Archive index

A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 4th of February 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 07:04
    Good morning slackers!
  2. jkva
    Feb 04 07:23
    Yet to be seen
  3. jnurthen
    Feb 04 07:35
    Good morning. Enjoying a Nikka Single Malt myself
  4. jkva
    Feb 04 07:36
    Taking @StommePoes' advice I see, Scotch for Breakfast ;)
  5. jnurthen
    Feb 04 07:36
    breakfast of champions
  6. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 07:36
    Oeeeeh, I really like Nikka :o
  7. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 07:36
    I have some from the barrel here
  8. jkva
    Feb 04 07:36
    :sparkles:
  9. jkva
    Feb 04 07:37
    Don't think I've had it. What would you compare it to?
  10. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 07:37
    Guess I could take a sip before going into work, but I won't :P
  11. jnurthen
    Feb 04 07:37
    you really needed to get to TPAC. Michael (I think John Foliot too) took a trip to the distillery
  12. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 07:38
    I will this year Jemas.
  13. jnurthen
    Feb 04 07:38
    well yeah - Lisbon is much closer!
  14. jkva
    Feb 04 07:38
    "W3C Technical Plenary" ?
  15. jnurthen
    Feb 04 07:38
    yeah - was in Saporro this year.... fun times
  16. jkva
    Feb 04 07:39
    "TPAC assesses timber certification systems and advises the Dutch Ministry of Infrastructure and Environment (I&M) on the outcome"
  17. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 07:39
    To Pretty Alcoholic Crafts
  18. jkva
    Feb 04 07:39
    Nice try, google
  19. jnurthen
    Feb 04 07:40
    hope I make it this year.... never any guarantees - all depends on the mood of the higher ups when i ask
  20. jkva
    Feb 04 07:40
    @MichielBijl Would I gain something from TPAC? (Since you've met me)
  21. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 07:40
    I've never been, so uhm…
  22. jkva
    Feb 04 07:40
    No, but you know what it is, and are a W3C author
  23. jnurthen
    Feb 04 07:40
    its a good chance to put names to faces and talk to other WGs
  24. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 07:40
    And it's mostly for W3C working groups etc, but they did invite everyone from the web incubator community group.
  25. jkva
    Feb 04 07:41
    Right
  26. jnurthen
    Feb 04 07:41
    i.e. we had meetings with CSSWG etc.
  27. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 07:41
    So if you sign up for the WICG you can come :P
  28. jkva
    Feb 04 07:41
    I don't see myself becoming involved with the W3C anytime soon, so it'd be mostly networking and partying
  29. jkva
    Feb 04 07:41
    Which is fun ;)
  30. jnurthen
    Feb 04 07:41
    Mostly though the usefulness is in the hallway/lunch/social interactions
  31. jkva
    Feb 04 07:42
    I've heard that about CSUN too
  32. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 07:42
    Hmm, I think CSUN would be much more interesting for someone not involved with the W3C in one way or the other.
  33. jnurthen
    Feb 04 07:42
    @MichielBijl I think that was an exception - certainly not all CGs get to participate
  34. jnurthen
    Feb 04 07:43
    yeah - CSUN is big though - sometimes hard to find people
  35. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 07:43
    No, that's why I said the WICG :P
  36. jnurthen
    Feb 04 07:43
    yeah WICG did this year but no guarantees that will continue
  37. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 07:43
    Well, I have jkva's phone number, so that should work out nicely
  38. jnurthen
    Feb 04 07:43
    Leonie would know more
  39. jnurthen
    Feb 04 07:43
    I can be found in the bar at CSUN :)
  40. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 07:43
    Ha
  41. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 07:45
    I want to talk to whoever planned the VandL and Henny and Ian workshop in the same time slot…
  42. jnurthen
    Feb 04 07:45
    skip VandL IMO
  43. jnurthen
    Feb 04 07:45
    it is just shctick with little content
  44. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 07:46
    I like schtick :)
  45. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 07:46
    That said, I have double interest for most slots…
  46. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 07:46
    Guess I'll see who goes where and what not.
  47. jnurthen
    Feb 04 07:47
    i just try to avoid the sales ones
  48. jnurthen
    Feb 04 07:47
    there are always a few
  49. jnurthen
    Feb 04 07:47
    there will be more as the folks with their own rooms haven't published their schedules yet
  50. jnurthen
    Feb 04 07:48
    adobe, IBM, Deque, Freedom Scientific, MSFT all normally have their own rooms and set their own schedules
  51. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 07:48
    Guess I'll just join you in the bar…
  52. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 07:48
    Right, time for my commute.
  53. jnurthen
    Feb 04 07:49
    time for bed for me
  54. jkva
    Feb 04 07:49
    Good travels, good night
  55. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 08:02
    Prff, I should not write emails to the list after I just woken up. Spelling errors all over -.-
  56. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 08:02
    Good night James.
  57. jkva
    Feb 04 08:14
    Looking at what came by in 2015, actually seems really interesting
  58. jkva
    Feb 04 08:15
    Scribe.perl, huh, TIL
  59. jkva
    Feb 04 08:18
    "Who's this Jeff Jaffe who's name pops up all the t-.... oh."
  60. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 08:40
    He does something with poncho's right?
  61. jkva
    Feb 04 08:40
    Not getting the joke, sorry :-/
  62. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 08:42
    He did a rap battle with PPK at Fronteers last year; they were wearing poncho's (like the rain things).
  63. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 08:42
    Ah crap, different Jeff -.-
  64. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 08:43
    Never mind
  65. MichielBijl @MichielBijl needs more coffee, lots…
  66. jkva
    Feb 04 08:43
    I was seriously adjusting my view of Novell's former CTO, there =D
  67. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 08:43
    You were talking about this guy: https://www.w3.org/People/Jeff/?
  68. jkva
    Feb 04 08:43
    yes
  69. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 08:44
    I was talking about: https://twitter.com/jaffathecake
  70. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 08:44
    Who isn't even called Jeff…
  71. jkva
    Feb 04 08:44
    I was surprised Jeff Jaffe would've come to Fronteers, but then I've never met the guy, so... =)
  72. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 08:45
    His opening talk thing at the W3C symposium was pretty cool.
  73. jkva
    Feb 04 08:45
    I think I met PPK at a fronteers meetup once
  74. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 08:45
    And the following talk about intergalactic internet was non-mozilla awesome :D
  75. jkva
    Feb 04 08:46
    Trying to convince @StommePoes to go to TPAC '16 if the talks are any good
  76. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 08:48
    https://vimeo.com/album/3096607/video/110794988
  77. jkva
    Feb 04 08:50
    Good speaker
  78. jkva
    Feb 04 08:58
    Huh, not a day, a whole week
  79. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 08:59
    Yeap
  80. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 09:00
    Furthermore, I believe TPAC is more for face to face meetings etc. More discussions than talks IIRC.
  81. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 09:02
    Again, I've never been, so don't take my word for it…
  82. jkva
    Feb 04 09:02
    Seriously thinking of going. By that time I should be more informed on this stuff
  83. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 09:11
    Well, you need to have W3C affiliation in some way or form.
  84. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 09:11
    Which is a lot of fun, let me tell you ;)
  85. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 09:12
    More information: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/TPOverview.html
  86. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 09:12
    So come and join the ARIA WG :P
  87. jkva
    Feb 04 09:21
    @MichielBijl Hm. That would feel like fraud
  88. jkva
    Feb 04 09:21
    I guess I have 6 months to get involved
  89. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 09:21
    You can still join the WICG, that would be less of a hassle for all parties involved.
  90. jkva
    Feb 04 09:34
    http://www.techinsider.io/joule-caffeine-bracelet-2016-2
  91. jkva
    Feb 04 09:34
    awwww yeeea
  92. stevefaulkner
    Feb 04 10:48
    joining most WG's is not too much hassle as an 'invited expert' (basically anyone who can be bothered to contribute positively to web standards development)
  93. stevefaulkner
    Feb 04 10:48
    If your company is a w3c member it is only a hassle if your AC Rep makes it so
  94. jkva
    Feb 04 10:49
    @stevefaulkner: Yeah - but I'd need to be able to contribute. So probably something from my perspective as webdev. Other than that I'm freelancer so company membership is not an issue
  95. stevefaulkner
    Feb 04 10:53
    You can join and lurk, better to follow discussions and ONLY get involved when you feel comfortable you something worthwhile to contribute. Good ways to contribute are to file issues/PR's on specs, nothing is too trivial in that respect
  96. MichielBijl @MichielBijl nods
  97. jkva
    Feb 04 10:53
    "Join and lurk", great, I already do that here ;)
  98. stevefaulkner
    Feb 04 10:56
    I was motivated to get involved in HTML at w3c by this http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200705/help_keep_accessibility_and_semantics_in_html/ I was already around in acc related working groups, 9 years on, still going...
  99. stevefaulkner
    Feb 04 10:57
    @jkva it has been a long strange ride http://html5doctor.com/the-ride-to-5/ that I can't seem to get off ;-)
  100. jkva
    Feb 04 11:00
    Heh
  101. jkva
    Feb 04 11:00
    Well, you know what they say about enjoying the ride
  102. stevefaulkner
    Feb 04 11:04
    saddle sores
  103. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:04
    I was a member
  104. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:04
    but I got booted out :P
  105. jkva
    Feb 04 11:04
    You ate all the chocolate?
  106. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:04
    No
  107. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:05
    I got mails saying to update my profile
  108. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:05
    which I did
  109. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:05
    but kept getting mails
  110. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:05
    as if my changes never got anywhere
  111. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:05
    Even though every time I logged in, it did show my updated info
  112. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:05
    then like a month later, a mail went out saying I left.
  113. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:05
    shrug it's not like I did anything though anyway
  114. jkva
    Feb 04 11:05
    weird
  115. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:06
    meh. My boss's boss was all harping on that I was doing stuff with the w3c when I never said I did anything with them, so didn't feel bad telling her I'm not in there anymore.
  116. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:07
    As Doug Schepers said "it's called the working group because... people are expected to, you know, work"
  117. stevefaulkner
    Feb 04 11:07
    vigilance is work
  118. jkva
    Feb 04 11:08
    Ranting about accessibility on forums is work
  119. jkva
    Feb 04 11:08
    Although I don't think the w3c would endorse those
  120. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:10
    bullshit. Ranting is ranting-- that's what I do. But I don't work on specs. The one place I actually gave actual feedback didn't mean anything either.
  121. jkva
    Feb 04 11:11
    At this point I'm a backend/frontend developer with an interest in web development and web standards - unless I start working with the more modern stuff / specs (a11y in the newer APIs for example) I doubt I'd have anything to add. I'll see what the future holds
  122. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:11
    And for the most part, plenty of "big names" do whatever it is I would do if ranting actually did anything. With that one exception of everyone being totally okay with tabpanels hijacking (STEALING) my page-scroll arrows.
  123. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:11
    big names meaning people who, like, write books and do talks and stuff.
  124. stevefaulkner
    Feb 04 11:13

    big names meaning people who, like, write books and do talks and stuff.

    most 'big names' are 'big noting' and don't actuall do any of the boring standards work

  125. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 11:13
    yay boring standards work!
  126. stevefaulkner
    Feb 04 11:14
    well a lot of it is, hard work
  127. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 11:15
    @StommePoes: I've been thinking on a way to circumvent that. Pressing the esc key would defocus, but that is not ideal I guess.
  128. stevefaulkner
    Feb 04 11:17
    For example: ARIA 1.0 Implementation Report https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/1.0/CR/implementation-report
  129. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 11:18
    Or Flexbox spec…
  130. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:18
    Michiel wut?
  131. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:18
    esc for wut
  132. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:18
    And yeah I'm also not interested in the grid spec as I don't really think in grids, better to let griddy-thinking developers play with that
  133. stevefaulkner
    Feb 04 11:20
    It's real easy to talk about stuff...
  134. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:21
    That's about all I do, really.
  135. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:21
    Why I didn't really do anything after losing the "invited expert" bit.
  136. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 11:21
    @StommePoes, if you tabbed into a tab list, you could press esc to blur focus and free your arrow keys to scroll
  137. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 11:21
    (I'm guessing)
  138. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:21
    oh
  139. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 11:22
    Thing is you'd lose your focus position; so that is kind of crap.
  140. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:22
    easier to just say: only hijack left and right
  141. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:22
    I think the reason top/bottom is even in there, is th tab-panel can have vert tabs
  142. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 11:23
    Yeap
  143. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 11:23
    And it's the same with radios
  144. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 11:23
    tab's are essentially radios
  145. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:23
    however panels can still be long so I still don't want down arrow stolen... another idea is being able to move focus into the panel and there regaining scrolling.
  146. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 11:23
    (as in only one can be active)
  147. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:23
    there's a multi-tab out there
  148. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 11:23
    You've shown me, yes.
  149. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:24
    I haven't seen one in the wild though, not sure how those work visually
  150. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 11:24
    And there is debate on making space activate the tab panel thing.
  151. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:24
    yeah but, letting focus do it I think makes it more discoverable
  152. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 11:24
    But that goes against what we see in OS X/Ubuntu/Windows: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRmX-GvFeXI
  153. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:24
    I do the same for dropdown menus
  154. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:25
    well, the reason I do it for dropdown menus is becuase those "tabs" are also links, selecting them needs to mean selecting them.
  155. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:25
    For tab panel that's not a thing/.
  156. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:25
    I'm trying to make a PE-tab panel in react
  157. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:25
    zomg what a steaming pile.
  158. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:26
    Basically, to do PE anything in react means copying innerHTML into react so there's a react-component version of the thing. Bleh.
  159. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:26
    React called this dangerouslyUnsafe
  160. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:26
    that's the name of the method.
  161. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:26
    For good reason.
  162. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:27
    So, no me gusta.
  163. jkva
    Feb 04 11:27
    I don't think React is supposed to be PE-friendly
  164. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:27
    I can't see this flying.
  165. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:27
    No, it's not.
  166. jkva
    Feb 04 11:27
    It's Fuck You I've Got Mine web development
  167. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:27
    So it basically guarantees anything one builds in React, if any little thing breaks the JS or stops it from completely loading, the whole page (if it's all React) is Nothing.
  168. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:27
    like the goggles
  169. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:27
    they do nossing.
  170. jkva
    Feb 04 11:28
    It's the future of web development, don't you see
  171. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:28
    I know.
  172. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:28
    I need to go to electronics school and get out of this shit.
  173. jkva
    Feb 04 11:28
    I was sarcastic
  174. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:29
    I wasn't, it IS the future of web development.
  175. StommePoes
    Feb 04 11:30
    With a few crusty whiners insisting we remain back in the dark ages of "device agnostic"
  176. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 11:34
    Prrff, everyone has the latest 900£ phone right?
  177. jkva
    Feb 04 11:35
    Vive la resistance!
  178. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 11:51
    There should be an universal currency sign.
  179. jkva
    Feb 04 11:54
    $? /s
  180. jkva
    Feb 04 11:56
    ¤
  181. jkva
    Feb 04 11:56
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_sign_(typography)
  182. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 12:01
    S/There should be/I should know there is/
  183. jkva
    Feb 04 12:02
    It looks like a very small turtle
  184. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 12:03
    A headless turtle, hmmm.
  185. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 12:34
    ¤900 phone seems odd…
  186. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 12:35
    s/seems/looks/
  187. jkva
    Feb 04 12:39
    Probably because we're not used to the sign
  188. jkva
    Feb 04 12:39
    Only 900 turtles!
  189. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 13:18
    I need to work on my reading list -.- https://github.com/MichielBijl/notes/blob/master/README.md
  190. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 13:18
    Soooo much to read…
  191. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 13:26
    @jkva, 900 turtles isn't that bad I guess :)
  192. powrsurg
    Feb 04 14:50
    didn't the react (or angular?) documentation break not to long ago due to a JS error?
  193. jkva
    Feb 04 14:50
    Yeah
  194. jkva
    Feb 04 14:51
    I vaguely remember that
  195. powrsurg
    Feb 04 14:51
    Stuff like that is why I try to use Vanilla JS wherever I can
  196. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 14:52
    Does anyone have documentation on how to make a flowchart accessible?
  197. powrsurg
    Feb 04 14:52
    Sadly we're Drupal-based so we can't not include jQuery so it's not like I'm doing myself any favors ... but still
  198. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 14:52
    I imagine just lists with internal links to the options?
  199. powrsurg
    Feb 04 14:52
    you would think, but I haven't seen such a list ...
  200. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 14:52
    Time someone made one then :P
  201. MichielBijl @MichielBijl puts it on his todo list
  202. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 15:50
    This looks pretty good: http://accessibility.psu.edu/images/flowcharts/
  203. ascott1
    Feb 04 16:37
    @powrsurg it looks like it was the angular documentation site angular/angular.js#12960 whoops!
  204. zakim-robot
    Feb 04 16:44
    [marcysutton] ^^ That sounded server/sync related, not a JS architecture issue
  205. zakim-robot
    Feb 04 16:46
    [marcysutton] @stommepoes that is super interesting about React + PE though. I’m researching that topic right now, and every React-server example I find is deprecated. If anyone has a good resource on isomorphic React or Ember I’d love to try it out :smile:
  206. zakim-robot
    Feb 04 16:48
    [marcysutton] Also re: standards….I need to start participating, but I also want to keep my life low-stress and drama free. Those two things don’t seem like they go together.
  207. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 16:50
    Depends on how much mailing lists you bother to read :P
  208. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 16:51
    No, I think it depends more on the WG members and how those are able to work together.
  209. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 16:51
    I've had no stress at all from the APA/ARIA WG's.
  210. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 16:51
    Those are relatively small though (10-20 active members).
  211. zakim-robot
    Feb 04 16:51
    [marcysutton] That is good to hear! Teaching takes up most of my free time, so contributions must be time well spent.
  212. zakim-robot
    Feb 04 16:52
    [marcysutton] Unfortunately HTML is what I’m interested in…and that seems to have the strongest personalities.
  213. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 16:52
    I tried joining the www-style list, but that just stressed me out, too much information/topics.
  214. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 16:52
    That sounds about right :(
  215. zakim-robot
    Feb 04 16:53
    [marcysutton] ARIA is very interesting too, but if we could get more stuff to be built-in instead of bolt-on that would be AWESOME
  216. zakim-robot
    Feb 04 16:53
    [marcysutton] decides to suck it up and start contributing
  217. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 16:55
    I agree, more stuff needs to be in HTML. And ARIA should reflect changes/removals from the HTML spec.
  218. stevefaulkner
    Feb 04 16:55
    @marcysutton, strong personalites are one thing, arrogant assholes are another
  219. stevefaulkner
    Feb 04 16:56
    @marcysutton as you are now a deuqeian get your AC rep to sugn you up to the web platforms working group - lots of fun and APIs
  220. garcialo
    Feb 04 16:56
    @stevefaulkner That's Dequestrian
  221. zakim-robot
    Feb 04 16:56
    [marcysutton] Yeah :disappointed: “strong personalities” = sugar coating it
  222. MichielBijl @MichielBijl wants in on the wpwg, looks like fun :)
  223. MichielBijl @MichielBijl doesn't have a AC rep
  224. zakim-robot
    Feb 04 16:57
    [marcysutton] When I asked my last manager about joining I was definitely discouraged. I’ll see if I can find a more productive way to contribute
  225. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 16:57
    And I can't use the signup form :(
  226. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 16:58
    “Only AC Representative, selected Invited Experts and Staff Contacts can use this form to join or leave a group ; since you're not logged as any of those, you won't be allowed to submit this form. Additional instructions for joining this group are available.”
  227. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 16:59
    But I'll have to send an e-mail to someone about that.
  228. stevefaulkner
    Feb 04 16:59
    joining the wpwg is easy, ask leonie
  229. MichielBijl @MichielBijl asks @LjWatson
  230. zakim-robot
    Feb 04 16:59
    [ryoia] hey all, got a question on role="alert". i have the following structure:
    <div class"..." aria-live="assertive" aria-atomic="true"> <textarea aria-describedby="description">...</textarea> <label>...</label> <div id="description"><p role="alert"></p></div> </div>
    JAWS speaks the error message inside of <p> on firefox, but not on ie10...
  231. stevefaulkner
    Feb 04 17:00

    When I asked my last manager about joining I was definitely discouraged. I’ll see if I >can find a more productive way to contribute

    new day new manager...

  232. zakim-robot
    Feb 04 17:01
    [marcysutton] yep :
  233. stevefaulkner
    Feb 04 17:12
    @ryoia take a look at https://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2012/06/html5-accessibility-chops-aria-rolealert-browser-support/ its a few years old now but goes through some issues with role=alert
  234. zakim-robot
    Feb 04 17:12
    [ryoia] thanks stevefaulkner!
  235. johnfoliot
    Feb 04 17:21
    @marcysutton Deque's W3C AC rep wears a cowboy hat...
  236. zakim-robot
    Feb 04 17:21
    [marcysutton] lol we were supposed to have that conversation but a snowstorm got in the way….
  237. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 17:26
    And has a fancy moustache…
  238. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 17:27
    Sorry if that is not the proper name, I only know moustache and beard…
  239. jkva
    Feb 04 17:37
    soup-strainer
  240. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 17:58
    Re accessible flowcharts, this still needs work, but it's a good start I feel, anyone with feedback? http://dir.rawr.eu/flowchart.html
  241. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 17:59
    List items need tabindex=-1 for WebKit/Blink
  242. jkva
    Feb 04 18:03
    Not sure how to feel about https://theaccessibleworld.herokuapp.com/ - without JS the video doesn't work and the menu becomes unreadable because of white text on grey background
  243. jkva
    Feb 04 18:04
    Ah, not video, just huge animated jpeg
  244. jkva
    Feb 04 18:05
    Why do I need to download all that for a single page? Why is everything moving? Tastes differ I guess
  245. jkva
    Feb 04 18:09
    Schedule doesn't work without JS :-/
  246. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 18:09
    Jebus
  247. jkva
    Feb 04 18:09
    Yeah
  248. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 18:09
    And they hijack scroll
  249. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 18:10
    We can complain to http://evoxlabs.org/
  250. jkva
    Feb 04 18:10
    It's basically an information page, yet loads a shitload of JS and something called 'app.js' because it's an app. Of course.
  251. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 18:10
    They disable text selection (colours).
  252. MichielBijl @MichielBijl rage quits
  253. jkva
    Feb 04 18:11
    I gotta show @stommepoes this :P I think Alanis Morissette made a song about this site
  254. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 18:12
    Ha
  255. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 18:12
    Be sure to hide any sharp objects ;)
  256. jkva
    Feb 04 18:12
    @MichielBijl Can you explain to me how scroll is hijacked?
  257. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 18:13
    Uhm, sure, they disable your normal scroll, and use JavaScript to “improve” it.
  258. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 18:13
    So they use JS to scroll the page…
  259. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 18:14
    Which always annoys me; they try to sort of copy the inertia thing from Apple, but always fail…
  260. StommePoes
    Feb 04 18:19
    @marcySutton hey well if I get my respsonsive tabpanel thing actually working, and shown around to some people who know React better, I can shoot it your way to play with.
  261. StommePoes
    Feb 04 18:19
    It's not finished yet though.
  262. jkva
    Feb 04 18:22
    https://twitter.com/TAWConf/status/695311331407306752
  263. jkva
    Feb 04 18:22
    hahaha
  264. jkva
    Feb 04 18:23
    So far it seems an internal wankfest for evoxlabs
  265. StommePoes
    Feb 04 18:26
    wanketty-wank! (don't wank back)
  266. jkva
    Feb 04 18:30
    3.7MB, wow
  267. jkva
    Feb 04 18:53
    @MichielBijl ++ for asking them about a11y tactfully
  268. jnurthen
    Feb 04 19:02
    Other than the size what is the problem JS? And why is that an accessibility issue and not just a consuming resources issue?
  269. jkva
    Feb 04 19:02
    @jnurthen: It's not. The size bothers me personally.
  270. jnurthen
    Feb 04 19:04
    ok - but I find it muddies the accessibility waters when people use accessibility as a reason not to have JS.... back to the dark days of WCAG1
  271. jkva
    Feb 04 19:04
    That a simple 1-page site doesn't work without JS, that's just bad.
  272. jkva
    Feb 04 19:04
    Means the site wasn't built from the beginning with a11y in mind, if you ask me
  273. jnurthen
    Feb 04 19:05
    i do not make that correlation.
  274. jnurthen
    Feb 04 19:05
    (I haven't looked at the site in question)
  275. jkva
    Feb 04 19:06
    @jnurthen That's fine. Something simple as a 3-page menu should work on the simplest of devices. Otherwise what's the point
  276. jkva
    Feb 04 19:07
    "You don't have JS? Oh well, you don't get to see the schedule then"...why?
  277. jkva
    Feb 04 19:07
    Maybe I'm wrong. I'm quite new to this. People in glass houses and all.
  278. jnurthen
    Feb 04 19:08
    oh don't get me wrong. If i had the site I would want as many people/search engines etc. to get it as possible
  279. jnurthen
    Feb 04 19:08
    but i don't see how it impacts users with disabilities more than any other users
  280. jnurthen
    Feb 04 19:08
    and as such it is not an accessibility issue IMO
  281. jnurthen
    Feb 04 19:09
    I still have to fight this fight with people saying WCAG1 requires things to work without CSS and JS so I don't like to see it perpetuated
  282. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:10
    I just explained to jkva that you are of the "other" (and bigger) accessibility camp
  283. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:10
    There are two, somewhat opposing camps
  284. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:10
    There are people like me, how lump access with all sorts of things, in the TBL sense plus extra attention to those with physical disabilities due to civil rights etc
  285. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:11
    the other group is mostly only about those with physical disabilities meaning anything with the term "accessible" because this group is so impacted and it's a civil rights issue
  286. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:11
    I've seen lots of people confused
  287. jnurthen
    Feb 04 19:12
    I understand what you are saying.
  288. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:12
    So progressive enhancement, situations that people can't fix like poverty, etc, will generally not be part of that umbrella term "accessibility" in the bigger/main group.
  289. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:12
    while jkva is trying to do the TBL thing: work on all/most/ as many as reasonably posisble devices, etc
  290. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:12
    and including disability among that.
  291. jnurthen
    Feb 04 19:12
    in the ideal world i would support that... i can't justify things like that to people though as they can (and do) set baseline requirements to use things
  292. jnurthen
    Feb 04 19:13
    I mean I would like everything to work on every browser but i certainly don't expect any developer to test on IE6 any more
  293. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:13
    All developers have to draw a line.
  294. jkva
    Feb 04 19:13
    Sure.
  295. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:13
    I feel progressive enhancement makes that easier
  296. jnurthen
    Feb 04 19:13
    yeah - we may draw it higher than some ;)
  297. jkva
    Feb 04 19:14
    But! In this page's case, I don't see any reason why I would not at least get the information about the conference, //which is the whole raison d'etre of the page// in an older device
  298. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:14
    And I really can't call a 500MB page containing pretty much just static text as "accessible" even if technically it can work with a screen reader user (who is on fibre and the latest mac)
  299. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:14
    But you wouldn't label it as "inaccessible to the disabled" because they're not the ones being singled out.
  300. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:15
    A plain text page has pretty much zero excuse not to be readable by me in mutt. Other than "ooh but shiny." But not because mutt or lynx users tend to be disabled. Instead, they tend to be sysadmins.
  301. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:16
    Also, my camp can be labeled sometimes as #allLivesMatter which is a slap in the face to those working for specifically the disabled.
  302. jnurthen
    Feb 04 19:16
    oh - i agree with you (in principle). But again - I don't see it as an "accessibility" thing - more of a "doh - I want as many people to see my stuff as possible" thing
  303. jkva
    Feb 04 19:16
    I can see your point.
  304. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:16
    Yeah, it's just that I include more into "access." But for some that kinda pollutes the meaning.
  305. jnurthen
    Feb 04 19:17
    yeah - I understand where you are coming from but that dual meaning does sometime make my life harder :)
  306. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:17
    Yeah esp if you're the evangelist
  307. jnurthen
    Feb 04 19:17
    like when I get accessibility bugs logged when the login screen is broken ;)
  308. jnurthen
    Feb 04 19:17
    ..... but I can't access it
  309. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:18
    Me, I'm already labelled the "accessibility developer" of the team, and I'm the one pushing the PE and lowest-common-denominator in my group-- BUT! My company claims it wants to serve the world. So I have the excuse
  310. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:18
    The end result is the same. And nobody wants that end result.
  311. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:18
    And in the idea of fairness- YOU can't fix the problem.
  312. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:18
    You're locked out, through no fault of your own.
  313. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:19
    And that's probably where I came in in the first place-- frustration and the idea of unfairness
  314. jnurthen
    Feb 04 19:19
    .... but I can't fix it wither :)
  315. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:19
    rather than that my eyesight might be totally bleh in 10 years
  316. jkva
    Feb 04 19:19
    "You have an old browser? Go get your friend with a newer browser to read it for you." "You can't read? Go get your sighted friend to read it to you." . Is this a false equation?
  317. jnurthen
    Feb 04 19:20
    the difference is that users can upgrade their browsers (indeed they do it for you these days)
  318. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:20
    Also. Like a blind sysadmin who can't do HIS job because someone's set up a program that won't work with a screen reader. The frustration isn't just the access, it's the "no you can't do your job" the "no you can't do your task" the "no you can't" and all you can do is sit there and scream.
  319. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:20
    Or lose hair
  320. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:20
    as I do
  321. jkva
    Feb 04 19:20
    Good point @jnurthen.
  322. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:20
    jnurthen oh no
  323. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:20
    I fight that
  324. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:20
    so bad
  325. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:20
    I'll tell you why
  326. jkva
    Feb 04 19:20
    Developing countries @stommepoes?
  327. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:20
    first of all, with the disabled-only-- AT can often set the user's browser choices
  328. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:20
    for example
  329. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:20
    I was stuck at IE9
  330. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:20
    until I shelled out about 90 euros for the ZoomText upgrade
  331. jkva
    Feb 04 19:20
    Good sysadmins are bald. It's the Perl exposure.
  332. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:21
    lucky me, I ahve 90 euros laying aroudn for that
  333. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:21
    and poverty, or AT, should NOT punish a user (again, within the reasonable reasons of what does the dev support)
  334. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:21
    Poverty also means you can't "just upgrade". You try to get a job? You go to the school or library
  335. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:21
    where you have zero privs
  336. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:21
    Or it's a device
  337. jkva
    Feb 04 19:22
    Sure. But that is a slippery slope. What if I run Mosaic on a 500 baud modem with Windows 3.11
  338. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:22
    you gotta buy a whole new OS (get IE8 up to 11 by going from XP to 7) or device (when your android won't update anymore)
  339. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:22
    and that also locks people out and puts them in the same position: instead of a blink asking a sighted friend to do something for them, a poor person asks a wealthier friend to do something.
  340. jkva
    Feb 04 19:22
    As devs we decide what's 'reasonable' most of the time
  341. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:22
    Or the bosses decide it.
  342. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:22
    CEOs only want to support latest and greatest.
  343. jnurthen
    Feb 04 19:23
    CEOs want to support whatever will get them the most cash for the smallest outlay
  344. jkva
    Feb 04 19:23
    Risk mgmt
  345. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:23
    Yeah, back when mobile started becoming a thing, it was "mobile? that means an iPhone app"
  346. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:23
    for a lot of palces.
  347. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:23
    places.
  348. jkva
    Feb 04 19:26
    Thanks for the nice discussion @jnurthen, @StommePoes
  349. jnurthen
    Feb 04 19:27
    @StommePoes I have a zoomtext question
  350. jnurthen
    Feb 04 19:27
    (although i have a meeting I am hosting in 3 mins)
  351. jnurthen
    Feb 04 19:28
    does ZoomText move focus to a JS modal dialog when it comes up (assuming browser focus moves to the dialog)?
  352. jnurthen
    Feb 04 19:29
    (this all relates to a discussion on a W3C list where I am saying opening a dialog when checking a checkbox is a really bad thing to do)
  353. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:31
    my settings tend to move the screen wherever the focus is
  354. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:31
    but I can test one if you have one handy
  355. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:31
    because yeah if my little screen doesn't move, I won't know anything opened anywhere.
  356. jnurthen
    Feb 04 19:31
    can i ping you after my meeting
  357. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:32
    ok, just send me a URL or a demo or something
  358. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:32
    I'll have to switch OSes, this is a dual-boot
  359. jnurthen
    Feb 04 19:32
    ah - if a problem no worries
  360. jnurthen
    Feb 04 19:32
    not my fight!
  361. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:33
    nope no problem
  362. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:33
    We were thinking of going for a walk, how long's your meeting?
  363. StommePoes
    Feb 04 19:35
    Just throw it into this chat, I'll see it when I'm back :)
  364. MichielBijl
    Feb 04 19:41
    @jnurthen the website is inaccessible without JS (low contrast colours, no scrolling)
  365. jnurthen
    Feb 04 19:57
    i'd prefer to say the website can't be accessed without JS :)
  366. jnurthen
    Feb 04 19:57
    or can't be used rather than muddying the accessibility waters
  367. jnurthen
    Feb 04 19:58
    @StommePoes do you use facebook - cause the website was facebook messenger
  368. jnurthen
    Feb 04 19:59
    www.messenger.com - the "mute notifications" checkbox in particular
  369. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:03
    I don't use fb
  370. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:04
    actually I do have an account I could use, but lemme switch OSes
  371. jnurthen
    Feb 04 21:08
    thanks...it would give an additional data point
  372. ShaneQful
    Feb 04 21:10

    Hi, I'm implementing a tab widget does anyone know why the aria tab role can't be used with the button element ?
    https://www.w3.org/TR/html-aria/#docconformance

    I'd prefer not to change to links if I don't have to

  373. jnurthen
    Feb 04 21:11
    log a bug.... that doesn't seem right does it @stevefaulkner
  374. jnurthen
    Feb 04 21:12
    https://github.com/w3c/html-aria/issues
  375. ShaneQful
    Feb 04 21:15
    Will do
  376. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:15
    I was going to use buttons with role-tab for my React component
  377. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:16
    so jnurthen I tested and yeah, the screen moves with focus
  378. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:16
    but I also took 2 screenshots for you at 5x mag
  379. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:16
    if I can figure out how to get those online with windows
  380. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:16
    can images be loaded directly into gitter?
  381. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:17
    pre_click.png
  382. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:17
    zomg
  383. zakim-robot
    Feb 04 21:17
    [magnus.haugsand] Maybe use of links instead of buttons is the right approach? Look at this example: https://github.com/jonathantneal/posthtml-aria-tabs
  384. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:17
    post_click.png
  385. jnurthen
    Feb 04 21:18
    ah - so you don't immediately see that there is a dialog... was it clear to you what was going on?
  386. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:18
    with React, while I start with a list, making nested components is a pain in the butt, and then a list means adding the li as component and then removing them with role-presentation. Bleh. Plus, they don't navigate anymore as tabs
  387. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:18
    jnurthen: when my focus gets moved like that after clicking something, I know to explore that area
  388. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:19
    and as soon as you see more of it, it becomes contextually clear
  389. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:19
    but that seems like a per-user thing
  390. ShaneQful
    Feb 04 21:19
    I had it implemented with buttons and it worked great in both keyboard and screenreader, it was the automated checker which told me I was wrong so wanted to check it. I'm going to change it to links anyway to pass the tests.
  391. jnurthen
    Feb 04 21:19
    It is my contention that WCAG would fail this as you are not allowed to move focus on a change of an input component
  392. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:19
    You'd prolly have to usertest with regular zoom users
  393. jnurthen
    Feb 04 21:20
    but I think the real reason this is a WCAG failure is for cognitive disabilities not for low vision.
  394. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:20
    well but if you clicked on a select and the dropdown appears underneath it, you could argue these are very similar except the popup is physically further away
  395. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:20
    yeah agreed, I would say a low-vision/mag user with cog issues would most likely have trouble with this
  396. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:20
    actually, I shoudl have used twitter as an example
  397. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:20
    because the popup opens right in the middle
  398. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:20
    if you don't see the edges, you don't necessarily realise it's a "modal" style popup
  399. jnurthen
    Feb 04 21:21
    no - a select control always has a dropdown, a checkbox doesn't normally move focus when you activate it
  400. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:21
    with facebook, where the focussed element is, it looks like one.
  401. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:21
    hm, true.
  402. jnurthen
    Feb 04 21:22
    to me it is about predictability.... IMO they should change to a button - or if they don't at least change the label to Mute notifications... with the elippsis being the conventional way of indicating that there will be a dialog (but even this IMO is pushing it)
  403. zakim-robot
    Feb 04 21:22
    [majornista] wai-aria
  404. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:23
    although the checkbox makes sense with the choice of the question
  405. jnurthen
    Feb 04 21:23
    I wouldn't let one of our products do this and claim they met 3.2.2 but I guess if they want to it is up to them
  406. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:23
    it's just that, instead of merely choosing it, it brings up more options-- HOW do you want to mute.
  407. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:24
    I wonder if it would make more cog sense to have, under the checkbox, a set of radios/new fieldset appear underneath asking the same thing
  408. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:24
    instead of a modal
  409. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:24
    that's not uncommon in forms, answering some question causing more to load.
  410. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:24
    plus the change happens close to the action
  411. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:24
    though nothing is close enough with 5x mag :P
  412. jnurthen
    Feb 04 21:25
    yeah - there are tons of UI choices. I guess the answer is - what they have isn't that bad - and actually is pretty good for a lot of users. There are probably bigger battles to fight
  413. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:31
    What I generally say about stuff happening elsewhere on the page is, with mag or partial vision, that either the new thing should be close to the user action, OR have something explanatory come near the user action (like when someone clicked our Add To Cart, right underneath came "added to cart" text, while in the upper-right the shopping cart would get updated.
  414. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:31
    also the button itself would get disabled, but lots of shops don't do that)
  415. jnurthen
    Feb 04 21:33
    yeah - those add to cart buttons are sometimes tricky even without magnification
  416. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:33
    indeed.
  417. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:34
    despite our company (my former) not giving shits about a11y, that particular setup I think they did as well as one can.
  418. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:34
    Hm a few other notes about the FB page:
  419. jnurthen
    Feb 04 21:35
    ping @jessebeach if you want to comment about FB :)
  420. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:35
    I clicked on the checkbox a few times. I always got my focus moved (of course) but the position on the page wasn't always the same as it depends on where the checkbox was on my page (how scrolled up or down I was when clicking). and if I changed browser focus (switched to ZT, the Paint, then back to IE) my focus was back on a textarea that's intially focussed on the page, type message.
  421. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:37
    ok, back to Linux, this is devestating
  422. jnurthen
    Feb 04 21:38
    I'm sure @jessebeach will appreciate the notes
  423. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:39
    Oh and while I'm in Windows, I had taken another pic, this one's funny
  424. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:39
    teens.png
  425. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:39
    Dragon :P
  426. jnurthen
    Feb 04 21:40
    I never noticed that on Dragon
  427. jnurthen
    Feb 04 21:40
    i wonder what that does?
  428. jkva
    Feb 04 21:41
    famous last words
  429. jkva
    Feb 04 21:41
    I think it just rolls its eyes at you
  430. jnurthen
    Feb 04 21:41
    LOL
  431. jnurthen
    Feb 04 21:42
    maybe it knows to ignore every like word like in the sentence
  432. jkva
    Feb 04 21:42
    "facebook.com? oh em gee, you are so totally lame"
  433. jkva
    Feb 04 21:43
    Wait, I'm making fun of teens? Am I...old? Is that...a lawn?
  434. jnurthen
    Feb 04 21:44
    :)
  435. jkva
    Feb 04 21:45
    And now.... some glenrothes
  436. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:46
    damn kids
  437. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:46
    always on the lawn
  438. jnurthen
    Feb 04 21:46
    a bit old but - http://www.synapseadaptive.com/joel/natspeakaforateens.htm
  439. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:46
    why
  440. jnurthen
    Feb 04 21:47
    In addition to changed acoustics, the Student models in NatSpeak for Teens also includes a vocabulary more appropriate to teenage children. For example, the vocabulary in NatSpeak for Teens include the words "Spice Girls" and Mesopotamia". Those words are not usually active in the standard adult vocabularies.
  441. jnurthen
    Feb 04 21:48
    I use the word Mesopotamia all the time
  442. jkva
    Feb 04 21:50
    Yeah, peculiar example
  443. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:50
    Honestly, I probably said that word more often back when I was in school.
  444. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:51
    Exoskeletons!
  445. jnurthen
    Feb 04 21:51
    I can honestly say I have never uttered that word in my life
  446. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:57
    Jon Metz sent me this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nIUcRJX9-o&feature=youtu.be
  447. StommePoes
    Feb 04 21:57
    teens talk
  448. TzviyaSiegman
    Feb 04 22:12
    do any of you deal with this in academic setting?
  449. TzviyaSiegman
    Feb 04 22:13
    there's a lot of focus on tools for K-20 education. A lot of what I work on is used in graduate and post-graduate settings
  450. jnurthen
    Feb 04 22:15
    hi @TzviyaSiegman
  451. TzviyaSiegman
    Feb 04 22:16
    hi @jnurthen!
  452. zakim-robot
    Feb 04 22:20
    [jessebeach] @StommePoes @jnurthen, ya totally agree. That checkbox should be a button that toggles aria-pressed and indicates movement into a dialog.
  453. zakim-robot
    Feb 04 22:20
    [jessebeach] logging a ticket with the team...
  454. jnurthen
    Feb 04 22:21
    @jessebeach - I'd talk to Matt first.... He likes it as is
  455. stevefaulkner
    Feb 04 22:37

    Don't want to be a downer, but doesn't a checkbox that opens a dialog fail

    "3.2.2 On Input: Changing the setting of any user interface component does not automatically cause a change of context unless the user has been advised of the behavior before using the component. (Level A)"
    https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#consistent-behavior-unpredictable-change

  456. zakim-robot
    Feb 04 22:41
    [karlgroves] +1
  457. jnurthen
    Feb 04 22:54
    yes....
  458. jnurthen
    Feb 04 22:56
    @stevefaulkner that is exactly what I said on the public-aria thread
  459. stevefaulkner
    Feb 04 22:57
    @jnurthen have skimmed, what was the response there?
  460. jnurthen
    Feb 04 22:57
    disagreement ;)
  461. stevefaulkner
    Feb 04 22:57
    Fuck WCAG?
  462. jnurthen
    Feb 04 22:57
    if you want to put it that way you can ;)
  463. garcialo
    Feb 04 22:57
    "Fuck WCAG" -@stevefaulkner-
  464. stevefaulkner
    Feb 04 22:58
    just seems like a silly idea,
  465. stevefaulkner
    Feb 04 23:00
    WCAG can be useful sometimes, to win arguments with people who believe in the "Word of the WAI"
  466. garcialo
    Feb 04 23:01
    Oh, I love me some WCAG
  467. jnurthen
    Feb 04 23:01
    also very handy when talking to people who don't have a clue about accessibility
  468. garcialo
    Feb 04 23:02
    "You see the big unwieldy document? I kind of understand it a bit."
  469. stevefaulkner
    Feb 04 23:02
    or acronyms