Archive index

A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 18th of April 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 02:14
    [kevinchao89] Chrome://accessibility for tree is great!
  2. jnurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 18 06:01
    That isn't what I meant. It sounds like chromevox is now going to use the a11y tree and not crawl the DOM.
  3. mikaelR
    @cr2a-graphique
    Apr 18 07:08
    Morning slackers!
  4. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Apr 18 09:29
    morning
  5. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 09:42
    Morn
  6. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 18 10:46
    @MichielBijl: Hidde = https://twitter.com/hdv op attendees list
  7. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 18 10:47
    Staat nu iemand anders :P
  8. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 10:47
    Whoops
  9. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 10:48
    Fixed
  10. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 18 10:49
    tx!
  11. Jon Metz
    @metzessible
    Apr 18 12:06
    My coffee maker is broken. 💀
  12. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 12:56
    nooooes.
  13. Jon Metz
    @metzessible
    Apr 18 13:18
    I know. It's a sad day indeed.
  14. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 13:24
    Just repair it with some Starbuck magic Mr. Gandalff
  15. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 14:03
    [techthomas] I’m having some Starbuck magic right now
  16. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 14:05
    [techthomas] Did you all know New York City has new accessibility requirements? >On March 14, New York City became the first major municipality in the United States to adopt legislation mandating accessibility standards for all of its government agency websites. Serving a population of over 8 million, the New York City government includes more than 120 agencies staffed by approximately 325,000 employees.
  17. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 14:41
    [deborah_kaplan] +1
  18. jnurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 18 14:51
    @metzessible what kind of coffee maker? I've found really good videos on YouTube for repairing/maintaining my espresso machine
  19. Jon Metz
    @metzessible
    Apr 18 15:48
    Oh it's a crap brand @jnurthen. I'm getting a new one by the end of the week, but I was hoping this could last a few more days.
  20. Jon Metz
    @metzessible
    Apr 18 15:49
    I need to sell my beloved la Pavoni if anyone wants to pay shipping. Needs to be repaired.
  21. Jon Metz
    @metzessible
    Apr 18 15:50
    Sells probably not the right word.
  22. dothedesign
    @dothedesign
    Apr 18 16:39
    Interesting tidbit, Pluralsight currently has no CC's or transcripts but they are in the process of adding that functionality to their videos.
  23. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 16:40
    [sethkane] Did anyone else see this post? http://simplyaccessible.com/article/danger-aria-tabs/ I would be very interested in hearing thoughts around this.
  24. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 16:43
    [deborah_kaplan] I think it's a very valuable post,
  25. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 16:44
    [deborah_kaplan] and gets across the point that ARIA should be used as a last resort, not a first. Native HTML is always a better choice when it serves the purpose.
  26. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 16:45
    [deborah_kaplan] Most web apps aren't really true webapps; google docs and slack are the exception rather than the rule. For the most part, users expect webpages to behave like webpages.
  27. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 16:45
    [deborah_kaplan] ARIA tabs, like role=application, are good for the webapp as non-webby interface tools, which should be rare.
  28. jnurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 18 16:45
    @deborah_kaplan well - it depends on what you work on.... for me web apps are the rule, and web pages are the exception :)
  29. jnurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 18 16:46
    role=application should almost never be used even in web apps
  30. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 16:46
    [deborah_kaplan] for some people, definitely, @jnurthen! But it's the exception
  31. jnurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 18 16:47
    i know what you are saying but there are a lot of web apps out there.... I know I work on many!
  32. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 16:48
    [deborah_kaplan] I'd argue that making web pages which don't behave like the web should be primarily restricted to tools users use so often they different UI and UX can become second nature: gmail, google docs stuff, facebook tools, slack... tools that users can become expert in. Otherwise, webapps should still follow the patterns users expect in their browsers.
  33. jnurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 18 16:50
    the problem is that the browser behaviour is really inefficient for a keyboard user. We need to do something about that. Like you I don't think we are ready (yet) for "web page" tabs to be ARIA tabs, but I hope the day will come when we are.
  34. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 16:50
    [deborah_kaplan] jnurthen++
  35. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 16:50
    [deborah_kaplan] Speaking here as a keyboard and voice user, I completely agree
  36. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 16:51
    [deborah_kaplan] I mean, I'm also a big advocate for ARIA being something that gets exposed not to AT -- so, for example, <div role=button> wouldn't need tabindex plus javascript, because the user agent would understand that the ARIA means it should change something about the keyboard work.
  37. jnurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 18 16:52
    that is not going to happen.....
  38. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 16:52
    [deborah_kaplan] Because of the hiding of ARIA in most cases from the non-AT enabled browsers, that worsens the keyboard experience
  39. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 16:52
    [deborah_kaplan] It won't if people don't advocate for it. :)
  40. jnurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 18 16:53
    the only way we can get ARIA implemented in browers is that it only changes things at the AT level.
  41. jnurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 18 16:54
    we have talked about changiong browser behaviour before (I remember a F2F at Mozilla in Toronto), particularly around adding things to the keyboard focus order with certain aria roles
  42. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 16:54
    [deborah_kaplan] I understand about the politics of it. But I also think that, in the long run, it's more practical to convince under 50 browser manufacturers to change the way they implement ARIA, than it is to convince hundreds of thousands of web developers to learn about the correct way to make a button div, using tabindex and keypress JS, and then have millions of users have to download an extra bit of JavaScript making all of the pages bigger.
  43. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 16:55
    [deborah_kaplan] I know the browser manufacturers are resistant, but it would solve so many problems.
  44. jnurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 18 16:55
    i'm actually very much against it as the default, as I've worked on a number of UIs where we deliberately exclude certain elements from the keyboard order becuase there are multiple methods of operating the same controls
  45. jnurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 18 16:55
    well - the browser makers would say, if you want all of that then use a <button>
  46. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 16:56
    [deborah_kaplan] so would I, to be fair. webdevs. :(
  47. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 16:56
    [deborah_kaplan] but that's not the reality.
  48. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 16:57
    [deborah_kaplan] Ultimately, I am confronted with countless page elements I can't access on websites. Many of them make it difficult for me to do my job. It's always going to be more successful to make it harder for individual web developers to fail.
  49. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 16:57
    [deborah_kaplan] And it's easy enough to exclude elements from the keyboard order.
  50. jnurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 18 16:57
    i think it is a fight we cannot fight though
  51. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 16:57
    [deborah_kaplan] Better having elements duplicated in the keyboard order than not there at all.
  52. jnurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 18 16:58
    anyway - have to start the APG call (if anyone else turns up!)
  53. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 16:59
    [deborah_kaplan] I guess I disagree. I know it's not a fight I can fight successfully -- I'm not on WAI-ARIA ;) -- but I'm (1) a keyboard user who is unable to use a lot of the web, and (2) an accessibility person constantly trying to train developers that there are *three* different things they need to do to every role=button (and all of the other examples of places I wish the browsers parsed the ARIA).
  54. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 16:59
    [deborah_kaplan] enjoy your call, And thanks for the conversation!
  55. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 17:07
    [alice] just catching up on the above conversation
  56. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 17:08
    [alice] I'm interested in the trade-offs between on the one hand, treating something like a tablist as a single tab stop which means fewer tab stops in the page to "tab through" to get to other UI; on the other, providing the more predictable "tab visits everything" behaviour
  57. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 18:00
    [deborah_kaplan] yeah -- @alice, I'd really like a settled behaviour. For both keyboard and screen reader users, a full sequential list of tabs is a problem--especially on mega menus. But the question of what is the most common behavior users will try is an open one. I think I would just like to have a lab with a bunch of usability tests.
  58. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 18:01
    [deborah_kaplan] I think I probably try arrow down, then space, then tab, then enter, then give up in frustration and close the page, in that order, but as users we tend to have inaccurate ideas of how we use computers, so I might be wrong about myself.
  59. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 18:24
    jnurthen, so landmarks is now in master?
  60. jnurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 18 18:28
    yep
  61. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 18:34
    Coolio.
  62. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 18:34
    One less thing to worry about.
  63. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 18:48
    The first time I ran into ARIA'd tab panels, I and a screen reader user were testing some pages for Sina
  64. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 18:48
    these pages clearly had devs who had read some specs and tried to aria-ise all the things
  65. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 18:48
    Neither I nor the SR user could figure out how to get to other tabs
  66. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 18:48
    Only later when reading up on the roles did we come to the page telling us how
  67. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 18:49
    Oh and the current aria tabs steal your page down arrow
  68. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 18:49
    that's evil beyond evil when the tabs are long
  69. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 18:49
    how the heck am I expected to read those long panels on a netbook????
  70. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 18:52
    [alice] I wonder if visual presentation affects how users expect the tabs to work
  71. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 18:52
    [alice] or any other contextual aspects
  72. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 18:54
    [deborah_kaplan] interesting. Probably, alice
  73. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 18:55
    [deborah_kaplan] Like, if they are modeled to look like Microsoft Windows drop-downs, or with down arrows, I might expect them to behave less webby and more app-y.
  74. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 18:55
    [deborah_kaplan] I would really love to see solid user testing on this
  75. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 18:56
    [alice] (thinking face emoji)
  76. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 18:57
    [feather] @deborah_kaplan We’re already discussing what other testing we want to run because we want to know more too
  77. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 18:57
    [deborah_kaplan] feather++
  78. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:09
    @feather make users have to use the things on netbooks or whatever has a non-high screen
  79. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:09
    zomg
  80. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:10
    hateses like a gollum hatses
  81. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:10
    it drives me nuts, and I can go plug in a mouse or reach for a crappy trackpad
  82. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:10
    if I could not... zomg there would be fire and broken machines everywhere
  83. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:14
    I think most importantly it proves that "well that's how desktop apps work" does not mean that's how web users will expect things. I kept getting told over and over about how desktop apps work... and now I cannot find the study that showed people recognising the side-arrow for Play and the double pipe for Pause when on a video recorder/DVD player, but not recognising them on a web page.
  84. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:14
    That and we've been trained for over a decade to tab. The arrows are pretty new for most webby things.
  85. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:15
    I guess if we decide we will use the ARIA-keyboard-rules, then web devs everywhere will have to start writing little how-tos to retrain people. Which would take years, but could be done.
  86. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:16
    APG should reflect what users do, not what we want them to do.
  87. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:16
    It's just hard to find out what users do :)
  88. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:16
    Watch old people
  89. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:16
    Anywhere
  90. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:16
    library
  91. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:16
    school
  92. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:16
    Or well, maybe not hard. Just takes time.
  93. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:17
    It's not easy necessarily to do "user tests" (otherwise we'd all be doing more)
  94. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:17
    but watching non-devs just in general
  95. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 19:17
    [alice] I do get the sense that "most" users don't touch the keyboard when not actually typing, though
  96. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:17
    That assumes there are times where I leave the house.
  97. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:17
    that's mostly doable IF we make sure we don't surround ourselves with only other developers.
  98. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:17
    @alice for mouse users, yeah
  99. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 19:17
    [alice] (something I have vague plans to get some stats on sometime...)
  100. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:17
    If you can see and use the keyboard, though, you don't use a mouse to scroll, for example.
  101. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:18
    But good news, APG is teaming up with WordPress a11y team to do more user testing :)
  102. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:18
    Just need to work on test scenarios etc.
  103. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:18
    And I assume what I do when I get stuck on a page, isn't what "normal" (non-dev) people do, as I haven't seen people do it... I hit ctrl-l to get to the address bar since from there I can re-start into the page.
  104. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 18 19:18
    APG?
  105. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:18
    It'll probably be something we actively start after ARIA 1.1
  106. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:18
    I'm prolly the only person who does that tho
  107. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:18
    Because we need to get shit done.
  108. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:18
    Authoring Practices Guide.
  109. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 18 19:19
    Tx, will look it up
  110. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:19
    Teaming up with WP is prolly going to be really good
  111. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:19
    Jkva, you've never seen it?
  112. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 18 19:19
    No
  113. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 18 19:19
    Have you forgotten how new I am to this stuff :P
  114. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:19
    StommePoes, yeah hope it works out. But I have faith in Rian's minions.
  115. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 18 19:19
    But yeah this looks like something I should've seen before
  116. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:20
    oooh... Rian's minions.
  117. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 18 19:20
    Papoi?
  118. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:20
    Think I've mentioned it before ;)
  119. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:20
    I get npm testing errors complaining about TokTypes... makes me think of minions-talk
  120. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:20
    tokTyp?
  121. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:20
    tokTyp!
  122. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:21
    Banana
  123. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:21
    BANANAAAA
  124. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:21
    Bahahahwah
  125. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:21
    I watched a live user test where the person struggled with our (somewhat typical) create-account page
  126. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:22
    You need to type in your email address twice
  127. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:22
    Tester really didn't understand the point of that
  128. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:22
    thought we needed two emails
  129. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:22
    @jkva, here is the latest version: http://w3c.github.io/aria/practices/aria-practices.html
  130. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:22
    then got the error message "they don't match! They need to match"
  131. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:22
    then matching was difficult, spaces kept ending up in one email or the other
  132. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 18 19:22
    Thanks Dinomite
  133. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:22
    after 5 minutes getting the emails sorted our, next field was Password. Tester asks "do you want my email password?"
  134. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:23
    Pages that require two e-mail address' suck.
  135. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:23
    because hey, email is on their mind as they just dealt with a lot of email-gedoe
  136. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 18 19:23
    Dinomike?
  137. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:23
    dinomike...
  138. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:23
    dinomichiel...
  139. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 18 19:23
    Needs theme song
  140. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:23
    as Steve would say... DinoMitch?
  141. MichielBijl @MichielBijl waits for Steve jump in and yell DinoMitch
  142. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:23
    Dinonomych
  143. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 18 19:23
    Mikosaurus
  144. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:23
    You typed faster than I did Mall…
  145. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:23
    Michielodon
  146. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:23
    =D
  147. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:24
    That one sounds like a real dino name, too bad it means Michiel tooth
  148. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:24
    I can live with that
  149. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:24
    The Michielodon is known only by his tooth... and his onesie
  150. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:24
    It's like Sabertooth; those were cool.
  151. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 18 19:25
    Smilodon Stolidus
  152. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 18 19:25
    Smilodon Stolida
  153. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 18 19:25
    Since female
  154. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 18 19:25
    Stupid sabertooth
  155. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:26
    StomaPoes
  156. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 18 19:26
    Vulgaris Magistralis
  157. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:27
    felis bardus
  158. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 18 19:27
    https://youtu.be/reOLeLX0Q9U
  159. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:27
    Romanes eunt domus!
  160. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:28
    skøre kat
  161. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 18 19:28
    Lieber Katze <3
  162. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:28
    SchweinKatze
  163. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:29
    pigkitty???
  164. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:29
    StultusCattus
  165. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:29
    Well, as opposed to Schweinhund…
  166. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:31
    @jnurthen do you have time to update the ED of the APG?
  167. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:32
    I'm way too busy making up names for StommePoes
  168. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:32
    And should really be working on a website…
  169. jnurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 18 19:32
    i need lunch now
  170. jnurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 18 19:32
    just got off back to back to back meetings and forgot to eat breakfast so i'm running only on coffee at the moment
  171. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:33
    Yeah I need foods too.
  172. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 18 19:33
    At least your coffee machine isn't broken
  173. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:33
    Running on a hotdog and sauseizenbroodje I got this morning…
  174. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 18 19:35
    mmm pig-in-a-blanket
  175. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:36
    Is that what it is called in English?
  176. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 18 19:42
    Hmm no I thought it was, but is apparently more of a sausage-in-a-croissant (genius!). Saucijzenbroodje is the less imaginative "sausage roll", according to WikiPedia.
  177. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 19:43

    [karlgroves] >Is that what it is called in English?

    Yes.

  178. jnurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 18 19:43
    Pig in blanket is an American sausage roll
  179. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 19:44
    [jhausler] is it safe to ask a tab question that isn’t about the jeff smith article?
  180. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 18 19:45
    You can ask a question about Jeff Smith article, or sausage rolls. Pick one.
  181. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 19:45
    [jhausler] i’ll take that as a no...
  182. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:45
    We also have some whiksy and beer specialist if you need that.
  183. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:46
    You can ask whatever you want :)
  184. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 18 19:46
    I wasn't serious jhausler, go ahead
  185. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 19:46
    [jhausler] :)
  186. jnurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 18 19:46
    It is never safe to ask a question.
  187. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:46
    ask away. We're all tabby experts
  188. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:46
    tabbies are kitties
  189. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 18 19:46
    Last time I checked, I have no authority here whatsoever ;)
  190. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 18 19:46
    tabby cats
  191. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 18 19:46
    it's purrrrfectly safe
  192. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 19:46
    [jhausler] ok, so say you aren’t swayed by Jeff and you build proper aria based tabs with arrow key navigation, etc..
  193. jkva @jkva holds his tongue
  194. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:47
    wash those hands before holding your tongue
  195. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:47
    ew
  196. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 19:47
    [jhausler] the idea behind that is that you tab to the tabset.. arrow to the tab you want, then press Tab key to enter the tabpanel
  197. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:47
    or they use focus()
  198. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 18 19:47
    Right
  199. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:47
    one is passive, one is actuve
  200. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:47
    there are two methods
  201. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:47
    active
  202. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:48
    these ones just show tabs on focus http://stommepoes.nl/work/tab_panel.html
  203. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 19:48
    [jhausler] so it would be improper to place other focusable items between the tabs and the tab panel, correct?
  204. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:48
    It would be weird...
  205. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 19:48
    [jhausler] agreed
  206. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:48
    @jhausler, yes.
  207. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 19:48
    [jhausler] now.. saw you have an overflow menu for your tabs (also proper according to aria, JS, etc)
  208. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 19:49
    [jhausler] say* you have
  209. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:49
    overflow menu?
  210. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 19:49
    [jhausler] i ahve 20 open tabs and only room enough in my browser for 5
  211. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:49
    o
  212. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 19:49
    [jhausler] so 15 go into a menu
  213. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 19:49
    [jhausler] question comes now...
  214. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:49
    The research data that we have at the moment tells us that both the current APG recommendation and the tab to all tabs in the tablist and activate with space/enter are seen as equally accessible/usable.
  215. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:50
    There are definite downsides to what the APG currently tells you as in that it captures your down/up-arrows. And some people use those to scroll pages.
  216. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:51
    So, it might change.
  217. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 19:51
    [jhausler] ok, so the question…. what would be stranger.. having ot tab past my menu trigger to get to the tabpanel, or having ot arrow to the menu trigger?
  218. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:51
    if the tabs were normally activated by focus, then the menu could be opened with enter. Howeve rif the tabs are activated by enter then I'm not sure what one expects if enter now does something else... this is a question that has hit people trying to decide how to deal with submenus in a webby navigation menu... what should click do?
  219. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:51
    I think if your aria tab panels are using arrows, it makes more sense to have arrow also hit the menu
  220. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:51
    but...
  221. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:51
    I don't think there should be that many tabs in an interface.
  222. jnurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 18 19:51
    I think the menu trigger in this example is just an extension of the tabs
  223. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:51
    you'd have to test on a group of aria-tab-panel users
  224. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:52
    that is, people who are used to teh aria-style tab menus
  225. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:52
    So, I think this is a problem that is not with tabs, but with the chose UI to start with.
  226. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:52
    chosen*
  227. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 19:52
    [jhausler] you can open as many tabs as you want in my interface.. it’s the users’ call. we just have to provide a way to deal with them if it gets to big for the screen.
  228. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:52
    like what opera used to do
  229. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:52
    Ah, okay.
  230. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:53
    Well, maybe visual arrows to scroll to moar tabs?
  231. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:53
    it might be that the menu itself would have to be seen as a "tab"
  232. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:53
    and thus needs to be acticated the same way you activate any tab
  233. jnurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 18 19:53
    How about just scrolling the tabs into view. I think this is what we do most of the time
  234. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 19:53
    [feather] @jhausler: I’m goign to go tell Jeff that the article is being referred to as “The Jeff Smith Article” — he might like that ;)
  235. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:53
    but here, its activation somehow brings up more... tabs
  236. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:53
    tabception
  237. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:54
    it works because Jeff Smith is only a few letters off John Smith which is another name for John Doe
  238. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 19:54
    [feather] @stommepoes: I won’t tell him that part ;)
  239. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:54
    ARIA tabs can be called "Non-Jeff-Smith tab panels"
  240. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 19:54
    [jhausler] @feather: haha.. i hope i didnt’ coin the phrase :)
  241. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:54
    I can totally put that in there
  242. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:55
    NJS tab panels
  243. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:55
    We can have both…
  244. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:55
    vs the Webby tabby panels
  245. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:55
    2.22 Jeff Smith Tab Panels and 2.23 Non-Jeff Smith Tab Panels.
  246. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 19:55
    [feather] screencaps all this business
  247. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 19:56
    [jhausler] so i have 1 vote for “arrow to the menu trigger”? i wouldn’t want to put role=“tab” on it though.. since it doesn’t control a panel. it would have aria-haspopup=“true” since it’s a menu trigger..
  248. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:56
    In the Perl community, there were these old nasty Perl scripts written by a kid who barely knew Perl, but just enough to get things done. He released these as "Matt' Scripts". The Perl community worked long and hard to remove these from coming up as 1 on Google... with a site called Not Matts Scripts and the perl files called nms
  249. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:57
    hm then you'll get a focusable among the tabs which itself is not a tab
  250. jnurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 18 19:57
    you can't put anything else in a tablist though other than tabs....
  251. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 19:57
    [feather] @stommepoes: I remember those. I remember learning Perl from them. I remember renouncing them very quickly :)
  252. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:57
    And you can't give it some other role because a tabpanel has tabs as children, not other things...
  253. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:57
    See feather, the damage done by matt's scripts?
  254. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:57
    you coulda been a Perler
  255. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 19:58
    [jhausler] so. then i have to put the menu outside of the tabs and force the user to tab past it everytime?
  256. jnurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 18 19:58
    or don't use a menu
  257. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 19:58
    [jhausler] not an option
  258. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:58
    Well, I guess that it'd be okay to have a menu button between the tablist and tabpanels in this case.
  259. jnurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 18 19:58
    just allow the tabs to scroll - kind of like this
  260. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:58
    could you make the menu a child of the last panel?
  261. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:59
    er a button
  262. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 19:59
    [jhausler] i’m not the designer. it’s not an option.
  263. jnurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 18 19:59
    (make narrower and look at no truncation option)
  264. jnurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 18 19:59
    http://jet.us.oracle.com/2.0.1/uiComponents-tabs-tabSizeBehavior.html
  265. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:59
    Designers love feedback right?
  266. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 19:59
    that when user activates it the usual way (like a button), they then get moar tabs above (the first ones go offscreen) and focus back to top, to these new tabs?
  267. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 19:59
    I can't find that server James.
  268. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 20:00
    What do browsers do... they usually make the last tab a tab with only a symbol
  269. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 20:00
    [jhausler] cool.. thanks for all of your feedback everyone.
  270. jnurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 18 20:00
    oops - internal version
  271. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 20:00
    [jhausler] gotta jump on a call.
  272. jnurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 18 20:00
    i'll get the external url
  273. jnurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 18 20:01
    http://www.oracle.com/webfolder/technetwork/jet/uiComponents-tabs-tabSizeBehavior.html
  274. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 20:02
    alt=screenshot of Safari shows tabbar with too many tabs. Extra tabs are hidden till user activates a tab more to the start of the list. https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/JpQzl3u0/Screen%20Shot%202016-04-18%20at%2022.01.09.png
  275. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 20:03
    @James, that's what I'd do.
  276. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 20:03
    Arrows not in taborder at all.
  277. jnurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 18 20:04
    yep
  278. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 20:05
    can you get to that + using the same keystrokes as moving to next tab?
  279. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 20:07
    OS X tabs != NJS tabs.
  280. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 20:07
    in Linux I can CTRL+TAB and CTRL+Shift+TAB to move around tabs
  281. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 20:07
    but I have no idea what the hell apple decided to do
  282. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 20:07
    On OS X too.
  283. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 20:08
    You can also tab to all tabs.
  284. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 20:08
    not on any page where focus is on the page...
  285. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 20:08
    And to that plus thingy.
  286. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 20:08
    how do I tab to tabs if tab moves to next focusable??
  287. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 20:08
    so you have to switch what you do to get to the plus thingie?
  288. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 20:08
    Tab all the way back to the UI.
  289. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 20:09
    But Safari's UI is horrible for tabbing around.
  290. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 20:09
    I can never figure it out.
  291. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 20:09
    Hm I can't get focus to my tabs
  292. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 20:09
    I know a decent part of the shortcuts though.
  293. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 20:10
    I can get focus to the tabs in firefox, but then arrows move it as usual
  294. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 20:10
    so cmd+t for new tab, cmd+z to unclose previously closed tab, etc.
  295. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 20:10
    ctrl chift t
  296. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 20:11
    to unc-lose a tab
  297. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 20:11
    macs are so weird
  298. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 20:11
    zomg
  299. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 20:11
    cmd+shift+t does hide/show tabbar in Safari
  300. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 20:11
    I could never switch
  301. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 20:11
    Yeap
  302. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 20:11
    OS X isn't build for keyboarders.
  303. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 20:11
    You should stay with Linux.
  304. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 20:11
    it's built for turtlenecks
  305. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 20:12
    And mouseses
  306. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 20:24
    It's sad that Safari is still the only browser that supports font kerning.
  307. jnurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 18 20:25
    http://caniuse.com/#feat=font-kerning
  308. jnurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 18 20:25
    or did you mean something else?
  309. jnurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 18 20:26
    and I can breathe a little easier now as it is 2-0 :)
  310. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 20:36
    Hmm, must've been using an outdated source…
  311. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 18 20:52
    true type can do kerning via hints I thought?
  312. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 18 20:54
    Yes
  313. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 20:56
    Even on ze web?
  314. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 18 21:06
    Think so, since it's the rendering engine in windows
  315. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 18 21:09
    Not so much kerning, more the entire font rendering. TTF gets pretty shitty without proper hinting
  316. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 22:36
    Woah, there is a sign for iPhone in Dutch sign language …
  317. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 22:37
    I'm not mature enough to watch the one for masturbation.
  318. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 22:39
    The one for cowboy is pretty cool.
  319. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 22:42
    It's pretty hard to find out what dinosaur is in sign language.
  320. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 22:43
    [nschonni] @michiel: you need to impersonate the T-rex from the original Jurassic Park
  321. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 22:43
    [nschonni] the hard part is getting the banner to fall behind you at the right speed
  322. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 23:19
    =D
  323. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 23:19
    Now that's a challenge
  324. MichielBijl @MichielBijl is launching a website at 1:19 in the morning like a n00b
  325. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 23:20
    [nschonni] that's fine. Just keep the clipart "Under Construction" images handy
  326. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 23:21
    [nschonni] alt="I paid a webmaster and then they stopped returning my faxes"
  327. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 23:34
    Meh, I just nuked the website…
  328. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 23:34
    It's for a owners association.
  329. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 23:34
    an*
  330. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 23:34
    They're all asleep.
  331. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 23:34
    And nobody has complained, so it's probably fine :P
  332. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 23:35
    They want password protection, so I
  333. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 23:35
    I'm setting that up with .htaccess
  334. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 23:35
    Nice and safe :P
  335. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 23:37
    [karlgroves] TPG hires the best
  336. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 23:39
    [nschonni] A11y Midnight Cowboy
  337. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 23:42
    Can you have nested .htaccess?
  338. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 23:43
    So: /files has one, which gives access to user1 and user2
  339. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 23:43
    And /files/board/ has one that only gives access to user2
  340. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 23:44
    Or do I have to copy my htaccess to all the folders in /files that I want to have accessible by user1 and user2?
  341. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 18 23:47
    [nschonni] think it's just one in the root with different sections http://www.askapache.com/htaccess/htaccess.html#Protect_wp-content
  342. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 23:53
    Ah
  343. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 23:53
    Yeah I'm n00b like that, but it has worked: http://acquavista.nl/
  344. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 23:53
    I'll make it easier on myself if I feel like it.
  345. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 23:53
    They're not paying me, so I don't want to put too much effort into it.
  346. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 23:53
    Basically, it's a copy of my blog with some tweaks :P
  347. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 23:54
    That's how lazy I am.
  348. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 23:54
    Saved a bunch of cost on development though.
  349. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 18 23:56
    That is also the reason I don't link to myself in the footer, that would make it a tad to obvious.