Archive index

A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 16th of March 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. :coffee: morning.
  2. o/
  3. StommePoes
    Mar 16 09:26
    anyone know which buttons jamie and the others are talking about when they say github "reaction buttons"?
  4. StommePoes
    Mar 16 09:39
    huh, I haven't been able to get to something that has a conversation tab... are they A/Bing this?
  5. Don't think so
  6. StommePoes
    Mar 16 09:40
    oh but now I've found a page with it... I never once thought to try it out because a weird smiley face thing has zero meaning for me
  7. Reactions are available on all Issues and Pull Requests on GitHub today
  8. Yeah it's similar to adding reactions on slack
  9. StommePoes
    Mar 16 09:40
    Do normal people usually randomly click weird pictures?
  10. StommePoes
    Mar 16 09:40
    I don't know what slack has either
  11. StommePoes
    Mar 16 09:41
    hm they are buttons and have aria-label
  12. StommePoes
    Mar 16 09:41
    I wonder though... if there's any point in having an SVG have a role=img but then give it no text
  13. StommePoes
    Mar 16 09:42
    if it's not to have any text, you'd think it ought to have role=presentation
  14. StommePoes
    Mar 16 09:43
    a div sitting there purely to make a border... I heard there's a new technology out there that can do this instead, called CSS
  15. StommePoes
    Mar 16 09:44
    can't keyboard to any of that stuff anyway
  16. StommePoes
    Mar 16 09:44
    how are they preventing a button from getting focus...
  17. Focus works, keyboard too
  18. tab to it, tooltip appears
  19. space triggers selection dialog
  20. StommePoes
    Mar 16 09:46
    I think my devtools being opened had messed with my keyboard, if I refreshed the page with devtools off I could focus on more things
  21. StommePoes
    Mar 16 09:46
    enter does too
  22. Hmm they don't lock my tab though
  23. StommePoes
    Mar 16 09:46
    but as I go through the little pictures, the names don't show up
  24. StommePoes
    Mar 16 09:46
    they do show up if you mouse
  25. StommePoes
    Mar 16 09:46
    Sometimes with little popups they shouldn't necessarily trap
  26. StommePoes
    Mar 16 09:47
    but then, if you tab off/out, the popup/tooltip should collapse
  27. yeh
  28. StommePoes
    Mar 16 09:47
    that one's always a tricky one, case by case basis-- act like a modal or act like a tooltip
  29. StommePoes
    Mar 16 09:48
    this to me is kinda like a tooltippy dropdown menu-- could be okay to let focus fall out and close the dropdown.
  30. I'm just going for Karl Groves' free beer, so now what
  31. StommePoes
    Mar 16 09:55
    Oooh, we should trick him into mentioning Tenon
  32. StommePoes
    Mar 16 09:55
    He mentions tshirts. He has tshirts??
  33. StommePoes
    Mar 16 09:56
    Oh I have to wear my FastMail tshirt. It's long and bright blue. Awesome.
  34. Hmm yeah I wonder if I can score some swag on CSUN
  35. Gotta get that flight and ticket cost back :P
  36. StommePoes
    Mar 16 10:04
    Buy an Ubi-Duo
  37. Those sound expensive
  38. Depends on how hackable they are
  39. StommePoes
    Mar 16 10:05
    Honestly I'd love to show that to Eva, I seriously felt like a friggin secret agent using that thing
  40. StommePoes
    Mar 16 10:05
    Yeah they're prolly expensive
  41. I should bring my spectrum analyser and take a look at its signal
  42. StommePoes
    Mar 16 10:05
    just because of the hardware etc
  43. StommePoes
    Mar 16 10:05
    You should, the CEO would prolly think that was cool
  44. Should bring that in my cargo luggage :-/
  45. StommePoes
    Mar 16 10:06
    yes.
  46. StommePoes
    Mar 16 10:06
    I can't find all those CSUN business cards from last year
  47. StommePoes
    Mar 16 10:06
    I thought I kept them
  48. StommePoes
    Mar 16 10:06
    and I had one from the Ubi-Duo guy.
  49. Yeah I hope to collect a bunch from cool a11y folks
  50. StommePoes
    Mar 16 10:06
    Hope he's there this year.
  51. Only 3 days until flight =)
  52. StommePoes
    Mar 16 10:06
    I got one in Braille from a W3C woman
  53. powrsurg
    Mar 16 13:33
    does anyone have a sample document for replying to someone that wonders if your site is 508 compliant? I just took the points of 508 and put bullet points under them to say how we deal with them. That likely will satisfy that particular client, but I'd like to get a document that we could use for any of our clients.
  54. powrsurg
    Mar 16 13:34
    It feels weird though, some of it is effectively just saying "Yes, we do this" (for things like, skip repetitive content)
  55. zakim-robot
    Mar 16 14:22
    [karlgroves] @powrsurg: Do you work for a .gov?
  56. powrsurg
    Mar 16 14:22
    no
  57. powrsurg
    Mar 16 14:23
    but we have clients that need to know info on such
  58. zakim-robot
    Mar 16 14:24
    [karlgroves] they need to know about your site? or your product?
  59. zakim-robot
    Mar 16 14:26
    [karlgroves] At any rate, a VPAT is the only document format I know of for such disclosure
  60. powrsurg
    Mar 16 15:02
    We are a learning management system which means that people are taking online courses through it
  61. powrsurg
    Mar 16 15:03
    so using the site would be using the product
  62. zakim-robot
    Mar 16 15:04
    [simong] powrsurg which one?
  63. zakim-robot
    Mar 16 15:05
    [simong] Most commercial / open-source LMSes have accessibility checklists they provide
  64. powrsurg
    Mar 16 15:05
    ours is a custom-built one
  65. powrsurg
    Mar 16 15:07
    I know what we do and how compliant we are. I guess I was more looking for a template for how people typically respond to questions like that for if they want proof that you do such.
  66. powrsurg
    Mar 16 15:07
    We did just do a VPAT for someone else so that may be applicable ...
  67. powrsurg
    Mar 16 15:09
    ... which I now see the VPAT we pulled out was based on 508 ...
  68. powrsurg
    Mar 16 15:09
    so my day yesterday was useless. yeah!
  69. zakim-robot
    Mar 16 15:17
    [karlgroves] @powrsurg: this week I’m going to deploy a bunch of changes to Tenon which will include a VPAT and WCAG conformance document. I’ll be sure to share it here so you can see how we’ve handled it.
  70. powrsurg
    Mar 16 15:18
    ooh, cool
  71. StommePoes
    Mar 16 18:49
    If I have a display: nonn'd div with an alert role, and I change the display to "block", IE in both JAWS and NVDA read the message out twice.
  72. StommePoes
    Mar 16 18:50
    The question then becomes, is it worth it to get an Angular team to rewrite their error dialogs to pure Javascript and inject them instead of ng-showing ones already in the DOM...
  73. MichielBijl
    Mar 16 18:57
    Should work both ways, but I think injecting them is the preferred way.
  74. StommePoes
    Mar 16 19:01
    That's what I thought
  75. StommePoes
    Mar 16 19:02
    I have two I'm testing that only change display state
  76. StommePoes
    Mar 16 19:02
    I saw a 2012 thing from Steve-O showing Safari didn't like that at all
  77. StommePoes
    Mar 16 19:02
    the second test, with <div role="alert"><div this one is display none and becomes display block/></div>, doesn't read out with JAWS+IE, does read out in FF and NVDA+IE.
  78. StommePoes
    Mar 16 19:03
    That was just to see if the angular guys had to wrap our alert.
  79. StommePoes
    Mar 16 19:04
    and cookiecrook didn't think safari should anyway
  80. StommePoes
    Mar 16 19:04
    so maybe that was never changed.
  81. MichielBijl
    Mar 16 19:14
    This one is tested by some APG folk with various screen readers and works as far as I know: http://w3c.github.io/aria/practices/examples/alert/index.html
  82. StommePoes
    Mar 16 19:16
    do we know an approx date on that?
  83. MichielBijl
    Mar 16 19:23
    Oktober-November last year.
  84. StommePoes
    Mar 16 19:24
    hm, JAWS/IE does nix when I click the button
  85. MichielBijl
    Mar 16 19:24
    CSS and JS were last edited Nov 9.
  86. StommePoes
    Mar 16 19:24
    reads out what it does understand in FF (skips cjk)
  87. StommePoes
    Mar 16 19:24
    ok cool
  88. StommePoes
    Mar 16 19:24
    @jkva, waaaaalk
  89. MichielBijl
    Mar 16 19:27
    Seems to be sketchy in VO+Safari
  90. jnurthen
    Mar 16 19:31
    works ok for me in IE+JAWS
  91. jnurthen
    Mar 16 19:32
    &FF+JAWS
  92. jnurthen
    Mar 16 19:48
    @StommePoes what version of JAWS are you using? earlier versions of 17 had some significant live region bugs
  93. stevefaulkner
    Mar 16 20:02
    @jonathantneal FYI the Firefox display:table bug resolved fixed https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1007975
  94. StommePoes
    Mar 16 20:23
    jNurthen I've got 16, however I wouldn't be surprised if our users are on 15 or 14 even
  95. StommePoes
    Mar 16 20:23
    however NVDA is also double-reading my live region on IE
  96. StommePoes
    Mar 16 20:23
    and both are doing fine on Firefox
  97. StommePoes
    Mar 16 20:23
    so I'm blaming IE on this one
  98. jnurthen
    Mar 16 20:23
    NVDA and IE is not a good combo generally
  99. StommePoes
    Mar 16 20:23
    I know
  100. StommePoes
    Mar 16 20:23
    but I still like the check
  101. StommePoes
    Mar 16 20:24
    I think officially we consider it "ok" if JAWS+IE, and NVDA+FF work
  102. StommePoes
    Mar 16 20:24
    but I test cross
  103. jnurthen
    Mar 16 20:24
    i don't normlly waste my time on it just like I don't waste time on Chrome+JAWS :)
  104. StommePoes
    Mar 16 20:24
    esp since one of our products has a huge banner at the top saying IE isn't supported
  105. jnurthen
    Mar 16 20:24
    despite the fact that my devs love to test using it and log bugs when things don't work
  106. StommePoes
    Mar 16 20:24
    so we have an excellent chance of JAWS users switching to FF
  107. StommePoes
    Mar 16 20:25
    yeah I'd never bother logging a chrome a11y bug with an SR until they're considered at FF-ish level
  108. jnurthen
    Mar 16 20:26
    yep
  109. StommePoes
    Mar 16 20:27
    http://stommepoes.nl/work/alerts.html the first one (except for the repeating in IE) works in Windows and Linux
  110. StommePoes
    Mar 16 20:27
    however Safari as of 2012 didn't allow state display changes to trigger alerts.
  111. StommePoes
    Mar 16 20:27
    So this may still be a fail Saffy/VO and that's another combo we consider necessary to pass.
  112. zakim-robot
    Mar 16 20:33
    [cordelia] I’m running into some weird VO live region issues lately.
  113. StommePoes
    Mar 16 20:33
    10.11?
  114. zakim-robot
    Mar 16 20:34
    [cordelia] Yep, on 10.11.3
  115. vdurhhe
    Mar 16 20:35
    @MichielBijl Hi there! Just talking with @StommePoes and she says you might be able to tell me how to record the screen on OS X 10.11 with sound. I want to be able to record my screen with VoiceOver sound.
  116. sophieschoice
    Mar 16 20:35
    You can use Quicktime for that
  117. @MichielBijl don't you use Quicktime?
  118. vdurhhe
    Mar 16 20:36
    Yeah, but I haven't figured out how to get it to record VoiceOver
  119. vdurhhe
    Mar 16 20:36
    both
  120. vdurhhe
    Mar 16 20:36
    at the same time.
  121. vdurhhe
    Mar 16 20:36
    Even if I use QT audio, it doesn't record VoiceOver
  122. StommePoes
    Mar 16 20:36
    @cordelia what were your circumstances?
  123. FWIW I use Camtasia, but that's paid
  124. StommePoes
    Mar 16 20:37
    btw I had checked the github.io page Michiel posted earlier, din't do anything in JAWS/IE.
  125. zakim-robot
    Mar 16 20:38
    [cordelia] @vdurhhe Are you wearing headphones? I always do “New Screen Recording”, unplug my headphones, and have it record the screen with my built-in microphone.
  126. vdurhhe
    Mar 16 20:38
    I don't mind paying. As long as I can get something that works.
  127. vdurhhe
    Mar 16 20:38
    Yes, wearing headphones with mic
  128. vdurhhe
    Mar 16 20:38
    I'll try that, thanks
  129. zakim-robot
    Mar 16 20:38
    [hmig] QT works for me
  130. zakim-robot
    Mar 16 20:38
    [hmig] the headphones are prob causing the recording issue
  131. vdurhhe
    Mar 16 20:38
    Thanks, everyone. That's really helpful
  132. vdurhhe
    Mar 16 20:39
    Got it, makes sense.
  133. vdurhhe
    Mar 16 20:39
    I should have thought of that.
  134. MichielBijl
    Mar 16 20:39
    @vdurhhe yeah I use QT
  135. MichielBijl
    Mar 16 20:39
    VO sound over speakers works for me.
  136. vdurhhe
    Mar 16 20:39
    Excellent1
  137. MichielBijl
    Mar 16 20:39
    You should be able to do a direct recording with something like SoundFlower, but that doesn't work for me.
  138. StommePoes
    Mar 16 20:39
    I never woulda thought of the headphones
  139. MichielBijl
    Mar 16 20:41
    @marcozehe you here?
  140. Yeah headphones are no prob with Camtasia, I'm surprised QT would have issues with that
  141. zakim-robot
    Mar 16 20:44
    [cordelia] @StommePoes I have a single live region where text content changes. The inner content of that region fades in and out using jQuery. Before the content fades in, I set the region to have aria-live=“polite”. After the content fades out, I set the region to have aria-live=“off” and I clear out the text content. It works great in FF+NVDA and IE+JAWS, but in VO+Safari it’s acting peculiar. Say the region gets the message “Hello”, then a little while later “World” and then a little while later “Hello” again. It will read “Hello” and “World”, but won’t read out the second instance of “Hello”.
  142. zakim-robot
    Mar 16 20:53
    [cordelia] (sorry, don’t have a code sample to share at the moment)
  143. zakim-robot
    Mar 16 20:54
    [cordelia] If I set aria-atomic=“true”, that seems to solve that particular issue, but causes VO to stutter on some messages.
  144. jnurthen
    Mar 16 21:02
    Anyone got any ideas as to how to provide JAWS (or other screen reader training) to developers & QA?
    We have always done in-person in the past as we have never found a remote solution that works but it isn't really scalable.
  145. vdurhhe
    Mar 16 21:12
    Hello there @MichielBijl Me again. I tried taking out the headphones but still not getting sound. Mac is my second language, am I just not setting something right? I'm using QT screen record with the mic built-in input setting on.
  146. @vdurhhe Hmm, I tried recording my own machine, nothing
  147. I'm suspecting maybe QT can't do system audio?
  148. Trying out recording with system audio in Camtasia
  149. Seems QT doesn't support system audio out of the box, just screen + mic
  150. vdurhhe
    Mar 16 21:23
    Thanks! I'll try Camtasia
  151. jnurthen
    Mar 16 21:23
    someone has mentioned soundflower right?
  152. @jnurthen Yeah I read about it - you can combine it w/ QT
  153. I'm heavily biased towards Camtasia because of all its features though
  154. vdurhhe
    Mar 16 21:25
    Sounds great. Thanks very much, everyone
  155. Np!
  156. StommePoes
    Mar 16 21:39
    @jnurthen @vdurhhe might know if a "server" of licenses can be bought
  157. StommePoes
    Mar 16 21:39
    I think we're doing similar for ZT, but FS seems to never give discounts or anything, but I think you could buy bulk licenses and set them on a server people can access
  158. jnurthen
    Mar 16 21:40
    @StommePoes I think my paren was in the wrong place. We have JAWS licenses. I'm looking for ways of training people how to use it.
  159. jnurthen
    Mar 16 21:40
    we have done in-person training before but it is not very scalable
  160. jnurthen
    Mar 16 21:41
    (we have a JAWS license server)
  161. StommePoes
    Mar 16 21:43
    oh
  162. StommePoes
    Mar 16 21:43
    yeah
  163. StommePoes
    Mar 16 21:44
    pssh... video series? where instead of in-person trainers, it's on-call question answerers?
  164. StommePoes
    Mar 16 21:44
    I mean, the same way employees would learn React
  165. StommePoes
    Mar 16 21:44
    or git
  166. StommePoes
    Mar 16 21:45
    they need to spend time learning, they need someone to look at their screens and see why it breaks for them, but the source of the training is something external
  167. StommePoes
    Mar 16 21:45
    there's a talk about it
  168. StommePoes
    Mar 16 21:45
    I have it starrred
  169. jnurthen
    Mar 16 21:45
    we have not had much luck with that model for screen readers before.... we've tried but we find people cheat too much unless they have an instructor over their shoulder
  170. StommePoes
    Mar 16 21:45
    hm
  171. StommePoes
    Mar 16 21:45
    it's hard to teach people who aren't in to learn themselves... which make sense, a job is work
  172. jnurthen
    Mar 16 21:46
    yeah - if people want to learn it the self-serve model works fine
  173. jnurthen
    Mar 16 21:46
    that sounds worthwhile
  174. StommePoes
    Mar 16 21:46
    I'm not sure which SRs they're using but... it should at least be interesting
  175. jnurthen
    Mar 16 21:47
    i must admit i haven't looked at the sessions yet but that is now on my list
  176. StommePoes
    Mar 16 21:52
    There are way more than marked that I think are interesting, but I'm kinda feeling pressured to fulfill some booth duty
  177. StommePoes
    Mar 16 21:52
    even tho I paid to go to CSUN and everything, they're not days off. I am getting paid as work days there. So I do feel obligated to skip some stuff and do booth duty.
  178. jnurthen
    Mar 16 21:52
    notes you are not interested in mine :(
  179. StommePoes
    Mar 16 21:53
    the JET one def didn't seem interesting
  180. StommePoes
    Mar 16 21:53
    maybe it's bad description
  181. StommePoes
    Mar 16 21:53
    a movie ruined by a bad trailer
  182. jnurthen
    Mar 16 21:53
    :(
  183. StommePoes
    Mar 16 21:54
    besides, I prolly really need to do the JS/CSS testing thing
  184. StommePoes
    Mar 16 21:54
    if it's a good talk
  185. StommePoes
    Mar 16 21:54
    you never know
  186. StommePoes
    Mar 16 21:54
    but boy it would be cool to see what we could check off before Tenon/Seleium
  187. StommePoes
    Mar 16 21:54
    last year I had so many yellow
  188. jnurthen
    Mar 16 21:54
    Jon is very knowledgable.... seems like a bad timeslot for me as the WCAG panel will be v. popular
  189. StommePoes
    Mar 16 21:55
    this year It'll get bigger, but I discovered last year they just seem to lump all the good ones and all the bad ones together
  190. StommePoes
    Mar 16 21:55
    yes
  191. StommePoes
    Mar 16 21:55
    yeah, it's not agreat slot
  192. StommePoes
    Mar 16 21:55
    but, this JET is oracle specific?
  193. StommePoes
    Mar 16 21:55
    or just, happened to be developed there
  194. jnurthen
    Mar 16 21:55
    will be open source
  195. jnurthen
    Mar 16 21:56
    hopefully as early as next week
  196. StommePoes
    Mar 16 22:03
    in any case if I'm lucky I can meet up with you and Jon at some point anyway
  197. StommePoes
    Mar 16 22:03
    *john
  198. StommePoes
    Mar 16 22:13
    hm,
  199. StommePoes
    Mar 16 22:14
    did hammer.js ever fix the issue I had with it, that it didn't work unless you disabled user zoom?
  200. StommePoes
    Mar 16 22:14
    the main original dev said that if you zoomed, hammer would lose where things were and not necessarily work right.
  201. jnurthen
    Mar 16 22:39
    i haven't seen that but I will be aware of it now you say it
  202. jnurthen
    Mar 16 22:58
    Thanks @StommePoes I have logged an issue - you are quite right about hammer. I'm sure we will get it fixed.
  203. jnurthen
    Mar 16 23:28
    Why are there FULLWIDTH versions of characters - and why would any developer use them?
  204. jnurthen
    Mar 16 23:30
    Just had a bug where the dev had used the fullwidth version of Currency symbols (&#xFFE5; instead of &#x00A5; ) and of course the screen reader wasn't reading them
  205. jonathantneal
    Mar 16 23:35
    @stevefaulkner, thanks for the update, so display:table does not change the way an element is read. Sweet.