Archive index

A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 23rd of February 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. StommePoes
    Feb 23 07:31
    w3c/tr-design#61
  2. StommePoes
    Feb 23 07:32
    I couldn't tell what the current state of figure+img without alt+figcaption, there's a long discussion on HTML5Doctor but it's also from 2010. But in the spec itself I still see alts so I'm assuming it's still true that, even with figure semantics, the img without alt will cause the usual problems
  3. jkva
    Feb 23 08:09
    Client: "Blind people should be able to use our software as well!"
    Me: "That's great! I'm glad to hear that."
    Client: "Yeah, I also want their money."
  4. jkva
    Feb 23 08:09
    Hey, whatever works.
  5. StommePoes
    Feb 23 08:18
    Github: <svg aria-hidden="true" class="octicon octicon-plus" width="12" height="16" role="img" version="1.1" viewBox="0 0 12 16">
    <path d="M12 9H7v5H5V9H0V7h5V2h2v5h5v2z"></path>
    </svg>
  6. StommePoes
    Feb 23 08:18
    why bother putting a role on something considered hidden?
  7. StommePoes
    Feb 23 08:18
    Because I don't believe they ever, with scripting, remove the hidden or set it to false
  8. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 08:26
    Some have proper alt text/a label and aren't hidden.
  9. StommePoes
    Feb 23 08:29
    what are they using for alt?
  10. StommePoes
    Feb 23 08:29
    title?
  11. StommePoes
    Feb 23 08:29
    I found a repo where the commit messages were filled with apples and the face of the guy you play in Doom. No idea what those mean.
  12. jkva
    Feb 23 08:30
    The doom face = rage
  13. jkva
    Feb 23 08:30
    anger
  14. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 08:30
    @StommePoes don't know. Wasn't mentioned in the blog post I think.
  15. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 08:31
    Just stated that some are labelled.
  16. StommePoes
    Feb 23 08:39
    Hm, my boss really wants me (and the rest of my team) to join W3C
  17. StommePoes
    Feb 23 08:40
    I dunno, I feel stupid joining if I don't have time to actually contribute much.
  18. StommePoes
    Feb 23 08:40
    Though the SVG testing was fun and I could continue to do that... but you don't need to be on W3C to do github
  19. jkva
    Feb 23 08:40
    You contribute the gentle guidance and compassion that the W3C so clearly needs, @StommePoes.
  20. vdurhhe
    Feb 23 08:41
    Yeah, but anything you could contribute would be tremendous, even if you don't have much time and it's only a little bit.
  21. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 08:42
    Come and bitch about keyboard support in the ARIA WG :P
  22. StommePoes
    Feb 23 08:44
    hi Heather!
  23. vdurhhe
    Feb 23 08:44
    Howdyu!
  24. StommePoes
    Feb 23 08:44
    Machiel, this is my collega Heather
  25. jkva @jkva waves
  26. StommePoes
    Feb 23 08:44
    I'm shutting down at the moment tho, going to get on a bus to my office
  27. vdurhhe
    Feb 23 08:44
    Hi Machiel.
  28. StommePoes @StommePoes waves
  29. vdurhhe
    Feb 23 08:44
    K. See you later @StommePoes
  30. StommePoes
    Feb 23 08:44
    whoops, mIchiel
  31. StommePoes
    Feb 23 08:45
    in about... an hour or so
  32. jkva
    Feb 23 08:45
    Don't just leave us with her @StommePoes!
  33. vdurhhe
    Feb 23 08:45
    Sorry, Michiel.
  34. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 08:45
    Hi Heather :)
  35. vdurhhe
    Feb 23 08:46
    Hi!
  36. jkva
    Feb 23 08:46
    Welcome to our hive of scum and villainy!
  37. vdurhhe
    Feb 23 08:46
    Thank you!
  38. vdurhhe
    Feb 23 08:46
    Glad to be here.
  39. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 08:46
    I'm Mallory and Job's friendly neighbourhood stalker.
  40. jkva
    Feb 23 08:46
    @stevefaulkner Being referred by @MichielBijl to your comments on the new HTML5 for web designers book, I'll refrain from my purchase just yet.
  41. jkva
    Feb 23 08:46
    Ha! @MichielBijl
  42. jkva
    Feb 23 08:46
    I'm @StommePoes' parole officer
  43. vdurhhe
    Feb 23 08:46
    Excellent.
  44. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 08:46
    Haha
  45. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 08:47
    So what do you do Heather?
  46. vdurhhe
    Feb 23 08:47
    I do a11y QA at Pearson.
  47. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 08:47
    Nice!
  48. vdurhhe
    Feb 23 08:47
    Yes. I love it.
  49. zakim-robot
    Feb 23 08:48
    [lozandier] somethingIsTerriblyWrongWithMyChromeInstanceOfChromeVox.mp4
  50. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 08:48
    Glad to hear it.
  51. jkva
    Feb 23 08:48
    @lozandier: I have the uncontrollable urge to laugh along =D
  52. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 08:49
    @lozandier: your voice is set to Hilarious or something. Forgot the correct name.
  53. zakim-robot
    Feb 23 08:49
    [lozandier] … Wait, such option exists?
  54. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 08:50
    Yeap
  55. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 08:50
    Let me check the correct name.
  56. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 08:51
    Hysterical is the name
  57. jkva
    Feb 23 08:51
    @MichielBijl ++
  58. zakim-robot
    Feb 23 08:52
    [lozandier] I can't seem to find a settings panel for ChromeVox; I only see details & permissions on the extensions page.
  59. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 08:53
    I would delete and reinstall.
  60. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 08:53
    ChromeVix should have an options page.
  61. stevefaulkner
    Feb 23 09:00
    @jkva I wouldn't bother with it
  62. garcialo
    Feb 23 09:00
    :+1:
  63. stevefaulkner
    Feb 23 09:03
    @StommePoes its quality of contribution @w3c not quantity that counts. Critical analysis of output is, well, critical
  64. stevefaulkner
    Feb 23 09:04
    And hello @vdurhhe
  65. vdurhhe
    Feb 23 09:04
    Hi @stevefaulkner
  66. jkva
    Feb 23 09:07
    @stevefaulkner agree, I went through the Sensors API on github for SnG recently, was nice to see it was very well written. Shows it's serious imho.
  67. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 09:15
    Crap. I still need to reply to an e-mail about the Accessibility API…
  68. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 09:15
    It's from 2015/10/29… Bit late :P
  69. jkva
    Feb 23 09:15
    o_O
  70. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 09:16
    No, I gave feedback, but never replied to the e-mail I received on my feedback.
  71. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 09:16
    I suck at quick replies.
  72. jkva
    Feb 23 09:17
    "I've been on holiday for a while..."
  73. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 09:17
    Haha
  74. stevefaulkner
    Feb 23 09:41
    @stommepoes re figure/figcaption no SR act responsibly in the case of <img>. What i would expect is that in the case where there is an <img> inside <figure> with non empty <figcaption> they would announce presence of image, but not do the usual crappy heuristics.
  75. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 09:43
    What do you mean by the last part?
  76. stevefaulkner
    Feb 23 10:12
    you talkin to me?
  77. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 10:12
    Yes
  78. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 10:14
    I don't know what you mean by “usual crappy heuristics” when it comes to figures and figcaption.
  79. stevefaulkner
    Feb 23 10:18
    when an img has no alt attribute, depending on circumstance and user settings SR's will announce src of img or in case of <a href="blah"><img></a> will announce url
  80. stevefaulkner
    Feb 23 10:19
    some stuff about figure/figcaption https://www.w3.org/TR/2014/WD-html-alt-techniques-20141023/#m6
  81. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 10:19
    Right. So if there is a caption, you don't want it that to happen?
  82. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 10:19
    But caption ≠ alt right?
  83. stevefaulkner
    Feb 23 10:20
    right and right
  84. stevefaulkner
    Feb 23 10:20
    but at least announcing presence of img along with caption lets users know what the caption is referring to
  85. stevefaulkner
    Feb 23 10:21
    rather than the text being a caption for 0
  86. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 10:26
    Right, that makes sense
  87. stevefaulkner
    Feb 23 10:26
    @MichielBijl here is some stuff i thought about how figure/figcaption could/should work (in 2011) https://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2011/08/html5-accessibility-chops-the-figure-and-figcaption-elements/
  88. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 10:27
    Think I've read that, but have obviously forgotten. Will re-read, thanks!
  89. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 10:36
    Didn't you propose the addition of a figure and figcaption role?
  90. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 10:37
    I think figure role was accepted, but figcaption was not in favour of using caption I believe.
  91. stevefaulkner
    Feb 23 10:37
    yes, figure occure much later but yeah caption was nixed (even though there is native iA2 caption role)
  92. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 10:37
    Right: http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#figure
  93. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 10:38
    Hmm, didn't know that. I believe I voted against figcaption role.
  94. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 10:39
    (you can bash my head in for that at CSUN)
  95. stevefaulkner
    Feb 23 10:40
    unfortunately I can't as I won't be attending this year - personal matters intervened
  96. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 10:40
    Ahw :( Well, maybe some other time when I'm in the neighbourhood.
  97. jkva
    Feb 23 10:41
    Sorry to hear that @stevefaulkner :-/
  98. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 10:41
    Anyway, my reasoning was that it is possible to give something a caption/label via aria-labelledby/describedby.
  99. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 10:41
    And that it would also create a need for a caption role as within a table.
  100. stevefaulkner
    Feb 23 10:42
    your reasoning is faulty, but hey :-)
  101. stevefaulkner
    Feb 23 10:42
    thanks @jkva always next year
  102. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 10:43
    Could you explain, because I'd like to get better at reasoning :P
  103. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 10:43
    And could always reopen the debate of course.
  104. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 10:44
    A caption is in essence a label for a specific element/region no?
  105. stevefaulkner
    Feb 23 10:50
    If i thought it was important enough i would continue to debate it, but there are so many things that are worthwhile working on...
  106. stevefaulkner
    Feb 23 10:51
    have learned to save energy
  107. stevefaulkner
    Feb 23 10:52
    for standardization kerfuffles there is a chance in winning
  108. StommePoes
    Feb 23 10:54
    kerfluffles are tasty with creme
  109. stevefaulkner
    Feb 23 10:54
    there you are @StommePoes lurking again
  110. StommePoes
    Feb 23 10:55
    Was in a bus, now in an office with interwebz
  111. StommePoes
    Feb 23 10:57
    Reason I was asking about figcaptions was that Tenon had flagged some in the new CSS spec thingie proposal from Fantasai & Friends
  112. StommePoes
    Feb 23 10:57
    and I wondered if the old debat/quiz on HTML5Doctor was out of date, being from 2010
  113. StommePoes
    Feb 23 10:57
    spec was new but maybe happened to have alts
  114. stevefaulkner
    Feb 23 10:58
    haven't looked back at the debate so unsure - anything in particular?
  115. StommePoes
    Feb 23 10:58
    It was an old quiz
  116. StommePoes
    Feb 23 10:59
    but you sure were active in the comments :)
  117. StommePoes
    Feb 23 10:59
    You and Bruce ultimately almost-agreed
  118. StommePoes
    Feb 23 11:01
    But it seemed 2010 would be before any heuristic dances or new semantics or new behaviour would have kicked in
  119. StommePoes
    Feb 23 11:01
    6 years is 30 in interwebs-years
  120. StommePoes
    Feb 23 11:01
    if my maths is good
  121. StommePoes
    Feb 23 11:17
    YESH! The vendor finally sent a disclosure-button-thingie that does exactly what it's supposed to!
  122. StommePoes
    Feb 23 11:17
    woo
  123. jkva
    Feb 23 11:41
    Grrr. Why is FluentConf all the way in San Fransisco
  124. jkva @jkva reconsiders moving abroad
  125. zakim-robot
    Feb 23 11:57
    [jitendra] In this visual pattern is there is benefit to repeat Description text as ALT text for image?
  126. zakim-robot
    Feb 23 11:57
    [jitendra] Pasted image at 2016-02-23, 5:27 PM
  127. jkva
    Feb 23 12:08
    @jitendra - If the description text is part of the image and describes the image, I'd say. If the text is part of the image there is a different problem
  128. jkva
    Feb 23 12:08
    Am I understanding you correctly?
  129. jkva
    Feb 23 12:09
    From your screenshot, the article headlines don't seem to describe the accompanying image(s)
  130. zakim-robot
    Feb 23 12:12
    [jitendra] u r right in right sentecnes
  131. zakim-robot
    Feb 23 12:13
    [jitendra] images are not directly related or I would not being described what is being shown in image
  132. jkva
    Feb 23 12:17
    @jitendra - I have trouble understanding you, sorry. The alt text for an image should describe the image, if the image is not purely decorational. Since in this case, the images seem decorational, and unrelated to the articles themselves, an empty alt tag alt="" instructs screenreaders to ignore it.
  133. sophieschoice
    Feb 23 12:18
    On my Twitterfeed there are a lot of people in a kerfufle because Google stops displaying ads on the right side. Clearly I need to curate the list of who I follow...
  134. zakim-robot
    Feb 23 12:18
    [jitendra] but won’t we loose SEO if we keep alt emply?
  135. jkva
    Feb 23 12:19
    @jitendra: no idea, I don't bother with SEO, I try to write semantic HTML.
  136. jkva
    Feb 23 12:19
    @here: any input?
  137. sophieschoice
    Feb 23 12:19
    Jitendra, I read somewhere that the alt-tag doesn't have that much impact anymore on SEO
  138. zakim-robot
    Feb 23 12:20
    [jitendra] It’s a client’s website and it’s CMS based. They are using title filed to generate alt because somebody told them Alt is necessary
  139. sophieschoice
    Feb 23 12:20
    it used to be the case, but then money crazy-people started to abuse the alt-tag, so nowadays it isn't a big factor for SEO
  140. jkva
    Feb 23 12:20
    Actually, I would hope that "alt stuffing" would knock the search rating down a peg
  141. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 12:21
    I'm with stupid
  142. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 12:21
    s/stupid/Job/
  143. jkva
    Feb 23 12:21
    ._.
  144. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 12:21
    Sorry, that sentence is just stuck in mic head.
  145. sophieschoice
    Feb 23 12:27
    This message was deleted
  146. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 12:28
    Should be one link :)
  147. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 12:29
    <a href="england.php"><img><span>Groot-Brittannië</span></a>
  148. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 12:29
    Throw a div around the image if you need it for styling purposes.
  149. sophieschoice
    Feb 23 12:29
    Question: I learned that this is not OK: <a href="url"><img src="img.jpg" alt="" /></a> But how about this? Is this just as bad? <div class="monarchielist"> <ul class="clearfix"> <li> <div class="image"> <div class="graphic"><a href="koninklijkefamilies/engeland.php"><img src="../../../All Things Royal/Website/assets/img/landen/grootbrittannie.jpg" width="92" height="92" alt="" /></a></div> <div class="caption"><a href="koninklijkefamilies/engeland.php">Groot-Brittanni&euml;</a></div> </div> </li></ul></div>
  150. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 12:30
    In your example, you still have a link that doesn't have any content.
  151. sophieschoice
    Feb 23 12:31
    @MichielBijl Hm, I see...
  152. sophieschoice
    Feb 23 12:32
    @MichielBijl I can remove the link around the image, but I guess that when people look at the page, they expect the image to clickable as well
  153. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 12:33
    Yeah, so I suggest <a href="england.php"><img><span>Groot-Brittannië</span></a>
  154. sophieschoice
    Feb 23 12:36
    back to the designboard it is, to see if I can get the same design with your suggestion...
  155. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 12:36
    I know you can ;)
  156. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 12:37
    You just have to figure out how.
  157. sophieschoice
    Feb 23 12:37
    Sshhh :P
  158. sophieschoice
    Feb 23 12:37
    don't spoil the fun :P
  159. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 12:37
    Hehe
  160. jkva
    Feb 23 12:39
    The amount of slackers living under sea level seems to be gradually increasing
  161. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 12:42
    It'll be decreasing soon ;)
  162. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 12:42
    Or well, by just one…
  163. jkva
    Feb 23 12:43
    You're gonna do work @MichielBijl?! ;)
  164. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 12:44
    No, they're lifting my house a little…
  165. StommePoes
    Feb 23 12:58
    @jitendra are those whole blocks clickable?
  166. zakim-robot
    Feb 23 12:59
    [jitendra] Yes whole box is clickable
  167. StommePoes
    Feb 23 12:59
    Hm... they look kinda decorative, but people could want to know there are images there.
  168. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:00
    Alt="" would mean "ignore this image entirely because the text in this box is what's important actually"
  169. jkva
    Feb 23 13:00
    But the image is not related to the article?
  170. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:00
    I'm not sure
  171. jkva
    Feb 23 13:00
    Well, in my subjective opinion, fair enough.
  172. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:00
    they look a little bit like stock-photos-related-to-the-topic
  173. zakim-robot
    Feb 23 13:00
    [jitendra] they are not purely decorative like Icons, background images
  174. zakim-robot
    Feb 23 13:01
    [jitendra] There is some relation between title and image
  175. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:01
    Yeah
  176. zakim-robot
    Feb 23 13:01
    [jitendra] Images are upload by content writer via CMS
  177. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:01
    Like the first one... it might not be wrong to have alt="photos of Nerja and (whoever the other is)"
  178. zakim-robot
    Feb 23 13:02
    [jitendra] Yes that is Akshya Kumar
  179. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:02
    usually alt is supposed to be the text version of what an image says but in these cases, a description isn't necessarily bad.
  180. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:02
    But for example the other picture... that's Ghandi?
  181. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:02
    and the link goes to a political opinion piece?
  182. zakim-robot
    Feb 23 13:02
    [jitendra] neerja is name of character and the movie both
  183. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:03
    ah so most readers would know
  184. zakim-robot
    Feb 23 13:03
    [jitendra] While in the male actor case “Airlift” is name of the movie
  185. jkva
    Feb 23 13:03
    Egg on my face, I didn't recognise it was Gandhi >_<
  186. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:04
    if I were given this screenshot and told to do whatever I wanted to with, I probably would have alts with descriptive text (as people may be interested in what the images are of) but ideally I'd want the link text to come fist
  187. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:04
    first
  188. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:04
    Although I doubt you have that kind of CSS control here.
  189. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:04
    But that would be ideal: go ahead and describe briefly the images and they're somewhat representative of the content, but I would wish I could list them after the article titles.
  190. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:05
    Jitendra "airlift star [name of actor]" for that guy
  191. zakim-robot
    Feb 23 13:05
    [jitendra] yes
  192. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:06
    so... yeah. This might be an edge case, and I know some people would tell you to alt="" on those because they're a little bit decorative, but I vote for considering them content and giving them very brief descriptions.
  193. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:06
    "Airlift star [name of actor] and Neerja"
  194. zakim-robot
    Feb 23 13:06
    [jitendra] but the text below image is same too
  195. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:07
    The text below is the name of the article, no? "Airlift, Neerja: Real stories and pop patriotism..."
  196. zakim-robot
    Feb 23 13:07
    [jitendra] yes
  197. zakim-robot
    Feb 23 13:07
    [jitendra] current markup has same text for article title and Alt tex
  198. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:08
    Keep in mind if you do have a non-empty alt, a screen reader wil read out "graphic Airlift star [name of actor] and Neerja" then "link Airlift, Neerja: Real stories & Pop Patriotism..." etc
  199. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:08
    I wouldn't make it exactly the same... IF the uploader is told to write alt text, they should simply state what the image is of.
  200. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:08
    and not copy it from the article title
  201. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:08
    because yes, if they are identical, you don't want that
  202. zakim-robot
    Feb 23 13:08
    [jitendra] How screen reader will read out graphic Airlift star [name of actor] and Neerja ?
  203. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:09
    better alt="" than it being identical to the article link title.
  204. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:09
    Jitendra if it's <img src="theimage.jpg" alt="Airlift star [whoever] and Neerja">
  205. zakim-robot
    Feb 23 13:09
    [jitendra] ok but who will do this
  206. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:09
    Then the AT doesn't just read text out loud, it states WHAT the thing is.
  207. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:10
    The people placing the images have to do it
  208. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:10
    and if they cant or won't, then I'd tell them to make it empty
  209. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:10
    I mean, if your only choices are alt="" or alt="copy of the article link text" then do ""
  210. zakim-robot
    Feb 23 13:10
    [jitendra] The CMS which this website is using has no input to add Alt text
  211. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:10
    Oh
  212. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:10
    So how could they do alt=""?
  213. zakim-robot
    Feb 23 13:10
    [jitendra] it just take article title and use it for Alt text too
  214. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:10
    oh
  215. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:11
    That's not good.
  216. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:11
    I mean, it's not stopping anyone from using the site but the repetition is annoying and not very helpful.
  217. zakim-robot
    Feb 23 13:11
    [jitendra] And even if there will be an input to write different Alt text
  218. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:11
    If there was, the people placing them would have to type in good ones
  219. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:11
    and that can be hard, yes.
  220. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:11
    I think the WordPress people were working on ways to make this better for their CMS...
  221. zakim-robot
    Feb 23 13:11
    [jitendra] I assume the people who add content will either leave it empty or will use same text for title and alt text
  222. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:12
    Hm yeah that's quite possible
  223. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:12
    You could, with a script in the CMS, check if what they type is equal to the link title
  224. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:12
    and if so, make an error or empty it
  225. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:12
    and if they leave it empty, turn it into alt=""
  226. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:12
    That way, either we get alt="" or something useful
  227. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:13
    but if that input had helpful text to encourage people to write something good... that might help.
  228. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:13
    I don't know if you're able to get to the code of this CMS?
  229. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:13
    You're not working for Milaap anymore are you?
  230. zakim-robot
    Feb 23 13:13
    [jitendra] 99.99% will leave it empty is my assumption if we allow to
  231. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:13
    Very likely, yeah. That's not great but not horrible
  232. zakim-robot
    Feb 23 13:13
    [jitendra] No
  233. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:13
    I think the WORST outcome is the repetition of the link title
  234. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:14
    Where are you working now?
  235. zakim-robot
    Feb 23 13:14
    [jitendra] People who are writing content are not designer or developers
  236. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:14
    They are content people.
  237. zakim-robot
    Feb 23 13:14
    [jitendra] yes
  238. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:15
    They do know how to write content. They can be shown with a little training how to write alt text, and they are better writers of potential alt text than a developer actually. But only if they get shown what a different it will make.
  239. zakim-robot
    Feb 23 13:15
    [jitendra] yes
  240. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:15
    I just read something via Twitter, someone wrote how alt text is an organisation problem, not a technical one...
  241. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:15
    maybe you retweeted it, not sure
  242. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:15
    but it was a good article, she had the same problem
  243. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:15
    and managed to get people to write better alt text.
  244. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:17
    Hm, according to this, better to consider them stock art: http://www.userfocus.co.uk/articles/alt_text.html
  245. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:18
    So they recommend alt="", although there are people who DO want to know there's an image and what it is, when attached to a news article.
  246. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:19
    Here's the article I was talking about http://simplyaccessible.com/article/three-pitfalls-text-alternatives/
  247. StommePoes
    Feb 23 13:20

    "Sometimes developers have to be a bit sneaky. Demonstrating the perils of letting a code monkey write for a human audience can inspire a speedy change in workflow.

    What barriers do you face when adding alt content to your images? What could you do about them? Could adapt current processes to include alt content at an earlier stage of the project? Can you modify your CMS so non-technical people can add text alternatives to their own images? I’d love to know your ideas to improve this essential aspect of sharing the web with everyone. Post them in the comments below."

  248. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 13:46
    Nice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6BWlCeX10I
  249. jkva
    Feb 23 13:47
    @MichielBijl: You cannot tab to that sign-in button?
  250. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 13:48
    Hmm, good question. I'll try.
  251. zakim-robot
    Feb 23 13:49
    [jitendra] Does Google use both Imagename and Alt text to show image in image search?
  252. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 13:49
    @jkva, you can actually, it's just not in the VO order :/
  253. jkva
    Feb 23 13:50
    bleh
  254. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 13:50
    It's also not in the item chooser, so you can't reach it via other VO methods.
  255. sophieschoice
    Feb 23 13:53
    @MichielBijl Woohoo! I believe I succeeded with your suggestion :D And with less HTML and CSS then the previous version too! Profit :D
  256. jkva
    Feb 23 13:53
    ++
  257. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 13:53
    Nice going!
  258. jkva
    Feb 23 13:54
    :sparkles: MichielBijl :sparkles:
  259. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 14:44
    Wow, much accessible, such reachable with VoiceOver (Steam): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDkuOHCWz9Q
  260. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 14:52
    Skype fares a bit better: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5wZC258gXY
  261. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 14:54
    It's just the order in their after sign in advert crap that is illogical.
  262. StommePoes
    Feb 23 14:56
    Wow, i cannot see who's saying what in the above conversation
  263. StommePoes
    Feb 23 14:57
    I also broke my NVDA
  264. StommePoes
    Feb 23 14:57
    I tried changing the voice synth in the preferences
  265. StommePoes
    Feb 23 14:57
    to something like Microsoft app 4?
  266. StommePoes
    Feb 23 14:57
    and now I'm stuck in an endless cycle of alerts that I can't stop
  267. sophieschoice
    Feb 23 15:27
    Ha, I tried to use VoiceOver, but I didn't get any or something
  268. sophieschoice
    Feb 23 15:27
    any sound, I mean
  269. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 15:29
    System muted?
  270. sophieschoice
    Feb 23 15:29
    no
  271. sophieschoice
    Feb 23 15:29
    really strange....
  272. sophieschoice
    Feb 23 15:30
    well, I am not sure of Firefox is supported?
  273. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 15:30
    Not officially, no.
  274. sophieschoice
    Feb 23 15:30
    going to try with Safari tonight....
  275. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 15:31
    You should always hear something I guess.
  276. powrsurg
    Feb 23 15:46
    nah, he is just visiting pages with <html aria-hidden="true">
  277. powrsurg
    Feb 23 15:46
    :)
  278. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 15:57
    I think Sophie is a she ;)
  279. jonathantneal
    Feb 23 16:03

    I was reading about navigating to a section on a page using the hash, and how using focus on the target section allows keyboard users to continue navigating from that section as they might expect. The HTML goes something like: 

    <section id="section1" tabindex="-1"/>

    This results in the section getting a focus outline. Visually, I think it’s disruptive to see the focus outline on an element that can’t actually be focused. Would it be appropriate, in this case, to hide the outline? Would the following CSS be too intrusive? 

    [tabindex="-1"] {     outline: none; }
  280. StommePoes
    Feb 23 16:16
    it's fine, we do that all the time
  281. StommePoes
    Feb 23 16:16
    Though I have no idea who said that as I only see someone's name every so many posts for some reason
  282. stevefaulkner
    Feb 23 16:17
    @jonathantneal thats fine me thinks, I like the background fade effect that is used on http://webaim.org/
  283. jonathantneal
    Feb 23 16:21
    Yes, that combined with flying focus is very nice.
  284. zakim-robot
    Feb 23 16:27
    [muan] @StommePoes Hi, just saw your question regarding GitHub’s svg icon & aria-hidden: we set aria-hidden by default, but when an aria-label is set we'd remove the aria-hidden. We could remove the role when it’s hidden but I guess that’d mainly be saving markup?
  285. powrsurg
    Feb 23 16:42
    @MichielBijl that'll teach me to actually pay attention to who said what :p
  286. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 16:43
    @jonathanneal, I'm with Steve, background fade works great.
  287. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 16:45
    Setting up TunnelBear with VoiceOver is a pain: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqS8W37ztdw
  288. jonathantneal
    Feb 23 16:45
    That’s why I love this room. Many people who care about this stuff. I would just lose my job and any remaining free time if I didn’t sometimes hide this room, because it’s so active and filled with so much a11y candy.
  289. powrsurg
    Feb 23 16:46
    I just saw that flying-focus on webaim ... nice!
  290. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 16:47
    @muan: yeah, don't think it makes a difference. hidden = hidden.
  291. jonathantneal
    Feb 23 16:48
    @MichielBijl, I’m watching this video. Is the primary issue all the images that get focus?
  292. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 16:49
    That, and no alt text for images that do add context. And a bit later on, when selecting a country to connect to, you don't get feedback on what is selected.
  293. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 16:49
    No audible or visible focus/feedback
  294. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 17:15
    Jeez, do the companies even test this? Spotify login screen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huAcHVouB1w
  295. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 17:16
    s/the/these/
  296. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 18:30
    Woohoo, just got accepted to the Web Platform Working Group!
  297. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 18:30
    Now I can make bad decisions there too.
  298. zakim-robot
    Feb 23 18:47
    [marcysutton] Congrats @michiel!!
  299. sophieschoice
    Feb 23 19:17
    nice :D
  300. sophieschoice
    Feb 23 19:18
    which software do you use to record your screen on the Ma
  301. sophieschoice
    Feb 23 19:18
    Looks handy :D
  302. TzviyaSiegman
    Feb 23 19:55
    hi friends! What can you tell me about 1-column tables and AT. A11y validators don't like them. (Why not a list, you ask me. Because I am not the author. I am the publisher.)
  303. jonathantneal
    Feb 23 20:21
    @MichielBijl, I love that you are testing these things. Do you work for an organization or independently?
  304. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 20:21
    @Marcy Sutton: thanks!
  305. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 20:21
    @Sophieschoice: QuickTime Player allows you to record your screen.
  306. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 20:22
    @jonathanneal: this isn't work, this is me setting up my new MacBook and just testing the things I had to setup :P
  307. sophieschoice
    Feb 23 20:22
    teehee :D sometimes the answer/tool is so simple :D
  308. sophieschoice
    Feb 23 20:23
    oh, new toys are always fun :D which Macbook did you get?
  309. sophieschoice
    Feb 23 20:23
    I myself got the Macbook Pro (non-retina) last month, very happy with it.
  310. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 20:33
    I bought a MacBook Air 13" 2014 for CSUN.
  311. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 20:33
    I need something to drag around the conference and that can last all day :)
  312. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 20:33
    I'll probably sell it again after that.
  313. stevefaulkner
    Feb 23 21:24
    "a11y candy" - @jonathantneal
  314. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 21:29
    “I don't want to hear your voice”—Steve F.
  315. garcialo
    Feb 23 21:31
    "Stop sending me private messages!" - @stevefaulkner
  316. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 21:31
    “We should kick him from the channel”—Luis
  317. garcialo
    Feb 23 21:31
    :+1:
  318. jonathantneal @jonathantneal suddenly feels very awkward for sending Steve PMs every once in a while.
  319. garcialo
    Feb 23 21:48
    Don't worry, we all do it. He's very gracious...to a point.
  320. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 21:55
    Funny you'd say that, because he actually said what I quoted :P
  321. garcialo
    Feb 23 21:55
    well, I paraphrased
  322. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 21:56
    I have Steve as my VoiceOver voice.
  323. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 21:58
    Although Apple named him Lee for some reason.
  324. FionaTG
    Feb 23 22:40
    Evening all! I've got an example site set up to discuss the differences between aria-live polite and assertive, but I don't seem to be able to discern a difference in NVDA / Firefox. Anyone know of a resource that explains how it handles them differently?
  325. FionaTG
    Feb 23 22:49
    It still interrupts my typing even with polite
  326. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 23:04
    Do you hear a difference in other AT?
  327. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 23:05
    stevefaulkner made some test a couple weeks back.
  328. FionaTG
    Feb 23 23:05
    I only have NVDA on this laptop
  329. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 23:05
    Ah
  330. MichielBijl
    Feb 23 23:05
    I know it works in VoiceOver.
  331. stevefaulkner
    Feb 23 23:22
    Me thinks aria-live polite/assertive is one of those things you need to leave in the hands of the gods - set as you think it should be set, and walk away...
  332. garcialo
    Feb 23 23:23
    but which gods?
  333. stevefaulkner
    Feb 23 23:23
    Your choice
  334. garcialo
    Feb 23 23:24
    i think Bacchus would be the most fun
  335. stevefaulkner
    Feb 23 23:24
    @MichielBijl hearing your voice today for first time actually was a positive experience
  336. stevefaulkner
    Feb 23 23:25
    I had imagined you would sound like a chipmunk 😜
  337. stevefaulkner
    Feb 23 23:27
    I would go with God of Thunder & rock and roll 🎸
  338. FionaTG
    Feb 23 23:32
    @stevefaulkner Agreed, though it is slightly annoying when you're trying to teach with a demo!
  339. zakim-robot
    Feb 23 23:37
    [cordelia] Is <img alt src=“blah.jpg”/> just as valid as <img alt=“” src=“blah.jpg”/>?
  340. garcialo
    Feb 23 23:41
    Ultimately, it would depend on how it's interpreted by AT. Nu checker seems to not have a problem with it.
  341. zakim-robot
    Feb 23 23:54
    [cordelia] Tested with VO+Safari, NVDA+FF, JAWS+IE and they all treat the two the same.