooms for example
  394. MichielBijl
    20:14
    Yeah, I used my dads for that :P
  395. StommePoes
    20:14
    you don't have to pay with it, just reserve with it, as I usually want to just pay when I get there
  396. StommePoes
    20:14
    I don't see the point of credit if you have money
  397. StommePoes
    20:14
    Americans buy lots on credit, it's a thing
  398. StommePoes
    20:14
    in NL, mostly just mortgages and maybe cars
  399. jnurthen
    20:15
    I use credit cards for everything but just for the points.....lets me travel for free sometimes
  400. jnurthen
    20:16
    but I guess I am not American ;)
  401. StommePoes
    20:18
    I have no idea, are you american?
  402. jnurthen
    20:18
    no. I'm British - I just live here
  403. StommePoes
    20:18
    Brits might also be CC users
  404. StommePoes
    20:19
    It's just that in NL, it's not terribly popular
  405. jkva
    20:19
    Blimey
  406. jnurthen
    20:19
    yeah - they are. Yeah - in France too
  407. StommePoes
    20:19
    Though I'm glad I've got one through my bank, some places online only take CCs
  408. StommePoes
    20:19
    and booking
  409. jnurthen
    20:19
    my family is there. They have no problems travelling without one
  410. MichielBijl
    20:20
    So, @StommePoes just discovered that my bank has aria-live=assertive on the body O_o
  411. jnurthen
    20:20
    gulp
  412. MichielBijl
    20:20
    To quote > they need a nun to swat their hands with a metal ruler
  413. jnurthen
    20:20
    i guess if it is a static page it won't do much hram
  414. jnurthen
    20:20
    harm
  415. jnurthen
    20:20
    :)
  416. jkva
    20:20
    haram?
  417. StommePoes
    20:20
    With all the BS deprecated XMLHttpRequests they're making, who knows how static it is
  418. StommePoes
    20:21
    haha, that code is def haram
  419. MichielBijl
    20:21
    Yeah, ABN is definetly forbidden by Islamic law
  420. StommePoes
    20:21
    just their code
  421. StommePoes
    20:21
    woekerij is also haram : P
  422. MichielBijl
    20:22
    The site broke because I block their add scripts…
  423. MichielBijl
    20:22
    blob
  424. StommePoes
    20:22
    It's why I had to stop using FF+NoScript to use Rabobank... I could allow scripts individually, but eventually between requests it would die in a fire.
  425. MichielBijl
    20:22
    alt=Developer Tools show long list of errors on ABN.nl
  426. StommePoes
    20:22
    have to allow them all at once, as it needs.
  427. StommePoes
    20:23
    "a.data.match is not a function"
  428. StommePoes
    20:23
    lawlz.
  429. jkva
    20:24
    sheesh
  430. garcialo
    20:32
    @jnurthen Were you aware you can edit posts?
  431. MichielBijl
    20:33
    @StommePoes I've called ABN out on it.
  432. MichielBijl
    20:33
    Their website is a mess.
  433. MichielBijl
    20:33
    You can't go into your rekeningen…
  434. jnurthen
    20:36
    no
  435. garcialo
    20:37
    Mouse-over post, click the ellipsis near the timestamp, select Edit
  436. jnurthen
    20:37
    but you have to do it quick!
  437. garcialo
    20:37
    Not really. =p
  438. jkva
    20:37
    arrow-up
  439. jkva
    20:37
    does the other thing
  440. garcialo
    20:37
    Or that!
  441. garcialo
    20:37
    I didn't know that one.
  442. jnurthen
    20:37
    can't edit a post from 20 mins ago
  443. garcialo
    20:37
    You can't? Oh weird.
  444. MichielBijl
    20:37
    I always forget that you can arrow up
  445. jkva
    20:37
    Ha! I can regexregex
  446. garcialo
    20:38
    Guess I had never tried that. =p
  447. jkva
    20:38
    's/foo/bar/'
  448. jkva
    20:38
    very cool
  449. MichielBijl
    20:38
    That never seems to work
  450. MichielBijl
    20:38
    foo
  451. MichielBijl
    20:38
    s/bar/bar
  452. jkva
    20:38
    Don't forget the end slash
  453. MichielBijl
    20:38
    Whoop
  454. MichielBijl @MichielBijl sucks at regex
  455. jkva
    20:39
    Want some Perl books? ;)
  456. jkva
    20:39
    I was at a python job interview, asked to do some text munging exercise
  457. MichielBijl
    20:39
    I have to get started with AWD first…
  458. jkva
    20:39
    So I start writing a regex.
  459. jkva
    20:39
    "Oh wait, you're one of those Perl guys, aren;t you. Ok you can't use a regex."
  460. jkva
    20:39
    FFFFFUUUUU
  461. MichielBijl
    20:40
    What? They don't want you to use your skills?
  462. jkva
    20:40
    Yeah was weird
  463. jkva
    20:40
    Ended up doing the same thing with string splitting and list comprehensions
  464. jkva
    20:41
    but why tie my hands behind my back. Like Python coders don't use regexes
  465. MichielBijl
    20:42
    s/no/yes/ =P
  466. garcialo
    20:43
    The problem I have with regex is that I've not needed to use them often enough to learn them.
  467. MichielBijl
    20:44

    This quote from @estelle seems to fit the ABN situation:

    To err is human. To really fuck things up requires JavaScript.

  468. jkva
    20:52
    isIE8 = navigator.userAgent.indexOf('MSIE 8.0') !== -1;
  469. jkva
    20:52
    WOT
  470. jnurthen
    20:54
    @garcialo Regexbuddy has saved me whenever i do need them
  471. MichielBijl
    20:55
    https://regex101.com/
  472. MichielBijl
    20:55
    There you go, jsfiddle for regex
  473. MichielBijl
    20:56
    via @karlgroves
  474. jnurthen
    20:59
    Nice - I like that a lot
  475. MichielBijl
    21:01
    https://twitter.com/karlgroves/status/685431805441404929