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A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 2nd of March 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 03:07
    [kevinchao89] What I'm not sure about is if a node in a treeview can be an edit box or drop down list.
  2. jnurthen
    Mar 02 03:11
    No it can't. You could (on activation of a node with enter or F2 to switch into 'edit" mode) move focus to an associated edit box/drop down but you would have to have a mode thing like grids for editing.
  3. jnurthen
    Mar 02 03:11
    if a node were an edit box/drop down it would steal down arrow and you would never be able to navigate the list
  4. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 04:58
    [kevinchao89] Thanks, but back to drawing board, as this won't work on mobile web
  5. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 05:01
    [kevinchao89] Nested list isn't optimal and treeview won't work. Why HTML & ARIA?
  6. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 07:47
    Morning slackers
  7. =_=
  8. StommePoes
    Mar 02 10:21
    So... my Twitz is filled with a long hard discussion/rant about MathML.
  9. StommePoes
    Mar 02 10:22
    So all this time, I've heard how MathML is supposed to be a standard to make math's meaning available to and via browsers, is in the spec, and that the main issue is lack of support in many browsers.
  10. StommePoes
    Mar 02 10:22
    Not counting all that stuff @Shepazu said about the whole math spec being unimaginably huge and the MathML for browsers part is a very, very tiny part.
  11. stevefaulkner
    Mar 02 10:23
    Thanks to @IanPouncey :clap: :clap: from today onwards any discussion in the chat archives has a permalink via the timestamp, for example http://w3c.github.io/a11ySlackers/archives/2016/03/2016-03-01.html#chat-item-50
  12. stevefaulkner
    Mar 02 10:24
    useful for referencing discussions
  13. StommePoes
    Mar 02 10:24
    But mathy math people replied to me that MathML was a pain in the ass and pretty much useless, compared to (in simple cases) the alt text Wikipedia uses in their math formulae images
  14. StommePoes
    Mar 02 10:25
    And others chimed in to say how ascii-math should be a thing, instead of MathML
  15. StommePoes
    Mar 02 10:25
    And that some students deliberately block MathJax so they can get to that ascii-like fallback
  16. StommePoes
    Mar 02 10:26
    ...and beyond all that, that MathML can't really do anything for post-secondary math, but I think everyone already knew that. The focus now is the k-12 area.
  17. StommePoes
    Mar 02 10:27
    But so, does it make sense to push more MathML support if real-life students can't generally make heads or tails of it, compared to ascii? What does MathML offer, and if it's for more complex math that's too hard to ascii, then how can it be okay that it fails everything beyond algebra?
  18. I think MathML is a failed web standard. It never had support from browser vendors (all rendering code is volunteer contributed, almost entirely unpaid). No browser ever sat on the MathWG (ok, Murray Sargent from MS Office but that doesn't help). MML is also not being developed, just minor bug fixes at this point. Content MathML is a complete failure for providing semantics for the web (the only known use cases are procedural / computation / CAS). PresentationMathML is supposed to only do layout but since it's the only thing that even barely works, it's brutally squeezed into providing semantics -- something that people think is feasible only because Neil Soiffer was able to write heuristics to make sense of it. so it's a bit like saying creating TeX was easy because Knuth could do it or that images are fine for a11y because Abby can do OCR on them. Add to that that few languages have the history of English with Nemeth/MathSpeak being much older than any of this and providing a basis (whereas I hear here in Germany blind students learn LaTeX in middle school). So PresentationMathML is not supposed to provide semantics, it also doesn't help with layout much on the web -- and imho it really shouldn't because CSS should and MathML has some minor and some major incompatibilities with CSS while all the while CSS is gettting better and better allowing (with ugly work) perfect math rendering (no JS involved). Besides, when you look at HTML5 you can throw out roughly 90% of MathML anyway; it's just duplicated. And to top things off the MathWG charter is running out this month with no continuation in sight and MathML is still stuck in print-content for math, not even providing anything even slightly graphical (e.g. commutative diagrams). Finally, its community is badly broken, with the "document language people" (aka XML folks) being adamant that it's brilliant (and yes, it's ok there) whereas those people that have enabled math rendering for years on the web are not being helped one bit by the perennial promise "once MathML is implemented, all will be fine"; it's not because even the best implementation in Gecko is terrible for development as it is shoddily integrated, with missing or broken API integration for style, dataset, event handlers. IMHO, what we need is a bottom up effort, helping those doing rendering with improvements in CSS, help those doing accessibility by providing a proper ARIA module and an extensible way of embedding a11y relevant information, and help those wanting to take the document language further to do that without messing up the progress of math and science on the web.
  19. sigh.
  20. that was a bit involved.
  21. And basically my notes for a longer draft on my blarg.
  22. Also, @StommePoes there are at least two MathML issues on IE/Edge already. They even rank pretty high in terms of votes. Just like Blink.
  23. stevefaulkner
    Mar 02 10:59
    @pkra you ok with me referencing your words?
  24. I'm aware with this being a public chat room, yes :-)
  25. Note also
  26. About some conversations with W3C on this.
  27. StommePoes
    Mar 02 11:02
    Thanks
  28. StommePoes
    Mar 02 11:02
    So at CSUN I was planning on maybe hitting the auto-nemeth-mathml talk, though Cam said that actually that shouldn't be too difficult and you could do one-to-one.
  29. StommePoes
    Mar 02 11:03
    But how much is Nemeth a thing outside the US/English speaking world?
  30. @StommePoes AFAIK, Nemeth is En only. I heard there's a similarly old system in Japan, maybe CJK (to make sense of those silly western symbols).
  31. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 11:21
    Interesting stuff pkra. That could be a blog post :P
  32. @MichielBijl it will be. I promise.
  33. and there's more...
  34. and more nuances to be had.
  35. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 11:23
    Good, could use some markup =)
  36. Indeed it could :)
  37. I didn't know what Gitter does with enter or shift-enter so I opted to skip that.
  38. StommePoes
    Mar 02 11:37
    I really dislike markdown... liever HTML
  39. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 12:06
    What's wrong with markdown?
  40. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 12:06
    Or rather, what do you dislike about it?
  41. StommePoes
    Mar 02 12:22
    I feel a huge lack of control
  42. StommePoes
    Mar 02 12:22
    And I always, always, always somehow end up with unwanted <p></p>'s and <br>s no matter what.
  43. StommePoes
    Mar 02 12:23
    I'm constantly needing to check the rendered markup to see if my markDOWN is any good.
  44. StommePoes
    Mar 02 12:23
    So when I have to write markdown, a lot of it tends to just be HTML anyway
  45. StommePoes
    Mar 02 12:23
    I can do the #headings and paragrraphs, but anything more sophisticated than that, I switch to something I feel I can control
  46. StommePoes
    Mar 02 12:31
    Lawlz: Stephen Hay: "Okay. If you're writing CSS without a preprocessor, it's not "artisanal" CSS. It's just CSS. Geez." Stuart Robinson: "hand crafted is ok though." Stephen Hay: "hand-crafted is always okay. But then one could also say that about scss, IMHO."
  47. StommePoes
    Mar 02 12:34
    cue mentions of locally-grown hand-picked selectors and gluten free.
  48. StommePoes
    Mar 02 12:34
    Well, my CSS was gluten free before anyone ever cared.
  49. StommePoes
    Mar 02 12:34
    Where mah tats?
  50. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 12:37
    [karlgroves] BRB going to write more markdown
  51. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 12:37
    [karlgroves] Actually I’m on the fence. I like markdown a lot other than tables. HATE doing tables in markdown
  52. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 12:37
    I'm down with markup, but markdown is pretty good too for simple stuff.
  53. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 12:38
    Tables suck in MD>
  54. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 12:40
    [karlgroves] And woe be to you who mix markdown and HTML. Some parsers really don’t like it. So then you’re still stuck with suffering through writing the damn table in MD
  55. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 12:44
    I like MD for blog post etc
  56. jkva @jkva wonders what prompted the "CSS without preprocessors is just CSS" utterances on twitter
  57. I use <font> for my HTML, it's just a more real, authentic way of styling.
  58. Closer to the code, you know.
  59. And XHTML, of course. But ironically.
  60. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 13:01
    [karlgroves] lol
  61. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 13:01
    [karlgroves] True HTML hipsters use HTML 3.2
  62. Heh. On a typewriter!
  63. Or one of those usb-converted IBM Model M keyboards
  64. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 13:04
    [karlgroves] clack clack clack clack Niiice
  65. Hm, guess not. TIL.
  66. Yeah - so obviously not. Trying to recall if there was something with IE compatibility
  67. Maybe it was just

    Note: Most modern standards-aware browsers, like Mozilla Firefox, Opera, and Safari, should add quotes around text enclosed within the <q> element.
    Some browsers, like Internet Explorer, may not make any sort of style change for quotations, but it is possible to apply a style rule.

    from https://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Web/HTML/Element/q

  68. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 13:13
    Why would q be deprecated?
  69. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 13:14
    It's not its fault the new James Bond movies suck.
  70. @MichielBijl It's not, I guess I mentally placed in with things like <b> and <i>
  71. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 13:14
    Those aren't deprecated either…
  72. @MichielBijl Neither is <font>, officially
  73. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 13:16
    It is AFAIK
  74. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 13:16
    Not in the spec anymore…
  75. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 13:16
    [karlgroves] <font> was deprecated in HTML 4.01 and obsoleted in HTML5
  76. I stand corrected.
  77. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 13:17
    You got a standing desk now?
  78. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 13:18
    [karlgroves] They moved to referring to things as “obsolete” rather than “deprecated"
  79. yup
  80. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 13:18
    Ha
  81. (That is my actual desk)
  82. alt="A pretentious hipster standing desk"
  83. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 13:19
    I need to build a desk…
  84. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 13:19
    Sitting on the couch all day will not do wonders for my butt
  85. That's what heavy squats are for
  86. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 13:20
    I don't even do normal squats.
  87. The things I learn here ++
  88. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 14:01
    Gaaah, new spec stylesheet has issues…
  89. StommePoes
    Mar 02 14:04
    @jkva @karlgroves I reviewed that HTML tags article
  90. StommePoes
    Mar 02 14:04
    sorta unofficially as it was on its way out
  91. StommePoes
    Mar 02 14:05
    and while he didn't mention textarea, it was checking some of those that I discovered rows and cols aren't required anymore (cols in a special case which was also new to me)
  92. StommePoes
    Mar 02 14:06
    So wait, I don't see u in the obsolete list, I thought they obsoleted it and then said "but it's okay for Chinese proper names"
  93. StommePoes
    Mar 02 14:07
    s used to be short for strikethrough, wonder if they'll ever start saying it's now short for "substitution"
  94. StommePoes
    Mar 02 14:08
    since it's zombied its way back into the spec, it's taken some meaning del used to carry.
  95. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 14:23
    [karlgroves] :+1:
  96. StommePoes
    Mar 02 14:24
    Jkva you got tickets?
  97. @StommePoes For spring? I got a ticket, yes
  98. StommePoes
    Mar 02 14:25
    w00ts.
  99. StommePoes
    Mar 02 14:25
    I'll be heckling from the audience, Karl
  100. vdurhhe
    Mar 02 14:25
    I like that desk. Where I work, they give you this funny little platform to stand on your regular sitting desk.
  101. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 14:25
    Karl are you in Amsterdam the next Saturday too?
  102. StommePoes
    Mar 02 14:26
    Heather do you mean a thing for your laptop?
  103. StommePoes
    Mar 02 14:26
    Heather btw if you didn't, scroll up to read the mathML bit
  104. vdurhhe
    Mar 02 14:27
    Yes, that's the one. It's a platform to sit your laptop on.
  105. vdurhhe
    Mar 02 14:27
    OK, I'll check it out.
  106. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 14:30
    [dean] What’s happening in Amsterdam next Saturday?
  107. I think MichielBijl means the Saturday after the spring con?
  108. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 14:32
    Yes
  109. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 14:32
    [dean] ahhhh gotcha I misread
  110. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 14:32
    [dean] as you were :wink:
  111. Wait, isn't this the same day as Dutch Perl workshop?
  112. Who plans all their conferences on April 1?!
  113. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 14:33
    What a joke…
  114. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 14:33
    Did you buy tickets to both?
  115. No, NLPW is free
  116. Oh well, Perl is dead anyway
  117. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 14:36
    [deborah_kaplan] hey!
  118. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 14:37
    [deborah_kaplan] be nice to Perl. That's where I keep all my regular expressions. :P
  119. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 14:37
    [deborah_kaplan] ;)
  120. s/dead/resting/ # that ok?
  121. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 14:58
    [deborah_kaplan] heh. yep.
  122. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 16:34
    [dna] hi a11y slackers, does firefox exhibit very different tab behavior than other browsers for anyone else?
  123. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 16:34
    [dna] it doesnt seem to set focus on links... ever?
  124. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 16:35
    [dna] or is there a setting i'm missing?
  125. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 16:42
    Are you on a Mac?
  126. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 16:42
    dna: are you on a Mac?
  127. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 16:46
    alt=Systems.app - Keyboard - Shortcuts shows setting to change tab behaviour https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/ap6UtgOu/Screen%20Shot%202016-03-02%20at%2017.44.44.png
  128. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 16:46
    If so, make sure that is set to “All controls”
  129. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 17:06
    [dna] hey MichielBijl I am
  130. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 17:06
    [dna] ah okay, great
  131. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 17:06
    [dna] thanks!
  132. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 18:29
    [karlgroves] :cr
  133. :cry:?
  134. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 18:32
    Karl, are you in Amsterdam April 2nd?
  135. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 18:34
    [karlgroves] Indeed
  136. :beers:
  137. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 18:37
    [karlgroves] Maybe I’ll convince @marcysutton to go on a bike ride
  138. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 18:37
    [marcysutton] YES
  139. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 18:37
    [marcysutton] :smile:
  140. Have you seen the weather?!
  141. Hopefully by April it'll be a bit better
  142. Currently it just gets wetter
  143. @karlgroves, have you biked in Amsterdam before?
  144. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 18:39
    [karlgroves] Nope. Never been
  145. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 18:39
    @Karl and Marcy, we should totally go biking.
  146. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 18:39
    Maybe not Amsterdam though…
  147. Yeah (about AmsterdaM)
  148. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 18:40
    [karlgroves] If it is wet outside I’ll just eat brownies, I mean, uh...
  149. Heh
  150. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 18:40
    [marcysutton] haha
  151. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 18:40
    [marcysutton] I LOVED biking in Amsterdam but I’m a bit nutty that way
  152. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 18:40
    [karlgroves] Actually, who am I kidding. Half brownie
  153. There are pretty parts where you can bike
  154. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 18:40
    We can get a water bike 8)
  155. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 18:41
    [marcysutton] I also loved mashing around Paris on my cross bike, which only became frightening once I got into a cab and saw how they drove around cyclists
  156. I used to travel through Amsterdam on my kickbike :) cobblestones suck for that though.
  157. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 18:42
    Oeh oeh, we should get a beer bike!
  158. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 18:42
    [karlgroves] +1 to beer bike
  159. NO I FORBID
  160. Seriously that's so campy
  161. MichielBijl @MichielBijl invites jkva
  162. I don't like beer
  163. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 18:42
    prrf
  164. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 18:42
    [karlgroves] Fine, I’ll ride my own bike and drink beer
  165. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 18:42
    +1 to that
  166. Seriously dude, beer bike is for bachelor parties and tourists
  167. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 18:42
    [karlgroves] would be a tourist
  168. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 18:43
    I don't live in Amsterdam, I can be a tourist :P
  169. Well yeah but not a tourist tourist
  170. Eh, I'm not yer mum
  171. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 18:43
    Fine, we'll rent a beer bike in San Diego…
  172. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 18:44
    We could go to the 200 beer café
  173. whelp
  174. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 18:44
    [karlgroves] The beer bike in San Diego is lameness, if I recall
  175. I'd rather just go to some good craft beer pub. I hear there is some craft beer in Cali
  176. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 18:45
    That website too
  177. <meta name="keywords" content="false, true,
  178. wat
  179. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 18:45
    [karlgroves] @marcysutton’s first CSUN we went to the Karl Strauss brewpub, but there’s actually better
  180. StommePoes
    Mar 02 18:46
    the beer bike is only good if you've already had so much beer you don't mind seeming like a football hooligan in public
  181. StommePoes
    Mar 02 18:46
    but the driver has to be sober
  182. You tend to get a driver with them
  183. StommePoes
    Mar 02 18:46
    oh?
  184. StommePoes
    Mar 02 18:46
    I thought one of the group was the driver
  185. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 18:46
    correction: the driver has to be an ober
  186. StommePoes
    Mar 02 18:46
    there was one hit by a train and everyone had piled out except the driver
  187. No, hired. THey steer
  188. Have to be sober I think
  189. StommePoes
    Mar 02 18:46
    and since everyone knew that guy was sober, they didn't know why he didn't jump out
  190. StommePoes
    Mar 02 18:46
    so then politicians talked for a hot minute about banning them
  191. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 18:47
    [karlgroves] Trivia: only times I’ve ever hung out with Estelle Weyl has been in foreign countries
  192. MichielBijl @MichielBijl notes that down in Karl's file
  193. StommePoes
    Mar 02 18:47
    Is she american?
  194. TzviyaSiegman
    Mar 02 18:47
    here's a question for the experts
  195. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 18:47
    [karlgroves] Yeah
  196. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 18:47
    [marcysutton] hahaha. I don’t know if I could handle the communal beer bike, I can handle my own bike after a few beers though (Hodala!)
  197. StommePoes
    Mar 02 18:47
    marcy have you seen these things?
  198. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 18:47
    [marcysutton] We have them here, yes. I have seen them in the US and in Germany
  199. TzviyaSiegman
    Mar 02 18:47
    although, i seem to be interrupting the communal happy hour
  200. ryoia
    Mar 02 18:48
    i have a menu that has some items and JAWS speaks those items fine except one, which is also a menu that has another dropdown, this is the structure:
    <span role="menu" aria-activedescendant aria-haspopup="true">
    <ul role="menu">
    <li role="menuitem" id="0">....</li>
    <li role="menuitem" id="1">....</li>
    <span role="menu" aria-activedescendant aria-haspopup="true">
    <ul role="menu">
    <li role="menuitem" id="100">....</li>
    <li role="menuitem" id="101">....</li>
    </ul></span>
    </ul>
    </span>
    so it speaks the menuitem except the nested span
  201. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 18:48
    [marcysutton] We are doing very important conference planning :smile:
  202. StommePoes
    Mar 02 18:48
    Tzviya ask away!
  203. StommePoes
    Mar 02 18:48
    wait
  204. StommePoes
    Mar 02 18:48
    can a menu container a direct child menu?
  205. zakim-robot
    Mar 02 18:48
    [karlgroves] I’d like to turn beer biking into a sport. Race until the keg is empty. Only way for the keg to have pressure is from peddling
  206. brilliant
  207. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 18:49
    Karl, you now have a wiki page with trivia =P
  208. Have a over-pressure release valve and you're golden
  209. jkva @jkva gets thirsty
  210. ryoia
    Mar 02 18:49
    StommePoes, what do you mean?
  211. StommePoes
    Mar 02 18:49
    menu->menu->menuitem...; menu->menu->menu (for the middle span)...
  212. TzviyaSiegman
    Mar 02 18:49
    is there a difference in the way AT processes <header role="contentinfo">informationalstuff</header> vs <header>stuff</header><div role="contentinfo">informationalstuff</div>?
  213. StommePoes
    Mar 02 18:50
    maybe, if that first <header> is direct child of the body, it's got another role
  214. StommePoes
    Mar 02 18:50
    banner
  215. ryoia
    Mar 02 18:50
    oh the middle span could theoretically has another <span> as a child
  216. StommePoes
    Mar 02 18:50
    well, you have ul with the span cahild
  217. StommePoes
    Mar 02 18:50
    child
  218. ryoia
    Mar 02 18:50
    yeah
  219. StommePoes
    Mar 02 18:50
    that's not allowed...
  220. ryoia
    Mar 02 18:50
    that span child also has ul which could potentially has another span
  221. StommePoes
    Mar 02 18:50
    it would have to be in one of the li's
  222. ryoia
    Mar 02 18:50
    mm
  223. StommePoes
    Mar 02 18:50
    I mean the only children a ul is allowed is li.
  224. StommePoes
    Mar 02 18:51
    Although with roles sometimes that changes, but I don't believe in the case of the menu role
  225. ryoia
    Mar 02 18:51
    mm ok
  226. StommePoes
    Mar 02 18:51
    is this an application menu?
  227. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 18:51
    @TzviyaSiegman: those are two different examples.
  228. StommePoes
    Mar 02 18:51
    with controls etc in them?
  229. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 18:51
    The first one get's contentinfo, second one is two elements?
  230. ryoia
    Mar 02 18:51
    i'm thinking about swapping a lot of the code out, they implemented a lot of things certain ways for semantic ui, but not so good with accessibility
  231. TzviyaSiegman
    Mar 02 18:52
    @MichielBijl , yes those are two different examples, but I have more than one thing in contentinfo. I am trying to decide how to break it up
  232. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 18:53
    Well, a header does not have role=contentinfo. So no point in having header element if you override it.
  233. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 18:53
    And, header not scope to body is essentially a div.
  234. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 18:53
    according to recent changes yet to be made =P
  235. TzviyaSiegman
    Mar 02 18:53
    @MichielBijl @StommePoes the real q is whether AT processes <header role="contentinfo"> differently from <div role="contentinfo">
  236. TzviyaSiegman
    Mar 02 18:54
    @MichielBijl and those changes are???
  237. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 18:54
    Ah, I don't know, but suspect they just get the role value. I can check Safari.
  238. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 18:54
    w3c/aria#277
  239. TzviyaSiegman
    Mar 02 18:55
    yes, I did see that yesterday
  240. TzviyaSiegman
    Mar 02 18:55
    it
  241. TzviyaSiegman
    Mar 02 18:55
    it's really hard to write a content model while people are editing aria
  242. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 18:55
    That's the change I meant.
  243. jnurthen
    Mar 02 18:56
    ...and to think some people want to move to living standards :)
  244. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 18:56
    NOOOO
  245. StommePoes
    Mar 02 18:56
    What they want, Tzviya, is that if you have <body><header>blah blah!</header> ... more content... <div><header> mor e blah</header>...</div>...</body>
  246. TzviyaSiegman
    Mar 02 18:57
    we make do with living CSS. I'm OK with living standards. Most don't actually move that quickly
  247. StommePoes
    Mar 02 18:57
    that only that first header, which is a direct child of the body and the first one, gets assigned a native role of "banner"
  248. StommePoes
    Mar 02 18:57
    so if you have a <header> that fits that criterea, setting another role on it means there's no point in using <header> over a div
  249. TzviyaSiegman
    Mar 02 18:57
    this is a child of article, so i don't care about banner
  250. StommePoes
    Mar 02 18:57
    Ok
  251. StommePoes
    Mar 02 18:58
    Then there should be no difference... and the contentinfo role should just be available to everyone.
  252. TzviyaSiegman
    Mar 02 18:58
    i am in publishing! I'm working on academic articles
  253. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 18:59
    @TzviyaSiegman, as far as Safari cares, it's all contentinfo
  254. TzviyaSiegman
    Mar 02 18:59
    @MichielBijl Thanks!
  255. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 19:00
    @StommePoes, if header is in a div it's still scoped to body. This is about inside main, article, section, etc.
  256. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 19:00
    So, sectioning elements.
  257. StommePoes
    Mar 02 19:00
    I thought it had to be a first child, my bad
  258. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 19:01
    No that would be hard to justify =)
  259. TzviyaSiegman
    Mar 02 19:02
    what do you think of this slightly whacky construct <header><h1>ArticleTitle</h1><div role="contentinfo>authornames</div> </header>. Squeezing too much into one element? will AT still be happy? Better to put the div after <header>?
  260. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 19:04
    <article>   <h1>Dinosaurs are cool</h1>   <div role="contentinfo">Written by Michiel</div> </article>
    
  261. TzviyaSiegman
    Mar 02 19:05
    that
  262. TzviyaSiegman
    Mar 02 19:05
    @MichielBijl that's pretty much it
  263. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 19:05
    No need for <header> if it only has <h1> in it.
  264. TzviyaSiegman
    Mar 02 19:05
    but, academic journal articles have way more crap in them
  265. TzviyaSiegman
    Mar 02 19:06
    we have title + subtitle, and sometimes 15 authors
  266. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 19:06
    I'd still put the contentinfo after the header.
  267. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 19:06
    I think it's not allowed to nest header/footer inside each other.
  268. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 19:07
    I'm pretty sure actually. Saw a discussion on that a while back.
  269. TzviyaSiegman
    Mar 02 19:07
    header can have many children. that's not a concern. I'm wondering what the effect on AT is
  270. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 19:09
    It can have many children, just not header/footer =P
  271. jnurthen
    Mar 02 19:09
    would contentinfo have more than just an authors name?
  272. jnurthen
    Mar 02 19:09
    The aria spec says "A large perceivable region that contains information about the parent document."
  273. jnurthen
    Mar 02 19:09
    to me that is not a large region
  274. TzviyaSiegman
    Mar 02 19:10
    @jnurthen i kept it brief for example purposes. I also have copyright info and funding info
  275. jnurthen
    Mar 02 19:11
    ok
  276. jnurthen
    Mar 02 19:11
    just checking
  277. StommePoes
    Mar 02 19:11
    I can imagine acedemic papers filling those out pretty well
  278. StommePoes
    Mar 02 19:11
    you can also
  279. StommePoes
    Mar 02 19:11
    nm
  280. StommePoes
    Mar 02 19:11
    typo
  281. TzviyaSiegman
    Mar 02 19:12
    @jnurthen even the list of authors in scholarly publishing can be large
  282. jnurthen
    Mar 02 19:12
    yeah - but is the author part of the contentinfo or part of the header?
  283. jnurthen
    Mar 02 19:13
    I mean - if I am referring to an academic paper I normally refer to it by the title and the authors
  284. TzviyaSiegman
    Mar 02 19:13
    @jnurthern, that is what I'm asking this group. should the list of authors, etc be in the header or not?
  285. jnurthen
    Mar 02 19:13
    as such it is part of the header not the contentinfo
  286. TzviyaSiegman
    Mar 02 19:13
    you refer to the paper by the main author, not the list of 5 authors and all contributors
  287. jnurthen
    Mar 02 19:13
    well yeah et al
  288. StommePoes
    Mar 02 19:14
    <header><h1>pterodactyls aren't dinosaurs</h1> bilines, subheadings, list, of, authors, et. al ...</header>
  289. StommePoes
    Mar 02 19:14
    ?
  290. StommePoes
    Mar 02 19:14
    hm
  291. TzviyaSiegman
    Mar 02 19:17
    so, it seems that we have reached the decision of inconclusive?
  292. StommePoes
    Mar 02 19:18
    I think we don't want you to <header> ... <div contentinfo/>...</header>
  293. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 19:19
    ^ that
  294. StommePoes
    Mar 02 19:19
    beyond that, I think you could probably have a good argument for contentinfo to contain accessory authors or not based on whatever the particular content is.
  295. StommePoes
    Mar 02 19:20
    So I liked Michiel's version, unless beyond title you have lots of headery stuff, in which case I'd <header> headery stuff</header> then <div (or footer, why not) contentinfo stuff /> then main article.
  296. StommePoes
    Mar 02 19:20
    You can do that.
  297. TzviyaSiegman
    Mar 02 19:20
    thanks! that was our original proposal.
  298. StommePoes
    Mar 02 19:20
    <article><header/><footer/>article stuff</article>
  299. TzviyaSiegman
    Mar 02 19:20
    Ah! There are very strict rules about where I put this contentinfo
  300. StommePoes
    Mar 02 19:21
    I was assuming from the stripped down stuff earlier that it had to be near the header stuff.
  301. StommePoes
    Mar 02 19:21
    So if you have to mix it into the other content, go even more towards Michiel's example, and don't use the <header> tag at all, so you can have div/footer =contentinfo wherever you need it.
  302. powrsurg
    Mar 02 20:33
    Aren't border and outline supposed to visually produce the same thing? I'm trying to conceptually understand why the parent element having overflow: hidden; hides my outline, but does not hide a border
  303. powrsurg
    Mar 02 20:35
    outlines should go on top of the element. So why does the parent's overflow matter?
  304. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 20:51
    It's in the name, out-line, it's a line on the outside.
  305. MichielBijl
    Mar 02 20:51
    Border is included in element dimensions; outline is not.
  306. powrsurg
    Mar 02 20:55
    my understanding that it sat on top of the element and the name was just a misnomer
  307. powrsurg
    Mar 02 21:03
    ... and I just discovered JW Player doesn't understand any tracks besides captions ....
  308. sophieschoice
    Mar 02 21:18
    Argh, roman numerals are limited in HTML. Noooooooo!
  309. powrsurg
    Mar 02 21:33
    Not sure what to do here. We have a bit of code for an admin tool that displays every color currently in use next to our color picker (which expects a hex value) so that someone wouldn't likely pick the same or similar colors. They're little boxes with the hex value as a background color, and we have non-visual text that currently reads off the hex value. We're considering changing that to a common color name that is easier to understand, but since those values aren't valid for input that might lead them to enter the wrong thing. What is better?