A11y Slacker archive 2016-02-05

zakim-robot
Feb 05 05:35

[jessebeach] @jnurthen, I put him on the ticket. We can debate it there :simple_smile:
MichielBijl
Feb 05 07:34

Today feels like a good day :)
jkva
Feb 05 07:48

I wonder why =)
jkva
Feb 05 07:58

I remember showing a non-Dutch my country. "What's that?" "That's a parking spot for invalids." ("invalide" -> Dutch for disabled/physically handicapped, I translated literally without thinking). They looked at me incredulously. And it's weird when you think about it. Although looking at Dutch wiki there are various terms to describe it.
MichielBijl
Feb 05 08:13

Oxford Dictionary: “A person made weak or disabled by illness or injury.”
MichielBijl
Feb 05 08:13

That's not that far off :)
MichielBijl
Feb 05 08:14

Interesting statistic, there are more people with an iPhone 5S, than there are people with either of the iPhone 6S models combined…
jkva
Feb 05 08:15

I've got a 6 for sale if anyone's interested ;)
MichielBijl @MichielBijl still loves his 5
jkva
Feb 05 08:19

I couldn't get used to Apple. Went backt to android, got a Moto style
jkva
Feb 05 08:19

<3 <3
jkva
Feb 05 09:28

Hi all. Client is asking me to show inputs in a form only when hovering over them (so hide them entirely unless the user can magically find them by hovering). Which SC is this failing? I need to argue my point.
jkva
Feb 05 09:28

I'll go look at the WCAG
jkva
Feb 05 09:29

WebAIM guideline 1.1 looks good
StommePoes
Feb 05 09:29

This "play the game of shoot the monkey and oh yeah, find the inputs" thing is pure evil
jkva
Feb 05 09:29

Yeah it's terrible
StommePoes
Feb 05 09:30

Evil like pits with spikes at the bottom
jkva
Feb 05 09:30

I really didn't like "People use keyboards?!" when I told them their site is unusable by keyboard. Getting through is like pulling teeth
StommePoes
Feb 05 09:30

hand-rubbing, cat-petting, bottom of a lair deep within a volcano with secret lab and henchmen evil
StommePoes
Feb 05 09:30

Again, a big problem is, nobody sees disabled people. Or even people not like them.
jkva
Feb 05 09:31

They're not evil. they simply don't know. All I can do is refuse and educate.
StommePoes
Feb 05 09:31

They're all hidden away in bedrooms awaiting pity visits, instead of being out and about Doing Daily Things.
StommePoes
Feb 05 09:31

So they become mythical.
StommePoes
Feb 05 09:31

And clients don't believe they exist.
StommePoes
Feb 05 09:31

Frustrating. Hair-losing.
jkva
Feb 05 09:32

What bugs me most is that this client is in education
jkva
Feb 05 09:32

I love my pity visits
jkva
Feb 05 09:32

As long as they bring scotch
pkra
Feb 05 09:32

Hey everyone. It's been too long.
jkva
Feb 05 09:33

Heya @pkra. You're just in time for today's 10 minutes of hate
pkra
Feb 05 09:33

Read this just now. Any thoughts?

I think pragmatic screenreader users have their own tools to find hyperlinks.
So it should be no problem to ignore hyperlinks from tabbing order
and to tab only through landscapes (navbar items, book frame, left/right buttons, ...)
MichielBijl
Feb 05 09:33

@jkva? 3.2.1 On Focus: When any component receives focus, it does not initiate a change of context. (Level A)
pkra
Feb 05 09:33

@jkva hah!
jkva
Feb 05 09:34

@michielbijl: Not sure if that applies? Client wants to only render input on hover (as in, only show labels). Am I misunderstanding you?
MichielBijl
Feb 05 09:34

Ah
MichielBijl
Feb 05 09:35

How does that work? Won't the layout flip out?
jkva
Feb 05 09:35

I'm not sure what you mean
jkva
Feb 05 09:35

I'll make a recording =)
MichielBijl
Feb 05 09:35

Cool
MichielBijl
Feb 05 09:36

And also: 2.1.1 Keyboard: All functionality of the content is operable through a keyboard interface without requiring specific timings for individual keystrokes, except where the underlying function requires input that depends on the path of the user's movement and not just the endpoints. (Level A)
MichielBijl
Feb 05 09:36

Which makes 3.2.1 apply too I guess
MichielBijl
Feb 05 09:37

You cannot focus a label, you can only focus the input.
MichielBijl
Feb 05 09:37

So on focus the context changes (read this text -> fill in this form)
MichielBijl
Feb 05 09:38

But I'm no WCAG expert.
MichielBijl
Feb 05 09:38

If you have some time, the total thing is only 700 pages longs :P
jkva
Feb 05 09:42

This message was deleted
jkva
Feb 05 09:44

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/15931775/form.mp4
jkva
Feb 05 09:44

@MichielBijl : see above. I'm not a master at making videos yet =D
MichielBijl
Feb 05 09:45

So label is to the left, input only shows on hover?
jkva
Feb 05 09:45

Yep
jkva
Feb 05 09:45

derp derp
MichielBijl
Feb 05 09:46

I still think 3.2.1 is your best bet, you got no context to input field.
MichielBijl
Feb 05 09:46

But maybe someone else has some better reasoning/advice for you :)
jkva
Feb 05 09:47

Thanks =)
pkra
Feb 05 10:23

Here's a new demo from our math tool. Listen to boring repetition of things working quite well now https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GSgTjorewQ
pkra
Feb 05 10:24

god that embed is huge.
pkra
Feb 05 10:24

Anyway, feedback is very welcome!
jkva
Feb 05 10:27

That's a lot of tabs!
jkva
Feb 05 11:14

Client said "Huh. I had never thought of that. You're absolutely right, don't hide the inputs." w00t! a11y wins
pkra
Feb 05 11:19

@jkva was that directed at me?
jkva
Feb 05 11:20

@pkra - no, but I'm watching your video at the moment.
pkra
Feb 05 11:20

ah, ok :)
jkva
Feb 05 11:23

Very nice @pkra. Not sure how hard it is for AT to deal with TeX atm.
pkra
Feb 05 11:24

@jkva well, the underlying format is MathML, where AT is so-so.
pkra
Feb 05 11:24

@jkva the TeX gets converted on the fly.
pkra
Feb 05 11:25

@jkva problem is, MathML implementations are shoddy, so JS rendering is necessary
pkra
Feb 05 11:25

MathML gets thrown out the page, but AT can only handle plain MathML -- and ARIA has no module for math so renderers like MathJax can't do anything sensible.
pkra
Feb 05 11:26

@jkva and of course AT is as also shoddy in terms of MathML support.
jkva
Feb 05 11:26

@pkra: Very impressed in that case - interpretation seemed uniform
pkra
Feb 05 11:27

@jkva Thanks for the kind words. Do try out the demo and find bugs and holes :)
pkra
Feb 05 11:28

We're looking for more funding to expand the tool (i18n, better semantics & speech rules) as well as informing the standards folks to maybe solve this at the root.
pkra
Feb 05 11:29

@jkva we'd really rather not do any of this ;-)
jkva
Feb 05 11:29

Out of curiosity, what's powering the backend?
pkra
Feb 05 11:29

No backend. Just JS.
pkra
Feb 05 11:29

all open source, of course.
jkva
Feb 05 11:29

++
pkra
Feb 05 11:30

we do build on Volker Sorge's earlier work as part of ChromeVox.
jkva
Feb 05 11:32

Cool, all new to me
pkra
Feb 05 11:33

thx.
jkva
Feb 05 11:35

"krautzource", heh, clever
pkra
Feb 05 11:44

:innocent:
jkva
Feb 05 12:12

https://discourse.mozilla-community.org/t/firefox-os-connected-devices-announcement/6864/11 :-/
StommePoes
Feb 05 12:20

@pkra are those NVDA arrows just plain arrows, or Object Nav arrows?
MichielBijl
Feb 05 12:36

@jkva: whoop whoop! Go a11y :D
StommePoes
Feb 05 13:37

https://vimeo.com/148443332
StommePoes
Feb 05 15:28

Hey Slackers, I have an actual question
StommePoes
Feb 05 15:30

So someone's made what seems like a multi-select listbox (that is, this functionality http://cookiecrook.com/test/aria/multiselect/listbox.html) but it looks much different-- like the select2 jQuery thingies (https://select2.github.io/examples.html see the "tagging" and multiple select examplts)
StommePoes
Feb 05 15:30

So, they keyboarding th guy's come up with don't follow the rules for a listbox.
StommePoes
Feb 05 15:31

The user needs to hit enter to hide/show the dropdown options.
StommePoes
Feb 05 15:31

The user can move up and down those options with arrows. Hitting enter selects an item.
StommePoes
Feb 05 15:31

To remove an item, focus needs to be at the top and removed with the backspace key.
StommePoes
Feb 05 15:32

So, clicking on an item which is already selected doesn't remove it (whereas in James' version of listbox, toggling with space the item will add/remove it).
jkva
Feb 05 15:32

Remove an item from a select?
jkva
Feb 05 15:32

You select an item from a select.
StommePoes
Feb 05 15:32

So this new thing acts a lot like the add email address To: field in Gmail.
StommePoes
Feb 05 15:32

It's somewhat like a select, but not entirely. It's a web component but I don't think it's enough like a select to have him inherit from select with <select is="x-funky-component"> stuff
StommePoes
Feb 05 15:33

Though... it could be, with multiselect attribute, as the web component fallback.
MichielBijl
Feb 05 15:59

Sounds like a combo box: http://w3c.github.io/aria/practices/aria-practices.html#combobox
MichielBijl
Feb 05 16:00

Haven't looked at your thing though (on the move).
StommePoes
Feb 05 16:24

ah ok combobox, except can haz multiple things
StommePoes
Feb 05 16:25

In Gmail, if you Compose, in the TO field, you can get an autocomplete name to show up, but then you can add another and another and another, and you can delete them by clicking with a mouse on the little X. No idea what keyboard should to do delete a name though.
MichielBijl
Feb 05 16:28

That still sounds like a combobox
MichielBijl
Feb 05 16:28

Err
MichielBijl
Feb 05 16:28

Sorry, that is: http://w3c.github.io/aria/practices/aria-practices.html#autocomplete
MichielBijl @MichielBijl needs more beer before giving advice
jnurthen
Feb 05 16:46

we use arrow left/right which will highlight the entries and then delete to remove them.
jnurthen
Feb 05 16:47

this example has some messed up aria (I think we have fixed this in a more recent version) but I think the keyboarding seems ok - http://www.oracle.com/webfolder/technetwork/jet/uiComponents-combobox-multi.html
StommePoes
Feb 05 16:55

Oh @jnurthen that, that's it right there
StommePoes
Feb 05 16:56

looks like that anyway, and yeah @michielBijl it's got autocomplete sort of feature as well
StommePoes
Feb 05 22:23

Yeah the combobox is always aria-hidden :P
jnurthen
Feb 05 22:26

actually there is another one that gets added to the page (a child of one of the list elements)
jnurthen
Feb 05 22:27

it is a little funky though.... in my testing it seems to work but it is a little.... lets say... unconventional ;)
zakim-robot
Feb 05 23:20

[alice] alt-related straw poll: has anyone here seen a purely decorative <img> in the wild lately?
zakim-robot
Feb 05 23:21

[alice] Distinct from: background images, redundant icons
garcialo
Feb 05 23:21

pretty rarely, but it happens
garcialo
Feb 05 23:22

more often than not I see images in CSS
jnurthen
Feb 05 23:22

spacer images ;)
jnurthen
Feb 05 23:23

I see them frequently.... I guess my wild is different from your wild
garcialo
Feb 05 23:23

yeah, YWMV
jnurthen
Feb 05 23:26

to clarify I don't see them much in new frameworks but there are a lot of old frameworks still in use
MichielBijl
Feb 05 23:50

Twitter's main menu has decorative images.
MichielBijl
Feb 05 23:50

Those don't really add much
MichielBijl
Feb 05 23:52

And of course they're icon fonts and not images…
zakim-robot
Feb 05 23:52

[alice] @jnurthen where have you seen spacer images recently?
zakim-robot
Feb 05 23:52

[alice] "seen"
jnurthen
Feb 05 23:53

in a bunch of our apps on old frameworks ;)
zakim-robot
Feb 05 23:53

[alice] haha
zakim-robot
Feb 05 23:53

[alice] @MichielBijl You mean the redundant icons?
MichielBijl
Feb 05 23:53

Yeap
zakim-robot
Feb 05 23:54

[alice] Yeah, I think of that as a distinct case
jnurthen
Feb 05 23:55

for example all EBusiness Suite apps are on an HTML framework which uses spacer images
jnurthen
Feb 05 23:58

I see a few leftovers in a few other tech stacks too....
jnurthen
Feb 05 23:58

anything behind the question?

Gitter Channel Archive 5th of February 2016