Archive index

A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 4th of April 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 07:39
    [marcysutton] Happy Monday from Amsterdam y’all (coffee emoji)
  2. jkva
    Apr 04 07:40
    Still there? :)
  3. jkva
    Apr 04 07:40
    Sorry about the rain, I couldn't get it rescheduled
  4. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 07:40
    [marcysutton] haha. Yep still here, spending a work day before heading home tomorrow. We are ok with rain being from Seattle =D
  5. jkva
    Apr 04 07:41
    Next time you're around I'll try to bring you some cheese from my village, it's fab
  6. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 07:42
    [marcysutton] OMG yes plz!
  7. jkva
    Apr 04 07:59
    That CSSday lineup looks so good. Decisions decisions.
  8. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 08:11
    [marcysutton] That does look awesome!
  9. jkva
    Apr 04 08:11
    550E + 2 working days is kinda pricey when freelancing, I have to see if worth the investment
  10. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 08:12
    [marcysutton] That is the same weekend as Amsterdam’s Open Garden Days, I was fortunate enough to have that same epic timing last year during Gotocon http://www.iamsterdam.com/en/visiting/whats-on/festivals/overview-cultural-festivals/open-garden-days
  11. jkva
    Apr 04 08:12
    Oh wow. Paging @StommePoes
  12. StommePoes
    Apr 04 11:19
    @oliviernourry Ah your manager is Bon Phillipe? The project sounds pretty cool.
  13. StommePoes
    Apr 04 11:21
    @oliviernourry besides maybe Iacobien Riezebosch (@iacobien on twitter) I believe Jules Ernst was also involved (@julezRulez on twitter)
  14. julezrulez
    Apr 04 12:29
    @MichielBijl Where did you hear or read that the extra requirements beside WCAG 2 in Webrichtlijnen were dropped? Is it official yet?
  15. jkva
    Apr 04 12:29
    Hey Julez o/
  16. julezrulez
    Apr 04 12:30
    Hi Job!
  17. MichielBijl
    Apr 04 12:30
    @julezrulez: not sure, but I believe someone on twitter—probably some stupid cat—mentioned that the fifth category was dropped in an audit thingy of an official website.
  18. MichielBijl
    Apr 04 12:31
    @StommePoes: you recall anything like that?
  19. StommePoes
    Apr 04 12:32
    I didn't mention it, I believe I heard it from others. Might've been Bram, and there was also a discussion on the LinkedIn dutch accessibility group-- Jaap Jan van Putte? was answering questions I believe about "shouldn't we still include that?"
  20. julezrulez
    Apr 04 12:32
    Oh right. Than it's not dropped yet, but website-owners are free to add the extra's when websites are tested or not. And looking at EU-directives etc. I think in the future it will be less and less important (in some cases unfortunatly).
  21. StommePoes
    Apr 04 12:33
    They were saying it was too difficult to test the last one as it was a general quality thing and people felt it being tacked onto WCAG stuff just lessened the numbers of those going for WCAG-certification (via Drempelvrij)
  22. StommePoes
    Apr 04 12:34
    Jules did you scroll further up and read the stuff from Olivier Nourry?
  23. StommePoes
    Apr 04 12:34
    I believe it's his manager who gave the talk about the French standard @ CSUN.
  24. jkva
    Apr 04 12:35
    Likely
  25. julezrulez
    Apr 04 12:35
    I tried to read it, but couldn't follow the different things above that quick. (very busy at the moment)
  26. amandarush
    Apr 04 12:37
    Hi all. Just lurking for now mostly, until I figure out which username matches with which person.
  27. jkva
    Apr 04 12:37
    Hey Amanda! I'm Job, @detonite on twitter.
  28. amandarush
    Apr 04 12:37
    Except the obvious ones, and I think Malory's might be the only one of those so far.
  29. amandarush
    Apr 04 12:38
    @jkva Hey Job!
  30. jkva
    Apr 04 12:38
    I should probably get a more sensible twitter handle at some point, but I'm too invested in this one :-/
  31. amandarush
    Apr 04 12:39
    I'm arush everywhere else except Twitter, because Startup Nation squatter. LOL
  32. amandarush
    Apr 04 12:39
    Wel, and here, because Github username.
  33. MichielBijl
    Apr 04 12:40
    Hi Amanda!
  34. amandarush
    Apr 04 12:40
    @MichielBijl Hi!
  35. MichielBijl
    Apr 04 12:40
    @JulezRulez: so don't think it is officially dropped, but some things pointed to it. If I find the article I got it from I'll notify you, but don't count on it :x
  36. MichielBijl
    Apr 04 12:41
    @jkva: just get @JobvanAchterberg; that's nice and short :P
  37. amandarush
    Apr 04 12:41
    Yay accessibility folklore! That seems to be quite a thing on the Google.
  38. MichielBijl @MichielBijl still owns @CodingKittens
  39. jkva
    Apr 04 12:42
    I think I had @jkvab at some point
  40. jkva
    Apr 04 12:42
    Not sure where that went
  41. amandarush
    Apr 04 12:42
    So the other night I literally curled up with a glass of wine and a copy of WCAG. I guess that's no longer a joke.
  42. julezrulez
    Apr 04 12:43
    @MichielBijl Jaap van de Putten wrote an article about Webrichtlijnen and WCAG. And also I mentionned something about it on my website. So I also started this rumour :smile:
  43. MichielBijl
    Apr 04 12:43
    So it was you!
  44. MichielBijl
    Apr 04 12:44
    @amandarush: hope you didn't print it all :P
  45. jkva
    Apr 04 12:44
    Or at least double-sided ;)
  46. amandarush
    Apr 04 12:45
    No, I've copied it into one HTML file for reading on a braille display. I needed something portable.
  47. StommePoes
    Apr 04 12:45
    Amanda wouldn't waste paper printing on it. She uses paper to make origami beer holders :P
  48. amandarush
    Apr 04 12:45
    Oh hey that's a good idea. Paper fancy beer holders!
  49. MichielBijl
    Apr 04 12:45
    Well, I take it there are brail printers…
  50. amandarush
    Apr 04 12:46
    There are, but I don't have one, and I'd hate to think of how much space WCAG would take up in braille.
  51. StommePoes
    Apr 04 12:46
    Oh that would be funny
  52. amandarush
    Apr 04 12:46
    Somebody should do that at CSUN next year.
  53. StommePoes
    Apr 04 12:46
    when Karl said "the WCAG prints out to 36 pages" that'd be, what, 70+ in Braille?
  54. StommePoes
    Apr 04 12:46
    Yes.
  55. MichielBijl
    Apr 04 12:46
    “I would like to go bungyjumping of off WCAG”
  56. StommePoes
    Apr 04 12:46
    Bring a printout of the WCAG, the Meeting WCAG, and the Understanding WCAG...
  57. MichielBijl
    Apr 04 12:46
    Most controversial line said at CSUN :P
  58. amandarush
    Apr 04 12:46
    Plus supporting docs, so something like 2500 pages I think if I have the numbers correct.
  59. StommePoes
    Apr 04 12:47
    you might need a forklift or something though
  60. jkva
    Apr 04 12:47
    beep-beep-beep
  61. StommePoes
    Apr 04 12:48
    Oh and then also bring a Brailled Bible or Torah for comparison
  62. amandarush
    Apr 04 12:48
    Yeah it would tripple my baggage costs. Then I could go "Hey, see what I did for you A11Y, I paid four times extra so all the blinkdevs could have WCAG in braille!"
  63. StommePoes
    Apr 04 12:48
    Ship it beforehand
  64. StommePoes
    Apr 04 12:48
    FedEx
  65. StommePoes
    Apr 04 12:49
    They made a movie where a lone warrior protected a single Bible let over from some apocalypse, and when a Bad Guy finally got ahold of it, it was Braille. And I thought "that must be only a part of the Bible"
  66. MichielBijl
    Apr 04 12:49
    I think it was either Jon Metz or James Nurthen that told a story about a restaurant that gave blinks discounts on anything that was on the menu.
  67. StommePoes
    Apr 04 12:49
    During CSUN?
  68. MichielBijl
    Apr 04 12:50
    …because their braille menu was outdated and had old prices. It was too expensive to have them reprinted.
  69. MichielBijl
    Apr 04 12:50
    Yeah.
  70. StommePoes
    Apr 04 12:50
    Ah now that's a nice idea.
  71. StommePoes
    Apr 04 12:50
    They get the old prices since that's what they're offered to read. Same if they'd given everyone old menus.
  72. amandarush
    Apr 04 12:50
    It would have had to have been just a part. I think the Christian one is something like 40 volumes. Big ones.
  73. StommePoes
    Apr 04 12:50
    Will be nice when we get Braille printing down to costing nothing.
  74. amandarush
    Apr 04 12:51
    Yeah we'd just have to find a paper manufacturer who would play along.
  75. jkva
    Apr 04 12:51
    In Dutch we'd call that "zware kost" ("heavy reading", meaning it's tough)
  76. sophieschoice
    Apr 04 12:51
    isn't webrichtlijnen replaced/being replaced with Gewoon Toegankelijk ?: https://www.gewoontoegankelijk.nl/
  77. StommePoes
    Apr 04 12:53
    You mean Drempelvij being replaced by that? The Webrichtlijnen (except for the extra bit) are just WCAG2 I thought.
  78. MichielBijl
    Apr 04 12:53
    Webrichtlijnen is WCAG + a custom fifth category
  79. StommePoes
    Apr 04 12:53
    Which is... general-quality, right?
  80. julezrulez
    Apr 04 12:53
    @sophieschoice No Gewoon Toegankelijk is just a tool.
  81. StommePoes
    Apr 04 12:53
    I'm not even sure how that's measurable.
  82. sophieschoice
    Apr 04 12:54
    so we basically have three guidelines/tools ? wow :P
  83. StommePoes
    Apr 04 12:54
    Man, if Steve-O were here, he would see even more Dutch Fuckers
  84. StommePoes
    Apr 04 12:54
    Sophie there's actually lots and lots of tools
  85. StommePoes
    Apr 04 12:54
    if you count stuff like Tenon, aXe, WAVE...
  86. StommePoes
    Apr 04 12:54
    At least for the automation
  87. StommePoes
    Apr 04 12:55
    But gewoonToeganklijk looks like it could be used by website-holders who'd rather read in Dutch
  88. sophieschoice
    Apr 04 12:55
    We Dutch really like to make it difficult, with three different things......
  89. julezrulez
    Apr 04 12:55
    There used to be tooling on Webrichtlijnen. But these are replaced on gewoontoegankelijk.nl or just killed.
  90. MichielBijl
    Apr 04 12:55
    It's sad that the common sense tool is never listed.
  91. StommePoes
    Apr 04 12:55
    As far as Guidelines, we have it easy: basically, just follow WCAG. In the US, they've got WCAG as guidelines but Section 508 as law. 508 is out of date and based on WCAG1.
  92. julezrulez
    Apr 04 12:56
    On Webrichtlijnen.nl you can find the dutch specs and some (a lot!) more information.
  93. StommePoes
    Apr 04 12:56
    So it can happen that you make something completely accessible within WCAG2 guidelines but miss something weird from 508 and boom, you could get a fine.
  94. sophieschoice
    Apr 04 12:56
    @StommePoes Ouch, that's even worse....
  95. StommePoes
    Apr 04 12:57
    So when companies have to make VPATs (documents of how accessible their product is) they may make a couple of them as some consumers may demand a 508-VPAT while others want WCAG2-VPATs.
  96. StommePoes
    Apr 04 12:57
    or both
  97. sophieschoice
    Apr 04 12:58
    wow.....
  98. julezrulez
    Apr 04 13:00
    By the way, there should also be an English version of gewoontoegankelijk.nl but I can't find the button for that. Just hack /en/ in the URL.
  99. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 13:12
    [karlgroves] OMG its a Dutch invasion
  100. MichielBijl
    Apr 04 13:17
    Dude, you just invaded Dutchland…
  101. jkva
    Apr 04 13:18
    Heheh
  102. jkva
    Apr 04 13:18
    a11yCloggers
  103. MichielBijl
    Apr 04 13:19
    We build dykes to keep your a11y in.
  104. jkva
    Apr 04 13:20
    As long as the dykes have ramps and elevators and clear signage
  105. MichielBijl
    Apr 04 13:21
    :+1:
  106. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 13:22
    [karlgroves] It was great hanging out with you guys, even if it was a bit brief
  107. MichielBijl
    Apr 04 13:22
    I forgot to bring the rest of the KARL coasters
  108. jkva
    Apr 04 13:22
    Definitely! Just come to CSSdays
  109. MichielBijl
    Apr 04 13:23
    Are you going Job?
  110. jkva
    Apr 04 13:23
    Very tempted. We can share lodging ;)
  111. MichielBijl
    Apr 04 13:23
    I won
  112. MichielBijl
    Apr 04 13:24
    I won't be rejected by Karl again…
  113. jkva
    Apr 04 13:24
    wat? ah.
  114. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 13:25
    [karlgroves] I don’t want to hear it. You knew what time the train was leaving and you were late
  115. MichielBijl
    Apr 04 13:25
    And you didn't pick up the phone :P (for good reason)
  116. MichielBijl
    Apr 04 13:25
    Still, it eases my pain of having to take 7 hours to get home. Instead of the 75 minutes it normally takes.
  117. MichielBijl
    Apr 04 13:26
    Making jokes about it that is.
  118. MichielBijl
    Apr 04 13:27
    Wait till you see the skype message :P
  119. MichielBijl @MichielBijl runs and hides
  120. amandarush
    Apr 04 13:56
    Something something "Dutch Side". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHiUitciuJ8
  121. powrsurg
    Apr 04 14:35
    https://moz.com/blog/accessibility-seo-1?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_content=accessability_seo&utm_campaign=blog_post
  122. powrsurg
    Apr 04 14:36
    references @Karlgroves
  123. jkva
    Apr 04 14:36
    woo!
  124. amandarush
    Apr 04 15:13
    Congratulations @karlgroves, you're now Internets famous. You have fifteen minutes to bask in your glory. :P
  125. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 15:14
    [karlgroves] OMG I don’t even know who you people are anymore
  126. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 16:11
    [karlgroves] I guess I truly am a rockstar. I just got a push notification from Twitter saying I passed 3000 twitter followers.
  127. jkva
    Apr 04 16:11
    Damn
  128. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 16:12
    [karlgroves] yeah! I’m impressed to know me
  129. jkva
    Apr 04 16:12
    You command a small army
  130. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 16:14
    [karlgroves] mmmmm an Army. I like that. Who do I invade first? Maybe an AngularJS conference
  131. amandarush
    Apr 04 16:15
    Leave WordPress events alone, please. :P
  132. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 16:15
    [karlgroves] That would actually be awesome. Have an army of people go to an Angular conference (or any front-end conference) and stand up at every session and ask accessibility questions.
  133. MichielBijl
    Apr 04 16:16
    So, Marcy basically?
  134. jkva
    Apr 04 16:16
    "Oh no it's the verba11y army"
  135. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 16:16
    [karlgroves] Each presentation: “Great talk! Thanks for sharing. So how would you go about making that accessible?"
  136. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 16:17
    [marcysutton] I support those questions wholeheartedly, I don’t go to all Angular conferences :)
  137. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 16:19
    [karlgroves] I just picked on Angular because I favor React. ;) Could be any FE conference.
  138. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 16:22
    [marcysutton] Commanding an army for good: I like it!
    If every person in here went to a front-end conference and asked questions about accessibility in the Q&A (or did a talk), we’d spread the accessibility message even further. Just try and be nice if you pick apart a demo in Q&A :)
  139. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 16:23
    [karlgroves] thumbsup emoji
  140. julezrulez
    Apr 04 16:30
    What would you say if the person answers that it is accessible and you know for sure that it is not?
  141. jkva
    Apr 04 16:30
    Say why you think it's not, and that you'd gladly discuss with them after the talk?
  142. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 16:31
    [karlgroves] Yeah, probably not a good idea to argue. I’d probably say something like “There may be some issues around x, y, and z you may have overlooked, but we can talk after your presentation if you’re interested"
  143. jkva
    Apr 04 16:32
    Right
  144. amandarush
    Apr 04 16:38
    I do my part at WordPress events. I go to all the non-accessibility talks and ask about accessibility where appropriate.
  145. julezrulez
    Apr 04 16:38
    Yeah that's what I used to do. But than what happened is that they fix x, y and z but they forget to look at all the other letters in the alphabet.
  146. jnurthen
    Apr 04 16:39
    @julezrulez wow - they actually fix x,y and z - you will have to give everyone else bug logging tips :)
  147. amandarush
    Apr 04 16:39
    And speaking of spreading the a11y message further, it's in the Tavern again. http://wptavern.com/color-safe-build-accessible-color-palettes-based-on-wcag-guidelines #a11y That feed lands in every single WordPress dashboard unless someone's specifically turned that widget off. 26% of the web, bitches! :P
  148. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 16:40
    [karlgroves] w00t
  149. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 16:53
    [cordelia] I did an accessibility talk at a design conference last week, and since it was a single-track conference, it meant that people who might not ordinarily have decided to go to an accessibility talk out of a list of available talks came to mine anyway. Single-track conferences: great way to spread accessibility message to folks who may not know it’s relevant to them!
  150. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 16:56
    [marcysutton] YAY you are all awesome
  151. MichielBijl
    Apr 04 17:34
    @julezrulez: so go “There may be some issues around a-z, and 1-9 you may have overlooked, but we can talk after your presentation if you’re interested"
  152. MichielBijl
    Apr 04 17:34
    ;)
  153. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 17:50
    [saltnburnem] Sweet @cordelia !!
  154. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 18:17
    [jeankaplansky] I agree @cordelia. There's a single track ebookcraft conference in Toronto that beats all of the other ebook conferences hands down. I did an assistive technology workshop there a couple years ago, and my friend Laura Brady did an accessible ebook workshop just last week.
  155. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 18:18
    [cordelia] Nice! Let’s get an accessibility talk into every single-track technology conference!
  156. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 19:05
    [miwayha] Reasonably new accessibility person here with what I think is a dumb question: I have an accordion, and navigation through the tabs must be done with arrow keys; the tab key doesn’t work. Otherwise, it uses ARIA sufficiently well. Is this OK?
  157. jnurthen
    Apr 04 19:06
    @miwayha the old accordion pattern in the APG is not very keyboard friendly. The APG is working on a pattern which allows an accordion to be implemented using multiple expandable regions
  158. jnurthen
    Apr 04 19:07
    this is what I currently recommend to our developers because of usability concerns with the current accordion pattern
  159. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 19:12
    [karlgroves] @jnurthen be sure to discuss with Ian Pouncey as they recently did usability testing on tabs
  160. jnurthen
    Apr 04 19:12
    yes - Ian is in the APG
  161. jnurthen
    Apr 04 19:13
    Task Force
  162. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 19:13
    [karlgroves] thumbsup emoji
  163. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 19:14
    [miwayha] Thank you for the info! I’m still having trouble parsing… should I advise that tab key to move between headings is necessary or that arrows is sufficient?
  164. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 19:22
    [miwayha] I think it’s OK that each panel does not receive focus on Tab, if I’m reading correctly. Sorry to be a bother… interpreting these rules (especially for the first time) is a challenge.
  165. jnurthen
    Apr 04 19:30
    Sorry. A little busy to reply right now. I'll try to get back later.
  166. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 21:22
    [pablod] So here's a thing. I'm working on a project where we're using Foundation, and I haven't messed with Foundation in a while, so I'm basically learning from scratch. When I first started looking through the documentation, I was surprised to see that some of the markup they suggest for the buttons use just an <a> tag (href-less), with a .button class, instead of an actual <button> element. I kinda side-eyed it, but decided to go along with the patterns in Foundation since I figured ZURB knows its stuff. But after seeing @cordelia 's fantastic talk last week specifically calling out this practice as terrible for a11y, I'm changing everything back to <button>s, because that's certainly the right thing to do for my users. But it leaves me with the question of why Foundation would offer <a> buttons as a recommended pattern for a button? Is there an actual benefit, or is it just a holdover from before? I can't imagine that the thoughtful folks at ZURB a wouldn't have a reason for it.
  167. jkva
    Apr 04 21:25
    @pablod: I'm guessing they just don't know any better. It's usually ignorance.
    General rule - if it goes somewhere, it's an a, if it does something, it's a button
  168. jkva
    Apr 04 21:25
    @cordelia++
  169. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 21:26
    [pablod] Yeah, thats what I figured. I just found it so odd.
  170. jkva
    Apr 04 21:27
    You'd think Twitter would know better too, yet their Bootstrap accordion still uses an a :-/
  171. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 21:27
    [pablod] Hm
  172. jkva
    Apr 04 21:27
    Besides that, an a without href makes it non-focusable so that's another issue with that
  173. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 21:29
    [pablod] Right, that's what @cordelia showed us.
  174. jkva
    Apr 04 21:29
    Yeah I'm just checking if you paid attention ;)
  175. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 21:30
    [pablod] Lol
  176. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 21:31
    [cordelia] =D
  177. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 21:40
    [cordelia] @pablod, I have a few theories about why so many style guides have anchors with class button, <a class=“button”>. The first is just that a lot of designs have things that look like a button but that actually navigate to different pages. And so style guides end up including examples of that, but don’t actually want to include real links to fake pages in their guides, so they remove the href.
  178. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 21:44
    [cordelia] @pablod, there’s also a tendency to treat clickable things as interchangeable without realizing that there’s a lot of difference in functionality — buttons can be activated with enter or space, anchors only with enter; buttons and anchors have different context menus, etc. I’ve seen a lot of icon “buttons” across the web that are marked up as anchors without hrefs, and my hunch is that maybe it’s because <a> doesn’t do much default styling, while <button> does a lot of default styling, making it more cumbersome to override.
  179. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 21:51
    [pablod] Ah, that makes sense, yeah.
  180. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 21:53
    [pablod] I just had one of those "if the big kids are doing it this way, it must be right" moments, so I doubted my instinct. Turns out my instinct was right. Thanks for that talk, @cordelia , it was wonderful.
  181. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 21:55
    [cordelia] Glad it was helpful, @pablod! :) I hadn’t looked at Zurb’s components before. They have some really great accessibility notes in their button documentation and elsewhere: http://foundation.zurb.com/sites/docs/button.html
  182. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 21:57
    [cordelia] I’m not sure about the anchor without href examples, but the rest of the page has some great notes around using disabled attributes (not just a CSS class) and adding text to icon buttons.
  183. zakim-robot
    Apr 04 21:58
    [pablod] The bit with the anchors is what threw me for a loop, yeah.
  184. amandarush
    Apr 04 22:29
    Re: anchors as buttons without href in style guides: I've seen that sometimes, but usually they'll do something like <a ... </a> to save having to repeat a bunch of stuff, or the case where something looks like a button but actually navigates to a page instead of doing something on the page, so they' use an anchor. I seem to remember reading somewhere that there's conflicting opinions on hardcore always using <button> for something that looks like a button VS.
  185. amandarush
    Apr 04 22:29
    you can use <a> </a> if you're actually just sending someone off to another page but stylistically it's a button. Like with social profiles.
  186. amandarush
    Apr 04 22:29
    Hope that makes sense.