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A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 15th of January 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. metzessible
    Jan 15 00:00
    At Societe, @ewaccess bought me a wicked nice airlock growler (which I subsequently bought a second one). I brought them from LA to DC with a transfer in Dallas. Enjoyed them when I got back.
  2. metzessible
    Jan 15 00:01
    Actually, I'd really recommend against getting a metal one for a few reasons.
  3. metzessible
    Jan 15 00:02
    Technically, most of the regulations require you to keep the bottle in it's original container, unopened.
  4. metzessible
    Jan 15 00:06
    Secondly, when we brew the beer, we'll be bottling them ourselves, and when we do, we'll be capping them not screwing them. The reason for this is because this is the best way to ensure the beers are drinkable without exposing them to harmful bacteria.
  5. jnurthen
    Jan 15 00:06
    ah - that would be better
  6. jnurthen
    Jan 15 00:07
    will you be putting together an "equipment I need" list or do you have a link to one?
  7. metzessible
    Jan 15 00:07
    A lot of people fly with alcohol. Whether it's purchased in the Duty Free or simply purchased at the vineyard before returning home.
  8. jnurthen
    Jan 15 00:07
    yeah - I do all the time :)
  9. metzessible
    Jan 15 00:08
    As far as the equipment, there's a few options.
  10. jnurthen
    Jan 15 00:08
    I made wine 10 years ago - and have taken bottles all over the place (including back to Europe)
  11. jnurthen
    Jan 15 00:09
    still have some bottles (& magnums) of that left. 2005 Amber Ridge Pinot Noir from Russian River
  12. jnurthen
    Jan 15 00:10
    (if I can't bring beer I can bring wine!)
  13. metzessible
    Jan 15 00:10
    Nice! I don't drink wine myself, but I'm sure somebody would!
  14. jnurthen
    Jan 15 00:11
    is there a place I can sign up for this? slackers doesn't seem the right place to be discussing!
  15. jnurthen
    Jan 15 00:11
    ... or maybe it does
  16. metzessible
    Jan 15 00:20
    I dunno. I asked @stevefaulkner if he thought anybody would mind, and was basically told to go for it. We'd probably benefit from another room to chat about it though so people don't get inundated with beer convo.
  17. metzessible
    Jan 15 00:21
    I think what's going to be really cool about this is trying to figure out a way to make the process of brewing beer as inclusive as possible.
  18. metzessible
    Jan 15 00:22
    Oky doky. Feel free to join me over at https://gitter.im/metzessible/ACCESSIBEER
  19. jnurthen
    Jan 15 00:26
    I'm sure no one minds.... We can ping people every now and again to come on over.
  20. zakim-robot
    07:18
    [jitendra] Which is preferred way to select date in form?
  21. zakim-robot
    07:18
    [jitendra] Which Date picker you would recommend?
  22. zakim-robot
    07:21
    [jitendra] support for native input type=date is not good
  23. MichielBijl
    08:11
    There are some resources on this. @RabitPuffin made an exellent video on this.
  24. cr2a-graphique
    08:12
    thanks @stevefaulkner
  25. stevefaulkner
    08:19
    @metzessible wrote: "I dunno. I asked @stevefaulkner if he thought anybody would mind" note I don't 'own' the a11yslackers room, I just set it up
  26. stevefaulkner
    08:19
    @cr2a-graphique no problem
  27. MichielBijl
    08:51

    note I don't 'own' the a11yslackers room, I just set up the rules

    Corrected that for you ;)

  28. jkva
    08:51
    We live under the implicit iron fist
  29. MichielBijl
    08:54
    @jitendra: whoops, the name is @RabidPuffin, I totally butchered that…
  30. MichielBijl
    08:55
    Here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFDRXVs44bo&feature=youtu.be
  31. iandevlin
    08:56
    Ah this will be interesting to look at, I have been taking a long look at the date input lately and have noticed some weirdness, especially with implementation in Blink (I reported a bug - https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=577680 - but was told it was by design)
  32. iandevlin
    09:02
    Ok, I just had a look, but the conclusion I take from it is "don't use input type date, build your own" but surely it makes more sense to use input type date for devices which can then use their own native calendars which the user would be used to anyway? Even browsers like Firefox that do not support input type date, DO support it on their mobile versions.
  33. StommePoes
    09:27
    Would be nice if every OS had an accessible built-in date picker that got called by all browsers running on that OS
  34. StommePoes
    09:27
    but designers would wail
  35. StommePoes
    09:27
    and gnash teeth
  36. iandevlin
    09:42
    They will, understandably, always want to style it and given how the one in Chrome looks, I don't blame them!
  37. stevefaulkner
    09:52

    @MichielBijl the 'rule' being:

    So drop in and say Hi or lurk, ask a question or answer a question, share info, help make the web >more accessible and usable for all. It’s not exclusive, no question is too simple, only rule is: be nice.

    https://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2015/07/anybody-can-be-an-a11y-slacker/

  38. MichielBijl
    10:10
    =)
  39. zakim-robot
    10:30
    [jitendra] what do you people think about this http://html.cita.illinois.edu/nav/form/date/index.php?example=5
  40. MichielBijl
    10:59
    Hmm, would the top right part of this website be navigation (it navigates to other websites) or contentinfo/footer (it has links to the various social channels of the band): http://www.youngwonder.me/
  41. MichielBijl
    10:59
    Sorry for the inaccessibility, but that's what I'm fixing =P
  42. iandevlin
    11:05
    @MichielBijl I would say no, as it's not the only "navigation" on the site and also not the main navigation on the site.
  43. MichielBijl
    11:06
    So it's the footer? Or maybe even an aside.
  44. iandevlin
    11:14
    Perhaps I misunderstood, I thought that with "be navigation" you meant "should I use a nav".
  45. iandevlin
    11:15
    Of course a footer can be at the top of a page too...but I think it can stay where it is, I just wouldn't use a <nav> but perhaps you hadn't intended to do that anyway!
  46. MichielBijl
    11:21
    Let me rephrase, what element should be used for the links to social media on a page? It is related to the page, but not the main content. One could argue the preorder link is navigation, but that link is a duplicate of the main content. My gut says this should be an aside.
  47. MichielBijl
    11:23
    Or rather which element should wrap those links.
  48. iandevlin
    11:26
    I would agree with you in this case.
  49. stevefaulkner
    11:36
    something that crawled out of me: Simple standalone toggletip widget pattern https://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2016/01/simple-standalone-toggletip-widget-pattern/
  50. iandevlin
    11:56
    Sounds painful
  51. stevefaulkner
    11:59
    process of getting stuff into words can be
  52. MichielBijl
    12:02
    @iandevlin =)
  53. stevefaulkner
    12:05
    @iandevlin https://twitter.com/stevefaulkner/status/687968646015102977
  54. iandevlin
    12:08
    @stevefaulkner TMI
  55. MichielBijl
    12:08
    Ha
  56. stevefaulkner
    12:08
    always
  57. iandevlin
    12:10
    True
  58. stevefaulkner
    12:11
    I am stoic in the face of social conventions
  59. MichielBijl
    13:25
    Before I send this out to them, does anyone see any issues on this page: http://michielbijl.github.io/young-wonder/build/ source here: https://github.com/MichielBijl/young-wonder
  60. MichielBijl
    13:29
    Tested it with VoiceOver, and seems to make sense.
  61. MichielBijl
    13:30
    The main content is a bit weird in that it really only is the one link.
  62. MichielBijl
    13:30
    I should probably switch the title and image…
  63. MichielBijl
    13:30
    hang on.
  64. MichielBijl
    13:37
    Fixed
  65. MichielBijl
    13:39
    Woah, I had no idea IE11 didn't support main as a block element…
  66. metzessible
    13:54
    Oops sorry for implicating that @stevefaulkner owns this room. I phrased it like I did to make it less likely for that to happen. Unfortunately I either had too many beers or didn't have enough to write it the correct way. :smile:
  67. metzessible
    13:56
    In case you missed it last night. I set up a room for #ACCESSIBEER. You can join the conversation over at https://gitter.im/metzessible/ACCESSIBEER. I'll be starting a Github thing to make sure all the info is in the right place.
  68. MichielBijl
    14:08
    It now has IE6+ support
  69. MichielBijl
    14:08
    Tested with bunch of browsers+AT
  70. MichielBijl
    14:09
    Think I'm good to go. Unless someone here sees any issues. Not sure about the alt texts for the main content and preorder link in the top right.
  71. MichielBijl
    14:09
    Updated version here: http://michielbijl.github.io/young-wonder/build/
  72. MichielBijl
    14:19
    https://twitter.com/MichielBijl/status/688001977318567936 :)
  73. iandevlin
    14:20
    Ha, never heard of them but they are from my place of birth, how nice.
  74. MichielBijl
    14:21
    =D
  75. jkva
    14:47
    @MichielBijl: Nice work, clever
  76. jkva
    14:48
    Does the aria-labelledby cancel out the required alt for the main-text.png?
  77. MichielBijl
    14:48
    Thanks! Not bad for 2 hours of work =P
  78. MichielBijl
    14:48
    Hmm.
  79. MichielBijl
    14:49
    The exact same text is nearby.
  80. jkva
    14:49
    In the <p> you mean?
  81. MichielBijl
    14:49
    Yes. WAI guide says images of text should have copy of text.
  82. MichielBijl
    14:49
    But, I feel it's redundant here.
  83. jkva
    14:49
    Yeah, so I understand what you mean it being duplicate though
  84. jkva
    14:51
    Now let's hope they make a song about web a11y
  85. MichielBijl
    14:51
    That would be awesome =D
  86. MichielBijl
    14:51
    Accessible Young Wonders =P
  87. jkva
    14:52
    They sound somewhat psychedelic
  88. jkva
    14:53
    Not my thing, but I can see the appeal in their music
  89. MichielBijl
    14:57
    It's great for certain moods.
  90. MichielBijl
    14:58
    But I guess that can be said for every genre…
  91. zakim-robot
    15:34
    [heidi] @alice thanks for the info re: sameroom.io /glitter !
  92. zakim-robot
    15:34
    [heidi] er, gitter
  93. MichielBijl
    15:41
    Funny you'd say that, I'm working on: https://rawgit.com/MichielBijl/gitter-semantics/master/build/index.html
  94. MichielBijl
    15:41
    (see page title)
  95. cr2a-graphique
    16:17
    this table : http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/hidden.html say aria-hidden="true" not working on NVDA ? right ?
  96. jkva
    16:18
    Looks like it, but not sure how accurate that still is
  97. jkva
    16:19
    NVDA 2012 would be about 2-3 years out of date by now, but I don't know its development rate
  98. stevefaulkner
    16:20
    the test cases are right there on the page, so you can test
  99. cr2a-graphique
    16:24
    aria-hidden="true" can be use on block element ? like div or only on element like text/title ?
  100. MichielBijl
    16:25
    https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#aria-hidden
  101. MichielBijl
    16:26
    Used in Roles: All elements of the base markup
  102. cr2a-graphique
    16:29
    thanks a lot @MichielBijl
  103. MichielBijl
    16:31
    :+1:
  104. MichielBijl
    16:32
    For future reference, you can basically do https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#aria- + name of attribute.
  105. MichielBijl
    16:33

    So,

    https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#aria-labelledby
    https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#aria-minvalue
    https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#aria-live

    Should all work.

  106. cr2a-graphique
    16:35
    thanks
  107. cr2a-graphique
    16:36
    not a technical question but what do you think about RGAA3 ?
  108. MichielBijl
    16:38
    What's RGAA3?
  109. cr2a-graphique
    16:39
    lol, french reference for accessibility.
  110. cr2a-graphique
    16:40
    is there a paid accessibility label in your country ?
  111. MichielBijl
    16:41
    A label? Like a government department or something?
  112. cr2a-graphique
    16:41
    yes
  113. MichielBijl
    16:41
    We have the Webrichtlijnen (Web Guidelines) which is a super set on top of WCAG 2.0
  114. MichielBijl
    16:42
    There is a company that does audits and gives out lables/badges, but I'm not sure they are government funded.
  115. cr2a-graphique
    16:42
    you have to paid to had an accessibility stamp of your work ?
  116. MichielBijl
    16:43
    Yes. But to be honest, I haven't seen the label anywhere…
  117. MichielBijl
    16:43
    And further more, I've never really read the webrichtlijnen…
  118. MichielBijl
    16:44
    I'm far more interested in the global rules and guides.
  119. LjWatson
    16:44
    cr2a-graphique are you in France?
  120. cr2a-graphique
    16:45
    I'm far more interested in the global rules and guides. (hell yeah)
  121. cr2a-graphique
    16:45
    yes i am LjWatson
  122. LjWatson
    16:45
    I've been looking at French accessibility law, for a talk I'm giving in Lille on Tuesday. What do you think of RGAA 3?
  123. MichielBijl
    16:45
    @LjWatson new GitHub account?
  124. LjWatson
    16:45
    @MichielBijl No, same account. Why?
  125. MichielBijl
    16:46
    @LjWatson Ah no, never mind, your profile picture is gone…
  126. LjWatson
    16:46
    Oh. It is? Hmm. I didn't do that.
  127. MichielBijl
    16:46
    On GitHub too.
  128. LjWatson
    16:46
    Hmm. I'll take a look. Thanks for letting me know.
  129. MichielBijl
    16:46
    No problem!
  130. cr2a-graphique
    16:48
    What do you think of RGAA 3, me ?
  131. LjWatson
    16:48
    @cr2a-graphique Yes, you :)
  132. jnurthen
    16:49
    my thoughts on RGAA 3 - after a quick look. Just what the world needs - more standards. Can't we all just settle on WCAG2?
  133. LjWatson
    16:50
    @jnurthen +1
  134. MichielBijl
    16:50
    @jnurthen +1
  135. LjWatson
    16:50
    The current EU discussions are painful in the extreme.
  136. cr2a-graphique
    16:50
    i can understand why we need a government paid stamp to be accessible! this are similar like human exploitation, Handicap is not a business, make a corect code is for all a human necessary
  137. LjWatson
    16:51
    @cr2a-graphique accessibility is a human right, yes.
  138. cr2a-graphique
    16:53
    so, and i can say you in france 1 or 2 society can test ure accessibility site or app. This look like hard a mafia system lol
  139. jkva
    16:53
    I have a French client whom I'm trying to convince of that... finally had a breakthrough where I 'get' to implement proper a11y instead of throwing together stuff that sort of works on bleeding edge devices. So glad I won't have to defend proper development practices for a while now.
  140. LjWatson
    16:54
    @cr2a-graphique I agree. A stamp is not a good idea.
  141. cr2a-graphique
    16:54
    thanks a lot @LjWatson
  142. MichielBijl @MichielBijl just took about 70 hours implementing a carousel and dialog system that is accessible 🙈
  143. LjWatson
    16:55
    @jkva that's good if you have persuaded your client to do it properly.
  144. MichielBijl
    16:55
    Which was only possible because my entire schedule is empty; so I can pretty much do whatever…
  145. MichielBijl
    16:55
    Persuading clients is definitely the way to go.
  146. cr2a-graphique
    16:56
    Persuading clients is definitely the way to go, right and y boss ^^
  147. MichielBijl
    16:56
    Ha, that last part is sometimes harder than convincing clients.
  148. MichielBijl
    16:57
    Depends on your boss of course.
  149. cr2a-graphique
    16:57
    my boss prety cool
  150. cr2a-graphique
    16:57
    thanks a lot people. see you on monday, week end time now
  151. MichielBijl
    16:57
    But if the client wants it, I'm pretty sure your boss wants it too ;)
  152. cr2a-graphique
    16:57
    your boss wants it too :wink: -> SURE
  153. jnurthen
    16:57
    @LjWatson I'm a bit out of touch on the European regulations - what is going on at the moment?
  154. jkva
    16:57
    @LjWatson - yeah. The hardest part is to get past the "this takes time and time is money".
  155. MichielBijl
    16:57
    @cr2a-graphique Have a great weekend, don't forget we're open 24/7 ;)
  156. jkva
    16:58
    Cheers @cr2a-graphique :)
  157. cr2a-graphique
    16:58
    yep sure @MichielBijl
  158. jnurthen
    16:58
    btw @MichielBijl & @LjWatson Monday is a US holiday to no APG call.
  159. MichielBijl
    16:58
    Pff, you and your holidays.
  160. jnurthen
    16:58
    kids are off school so I don't have much choice
  161. MichielBijl
    16:58
    I wonder who'd win in a “number of holidays”-off between the US and the Netherlands.
  162. jnurthen
    16:59
    Netherlands
  163. LjWatson
    16:59
    @jnurthen thanks for heads up about Monday.
  164. jnurthen
    16:59
    I'll make sure an email goes out today
  165. jkva
    16:59
    Yeah,US is usually only 2 weeks IIRC
  166. jnurthen
    16:59
    India has us all beat though
  167. LjWatson
    16:59
    The EU is trying to publish a European accessibility act. Supposed to be based on WCAG 2, but of course all the meb
  168. jkva
    16:59
    With all the religious holidays, yeah
  169. LjWatson
    16:59
    member states are desperately trying to remove SC and other requirements.
  170. jnurthen
    16:59
    and the regional ones
  171. jnurthen
    17:00
    i've only heard about people trying to add stuff
  172. jnurthen
    17:00
    .... I also heard something about it being illegal to sell products which are not accessible.
  173. jkva
    17:01
    Client said "We don't have disabled people working here, only disabled people here work in the kitchen". I was baffled. How do you respond to that...
  174. MichielBijl
    17:01
    Record and report :P
  175. LjWatson
    17:01
    The worst of it from the UK point of view, is that it'll completely change our attitude towards accessibility. The Equality Act doesn't cite any guidelines, just requires that something has to be usable by disabled people - so we get less caught up in the box ticking mentality.
  176. LjWatson
    17:02
    Mind you, most of Europe seems to ignore most European law, so perhaps it won't actually matter.
  177. jnurthen
    17:02
    LOL - looking on the bright side ;)
  178. MichielBijl
    17:02
    @LjWatson your profile picture is back!
  179. LjWatson
    17:02
    There is M376 which covers public/gov procurement and accessibility. That's being largely ignored AFAIK.
  180. LjWatson
    17:03
    @MichielBijl I haven't been near my GH account. I'm here via IRC.
  181. MichielBijl
    17:03
    @LjWatson must have been a bug on either GH or my side.
  182. jkva
    17:03
    @MichielBijl No, for me too
  183. LjWatson @LjWatson nods. Technology!
  184. jnurthen
    17:03
    you mean EN 301 549 ?
  185. jnurthen
    17:03
    ;)
  186. jnurthen
    17:03
    (I still call it M376 too)
  187. MichielBijl
    17:04
    @LjWatson regarding european laws: most companies/websites I've worked for/on don't care or include any accessibility…
  188. LjWatson
    17:04
    @jnurthen is that it's official name now? (facepalm)
  189. jnurthen
    17:05
    I think so. That is what a colleague calls it when teaching our "regulations" accessibility class
  190. LjWatson
    17:05
    Lots of companies in the UK do care, but unlike the US the focus isn't so much on "what's the minimum we can do not to be sued".
  191. LjWatson
    17:05
    We're not perfect here by any means, but I think it's a healthier attitude than "conformance, conformance, conformance".
  192. jnurthen
    17:06
    it is an unfortunate consequence of the US legal system. The first thought has to be to limit liability
  193. LjWatson
    17:06
    Yes, exactly.
  194. jnurthen
    17:07
    btw. I wish there was a way of posting a disappearing message here
  195. LjWatson
    17:07
    Disappearing message?
  196. jnurthen
    17:07
    sometimes you don't want things to be logged :)
  197. jnurthen
    17:07
    a bit like /me on IRC
  198. LjWatson
    17:07
    Oh, yes. I don't know if it's possible to scrub things in the Slack/Gitter UI... don't think you can in IRC.
  199. jnurthen
    17:09
    can edit/delete for a bit but that goes away after a while. Also - with the amount of interlinking of messaging systems they would all have to respect it....
  200. LjWatson @LjWatson nods
  201. MichielBijl
    17:11
    @LjWatson not perfect is still better than “Accessibility? Can you eat that?”
  202. LjWatson
    17:11
    It is :)
  203. MichielBijl
    17:12
    @jnurthen this isn't snapchat…
  204. MichielBijl @MichielBijl shudders
  205. jnurthen
    17:14
    yeah - not sure I wanted to go that far. But sometimes I feel constrained by my employer ;). I should probably get an anon github account for those purposes ;)
  206. MichielBijl
    17:14
    Ha
  207. jnurthen
    17:15
    My employer would not be happy about tweets like Steve's earlier
  208. jnurthen
    17:16
    But I guess Mike is cool with it - or just puts up with it anyway!
  209. MichielBijl
    17:16
    Haha, I bet most employers wouldn't.
  210. zakim-robot
    17:16
    [karlgroves] I’d say Mike P’s level of patience is near Saint-level
  211. LjWatson
    17:17
    Mike is cool with the people he brings into the team.
  212. LjWatson
    17:18
    He is also remarkably accepting of people who do things in different ways to himself.
  213. LjWatson
    17:19
    @karlgroves +1 (and then some)
  214. MichielBijl
    17:21
    @karlgroves, sorry for my tweet earlier. I should not be allowed on the internet.
  215. zakim-robot
    17:22
    [karlgroves] lol no worries.
  216. LjWatson @LjWatson finds @karlgroves tweet about WP <p> tags and starts to laugh.
  217. MichielBijl
    17:23
    Ha
  218. zakim-robot
    17:24
    [karlgroves] @michielbijl Inbox 44 on one email, 83 in the other. :disappointed:
  219. MichielBijl
    17:25
    :(
  220. MichielBijl
    17:25
    I get the delay :P
  221. powrsurg
    18:22
    Why is it so hard to find a yellow on yellow combination that's accessible =/
  222. garcialo
    18:30
    What yellows are you trying to use?
  223. garcialo
    18:34
    Seems all yellows are all horrible. =p
  224. jnurthen
    18:34
    FFFF00 on 757500 :)
  225. jnurthen
    18:34
    background is not really very yellow though ;)
  226. garcialo
    18:36
    yeah, I was trying oranges =p
  227. garcialo
    18:36
    yours looks kind of greenish
  228. jnurthen
    18:37
    lets face it yellow on yellow by definition is going to look shitty
  229. garcialo
    18:37
    true fact
  230. powrsurg
    18:38
    Our backgrounds were #fcfce3 and foreground was #c6c603
  231. MichielBijl
    18:43

    lets face it yellow on yellow by definition is going to look shitty

    That's brown on brown

  232. powrsurg
    18:43
    ... how did I just edit my last comment?
  233. garcialo
    18:44
    You pressed up?
  234. jnurthen
    18:44
    ok. was going to reply but thought better of it
  235. jkva
    18:44
    You wrote a regex?
  236. powrsurg
    18:44
    Yes I did
  237. garcialo
    18:44
    You created time travel?
  238. jkva
    18:44
    :P
  239. MichielBijl
    18:44

    You created time travel?

    Ha

  240. powrsurg
    18:45
    :)
  241. powrsurg
    18:46
    Damn, I should have edited that comment to make it clear I created time travel, not wrote a regex =/
  242. powrsurg
    18:54
    Anywho, yeah, yellow on yellow appears really bad. We were able to get our red on red, blue on blue, and green on green looking good.
  243. stevefaulkner
    20:53
    @jnurthen @stevefaulkner is my personal account, Mike knows what I am like, and after almost 10 years at TPG...
  244. stevefaulkner
    20:54
    If you want fruity tweets be sure to check out @patrickhlauke's
  245. jnurthen
    20:54
    @stevefaulkner not sure my employer would make that distinction.... Your tweet did make my wife laugh though!
  246. MichielBijl
    21:03
    @jnurthen just make Oracle hire another James Nurthen and blame it all on him.
  247. stevefaulkner
    21:10
    :+1:
  248. zakim-robot
    21:54
    [marcysutton] scrolls back to see @stevef tweets
  249. stevefaulkner
    21:56
    @marcysutton https://twitter.com/stevefaulkner/status/687968646015102977 was it ;-)