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A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 25th of February 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 00:02
    [alice] @StommePoes let me explain my question better:
  2. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 00:03
    [alice] <label for=foo>hi</label><input id=foo> will end up with an accessibility tree like:
  3. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 00:03
    [alice] - textfield "foo"
  4. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 00:03
    [alice] vs:
  5. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 00:04
    [alice] <span id=foo>hi</span><input labelledby=foo> will end up with an accessibility tree like:
  6. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 00:04
    [alice] - group "hi"
  7. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 00:04
    [alice] - textfield "hi"
  8. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 00:04
    [alice] (just realised "foo" should have been "hi" in my previous a11y tree, hopefully you get the idea)
  9. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 00:04
    [alice] so then, should it be good practice in the second case do add aria-hidden to #foo?
  10. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 00:08
    [marcysutton] Seems like a good idea to me, given that user agents support hidden aria-labelledby
  11. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 00:43
    Depends on how the user navigates the page right? If you jump from input to input there is no point in hiding the label (also no point in not doing it, but still, less markup). If you move from element to element, you get duplicate labels either way, even with native. You can try it here if you don't have an example on hand:
  12. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 00:43
    If I navigate with VO+arrow keys, it'll select both the label, and will repeat that label once I reach the input.
  13. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 00:44
    If I jump to the input via the web rotor for example, it'll only read it once.
  14. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 00:44
    But both should be the same for an aria-labelledby situation I guess.
  15. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 00:44
    I'll setup a proper test page, hang on.
  16. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 00:56
    I only have VoiceOver at my disposal, so don't know what other AT makes of it.
  17. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 00:57
    [alice] @MichielBijl what is your conclusion?
  18. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 00:58
    They behave the same in VoiceOver. And it really depends on how the user navigates.
  19. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 00:58
    Do you have VoiceOver? I can record a video if you want.
  20. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 00:59
    [alice] Using VO+arrow keys as opposed to tab?
  21. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 00:59
    [alice] because obviously with tab you'll only hit the control
  22. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 00:59
    [alice] which makes sense for desktop, but it's weird on a mobile device when you're swiping through and hit the label and then the thing it's labelling
  23. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 01:01
    with VO+arrows you'll get the label twice, but that is true in both cases. With tab you'll only get the control (same for navigating to it by the Web Rotor)
  24. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 01:01
    Not sure VO has a key combo for navigating only form controls
  25. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 01:02
    In any case, you'd get the label twice if you were swiping too right?
  26. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 01:03
    Hmm, seems it skips it.
  27. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 01:03
    Didn't know that.
  28. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 01:04
    That sounds like a bug though, because that way you can't make VoiceOver spell out the label.
  29. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 01:04
    VoiceOver on iOS that is.
  30. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 01:12
    I'm not that familiar with VO on iOS, so there might be a way to make it speel it some other way.
  31. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 01:15
    I've added my conclusion to that page, but it requires further testing with other AT.
  32. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 01:43
    [alice] Weird - seems like the label is excluded from the a11y tree for some types of input but not others
  33. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 01:43
    [alice] for checkbox it's excluded
  34. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 01:44
    [alice] vs for textbox it's not
  35. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 01:45
    [alice] (obviously this only applies to chrome - not sure what the logic is)
  36. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 01:45
    [alice] interesting point about spelling
  37. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 01:45
    That's weird. ChromeVox skips both labels when you navigate with CVox+arrows
  38. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 01:46
    [alice] wow
  39. stevefaulkner
    Feb 25 06:37
    @alice James Teh's article is insightful Woe-ARIA: The Surprisingly but Ridiculously Complicated World of aria-label/ledby http://blog.jantrid.net/2015/12/woe-aria-surprisingly-but-ridiculously.html
  40. jonathantneal
    Feb 25 06:49
    I stayed up extra late just to read that. Worth it. Nyquil and rest now. Thanks for sharing, Steve.
  41. stevefaulkner
    Feb 25 06:55
    :+1:
  42. Mogguh
  43. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 09:41
    Yawn Morning
  44. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 09:46
    I forgot about that James Teh article, that's not very nice of me.
  45. StommePoes
    Feb 25 13:56
    woo! w3c/tr-design#61
  46. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 14:22

    [karlgroves] > w3c/tr-design#61

    Fun times. :wink:

  47. powrsurg
    Feb 25 14:24
    Does anyone have a run down listing difference between VO for iOS vs OS X (if there are any)?
  48. powrsurg
    Feb 25 14:24
    and has anyone done a run down of AMP sites to see how accessible those end up being?
  49. jonathantneal
    Feb 25 14:50
    @powrsurg, there’s an idea. AMPA11Y
  50. critica11y
  51. powrsurg
    Feb 25 14:53
    "The user must be given the ability to decelerate the speed in which the page loads."
  52. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 15:03
    Controls for time based page loading?
  53. powrsurg
    Feb 25 15:06
    ... actually Chrome sort of has that ...
  54. powrsurg
    Feb 25 15:06
    you can configure it to pretend your internet speed is something
  55. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 15:08
    Yeap, comes in very handy
  56. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 15:29
    [wsadler] hey all - I have been trying to find something describing best practice for form submit button disabling until form is valid - I think it's bad but need something to show to designers at my firm to convince them? Can someone point me to a link please?
  57. stevefaulkner
    Feb 25 15:36
    @wsadler - why do you think it's bad?
  58. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 15:37
    [wsadler] only things I have found so far have seemed to lean that way - and it makes sense to me that you don't want to impede the user by preventing the action on the form submit
  59. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 15:37
    [wsadler] if it's OK I'm fine with that - that question then becomes different color? opacity? how to handle text to indicate it is disabled? etc.
  60. stevefaulkner
    Feb 25 15:40
    @wsadler seems like some good reasons why its bad in that post
  61. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 15:42
    [wsadler] yea - there is this too: http://tink.uk/screen-reader-support-for-disabled-read-only-form-fields/ which makes me think there might be some issues with how screen readers treat the disabled button. Would the user know when they get to it that it is disabled because they missed something above? Seems better to let them click and then have the focus switch to the first form error so they can correct it easily.
  62. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 15:43
    [wsadler] the readers not reading the text in the disabled inputs is troubling to me there too... I use that a lot on things like a password change form where I show the username but in a disabled input... will need to rethink that
  63. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 15:53
    I've not worked with disabling buttons, but guess it could work, but you'd want to do it in a progressive enhancement way (start with a plain HTML form and server side validation).
  64. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 15:55
    Still, even with inline validation, you'd have to mark a field as required and throw an error message if you tab/navigate out of it while it's empty/invalid.
  65. stevefaulkner
    Feb 25 15:55
    @LjWatson article of yours is 5 years old http://tink.uk/screen-reader-support-for-disabled-read-only-form-fields/ is it still reliable?
  66. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 15:58
    [wsadler] yea probably not
  67. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 16:01
    [wsadler] I think having the submit disabled is probably a good usability thing but you can get the same feedback from clicking it and seeing the error messages on the individual form inputs so if it causes more a11y complexity I am leaning toward dumping it.
  68. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 16:01
    [wsadler] just wondering if there was an accepted best practice for it - thanks for the feedback!
  69. ryoia
    Feb 25 16:02
    hi all, i'm trying to figure out how to make my error message being read by JAWS. i currently have role="alert" and aria-atomic="true" on the error <p>. since my error message will be added to the dom afterwards, i also added aria-live="assertive" on the parent element that appears when the page loads. but still not working..
  70. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 16:02
    And if it is decided that it should be kept as it is now, make sure the return key is also captured where necessary. So no submits from the return key. At least then it is consistent :)
  71. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 16:03
    aria-errormessage to the rescue!
  72. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 16:03
    No that is not implemented anywhere yet :(
  73. ryoia
    Feb 25 16:04
    thanks stevefaulkner, reading
  74. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 16:04
    This might include some interesting links to error displaying related things: https://github.com/MichielBijl/error
  75. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 16:06
    Like this one, by the one (and thankfully only) stevefaulkner: https://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2016/01/simple-inline-error-message-pattern/
  76. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 16:06
    We should have more Steve's though.
  77. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 16:07
    If they can clone a sheep, they surely can clone an Australian right?
  78. ryoia
    Feb 25 16:07
    thanks MichielBijl!
  79. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 16:09
    [wsadler] So I'm guessing that onblur is right out for error message display? :simple_smile:
  80. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 16:10
    I don't understand the question?
  81. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 16:11
    [wsadler] looking at that url from stevefaulkner - it is possible in angular to use onblur to fire after 500ms or so to display the error along with tabbing away or activating submit
  82. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 16:12
    [wsadler] It seems like that might cause issues with screen readers
  83. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 16:36
    Does anyone know of a good Markdown editor for OS X?
  84. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 16:36
    I tried iA writer, but that doesn't work for me, can't get it to consistently save as .md files in the folder I want.
  85. StommePoes
    Feb 25 16:55
    "I use that a lot on things like a password change form where I show the username but in a disabled input..." <-- maybe some of those should be made readonly rather than disabled? If the point is that users should be able to see/read them...
  86. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 16:57

    [karlgroves] >Does anyone know of a good Markdown editor for OS X?

    I use Macdown. Also give Marked a try

  87. ryoia
    Feb 25 16:57
    setAttributes for role alerts and aria-invalid when putting the dom element into the page worked! thanks all! :D
  88. MichielBijl @MichielBijl Thanks Karl!
  89. ryoia
    Feb 25 17:11
    hmm it only works the first time it seems. when the error appears the second time it doesn't speak :worried:
  90. stevefaulkner
    Feb 25 17:41
    @ryoia probably need to remove and reset attributes
  91. ryoia
    Feb 25 17:41
    i tried to set the attributes to the opposite but that didn't work, let me try removing them
  92. ryoia
    Feb 25 17:47
    ohh weird, i removed attributes for both alerts before setAttributes again, but one of them is repeating, not the other one
  93. stevefaulkner
    Feb 25 17:57
    are they being displayed at same time?
  94. ryoia
    Feb 25 18:05
    they are not. one of them is when user doesn't type enough characters, the other one displays when the result is not found
  95. ryoia
    Feb 25 18:05
    if i type 3 o's then keep typing o's, the no result found error keeps being spoken.
  96. ryoia
    Feb 25 18:05
    but if i type 1 or 2 characters, the not-enough-characters error only being spoken once, and won't get spoken if the no result found error always spoke
  97. ryoia
    Feb 25 18:06
    but i removed attributes before set attributes on both
  98. stevefaulkner
    Feb 25 18:19
    hmm its difficult to comment further without demo+ knowing AT/browser versions
  99. jnurthen
    Feb 25 18:51
    Notes that JAWS17 live region stuff with FF is completely borked at the moment
  100. ryoia
    Feb 25 18:51
    yeah. it's JAWS17 with IE10. i'll try to debug more and paste code here if still not working.
  101. jnurthen
    Feb 25 18:51
    JAWS and IE is ok IME
  102. jnurthen
    Feb 25 18:52
    try FF & NVDA and see if you get the same results. Good to test on multiple platforms and AT to decide if it your code which is broken or the platform
  103. ryoia
    Feb 25 18:53
    good suggestion, jnurthen, trying FF
  104. jnurthen
    Feb 25 18:54
    but note - live regions in FF with JAWS17 are very broken at the moment. test using NVDA or JAWS 16 there.
  105. ryoia
    Feb 25 18:54
    yup, FF works just fine, it repeats the alerts no problem
  106. ryoia
    Feb 25 18:55
    only ie10
  107. ryoia
    Feb 25 18:55
    or ie in general i assume
  108. jnurthen
    Feb 25 18:55
    strange because i don't believe the browser does anything much with live regions. It is pretty much all the AT's responsibility
  109. ryoia
    Feb 25 18:55
    trying again in IE
  110. ryoia
    Feb 25 18:56
    also, it says 'alert' + alert message on FF, but only alert message on IE
  111. ryoia
    Feb 25 18:56
    i like the FF version better
  112. jnurthen
    Feb 25 18:59
    yeah - the alert role probably isn't mapped in IE
  113. ryoia
    Feb 25 19:00
    same result, let me debug more..
  114. jnurthen
    Feb 25 19:01
    if it works in FF it is probably an AT bug
  115. ryoia
    Feb 25 19:03
    i'm also using the trial version..not sure if that makes a difference
  116. jnurthen
    Feb 25 19:03
    we find differences using the trial version yes
  117. ryoia
    Feb 25 19:04
    mm ok
  118. ryoia
    Feb 25 19:05
    thanks for everybody's help!
  119. powrsurg
    Feb 25 19:42
    is it possible to style a progressbar with a CSS animation? It seems like styling it up is something that deals with the shadow DOM and I don't see any way to make a shadow DOM element access a keyframe defined in the parent element
  120. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 19:43
    Good question.
  121. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 19:44
    role=progressbar =P
  122. powrsurg
    Feb 25 19:45
    I ... really don't want to rebuild all of this to NOT use an HTML5 element just to add an animation ...
  123. powrsurg
    Feb 25 19:46
    I mean, I could accomplish it with an animated gif instead of the linear gradient I had now ...
  124. jnurthen
    Feb 25 19:49
    I'm assuming you have probably read this and there is nothing to help there - https://css-tricks.com/html5-progress-element/
  125. jnurthen
    Feb 25 19:50
    I have never used the <progress> element myself
  126. powrsurg
    Feb 25 19:54
    Yes, I have been all over that article. That appears to be written before Shadow DOM became a thing
  127. jnurthen
    Feb 25 19:54
    ok - I assumed you had
  128. powrsurg
    Feb 25 19:54
    I've got a file upload I was adding a progress bar on
  129. jnurthen
    Feb 25 19:55
    I've got to say - I'm sure ours are all custom with role=progressbar so they look the same cross platform
  130. powrsurg
    Feb 25 20:00
    I've been able to style the uploads how I like so far. I just wanted to add an animation too but it doesn't seem possible
  131. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 20:11
    @Karl Groves: I'm now trying out FoldingText, it's free and looks more like what I want to use.
  132. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 20:11
    Macdown is nice, but lacks the “focus” mode sort of feature.
  133. powrsurg
    Feb 25 21:53
    damn it, Drupal ....
  134. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 22:05
    I'm unfamiliar with Drupal, but what is that log thing?
  135. @MichielBijl: Seems a log of database queries, so you can see whats' going on in your system.
  136. And from looking at the patches, instead of properly separating data and presentation, they generate HTML in their controllers. ¯\(ツ)
  137. Why this is not a table with a pager, I don't know.
  138. sophieschoice
    Feb 25 22:24
    Of all CMS’es I like MODx the best, because you have total control on the lay-out (even with what you would call plugins in Wordpress-land).
  139.  if (!empty($rows)) {    $i = 0;    foreach ($rows as $row) {      $i++;      $zebra = ($i % 2) == 0 ? 'even' : 'odd';      $output .= "<div class='devel-querylog devel-querylog-$zebra clear-block'>";      $output .= theme('devel_querylog_row', $row);      $output .= "</div>";    } }
    
  140. Something something nth-child
  141. also

    • iterating over empty list is fine, compiler optimises it away
    • instead of using a separate counter variable, just iterate over 0...n on $i and use $rows[$i]

    Glad I don't use drupal

  142. In PHP, are variables by default lexical to their nearest block scope?
  143. Ah, docs say only function scope and global scope. ok. So no block scope.
  144. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 22:54
    [karlgroves] IMO variable scope is much more sane in PHP than JS.
  145. You mean the hoisting? Yeah. At least ES6 gives us proper lexical scope using let
  146. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 22:54
    [karlgroves] Also $this/ this is more sane. :wink:
  147. Coming from Perl I'm so used to lexical block scope, when I started a job in Python the scoping differences bit me in the beginning
  148. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 22:55
    this in javascript is like viewports in CSS; you're never quite sure which one it is.
  149. It's just context
  150. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 22:57
    [hmig] halp! does anyone know how to fix audio being disabled for virtualbox win10 vm on mac?
  151. Now with the ES6 lambdas, it's binds this lexically like a good little language
  152. hmig: what have you tried?
  153. hmig: did it ever work and now stop working?
  154. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 22:58
    [hmig] it never worked
  155. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 22:58
    [hmig] it is disabled
  156. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 22:58
    [hmig] via the VM settings and there’s no way to change it http://screencast.com/t/ocXilKZ5Zv
  157. hmig: have you installed guest additions?
  158. hmig: what do the logs say? Are you able to toggle the audio checkbox in the audio settings?
  159. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 22:59
    [ccwilcox] @hmig: so if you go into the Settings of the VM, can you not check the Enable Audio box?
  160. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:00
    [hmig] I cannot change (check) the audio settings
  161. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:00
    [hmig] they are disabled :disappointed:
  162. hmig: nothing in the logs?
  163. Seems it's just not detected, sounds like host os problem
  164. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:01
    [hmig] any idea how to fix it?
  165. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:01
    [ccwilcox] @hmig: but you can change other settings?
  166. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:02
    [hmig] I can change network, ect
  167. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:02
    [hmig] I see the same isse with usb ports
  168. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:02
    [hmig] but I don’t need those
  169. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:02
    Is it running?
  170. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:02
    Sometimes VB locks me out of changing settings if the box is running.
  171. hmig: does it show you any available audio devices?
  172. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:03
    But that's probably me not understanding VB.
  173. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:03
    [hmig] It is not running
  174. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:03
    [ccwilcox] I think you can't change the audio to a Saved VM. Power it off and see if you can enable it
  175. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:03
    [hmig] no available audio devices and I can’t add any
  176. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:03
    [hmig] @ccwilcox: trying now
  177. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:04
    [hmig] huzzah!!!
  178. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:04
    [hmig] @ccwilcox: I think I owe you :beers:
  179. heh :) ccwilcox++
  180. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:05
    [hmig] I reinstalled the VM more times than I’d like to admit
  181. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:05
    [ccwilcox] no prob, lucky thing I had a VM guest running at the time to test
  182. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:05
    [hmig] and redownloaded...
  183. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:06
    [hmig] happy :dancer:
  184. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:06
    hmig, might be worth it to just make a Snapshot ;)
  185. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:07
    [hmig] yep - after I get the rest of my set up done … that will be the next step
  186. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:07
    Also helps with activation stuff.
  187. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:07
    [ccwilcox] The reason why I have the VM running was to check if what I was seeing in Firefox for Mac's handling of "Skip to" links was the same in Firefox for Windows (it is)
  188. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:08
    [hmig] I have several set up to test patterns
  189. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:08
    [hmig] and record differences
  190. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:08
    IE6-11 here :P
  191. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:08
    I love IE6
  192. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:08
    (not really)
  193. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:08
    [hmig] yikes!
  194. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:09
    I just love it because it reminds me of yesteryears when we still used center and font tags.
  195. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:09
    [ccwilcox] Why does Firefox seem to set the focus for a followed in-page link to just past the element (i.e. Shift-Tab puts the focus on the element)?
  196. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:11
    [hmig] Not sure what you mean
  197. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:11
    [hmig] example link?
  198. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:12
    [hmig] ? seems fine
  199. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:12
    [ccwilcox] In Firefox, if you click the Skip to Main Content link, do you see the red outline around the IMS link?
  200. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:13
    [hmig] no, but I have mine set up for the cursor
  201. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:13
    [ccwilcox] Because in Safari, Chrome, IE11, that's what I get but in Firefox (44.0.2 OS X or Windows 7), the IMS link doesn't have focus, I have to Shift-Tab back for it to be focused
  202. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:14
    [ccwilcox] With or without "Always use the cursor keys to navigate within pages" checked, in Firefox I get the same results
  203. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:14
    [hmig] I have mine set for a11y testing: http://screencast.com/t/xpsrRuPf
  204. jnurthen
    Feb 25 23:15
    I see the same as you with FF 38 ESR
  205. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:15
    [hmig] it just jumps the cursor done for me http://screencast.com/t/zyNMWxp6CkfH
  206. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:15
    [hmig] FF 43
  207. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:16
    [ccwilcox] @hmig: yep, that's what I see when I have the cursor enabled
  208. jnurthen
    Feb 25 23:16
    & with FF46 doesn't seem to work wither.... seems like a bug to me
  209. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:16
    [ccwilcox] If Firefox was really putting the focus on the <a > element, you would be able to press Enter to follow the link, but you can't
  210. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:17
    [hmig] I see
  211. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:17
    [ccwilcox] I don't have a screen reader installed in this Windows VM, I don't know what they would read after following the Skip to Link
  212. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:18
    [hmig] VO just says you are currently on a link
  213. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:18
    [hmig] yikes
  214. jnurthen
    Feb 25 23:18
    aaaarggghhhh w3c has forbidden us due to abuse again.....
  215. garcialo
    Feb 25 23:18
    @jnurthen Please stop abusing their poor servers.
  216. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:18
    [hmig] lol - I used to get that
  217. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:19
    [hmig] running automated tests?
  218. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:19
    [ccwilcox] Does VO generally work with Firefox? I assumed it would be poor
  219. jnurthen
    Feb 25 23:19
    nope - just work for a big company with lots of people hitting the server through a proxy
  220. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:19
    [karlgroves] VO & FF is no bueno
  221. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:19
    [hmig] @ccwilcox: It works fine
  222. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:19
    [ccwilcox] @jnurthen: yes, seems like a Firefox bug, not sure how to find/file it in Bugzilla, there are many open tickets containing "focus"
  223. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:19
    jnurthen, just install the local version :P
  224. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:19
    [hmig] … maybe I’m just used to it
  225. garcialo
    Feb 25 23:20
    Or just post misinformation and wait for @stevefaulkner to correct you.
  226. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:20
    [hmig] :disappointed:
  227. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:20
    @garcialo that seems to work for me…
  228. jnurthen
    Feb 25 23:20
    JAWS just reads "blank"
  229. garcialo
    Feb 25 23:20
    Same
  230. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:22
    [karlgroves] @hmig turns out the Googz suggests that there may be some work from Mozilla to support VO. As always, the oracle of @stevef will weigh in. Generally I just refer to VO & Safari as being the proper combo for best VO experience (deteriorating as it may)
  231. jnurthen
    Feb 25 23:22
    I've heard recently that VO + Chrome actually works better
  232. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:23
    [karlgroves] Not IME
  233. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:23
    [hmig] I start with VO + chrome and then switch around
  234. jnurthen
    Feb 25 23:23
    to be honest i test using VO rarely as not many of our customers are on macs
  235. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:24
    VO+Chrome seems to work quite alright, but VO+Safari is the only officially supported combo.
  236. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:24
    VO+Chrome sometimes works better, other times it sucks.
  237. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:24
    [hmig] true story
  238. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:24
    [karlgroves] I test primarily with VO & Safari. When something doesn’t work (and it should), I’ll switch to Windows & JAWS/ NVDA
  239. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:26
    [hmig] I love all of my tools in Chrome, which is why it’s my starting point
  240. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:26
    [karlgroves] +1 to chrome, esp. devtools in chrome which kick the crap out of Safari. Literally the only time I use Safari is with VO
  241. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:27
    I can't decide between the two.
  242. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:27
    Safari just gives better battery life.
  243. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:27
    [hmig] same and to debug mobile safari issues :wink:
  244. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:27
    12 hours of browsing, don't try that with Chrome…
  245. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:27
    Yeap, debug mobile safari is a very nice feature.
  246. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:28
    But Chrome has some nice a11y features like the audit thing.
  247. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:28
    [hmig] very nice...
  248. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:28
    Doesn't always make sense, but it is a nice thing to have.
  249. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:29
    [hmig] I love using aXe + the a11y property inspector
  250. jnurthen
    Feb 25 23:29
    personally I prefer the aXe audit to the native chrome one
  251. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:30
    I've never used that you know that?
  252. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:30
    [hmig] zomg :hearts:
  253. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:30
    [hmig] such a time saver
  254. jnurthen
    Feb 25 23:31
    very few false positives which is a big +
  255. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:31
    [hmig] ^agreed
  256. jnurthen
    Feb 25 23:31
    conservative rule set... I think they share some common code (or were at least looking into sharing) with chrome dev tools and a few other folks
  257. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:32
    So it's an npm module?
  258. jnurthen
    Feb 25 23:33
    core is yes
  259. jnurthen
    Feb 25 23:33
    plugins for FF and Chrome
  260. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:33
    Ah, good.
  261. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:36
    Oh, and a plus for Safari is tab syncing between iOS and OS X.
  262. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:37
    And I won't use Chrome on iOS, they don't even offer DNT.
  263. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:37
    And you can't change the search engine to DDG.
  264. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:37
    [hmig] lol
  265. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:38
    [hmig] I only use safari on ios, but bc I’m too lazy to switch
  266. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:38
    [hmig] :smile:
  267. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:38
    [hmig] I’m assuming most regular users are too
  268. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:38
    Well, and you can't change the default browser…
  269. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:38
    [hmig] so, good for testing device
  270. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:38
    [hmig] interesting ...
  271. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:39
    [hmig] in a bad kinda way
  272. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:39
    Of course there is plenty to hate in Safari too, the fuzzy search for URL's sucks…
  273. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:40
    [hmig] i hate that they hide the url
  274. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:41
    You can re-enable that.
  275. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:41
    [ccwilcox] @hmig: yes, first thing I do in new OS X profile is Safari Preferences > Advanced > Show full website address
  276. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:44
    [hmig] O_O
  277. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:44
    [hmig] whoa
  278. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:45
    [hmig] @ccwilcox: I def owe you some :beers: at this rate
  279. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:45
    [hmig] fixed my audio. fixed safari url.
  280. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:46
    [hmig] srsly happy about the audio thing
  281. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:46
    [hmig] I was losing my mind
  282. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:47
    @hmig, there isn't enough contrast between the links and background in your website's footer ;)
  283. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:47
    [hmig] cyber stalker
  284. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:47
    [hmig] lol
  285. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:47
    [hmig] yea …
  286. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:47
    I know it was build in a day and all, but maybe you can fix it in your next one day development iteration =D
  287. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:47
    [hmig] It’s been awaile since I touched that site poor site
  288. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:48
    2.6:1…
  289. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:48
    [hmig] your own kids are always the ones the suffer the most
  290. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:48
    [hmig] shoemakers kids
  291. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:48
    Yeap
  292. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:49
    [hmig] I have a new design in the works
  293. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:49
    That's why it took me about six months to design my website 🙈
  294. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:49
    [hmig] but I’ve been working on an article and looking for a j.o.b.
  295. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:49
    Which is just a yellow header + text
  296. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:50
    [hmig] lol
  297. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:50
    But, it took a long time to get the typography right.
  298. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:50
    Anyway, TunnelBear is looking for a UI designer :)
  299. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:51
    [hmig] remote?
  300. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:51
    Not sure, you can ask them: https://www.tunnelbear.com/jobs/designer
  301. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:52
    Doesn't mention remote, but you can always ask.
  302. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:52
    [hmig] thx - I’ll check it out
  303. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:52
    [hmig] the bear is super-cute
  304. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:53
    =D
  305. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:53
    There service is pretty neat, but they lack a11y: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqS8W37ztdw
  306. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:55
    [hmig] my speciality
  307. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:55
    [hmig] slash obsession
  308. MichielBijl
    Feb 25 23:55
    :+1:
  309. zakim-robot
    Feb 25 23:56
    [hmig] :simple_smile: makes me happy