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A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 24th of February 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. zakim-robot
    Feb 24 00:40
    [garcialo] Sounds like "" is the default value.
  2. garcialo
    Feb 24 01:01
    "Note that empty attribute syntax is exactly equivalent to specifying the empty string as the value for the attribute"
  3. StommePoes
    Feb 24 09:02
    @muan okay, thanks. I was under the impression most/all the icons were next to text and themselves always hidden.
  4. zakim-robot
    Feb 24 09:03
    [muan] :simple_smile: I’m looking into potentially removing the role though. Thanks for bringing it up.
  5. StommePoes
    Feb 24 09:04
    Well I thought, if they never appear, the role is silleh
  6. StommePoes
    Feb 24 09:04
    although... it does appear SVGs may get various roles assigned to them if you don't
  7. StommePoes
    Feb 24 09:04
    so maybe not so silleh
  8. StommePoes
    Feb 24 09:05
    In Linux/Firefox they get called diagram, instead of a divvy nothing.
  9. zakim-robot
    Feb 24 09:05
    [muan] Yeah, but also perhaps presentation would be more appropriate?
  10. StommePoes
    Feb 24 09:06
    @TzviyaSiegman I think there's little you can do about the message; it's telling you the content is in an improper set of markup, like doing <p class="heading">I look like a heading</p>
  11. StommePoes
    Feb 24 09:06
    @muan that's was my first thought when I first saw the code, yeah
  12. StommePoes
    Feb 24 09:06
    although, combined with hidden, may be redundany
  13. StommePoes
    Feb 24 09:06
    redundant.
  14. StommePoes
    Feb 24 09:07
    @TzviyaSiegman however, it doesn't mean someone using AT can't get to that content, but they may have unnecessary confusion at the 1 column table. Esp. if it's styled in a way that doesn't look like a table and someone is both using AT and looking at the page, they may not expect to use table navigation (on the other hand, there may be no point in using table nav in 1 col tables).
  15. StommePoes
    Feb 24 09:09
    Presentation role is meant to effectively remove a role, make a thing like a div or span. And since it seems SVGs do get roles assigned (differs per browser it seems?) then presentation makes sense. But then yeah, if they do appear a role + aria-label would be necessary. BTW in @michielBijl's test pages, JAWS+IE was ignoring SVGs with role=img and aria-label, if I remember correctly.
  16. StommePoes
    Feb 24 09:09
    Not because that's bad code but because JAWS or IE are not cool.
  17. zakim-robot
    Feb 24 09:10
    [muan] :confused:
  18. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 09:51
    Morning slackers
  19. StommePoes
    Feb 24 09:57
    mogge
  20. hoi
  21. stevefaulkner
    Feb 24 11:33
    suggest not using html-markup as a reference as it is ages old and out of date - suggest using http://w3c.github.io/html/ as it is up todate and will continue to be
  22. zakim-robot
    Feb 24 11:36
    [dean] morgen. Curious question, is there a reason as to why there is a disproportionate amount of NL based accessibility folks on here? I have heard of 3 before Slack, and 2 are posting above.
  23. stevefaulkner
    Feb 24 11:37
    dutch getto
  24. LjWatson
    Feb 24 11:37
    Don't think it's disproportionate... they're just noisier than the rest of us :)
  25. Dutch a11y representeert!
  26. stevefaulkner
    Feb 24 11:38
    @cordelia - interesting question about alt="" versus alt
  27. Helaas pindakaas!
  28. LjWatson
    Feb 24 11:40
    @Dean where are you based?
  29. zakim-robot
    Feb 24 11:40
    [dean] Amsterdam
  30. LjWatson
    Feb 24 11:40
    Aha! :D
  31. FionaTG
    Feb 24 11:50
    It is nice to have a chat channel that isn't completely dead until everyone in the US gets up
  32. LjWatson
    Feb 24 11:52
    +1 @fionatg
  33. sophieschoice
    Feb 24 12:14
    Dutch/Belgium border represent
  34. stevefaulkner
    Feb 24 12:17
    @cordelia - only diff i can find between alt and alt="" is in DOM representation in chrome: all i tested except chrome convert alt to alt="" in DOM. Chrome represents as alt only. haven't tested webkit
  35. stevefaulkner
    Feb 24 12:19
    @garcialo so the reference for empty attributes = http://w3c.github.io/html/syntax.html#elements-attributes
  36. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:25
    @ljWatson @dean We even had a sort of Accessiwhisky meeting thing last Friday in Dieren, and none of that group is here except Michiel, jkva and I.
  37. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:26
    So could be many, many more.
  38. it's called role=drinks
  39. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:26
    Also, seems Hans never comes here, what gives? We stink or something? :P
  40. LjWatson
    Feb 24 12:27
    @HansHillen is in NZ not NL :)
  41. I've heard of that place, it has parts of land that is higher than other parts of land. Very strange.
  42. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:30
    Did he move there @ljWatson??
  43. stevefaulkner
    Feb 24 12:30
    Hans is too much of a comfy clog to fraternise
  44. stevefaulkner
    Feb 24 12:30
    @StommePoes years ago
  45. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:31
    can't say the Dutch are more accessibly-minded, I wouldn't remain living here if I ended up in a wheelchair. One thing the US is better about.
  46. stevefaulkner
    Feb 24 12:31
    but was visiting NL recently
  47. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:31
    Zomg so when Leonie and Michiel and chaals got together, he'd flown 3 days to get over here???
  48. LjWatson
    Feb 24 12:31
    @StommePoes Yup. A couple of years back. He was back in NL for a few months last year though.
  49. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:31
    I did that once with jkva, I swear it was about 3 days of flying
  50. LjWatson
    Feb 24 12:31
    No, he was back in NL for a time then. But he's back in NZ now.
  51. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:32
    Well, he could still come here
  52. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:32
    We don't have any problem with Kiwis. Jason Kiss could show up too
  53. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:32
    KIWIS WELCOME
  54. LjWatson
    Feb 24 12:32
    Jason will be at CSUN, so will Hans.
  55. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:33
    Yeah met Jason there last year, we did the beer thing
  56. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:33
    And this time his former colleague Steve Buell will be there as well
  57. LjWatson
    Feb 24 12:33
    Ah yes. The beer thing :)
  58. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:33
    Thanks to Eric Wright offering space or support or something. Awesome.
  59. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:33
    Yeah Leonie you missed the beer thing last tie.
  60. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:33
    time
  61. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:34
    it was fun.
  62. LjWatson
    Feb 24 12:34
    Hmm. Reminds me. Someone from the ARIA WG was asking about girls to share a room with at CSUN.
  63. LjWatson
    Feb 24 12:34
    @StommePoes I don't like beer :(
  64. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:34
    Well but it was also a chance to wander a brewery, they went into how beer is made, got to smell (and taste if you wanted) the grains and hops
  65. mmm beer
  66. LjWatson
    Feb 24 12:35
    True. I can't remember what I was doing now. CSUN ends up being a bit of a blur :)
  67. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:35
    You probably hit the ground running and didn't stop until you got homne
  68. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:35
    home
  69. LjWatson
    Feb 24 12:35
    Yup, that's usually how it works!
  70. LjWatson
    Feb 24 12:35
    I sleep on the plane on the way home.
  71. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:35
    Oh I wish I could sleep on a plane
  72. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:35
    For some reason I can't./
  73. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:36
    I can sleep on a bus or a train but no matter how tired I am, I remain at best in a vaguely groggy state.
  74. LjWatson
    Feb 24 12:36
    Me either usually, but a week of 2/3 hours sleep a night at CSUN will usually do the trick.
  75. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:36
    Apparently it's the same with Sina.
  76. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:36
    I may try that :P
  77. LjWatson
    Feb 24 12:36
    Works for me :)
  78. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:36
    I've also tried the drinking a bunch of alcohol while taking too many 1st generation antihistamines
  79. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:36
    but that hasn't worked yet.
  80. LjWatson
    Feb 24 12:37
    I'l drink during the week, which is generally why only 2/3 hours sleep each night, but not on the plane so much.
  81. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:37
    I don't want to be drunk on a plane but the antihistamine labels warn alcohol increases the sleepiness side effects
  82. LjWatson
    Feb 24 12:37
    Think I passed out on @stevefaulkner's shoulder on the plane on the way home last year... about five mins after take-off.
  83. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:38
    Which, I can't buy those here, NL only sells 2nd generation antihistamines.
  84. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:38
    Those took the drowsy out (sad panda)
  85. LjWatson
    Feb 24 12:38
    Oh :(
  86. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:38
    Also, I'd be a cranky monster the last days. And apparently my week starts the Monday.
  87. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:39
    I may have to be a Booth Babe.
  88. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:39
    So I hope someone brings me a ridiculously tight tshirt.
  89. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:39
    otherwise, what's the point.
  90. LjWatson
    Feb 24 12:39
    The TPG crew gets in at the start of the week, but I'll only be heading there sometime on Wednesday.
  91. jkva @jkva gets some dollar bills
  92. sophieschoice
    Feb 24 12:39
    Talking about conferences: any good ones in NL/BE or UK on usability/accessibility for a future entrepeneur/self-employed?
  93. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:39
    I don't know, but Bram and iacobien are startins a calendar
  94. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:40
    and it's listig everything butsome are in NL
  95. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:40
    toegankelijkheidskalender.nl
  96. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:40
    Don't worry, it's going to be rewritten.
  97. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:40
    Bram's turning it from WP to Django and has asked if I would redo stuff in the front.
  98. Django \o/
  99. LjWatson
    Feb 24 12:41
    @sophieschoice not a11y specifically, but I'll be talking about CSS accessibility at #CSSDay
  100. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:41
    In fact, if you learn of anything in Belgium @sophieschoice then let @bramDuvigneau or @Iacobien know.
  101. LjWatson
    Feb 24 12:41
    @jkva if you'll be at CSUN, bring lots of $$. We don't call the hotel the "Manchester Grand Theft Hyatt" for nothing :)
  102. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:41
    haha we're not staying there
  103. sophieschoice
    Feb 24 12:42
    Will do @StommePoes !
  104. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:42
    Pearson wouldn't pay for anything so we went for what was sort of cheap.
  105. LjWatson
    Feb 24 12:42
    @StommePoes @jkva Good idea.
  106. sophieschoice
    Feb 24 12:42
    @LjWatson Yeah, perhaps general webdesign conferences are good for me to attend as well....
  107. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:42
    Although not hostel-cheap, because the one time I tried to sleep in a StayOK (hostel/backpacker) for a conference, a group of Japanese girls talked so loudly all night long I was sleep deprived and kept falling asleep during talks :(
  108. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:43
    Sophie what about Fronteers?
  109. Really looking forward to CSUN. Foliot's article for newbies was a good primer, and I need to make a CSUN calendar still.
  110. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:43
    I do too. The website is pretty unusable.
  111. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:43
    I need to be able to easily pick out what I think I must see so I can offer the other times to go be Booth Babe.
  112. Have to drink scotch with Foliot at some point
  113. sophieschoice
    Feb 24 12:44
    @StommePoes Yeah, Fronteers is quite known. And Smashing Magazine in Germany.
  114. StommePoes
    Feb 24 12:45
    Jf can probably out drink you @jkva.
  115. sophieschoice
    Feb 24 12:46
    @StommePoes Going to make a list for myself which ones sound/are interesting. Might be good for me as a person and for my future business as well.
  116. @StommePoes I wasn't going to challenge him to a contest =P
  117. sophieschoice
    Feb 24 12:52
    BTW, I got an e-mail from a recruitment company from London. For a client in Maidstone they are looking for a full stack webdeveloper who also focusses on accessibility. You will be working with Wordpress, Bootstrap, JQuery and such. While I am looking for a job, relocating is not possible due to money. If anyone is interested I can forward the mail.
  118. "full stack webdeveloper", heh
  119. LjWatson
    Feb 24 12:53
    Love "full stack web developer". It's what we all were back in the day, before everyone decided it would be better to separate out all the different bits.
  120. @sophieschoice: What sort of work are you looking for?
  121. sophieschoice
    Feb 24 12:56
    @jkva I want to work in the usability-field. Online marketing, content/website managing or social media managing is nice as well, but my passion lies with usability since I have read Jakob Nielsen's books. I would love to get in that field in NL or Belgium, but it is difficult... especially since I have no professional experence in usability (only a first job in webdesign)
  122. @sophieschoice: contracting or permanent?
  123. sophieschoice
    Feb 24 12:58
    do you mean with contracting freelancing?
  124. @sophieschoice yes
  125. sophieschoice
    Feb 24 13:00
    Ha, if I lived in the Netherlands I would, because starting as a freelancer doesn't cost (much) money. But I live in Belgium and they don't know the concept of freelancers as they do in NL. In Belgium you have to become self-employed with all the costs that come with it. And that's a lot!
  126. @sophieschoice We'll have to smuggle you across the border ;)
  127. sophieschoice
    Feb 24 13:01
    Ooooh yes :D !
  128. stevefaulkner @stevefaulkner still dunno how to pronounce @MichielBijl just gonna call him Mick
  129. stevefaulkner
    Feb 24 13:05
    you having a go at my nationality @jkva ;-)
  130. Perish the thought.
  131. Ha, I'll ask my Cornish coworker if he knows that word
  132. StommePoes
    Feb 24 13:32
    Steve I thought you were a bogan
  133. StommePoes
    Feb 24 13:34
    Now in Finding Nemo I thought the shark being named Bruce was related to this Python sketch, however it also turns out Bruce was the nickname for the JAWS shark in that other film.
  134. StommePoes
    Feb 24 13:36
    He works for... digipaint?
  135. StommePoes
    Feb 24 13:36
    digitalpaint?
  136. StommePoes
    Feb 24 13:36
    something like that
  137. StommePoes
    Feb 24 13:36
    He also has a bag, the same company we saw in the helvetica movie, with a big "e" on it and I always thought it looked like the IE "e", and we joked about it a few Fronteers-Confs ago. Which actually inspired my quest for an IE t-shirt. Thanks to Heilmann, my goal was realised
  138. StommePoes
    Feb 24 13:37
    I wonder what Pearson can do to help push MS over into putting MathML support in Edge on the table
  139. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 14:04
    test
  140. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 14:05
    Hmm, my IRC bridge is broken :O
  141. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 14:05
    Haven't received any messages since last night -.-
  142. stevefaulkner
    Feb 24 14:11

    Steve I thought you were a bogan

    thats a slur peddled by brucel

  143. garcialo
    Feb 24 14:12
    @stevefaulkner Thanks for the follow up.
  144. stevefaulkner
    Feb 24 14:14
    @garcialo np macho
  145. powrsurg
    Feb 24 14:21
    @StommePoes you actually got an IE t-shirt? I was trying to get one for the longest time. All I was able to get were Web Platform and Windows 10 shirts
  146. FionaTG
    Feb 24 14:22
    I have a "Pluralsight and Chill" t-shirt, which is wonderful because half the people given one have no idea what that means
  147. powrsurg
    Feb 24 14:27
    yeah I just googled Pluralsight ... the site seems to have issues since I have Tracking Protection enabled in Firefox =/
  148. powrsurg
    Feb 24 14:28
    I can sign up for Standard at "$/mo*"!
  149. FionaTG
    Feb 24 14:29
    Sounds like a good discount, you should go for it haha
  150. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 14:56
    @stevefaulkner God of Thunder & rock and roll, I like that.
  151. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 14:56
    And no, I don't sound like a chipmunk =P
  152. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 15:14
    The Axe Man approves.
  153. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 15:24
    @StommePoes @jkva DigitPaint is pretty cool. Small company when I last visited (two years ago).
  154. Yeah, vaguely heard of them
  155. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 15:26
    @sophieschoice I'd definitely visit CSS Day if you can.
  156. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 15:26
    It's not cheap, but speakers are always very good.
  157. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 15:26
    I'm still looking to score a ticket, but not sure I can manage.
  158. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 15:28
    @garcialo, this looks interesting indeed, but no way that's worth 38KB: https://github.com/ruidfigueiredo/easykeyjs
  159. garcialo
    Feb 24 15:29
    Yeah, I noticed that as well.
  160. garcialo
    Feb 24 15:29
    I mean what's 38KB between friends?
  161. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 15:30
    Hmm, well, between you and me, a single cell can store a couple MB's, so not much.
  162. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 15:30
    Maybe just have a global object which you can call like keys.tab, keys.backspace, keys.leftArrow etc.
  163. garcialo
    Feb 24 15:31
    Exactly. I mean...you're already using jQuery
  164. garcialo
    Feb 24 15:31
    ...if you're using this thing
  165. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 15:32
    Don't you dare accuse me of using jQuery
  166. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 15:32
    Oh right
  167. zakim-robot
    Feb 24 15:36
    [cordelia] @stevef: thanks for the follow-up and updated link. yep, safari also converts it into alt with no value
  168. stevefaulkner
    Feb 24 15:40
    @cordelia does not appear to effect how it is represented in acc tree in chrome
  169. stevefaulkner
    Feb 24 15:40
    or not in the case of chrome
  170. stevefaulkner
    Feb 24 15:41
    as alt="" = role=presentation is = to hidden in acc tree in chrome
  171. jonathantneal
    Feb 24 16:02
    @MichielBijl, maybe you can help me, I’m trying to migrate some JS to jQuery...
  172. jonathantneal
    Feb 24 16:03
    .. it’s written to follow a lot of “functional programming” and “best practices” but we want some of these things to be in jQuery the jQuery way for jQuery.
  173. jonathantneal
    Feb 24 16:03
    ... and we can’t rely on vanilla js because our programmers only know jQuery which is the real standard.
  174. jonathantneal
    Feb 24 16:04
    :trollface: okay I’m done
  175. Good lord I was starting to wonder
  176. Be still my heart
  177. git pull
  178. oops
  179. jonathantneal
    Feb 24 16:06
    It’s okay. If I had read what I wrote from someone else, I’d probably want to git reset --hard origin/master and take a shower.
  180. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 16:08
    Haha
  181. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 16:09
    git rename origin jedi && git push --force jedi master
  182. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 16:10
    But yeah, I can help, do you mind if I start with CoffeeScript and mangle that into jQuery though?
  183. jonathantneal
    Feb 24 16:15
    I’d like to follow ES4 but use the arrows from ES7 for readability.
  184. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 16:21
    Hmm, I have a weird problem. I got really exited about css variables, I think it's a great addition to CSS. And am very happy to see them in Blink, WebKit, and Gecko, but they don't seem to work with my code.
  185. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 16:21
    <head>   <style>     :root {       --pen-colour: royalblue;     }   </style> </head> <body>   <p>The pen is <font color="var(--pen-colour)">rr-r-r-r-r-blue</font>, the pen is <font color="var(--pen-colour)">blue</font>!</p> </body>
    
  186. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 16:21
    What am I doing wrong?
  187. jonathantneal
    Feb 24 16:24
    @MichielBijl, tried style="color:var(--pen-colour)"?
  188. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 16:25
    Hmm, that doesn't work. Now they are back to black instead of green.
  189. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 16:28
    I've put up a test case: http://dir.rawr.eu/var.html
  190. jonathantneal
    Feb 24 16:49
    Does anyone here work on A11y Weekly? I just wanna say thanks for the great work.
  191. powrsurg
    Feb 24 17:01
    So boss above my boss wanted us to look into slack because they heard of it and wanted to compare it to bandcamp. I said I use slack for another channel and gitter for here because I prefer gitter (mostly a "I tried this first" thing). Of course the first thing he notices is @MichielBijl's YouTube link :p
  192. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 17:02
    That's good right :P
  193. jonathantneal
    Feb 24 17:04
    I just recommended this channel to someone and I was like haha the first thing they’ll see is this giant YouTube video.
  194. jonathantneal
    Feb 24 17:04
    But I kinda like that this is informal enough that I can ask questions that I might be afraid make me look stupid.
  195. jonathantneal
    Feb 24 17:05
    @powrsurg, bandcamp?
  196. powrsurg
    Feb 24 17:05
    basecamp
  197. powrsurg
    Feb 24 17:06
    and yeah, it's all good :)
  198. jonathantneal
    Feb 24 17:06
    I like basecamp more than JIRA, but I wish the Harvest plugin showed me how many hours have been spent on a task.
  199. powrsurg
    Feb 24 18:57
    Where would you guys start with making http://www.lingscars.com/ accessible?
  200. powrsurg
    Feb 24 18:57
    :)
  201. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 19:04
    Easy
  202. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 19:04
    <body hidden>
  203. jonathantneal
    Feb 24 19:04
    Why that’s the most accessible site I’ve ever seen. Why change a thing?
  204. garcialo
    Feb 24 19:08
    @powrsurg I would start with a serious conversation.
  205. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 19:10
    You always say that
  206. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 19:11
    But at we never have a serious conversation, it's always “do the dishes Michiel, scrub the floors Michiel, take out the trash Michiel”, never “let's have a serious conversation Michiel”…
  207. garcialo
    Feb 24 19:14
    Michiel; go to your channel.
  208. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 19:15
    I must get back to my Lego's, see you later.
  209. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 19:16
    Animations in JavaScript? Preposterous!
  210. jonathantneal
    Feb 24 19:16
    :(
  211. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 19:18
    Does anyone know if lego has their build guides in braille?
  212. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 19:18
    Not sure that'd make sense, but seems like a cool idea.
  213. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 19:19
    Or “Lego: the audio book”
  214. sophieschoice
    Feb 24 19:43
    The plural of Lego is just Lego, Michiel ;)
  215. sophieschoice
    Feb 24 19:43
    But yeah, Lego is cool :D
  216. FionaTG
    Feb 24 19:43
    Am I going insane, or is the aria-atomic boolean the opposite of what you'd expect? Atomic means the smallest particle, so when it's true, why does it mean all the things?
  217. FionaTG
    Feb 24 19:44
    I may be over thinking this...
  218. garcialo
    Feb 24 19:44
    maybe it means atomic like the bomb?
  219. zakim-robot
    Feb 24 19:44
    [johnbhartley] ^ i've always thought of it in the bomb sense
  220. FionaTG
    Feb 24 19:46
    Ah, hadn't considered that interpretation!
  221. jonathantneal
    Feb 24 19:48
    I looked for some historical insight into the name, but could not find anything. Looks like your interpretation has definitely happened before http://webaim.org/discussion/mail_thread?thread=6968
  222. jonathantneal
    Feb 24 19:49

    An attempted explanation (that is probably a guess is)

    The word [atom] originally meant "the smallest unbreakable single unit", so aria-atomic would mean "everything in this aria-atomic box is a single unbreakable unit."

  223. FionaTG
    Feb 24 19:51
    Yes, it does seem like a strange attribute name if it has two interpretations that are literal opposites!
  224. jonathantneal
    Feb 24 19:52
    Agreed. It does seem to be one of the stranger attribute names. I didn’t even know about it until you brought it up. All my insight is brought to you by Google™. :P
  225. powrsurg
    Feb 24 20:32
    it's like how a quantum leap should actually mean the smallest possible change one could make, but people use it to describe things like changes to the growth of mobile development following the release of the iPhone ...
  226. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 20:36
    If we follow quantum mechanics it could be a leap to anything and everywhere.
  227. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 20:36
    And all of those at the same time…
  228. Slackers, what would you suggest for a minimal css grid sheet, apart from rolling your own?
  229. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:23
    Hmm, I'd roll my own.
  230. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:24
    No, bootstrap seems popular ;)
  231. Yeah, it's not difficult from what I'm seeing
  232. garcialo
    Feb 24 22:24
    I like the CSS Grid Spec
  233. Pff, and the cart full of poop I get with it
  234. garcialo
    Feb 24 22:24
    much easier for me to understand...it just doesn't have subgrids yet
  235. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:24
    What do you need a grid for anyway?
  236. @MichielBijl I don't, just wondering about if I'd need one
  237. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:25
    Ah, I usually just size the components to what they ned to be.
  238. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:26
    components make up modules, modules can have widths too. So percentages all the way.
  239. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:26
    I've never really had the need for grid thingies.
  240. Yeah, that's what I'm getting so far. Kinda surprises me that grid systems are so popular
  241. And pct seems to go back pretty far in browser support
  242. Hmm, I should see what IE7 does if I use
    width: 600px; width: calc(90% - 20px)
    
  243. If it falls back to the first
  244. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:29
    Yeap :)
  245. It does? Great
  246. I'll just use display:table for everything
  247. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:32
    CSS is build in such a way that an entire line is ignored if a value|unit|property isn't understood.
  248. That's called shitty parser ;)
  249. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:33
    No, it's called backwards compatibility :P
  250. :+1:
  251. Hmm, hopefully that means that also I can use flex in combination with 'older' styling methods
  252. Would have to experiment
  253. jonathantneal
    Feb 24 22:35
    Speaking of, I kind of miss currentStyle. It was the closest thing we had to polyfilling CSS on the clientside.
  254. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:35
    @jkva: you can, but can also do @supports (display: flex)
  255. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:36
    No need to support older prefix meuk if you already have a fallback.
  256. @MichielBijl That works because @supports needs to be supported?
  257. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:36
    Yeap
  258. Heheh, "meuk" (garbage)
  259. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:36
    And if not everything inside is ignored :)
  260. sweet
  261. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:36
    I'm mighty proud of this:
  262. :drumroll:
  263. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:38
    alt=Blue and white Lego fighter yet of about 50 centimeter in length https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/yyJjEJL6/Lego-fighterjet.jpeg
  264. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:38
    Took me long enough :P
  265. ...I expected clever CSS tricks, given our conversation contex :P
  266. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:39
    Haha
  267. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:39
    I had something to celebrate, and that usually ends with me buying a Lego kit =D
  268. Now put LEDs on it and arduino control them
  269. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:40
    I'll let you do that next time you're here.
  270. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:41
    Time for whisky me thinks.
  271. Yep
  272. @media bottle and (min-abv: 40%)
  273. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:42
    =D
  274. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:43
    and (min-cl: 20)
  275. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:43
    (beetje veel :P)
  276. :O wife bought my fav beer and didn't tell me, so nice surprise in the fridge
  277. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:44
    Go stommepoes!
  278. Chateau Neubourg ++++
  279. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:45
    Hmm, didn't we drink that last time?
  280. Gulpener, blue bottle
  281. Nice pilsener
  282. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:46
    Oh, and on stuff I'm proud of: this is awesome: http://codepen.io/Michiel/full/WbQjzG/ #dzy
  283. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:46
    Gulper <3
  284. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:46
    I love those.
  285. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:46
    Went with Leffe today though.
  286. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:46
    (maybe we should move this to the accessibeer channel.
  287. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:47
    s/./.)/
  288. Nice work on that button, @MichielBijl
  289. heart is a builtin?
  290. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:50
    unicode :)
  291. With that easy a syntax? Nice!
  292. ++ TIL
  293. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:52
    Don't know if it can be optimised. It's still 148 lines of CSS…
  294. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:52
    Should convert it to PostCSS just for the hell of it.
  295. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:53
    Hmm, maybe I should've bought a CodePen pro account instead of that fighter jet
  296. What are perks you like?
  297. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:54
    private pens basically…
  298. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:54
    It's a bargain at 60 euro.
  299. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:54
    But have sort of switched to local development.
  300. 60 euro per wot?
  301. Year?
  302. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:54
    Yeap
  303. 5E/mo, hm
  304. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:55
    Reason I used it so much was that we had a lot of different dev envs. And CodePen makes it real easy to set something up with Less/Sass/Scss/Stylus/whatever you fancy.
  305. It'd be nice if it had a Perl REPL
  306. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:57
    Hmm, though SourceLair supported Perl, but they're fancy with their Python: https://www.sourcelair.com/home
  307. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 22:57
    Not old skool enough
  308. zakim-robot
    Feb 24 23:11
    [techthomas] What do you all think are the most elegant custom gestures for screen reader users on iOS and/or Android?
  309. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 23:14
    @jkva: here it is in modern CSS: http://codepen.io/Michiel/full/XdrmqG/
  310. @MichielBijl that looks interesting. Is that a transpiler?
  311. MichielBijl
    Feb 24 23:16
    Yeap, uses cssnext. I prefer to just install the modules myself, but it's a rather nice collection.
  312. garcialo
    Feb 24 23:17
    @techthomas I don't know what custom gestures people are using. You're talking about the ones users can create themselves, right?
  313. @MichielBijl Yeah, I'll keep an eye on that.
  314. zakim-robot
    Feb 24 23:20
    [techthomas] @garcialo: yes i am curious about gestures that apps create and document for their users to use
  315. zakim-robot
    Feb 24 23:20
    [techthomas] @garcialo: although i’m also interested in some common gestures people create to use themselves… do you know any common ones?
  316. garcialo
    Feb 24 23:32
    Ah, I see. I don't know of any common ones. Just the native ones.
  317. garcialo
    Feb 24 23:33
    Might be a nice survey topic. =)
  318. zakim-robot
    Feb 24 23:35
    [alice] Anyone up for a quick aria-labelledby question?
  319. garcialo
    Feb 24 23:36
    Not really, but you might as well ask it anyway.
  320. zakim-robot
    Feb 24 23:36
    [alice] haha
  321. garcialo
    Feb 24 23:36
    =p
  322. zakim-robot
    Feb 24 23:36
    [alice] So <label for> removes the label from the a11y tree if it's correctly associated with a labelable element
  323. zakim-robot
    Feb 24 23:36
    [alice] AFAIK by design aria-labelledby doesn't do this
  324. zakim-robot
    Feb 24 23:37
    [alice] 1) am I wrong about that?
  325. zakim-robot
    Feb 24 23:37
    [alice] 2) do people have a habit of making the elements referred to via aria-labelledby aria-hidden=true to mimic the native <label> behaviour?
  326. zakim-robot
    Feb 24 23:37
    [alice] (I should probably go read some specs to answer 1, but 2 I am curious about)
  327. garcialo
    Feb 24 23:39
    I didn't know that about one, but I don't think I'd ever suggest a client do 2
  328. garcialo
    Feb 24 23:40
    and I've never heard anyone make the recommendation, so I would say it's not something that people would do
  329. zakim-robot
    Feb 24 23:40
    [alice] so you just have the label text read twice in each case?
  330. Wow, going through today's git logs, an actual font tag. Fetch me my gun Alfred, that there's a rare one!
  331. StommePoes
    Feb 24 23:47
    @powrsurg I got it by pestering the IE team for ever and ever and eventually Chris Heilmann came back for Fronteers and by then he was a MS man so I cornered him in a bar and begged
  332. StommePoes
    Feb 24 23:49
    "So <label for> removes the label from the a11y tree if it's correctly associated with a labelable element" <-- removes the label??
  333. StommePoes
    Feb 24 23:50
    The label wouldn't be read twice with aria-labelledby, if it's interpreted right, because labelledby is supposed to eat any labels.
  334. StommePoes
    Feb 24 23:50
    <label for="foo">WFT?</label><input id="foo" name="foo" aria-labelledby="baz"><p id="baz">Zomg!</p>
  335. StommePoes
    Feb 24 23:50
    should only have Zomg! input edit text.
  336. StommePoes
    Feb 24 23:51
    I think I'm misunderstanding your question though.
  337. StommePoes
    Feb 24 23:52

    You could

    <x-label id="baz">Zomg!</x-label><x-fakeInput is="input" name="foo" aria-labelledby="baz">, that should work.

  338. StommePoes
    Feb 24 23:54
    ok, scotch and bed. bleh