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A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 7th of March 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 04:38
    [kevinchao89] With rold="menuitem", how can it be coded so it allows navigating in it (e.g. Submenuitem). ARIA doesn't seem to have such a role and default menuitem only accepts activation. ,
  2. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 04:40
    [ryoia] kevinchao89, by navigating in the menuitem, do you mean to use arrow keys to go up and down, or to go into another dropdown inside of the current dropdown?
  3. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 04:40
    [ryoia] if it's the first one, you need aria-activedescendant on the parent to set to the id of the child element as user goes through the list
  4. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 04:41
    [ryoia] same as the second one actually, just need to make sure they know if the key is right arrow, you need to change it to the submenu's ids
  5. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 05:18
    [kevinchao89] By default, role="menu" expects Esc to close, but in this case: there is nothing that gets collapsed, so how can VoiceOver not speak this hint?
  6. simevidas
    Mar 07 05:18
    Could you review my ARIA code here: https://twitter.com/simevidas/status/706680371094687744
  7. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 05:19
    [ryoia] not sure how can let voiceover not speak that hint for that particular case
  8. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 05:20
    [ryoia] simevidas i can take a look tomorrow
  9. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 05:22
    [kevinchao89] Thanks! @ryoia for suggestion of aria-activedescendant - it's the right arrow case, but good to know same solution
  10. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 05:23
    [ryoia] yeah it worked in my case. let me know if it doesn't for you.
  11. Morning folks
  12. MichielBijl
    Mar 07 08:17
    Morning Job!
  13. MichielBijl
    Mar 07 09:29
    @jnurthen, if you have a moment to review, I've worked Léonie's landmark proposal into the APG and applied my feedback. I also worked all landmark roles into TOC: https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/landmarks/practices/aria-practices.html
  14. MichielBijl
    Mar 07 09:30
    I will look at Jon, Ann, and Teresa's version and see if we can merge some bits in.
  15. @MichielBijl sorry for barging in but the draft has a strange suggestion for math. Wouldn't a div with a label around a MathML fragment lead AT with MathML support to read two descriptions?
  16. MichielBijl
    Mar 07 09:58
    Do you have a link to the section? And barging is good, we like feedback =D
  17. Also, most AT seems to effectively limit the length of a label (not reading further than x number of chars).
  18. and math descriptions can quickly get out of hand.
  19. (just imagine a 3x3 matrix)
  20. It seems in that particular example, attaching parts of the speech string as labels to the MathML nodes would make more sense (and role=presentation elsewhere) though I fear most AT combinations will drop that, too.
  21.   <math>     <mrow>       <mrow>          <mrow>             <mi>a</mi>             <mo aria-label="times">&#x2062; <!-- invisible times --></mo>             <msup aria-label="x squared">               <mi role="presentation">x</mi>               <mn role="presentation">2</mn>             </msup>          </mrow>          <mo>+</mo>          <mrow>             <mi>b</mi>             <mo aria-label="times">&#x2062; <!-- invisible times --></mo>             <mi>x</mi>          </mrow>          <mo>+</mo>          <mi>c</mi>       </mrow>       <mo>=</mo>       <mn>0</mn>     </mrow>   </math>
    
  22. Note: not tested in the wild. Just philosophically speaking. I'll do some AT testing later anyway and will test this snippet.
  23. But at least this has the chance of being explorable.
  24. MichielBijl
    Mar 07 10:17
    If you do testing, could you file an issue here: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/new
  25. will do.
  26. MichielBijl
    Mar 07 11:07
    :+1: And yeah, that does seem weird.
  27. To answer myself

    Do any ATs have a shortcut for something like "put focus on last focusable element you read out to me"?

    I found what made me think there is. According to http://doccenter.freedomscientific.com/doccenter/archives/training/jawskeystrokes.htm JAWS has "Move to Previous Clickable Element" (default SHIFT+SLASH). (cc @garcialo )

  28. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 13:45
    [garcialo] Ah, interesting . I'll check that out once I wake up
  29. MichielBijl @MichielBijl throws coffee in Luis' face
  30. @MichielBijl orca and nvda will read nothing of the samples (ok, I didn't install mathplayer for NVDA but it doesn't read the label if there's a role=math -- does so without the role). I guess it's not clear to me if the spec is supposed to describe the reality of what works or also describe what AT should do.
  31. MichielBijl
    Mar 07 13:52
    I guess it's not clear to me if the spec is supposed to describe the reality of what works or also describe what AT should do.
  32. MichielBijl
    Mar 07 13:52
    Neither =P
  33. stevefaulkner
    Mar 07 14:23
    FYI some preliminary edge data added to http://html5accessibility.com
  34. MichielBijl
    Mar 07 14:42
    @pkra: The APG is based on current and future ARIA attributes/roles. So there is a good chance that something that is in there won't work in all AT. There are some AT folk in the ARIA WG. However, AT folk don't want the ARIA/APG spec to tell them what to do.
  35. powrsurg
    Mar 07 15:26
    Is there a recommended set of keyboard controls for video players that is defined somewhere? It seems like a lot of them use the same keys but I can't find any definition so I'm wondering if this is a defacto standard vs a defined standard
  36. jnurthen
    Mar 07 15:39
    @powrsurg if you find a defecto standard we should add it to the APG. Media Player is currently empty.
  37. jnurthen
    Mar 07 15:40
    @MichielBijl won't have time before the APG meeting today. Pesky time difference thing. And solid meetings until apg call.
  38. powrsurg
    Mar 07 15:40
    I've been reviewing JW Player, Flowplayer, and VideoJS recently. All of them seem to have the same basic hotkey commands. None easily let you toggle video tracks.
  39. powrsurg
    Mar 07 15:42
    It's funny, I feel like Flowplayer is the worst out-of-the-box accessibility wise, but you can hammer it into shape a little easier (though different skin options might make that possible with JW Player to get to individual controls via the keyboard, and I'm not that far along with testing VideoJS)
  40. @MichielBijl wrote

    @pkra: The APG is based on current and future ARIA attributes/roles. So there is a good chance that something that is in there won't work in all AT. There are some AT folk in the ARIA WG. However, AT folk don't want the ARIA/APG spec to tell them what to do.

    Ok. Let me ask differently: once it's published, what is it supposed to represent? For example, it seems reasonable that no AT should react to role=math with "I'm not going to read this at all". Or perhaps even that's too much for AT to handle ;-)

  41. But I'm guessing that won't be the case anytime soon.
  42. My motivation, @MichielBijl, is to file a sensible issue. If I don't know what the spec is supposed to represent, I can't really complain :fire:
  43. powrsurg
    Mar 07 15:46
    omg videojs actually uses button tags!
  44. @MichielBijl could I ask you a silly question. In my mathml example, is the use of aria-label and role=presentation correct?
  45. videojs isn't terrible from what I've seen, it's got some a11y issues but in general works fairly well. I'm working on some pull reqs but don't have the time currently :-/
  46. powrsurg
    Mar 07 16:33
    jkva: would you recommend it over anything else?
  47. powrsurg
    Mar 07 16:34
    I need something that can support HLS. I am making sure we do one that has good a11y
  48. @powrsurg: Not personally - I've not looked at any of the others. You might want to talk to Sina Bahram - his knowledge of current issues w/ accessible video players far exceeds my own.
  49. powrsurg
    Mar 07 16:36
    guess I'll hit him up on Twitter
  50. powrsurg
    Mar 07 16:36
    thanks for the heads up
  51. np!
  52. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 16:44
    [ryoia] simevidas, i tested that codepen you sent over, why was the toggle button a checkbox? also, it's not saying whether it's expanded or not. spacebar to toggle also not working for IE10, but works for chrome
  53. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 17:43
    [bkardell] ok, who knows what will happen if you have aria-describedby="whoops" and there is no "whoops"?
  54. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 17:49
    [bkardell] in other words, it's recommended that you maintain described-by as a conditionally applicable thing - dont have it there for an error message until it becomes relevant because things like display: none dont prevent it from being read, etc -- but what if someone conditionally included 'whoops' itself but it always had the describedby there? I'm asking because I just came across an app with hundreds and hundreds of cases of this :disappointed:
  55. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 17:52
    [karlgroves] @bkardell: if I’m reading this correctly, I’d say you’d have a high risk of that approach failing.
  56. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 17:52
    [bkardell] yeah, sigh.
  57. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 17:53
    [bkardell] it was worth a long shot to check
  58. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 17:53
    [bkardell] was hoping maybe we had struck an accidental chord that might still work ok
  59. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 17:53
    [karlgroves] Some (Most?) SRs use a mix of DOM rendering and accessibility API where they take a snapshot of the DOM and store it in a buffer. If nothing causes the buffer refresh (and adding a value like that to the DOM probably won’t) then the stored DOM won’t know the new value is there
  60. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 17:54
    [bkardell] ugh, this is going to dominate my time for so long O_o
  61. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 17:54
    [bkardell] well it does add whole nodes to the dom
  62. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 17:54
    [bkardell] but I can see how it won't have a link to the thing
  63. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 17:55

    [karlgroves] >well it does add whole nodes to the dom

    In that case it might not hurt to throw together a POC and test it.

  64. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 17:56
    [karlgroves] Adding/ removing nodes and changing ‘display’ properties are the types of things that will cause a buffer refresh
  65. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 18:33
    [hmig] anyone have a better comment than WTH?
  66. MichielBijl
    Mar 07 18:33
    :/
  67. MichielBijl
    Mar 07 18:34
    =/
  68. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 18:35
    [hmig] I always thought displaying the alt text if the images fails or is turned off was web browser 101
  69. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 18:35
    [deborah_kaplan] >:(
  70. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 18:36
    [hmig] lolz
  71. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 18:38
    [hmig] @MichielBijl - nice
  72. MichielBijl
    Mar 07 18:38
    =)
  73. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 18:39
    [hmig] I srsly couldn’t come up with anything that wasn’t picking up my tone of disdain
  74. MichielBijl
    Mar 07 18:41
    I hope I managed to put down something friendly and informative.
  75. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 18:41
    [hmig] I think it was … I +1’d it
  76. MichielBijl
    Mar 07 18:42
    With a touch of sarcasm =P
  77. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 18:42
    [hmig] mine was either going to be WTH or (tableflip)
  78. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 18:42
    [hmig] lol
  79. MichielBijl
    Mar 07 18:42
    Haha
  80. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 18:44
    [hmig] this is why I can’t have nice things =D
  81. @MichielBijl you wanted test results: I think the math sample in WAI-ARIA only works unintentionally. All AT that ignore the aria-label when role=math is given; I doubt that that's intentional. Those ATs that can handle MathML will generally ignore it, too, and then read the MathML. My idea for attaching "deep" labels has little to no effect (math is ignored when AT doesn't know it, though e.g., Chrome a11y dev tools correctly calculate the a11y tree). Generating HTML from that MathML idea does work though (ok, I'm cheating role=presentation didn't work but aria-hidden=true did). Sample http://codepen.io/pkra/pen/zqrwQx
  82. MichielBijl
    Mar 07 19:48
    yes, they feed my evil greed for big data so I may improve aria patterns based on A/B test
  83. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 20:31
    [fstorr] Does anyone have a link to a list of which versions of IE support HTML5 <main>, <footer>, <nav>, etc without adding the aria role?
  84. jnurthen
    Mar 07 20:32
    http://html5accessibility.com/ has some.... basically IE doesn't support them without aria roles
  85. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 20:39
    [fstorr] Duh. Completely forgot about that site! Thanks for the reminder :)
  86. powrsurg
    Mar 07 20:40
    Okay, after a half day of playing with VideoJS I have to say it's pretty damned good out of the box. Biggest issues for me is the lack of Audio Descriptions, and the Captions Settings dialog having poorly labeled elements.
  87. jnurthen
    Mar 07 21:40
    what is the state of the art for a style to hide text visually but read to screen readers?
  88. jnurthen
    Mar 07 21:41
    (which works across "all" email clients)
  89. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 21:44
    [hmig] crickets chirping
  90. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 21:45
    [hmig] @jnurthen - can you explain the case for that in email?
  91. powrsurg
    Mar 07 21:48
    ... aXe in Chrome shouldn't make a document scroll up, should it?
  92. jnurthen
    Mar 07 21:49
    the colour contrast check makes things scroll around
  93. jnurthen
    Mar 07 21:50
    @hmig have a complex table and want to add something in a blank cell to explain that this is really a "details" row rather than a master row
  94. jnurthen
    Mar 07 21:51
    @hmig thinking is might be better to add an image with alt text now which might help everyone for the same
  95. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 21:58
    [hmig] that would prob work ;0
  96. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 21:58
    [hmig] ;)
  97. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 21:59
    [hmig] haven’t touched email much in years
  98. garcialo
    Mar 07 21:59
    @powrsurg That's not abnormal behavior.
  99. garcialo
    Mar 07 22:00
    Whether it "should" is a different question.
  100. jnurthen
    Mar 07 22:10
    looks like an option is coming for no scrolling - no idea if it will be in the plugins though - dequelabs/axe-core@340705d
  101. zakim-robot
    Mar 07 22:21
    [bkardell] @michiel: you around?
  102. powrsurg
    Mar 07 22:24
    @garcialo yeah, I wasn't expecting it. Video player in Firefox wasn't exposing <tracks> for a <video>. Chrome did expose it ... and for some reason the video jumped up in the document
  103. powrsurg
    Mar 07 22:25
    like it scrolled, but I have no scrollbar (probably a CSS thing)
  104. garcialo
    Mar 07 22:48
    yeah, I don't know exactly why/how it does it. I'm sure @dylanb could explain; maybe you could ask in the axe-core gitter ;)