Archive index

A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 26th of April 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. mikaelR
    @cr2a-graphique
    Apr 26 07:16
    Hi slacker
  2. mikaelR
    @cr2a-graphique
    Apr 26 07:23
    Is any rule about focus placement after page load ? for exemple if i click on a menu on side bar , were the focus had to be on the next page ?
  3. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 07:27
    [hhillen] If the entire page reloads it’s custom to not reset focus to where it was originally.
  4. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 07:27
    [hhillen] You basically linked to a new page so you start at the top there
  5. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 07:28
    [hhillen] It’s different if you activate a control that updates a different part of the page, while that original control (e.g. the menu in the sidebar) remains the same (e.g. doesn’t reload)
  6. mikaelR
    @cr2a-graphique
    Apr 26 07:30
    thanks , bot?
  7. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 07:30
    [hhillen] There are a few exceptions, like where the entire page reloads but you’re simulating a dynamic action. For example, if you change the sorting direction on a data table column, and as a result the entire page is reloaded, it’s acceptable to reset focus to the column sorter link
  8. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 07:31
    [hhillen] because normally such an action wouldn’t warrant a complete page reload.
  9. mikaelR
    @cr2a-graphique
    Apr 26 07:31
    that's good thanks bro, bot, hhillen :)
  10. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 07:32
    [hhillen] np :)
  11. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 08:40
    [chris__pearce] Hi, what is the best way to apply the aria-required=“true” attribute to radio buttons in a set? I’ve seen examples where ppl suggest applying the attribute to the <ul> element if they’re in a list, which mine always are, and nested in a <fieldset> with a <legend>. And what about applying the required attribute?
  12. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 08:51
    I've only heard it can go onto the fieldset surrounding them, as setting it on the inputs themselves makes no sense
  13. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 08:52
    but there was something weird about it-- you either could set it on real fieldsets but not something else with role=radiogroup or other way around.. when we expect the two should match up in abilities.
  14. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 08:52
    I would not put the required attribute on the radios themselves-- they can't all be selected, therefore they can't all be required :) but aria-required I believe can go on the fieldset/grouping element.
  15. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 08:53
    I don't think you can just put it on a list though-- lists have list semantics, and there's no concept of "required" in a list.
  16. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 08:53
    It
  17. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 08:53
    It's why I don't care for lists in forms.
  18. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 08:54
    [hhillen] If you set aria-required=“true” to the element with the radiogroup role
  19. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 08:54
    @stevefaulkner do you see patrick lauke in the UK? If so, we can give you some sambal oelek to take back for him
  20. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 08:54
    hans I can't think how the browser or the AT would deal with an "error" in that case.
  21. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 08:54
    now that I think of it
  22. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 08:54
    [hhillen] You would have to leave all radio buttons unchecked by default
  23. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 08:55
    I think my browsers have always selected the first radio if none had the checked attr
  24. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 08:55
    or, they did back in the day
  25. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 08:55
    [hhillen] From what I remember some UA/AT combos announce it, it might have been FF/JAWS
  26. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 08:55
    I remember reading recently someone checking fieldsets vs div role=radiogroup or similar with requireds... and there were things not consistent.
  27. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 08:56
    [hhillen] No you can have them all unchecked, although if you check one that selection will persist through most page refresh unless you clear cache
  28. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 08:56
    [hhillen] Oh things are definitely not consistent :)
  29. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 08:57
    [hhillen] found a new tag line for the ARIA spec
  30. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 26 08:57
    Haha
  31. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 08:57
    That's better than the WHATWG tagline
  32. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 08:57
    ok michiel, let's make a T-shirt
  33. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 26 08:58
    Fragmentation spec, breaking the web one fragment at a time.
  34. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 26 08:59
    (That's the actual line)
  35. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 08:59
    I like the "Oh things are definitely not consistent"
  36. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 26 08:59
    StommePoes, we have to open a t-shirt shop…
  37. mikaelR
    @cr2a-graphique
    Apr 26 09:00
    i can make you some tshirt design if u want :) thats an old job of my work time
  38. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:04
    [hhillen] So the HTML5 spec says you should set the required attribute on one radio button if that’s the only valid option (e.g. agreeing with terms of service). Alternatively you can add the required attrib to each radio button if they are initially unchecked and a selection has to be made (not recommended as you cannot “undo” this type of selection).
  39. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:04
    it makes sense a bit for a checkbox
  40. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:04
    "i agree to these evil terms and conditions"
  41. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:04
    a radio, not so much... because having just one is weird.
  42. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:05
    [hhillen] No in that cas there would be two
  43. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:05
    [jitendra] Does anyone have Amazon Echo here? Can it read webpages like Screen reader do? It would be cool and good for a11y.
  44. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 26 09:05
    Setting it to fieldset feels dirty. Can you actually do that?
  45. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:05
    [hhillen] No you can’t
  46. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 26 09:06
    Phwew
  47. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:06
    [hhillen] It would kind of make sense if you could though
  48. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:07
    Maybe it was then that you cannot on a fieldset but could on a div with the appropriate role
  49. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:07
    I remember someone pointing out how that didn't make sense... might have been in here even
  50. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:08
    [hhillen] only radiogroup
  51. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:09
    yeah
  52. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:09
    [hhillen] but yeah, the whole concept is a bit awkward and inconsistent
  53. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:09
    [chris__pearce] Thanks guys. So ditch the list semantics, wrap the radio buttons in a <div> with role=“radiogroup”?
  54. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:09
    [hhillen] Ding, another T-shirt
  55. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:10
    Maybe lists are a personal thing, I personally have always disliked lists in forms. Other people find them popular
  56. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:10
    [hhillen] chris__pearce: Yeah you don’t really need a list there
  57. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:10
    I won't say using them will make your form inaccessible since people (with AT) are used to dealing with so many forms filled with lists anyway
  58. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:11
    [hhillen] The radio group in itself is basically a numbered list
  59. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:11
    One argument I've heard was "it's handy to hear how many questions a form has" but I think you can offer that without lists too, if it's dynamic use JS and add some text before the form or whatever.
  60. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:12
    And so Chris you're thinking using a div with radiogroup role so you can add aria-required?
  61. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:12
    I would test it if I were you on a few of the big ones... JAWS+IE, NVDA+FF, VO+Saffy...
  62. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:12
    and it's possible some combo (or anything not latest and greatest) doesn't announce.
  63. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:12
    [hhillen] Yeah
  64. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:12
    So maybe some text that explicitly says this is a good idea
  65. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:12
    plus sighties, we wanna know too
  66. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:13
    [chris__pearce] Like this:
        <legend>Legend text</legend>     <div role=“radiogroup” aria-required=“true”>         <label for=“radio1”>Radio button 1</label>         <input type=“radio” id=“radio”>         <label for=“radio2”>Radio button 2</label>         <input type=“radio” id=“radio2”>         <label for=“radio3”>Radio button 3</label>         <input type=“radio” id=“radio3”>     </div> </fieldset>
    
  67. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:13
    [chris__pearce] ?
  68. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:13
    [hhillen] no
  69. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:13
    if a radiogroup is sort of a replacement for a fieldset, wouldn't the legend go inside?
  70. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:13
    [hhillen] you’re doubling up now
  71. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:13
    [hhillen] either use the fieldset or the radio group
  72. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:13
    [chris__pearce] ah ok
  73. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:14
    [chris__pearce] hmm seems odd then as the <fieldset> is the natively semantic element for grouping form inputs :)
  74. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:14
    Wow, trying to find a basic, accessible HTML calendar to offer to developers wanting an example is hard... they're all either Javascripted date pickers or they're old and use headers attrs for ALL THE THINGS (which we really don't need, our columns are normal)
  75. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:14
    [hhillen] Since adding aria-required on the radiogroup role is not so consistent (s mentioned above), you can also just add some descriptive text in the fieldset legend / radiogroup label, indicating that a selection must be made
  76. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:14
    I would do that ^
  77. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:16
    [chris__pearce] ok thanks
  78. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:16
    [chris__pearce] so no <legend> then I guess as it wouldn’t make sense without a <fieldset>?
  79. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:18
    I wonder if you can get away with the div with role + legend
  80. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:18
    the validator might whine
  81. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:18
    [som] Is there a reason you don’t simply add required to all the inputs? surely it needs to be on one for non-a11y reasons anyway?
  82. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:18
    legends are great in that you don't need to add any aria-junk to ensure it's treated like a form control and not like a <p>
  83. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:19
    @som if every radio is required then how does the user do that?
  84. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:19
    select all of them? :P
  85. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:19
    I did that as a kid
  86. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:19
    I made ALL the radio buttons in the car "off"
  87. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:20
    you couldn't press them all in, but you could press one down just enough that it released the selected radio station.
  88. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:20
    [som] radios are grouped by name, so whether all or one have a required it doesn’t matter
  89. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:20
    [som] according to the spec anyway
  90. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:22
    [som] it seems to work anyway, not sure about a11y but VO just reads required on each selection
  91. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:23
    [chris__pearce] @som: I want to add both attributes for maximum support, do we still need aria-required if required is being used?
  92. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:23
    ...not normally on inputs.
  93. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:23
    [som] i’d expect aria-required is implicit in required, but I’m not sure
  94. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:24
    [som] there you go :)
  95. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:24
    required is implicit aria-required
  96. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:24
    [hhillen] chris__pearce: No you do need the legend
  97. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:24
    the reason some of us use aria-required instead of required is to avoid the browser default error messages
  98. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:24
    [hhillen] It’s how fieldsets are labeled
  99. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:24
    esp if the browser is still pulling that "you focussed on an input but haven't typed anything yet so your WRONG go die"
  100. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:24
    I hate that
  101. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:25
    wait til I've blurred to tell me it's wrong
  102. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:25
    The login for IndieGoGo irritatingly tells me my email address isn't valid while I'm not yet done typing it
  103. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:25
    I just want to slap the form in the face
  104. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:26
    [chris__pearce] @hhillen: so I can use <legend> even when it’s direct parent is <div role=“radiogroup”> ?
  105. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:27
    [hhillen] chris__pearce: Sorry no, only if you take the <fieldset> approach
  106. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:28
    [chris__pearce] which seems I can’t as it’s not optimal for a11y
  107. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:28
    [hhillen] If you use role=“radiogroup”, you’ll have to label the group through aria-labelledby (or title or aria-label)
  108. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:28
    <div role=radiogroup aria-labelledby=foo>
    <legend id=foo>I AM LEGEND</legend>
    ...
    </div>
  109. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:29
    or a p, maybe.
  110. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:29
    depends if you care about the validator.
  111. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:29
    [hhillen] Sorry I skipped parts of the conversation, why is fieldset not optimal, because of the aria-required thing?
  112. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:30
    [chris__pearce] yes
  113. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:30
    [hhillen] Right, so you can provide an equivalent feature by manually adding text to the fieldset’s legend
  114. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:30
    [som] technically it shouldn’t validate until the user submits .. so probs a rookie dev mistake on indiegogo .. but yep agreed the default notifications are a bit crap
  115. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:30
    [hhillen] e.g. “select one option in order to proceed "
  116. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 09:31
    good morning slackers!
  117. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:31
    Hi!
  118. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 09:31

    @StommePoes

    hey but I should bug @pkra about people messing with math to make it sound "normal"

    What's up?

  119. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:31
    Oh man
  120. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:31
    it was nasty
  121. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:32
    I asked some done-with-school mathers if the description made sense and they were all like lolwut no
  122. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 09:32
    sorry to hear that.
  123. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:33

    [chris__pearce] @hhillen: something like this:

    ```<div role=“radiogroup” aria-required=“true” aria-labelledby="legend-1">
    <p id="legend-1">Legend text</p>
    <label for=“radio1”>Radio button 1</label>
    <input type=“radio” id=“radio” required>
    <label for=“radio2”>Radio button 2</label>
    <input type=“radio” id=“radio2” required>
    <label for=“radio3”>Radio button 3</label>
    <input type=“radio” id=“radio3” required>
    </div>

     OR  ```<fieldset>     <legend>Legend text<span class="hide-visually"> one radio button is required</span></legend>     <label for=“radio1”>Radio button 1</label>     <input type=“radio” id=“radio” required>     <label for=“radio2”>Radio button 2</label>     <input type=“radio” id=“radio2” required>     <label for=“radio3”>Radio button 3</label>     <input type=“radio” id=“radio3” required> </fieldset>
    
  124. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 09:33
    @StommePoes oh wow.
  125. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 09:33
    [chris__pearce] note the required attributes on the radio buttons (on both examples), I’m assuming that’s legit?
  126. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:33
    Yeah and the vendor was like "well parens are distracting so we removed them and put commas in instead"
  127. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 09:34
    hah.
  128. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 09:34
    have some underlying markup?
  129. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:34
    Meaning: they only listened in JAWS
  130. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:34
    Um.. well they have MathJax but they stuff it all into an aria-hidden span
  131. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 09:34
    From the speech I'm guessing "labeled" means some curly underparens?
  132. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:34
    so for SR users, there's only the span called "alt-text-math"
  133. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:34
    Yeah
  134. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 09:34
    ouch.
  135. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:34
    I asked cam what those were and he was like "I dunno but clearly a label so just call it a label"
  136. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 09:34
    Behold, the problem of math accessibility.
  137. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:35
    because I was trying to describe on twitter and was like "upside-down curly brackets"
  138. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 09:35
    :)
  139. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:35
    because I couldn't tell if that was a math thing or not
  140. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 09:35
    underbrace and overbrace is common b/c LaTeX macros are named that way.
  141. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:35
    Cam said he would just want something that could read math the way a math professor would
  142. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:35
    oh good one
  143. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:36
    but so my first response before seeeing that text to the vendor was 'that could make problems"
  144. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 09:36
    in MathML terms, probably "munder with stretchy accents"
  145. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:36
    but now that I see it, zomg I can see it's pretty worthless
  146. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 09:36

    but so my first response before seeeing that text to the vendor was 'that could make problems"

    :shipit:

  147. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 09:36
    :D
  148. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:36
    well they were doing x+y, =4
  149. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:36
    adding commas so it "sounded nice'
  150. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 09:36
    ouch ouch ouch
  151. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:36
    well but Cam was like "yeah I like more pauses"
  152. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:37
    which makes sense when your SR smooshes everything together
  153. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:37
    but then if you go letter by letter there's commas in there
  154. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 09:37
    totally.
  155. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 09:37
    hehe.
  156. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:37
    and SRs do different things anway
  157. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:37
    JAWS reads out parens but VO and NVDA just pause where they are
  158. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 09:37
    right.
  159. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:37
    so thes epeople would be getting their pauses with () in VO for free...
  160. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:38
    but actually now I have to just test their whole page with JAWS because looks like they didn't bother testing anything in IE, the best browser for JAWS ...
  161. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 09:38
    FWIW those kinds of "annotations" (undebrace with a text comment) are pretty much out of scope for all math a11y tech right now.
  162. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:38
    well but so the alt text for them should say something about "this chunk is labelled so"
  163. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:38
    because it's explaining an equation, not just showing one.
  164. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 09:38

    looks like they didn't bother testing anything in IE, the best browser for JAWS ...

    Good job, team!

  165. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 09:39
    right.
  166. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 09:39
    To some degree it's "just" the fundamental problem of alt-text
  167. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 09:40
    "deep" aria-labels could improve this as they allow some level of navigation (cf. http://codepen.io/pkra/pen/zqrwQx)
  168. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 09:41
    There's also a connection to SVG a11y where one wants to provide top-level summaries ("a picture of a red house) with detailed explorations ("a door with a window") and somehow sensibly navigate those with AT.
  169. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 09:41
    oh well.
  170. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 09:42
    (btw for that codepen, look for the last examples)
  171. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:43
    since they're aria-hiding all the math, I don't think I can get them to show all that
  172. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:43
    it's like <span aria-hidden=true> ...bunch of mathJax generated math...</span><span fake-alt-text.../>
  173. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 09:44
    Right. Sorry, was thinking about how this should be solved.
  174. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:45
    yeah
  175. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:45
    They seem to have decided to just let the alt text do everything, which can work... but not with the kind of text they have now
  176. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:46
    nobody seems to ahve any idea what that means and on Twitter they thought there was supposed to be a table
  177. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:46
    becuase the rows were mentioned
  178. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 09:46
    I've added an image of the fomula
  179. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 09:47
    Thanks for the image.
  180. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 09:47
    oh god.
  181. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 09:48
    so "table" probably means that somebody used a table to do a linebreak underneath the underbrace.
  182. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 09:48
    :crying_cat_face:
  183. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 09:48
    well, garbage in, garbage out.
  184. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 09:51
    I guess the "correct" description would put the visual annotation somewhere else entirely.
  185. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 09:51
    but I don't see a good way to do this computationally.
  186. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 09:59
    @StommePoes Here's what our SRE-based extension might produce from an input without those pesky linebreaks
  187. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 09:59
    "ModifyingBelow f left-parenthesis t plus 1 right-parenthesis With bottom-brace Underscript distance at time t plus 1 Endscripts equals ModifyingBelow f left-parenthesis t right-parenthesis With bottom-brace Underscript distance at time t Endscripts plus 2"
  188. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 10:00
    that's with a verbose setting.
  189. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 10:02
    (here's what I used: \underbrace{f(t+1)}_{\text{distance at } \text{time } t+1} = \underbrace{f(t)}_{\text{distance at } \text{time } t} + 2 in http://mathjax.github.io/MathJax-RespEq/Semantics-Lab/walker/)
  190. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 10:06
    Yeah they don't use a table but I think their generator (if this is generated) looks at those mrows and called them table rows
  191. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 10:08
    The kids I talked to on Twitter liked (for simple math anyway) the ascii alts of wikipedia
  192. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 10:12

    Yeah they don't use a table but I think their generator (if this is generated) looks at those mrows and called them table rows

    Well, if it rendered like your image but using MathJax, then I think they need something stronger since MathJax does not support line-breaking in an munder right now (so I just filed mathjax/MathJax#1449 :) )

  193. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 10:14
    lemme post the generated stuff
  194. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 10:14

    The kids I talked to on Twitter liked (for simple math anyway) the ascii alts of wikipedia

    Well, those are TeX code. Which might work if you know TeX. From what I understand most English-speaking students don't learn TeX (since Nemeth's mathspeak is much older than computers and well established IIUC). Though, e.g., from a German researcher I heard that in Germany there's no such tradition so students learn TeX early on.

  195. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 10:15
    The thing is: I think with just 1 or 2 ARIA features, we could enable deeply-nested labels that SR could use easily to create sensible voicing and navigation.
  196. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 10:16
    and that's not just useful for math, I think.
  197. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 10:16
    Anyhow.
  198. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 10:16
    There's also simply an authoring problem in such examples, at least in today's state of AT.
  199. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 10:17
    huh, there's so much generated stuff I can't even post one equation
  200. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Apr 26 10:18
    :)
  201. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 26 10:57
    shift f10 doesn't consistently open the mathy menu... I only got it to work once
  202. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 26 12:01
    I was asked to write a blog post on why accessibility is important "and to show the passion I felt for it"
  203. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 26 12:05
    That still gives me goose bumps
  204. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 26 12:07
    "THESE ARE NOT POLITE SUGGESTIONS!"
  205. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 26 12:07
    heheh
  206. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 26 12:07
    And webdevs we shall be, for thee Sir Tim, for thee
  207. Jon Metz
    @metzessible
    Apr 26 13:47
    Oh man, I can see it now..
  208. Jon Metz
    @metzessible
    Apr 26 13:49
    "Sources say they came together for a conversation about Longdesc..."
  209. Jon Metz
    @metzessible
    Apr 26 13:49
    THERE WAS A FIRE FIGHT!!
  210. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 26 13:50
    =D
  211. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 26 13:50
    Brilliant!
  212. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 26 13:51
    "My name is Hixie, and this web is closing NOW."
  213. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 26 13:52
    @BruceL in drag
  214. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 26 13:54
    Haha
  215. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 26 13:55
    And six guys are awaiting them…
  216. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 26 13:55
    …it was actually just Patrick Lauke.
  217. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 26 13:55
    Assuming the conversation was about pixels trying to make a point.
  218. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 26 13:59
    Ha!
  219. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 14:13
    [johnnykamikaze] anyone have experience with http://www.accessibilityoz.com/ozplayer/ or other video players you'd recommend?
  220. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 26 14:16
    I just finished a project on video players. I reviewed JW Player, Flowplayer, and VideoJS. JW Player was mostly accessible, but not perfect. Flowplayer was terrible but you could force it if you really wanted. VideoJS kicked butt and really didn't require much work. Only thing I did for it was to make sure the controls never faded and changed what what was available from default.
  221. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 26 14:16
    I did hear good things about Oz, but hadn't seen it by the time I was hardcore in to my project
  222. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 26 14:18
    but I needed to be able to support HLS for on-demand video streaming which Oz doesn't do so that was out the door too
  223. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 26 14:21
    Also, I couldn't find the keyboard shortcuts for Oz. JW, Flow, and VideoJS were basically the same though (and close to what Mozilla's default player does)
  224. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 26 14:23
  225. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 14:23
    [johnnykamikaze] interesting - been trying to find the best player for ally and performance - will have to play around with videoJS a bit more
  226. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 26 14:36
    @powrsurg would you be prepared to write Media player design pattern for the aria APG? You have way more expertise in it than others in the WG.
  227. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 26 14:38
    What is involved in that? I've never written a design pattern.
  228. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 26 14:40
    BTW, VideoJS just started to get audio description support. Before it did I was starting to add https://accessibility.oit.ncsu.edu/video/audiodescriptions/headingsmap-captions-audiodescription.html and liked it very well, but removed it because VideoJS started to get audio descriptions and I saw it was having issues with IE (which VideoJS used the Flash player for)
  229. powrsurg @powrsurg wonders why Gitter never sent his message to @johncaseysmith asking if he needed IE < 10
  230. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 26 14:42
    ... also I just realized I had emailed Sina Bahram about this and he had asked me to do a call with him and I never got back to him ... oops
  231. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 26 14:42
    Essentially http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/#mediaplayer needs filling in. The aria states and properties are probably empty for a video player as aria doesn't have video roles. But the keyboard interaction would be really handy.
  232. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 26 14:47
    So, just list what I found as common among the various players?
  233. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 26 14:49
    I guess I could. I don't have JAWS and I have seen that bugs listed that you need to include a role="region" on video players if you have multiple players on one page, else JAWS will combine the various controls.
  234. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 26 14:51
    yeah. Pretty much along with a brief description. Often that can be borrowed from another spec. :)
  235. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 26 14:51
    I'll see what I can put together and get back to you.
  236. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 26 14:52
    (that sounded like a blow off, it's not intended to be)
  237. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 26 14:52
    We don't tend to list things which we consider bugs. Do you consider use of role=region a jaws bug or do you consider it a desirable behavior.
  238. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 26 14:52
    No problem. We get that everyone is busy :)
  239. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 26 14:52
    If we weren't busy te APG would be complete but it is far from it.
  240. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 26 14:53
    Yeah, a11y isn't actually the main focus of my job as a dev. I just value it and want to make sure we do it right.
  241. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 26 14:55
    I think I tend to go overboard with landmark roles, but truthfully a video should be its own thing to me. Saying it's a region seems over the top. Use, media players are important but we don't necessarily need everyone easily accessible on the page.
  242. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 26 14:57
    region is only a landmark if it has an accessible name.... does JAWS do its magic even if the region has no label or does it require it to be a landmark
  243. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 26 15:00
    That I'm not sure. The bug list I saw said it needed a region and a label. I don't know if both were required to fix it, or if they were just doing what they felt was right.
  244. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 26 15:00
    videojs/video.js#3201 the bug in question
  245. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 26 15:19
    Might be a while until we can do that to humans, though
  246. Jon Metz
    @metzessible
    Apr 26 15:44

    So, just list what I found as common among the various players?

    @powrsurg, In my opinion, I'd recommend against simply compiling what others have done for other players. Defining a proper UI pattern requires a bit of research to acknowledge what is the highest common expectation users have when they perform an action. I agree that the complete set of functionality should be mapped at the most complete technical level, but a default pattern expected on all players would require a bit of forethought and consideration.

  247. Jason Day
    @jasonday
    Apr 26 15:45
    paypal's video player is interesting as well: http://paypal.github.io/accessible-html5-video-player/
  248. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 26 16:00
    PayPal's Video Player seems to have no custom keyboard controls.
  249. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 16:02
    [deborah_kaplan] I wrote up a list based on what YT does, as the most common -- which is not what YT's documentation says, btw! -- and looked into where that conflicted with common kb actions
  250. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 16:03
    [deborah_kaplan] I was thinking about sending in some kaltura patches for their player in my copious free time, is why
  251. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 16:03
    [deborah_kaplan] I can send the doc I made if anyone wants it.
  252. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 26 16:04
    I just looked up Firefox's custom keyboard keys. Chrome doesn't seem to have any custom keyboard commands
  253. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 26 16:04
    IE apparently does, but I haven't found documentation yet
  254. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 16:06
    [deborah_kaplan] We need to solve the "everyone implements whatever kb actions they want in JS, no way to expose to the end user, no way to address collisions" problem so bad. :(
  255. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 16:06
    [deborah_kaplan] Chaals's proposal is a start
  256. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 26 16:10
    well this is interesting. Ctrl + left/right arrow crashes IE
  257. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 26 16:10
    when the video has focus
  258. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 26 16:12
    and the end key
  259. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 17:21
    [johnbhartley] media question specifically related to WCAG 1.2.5. Does the audio description have to be an available audio track or can it just be a separate transcript giving the details that an audio description generally would
  260. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 26 17:58
  261. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 18:03
    [scottohara] this just makes me sad
  262. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 26 18:14
    @johnbhartley from what I've seen others recommend you can include a transcript separately, but a timed audio track is preferable
  263. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 18:17
    [johnbhartley] @powrsurg: any suggestions on video players that support multiple tracks like that? Or is it better to just have a link to the audio description version of the video.
  264. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 26 18:19
    VideoJS does support multiple tracks (though not at the same time). The user must switch between them
  265. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 18:20
    [jeankaplansky] @michiel: The lack of understanding for the cascade in CSS makes me sad. The cascade can be a very beautiful powerful tool when understood and approached with a plan.
  266. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 26 18:20
    One thing that is odd is that by default Chrome and Safari (which they can use native tracks for) will have the track on by default. It probably would for Android as well but I hadn't tested that. Firefox and Edge it does not have them on by default since neither has the native track support they need yet (though maybe Edge would with the preview branch, I am not sure). IE falls back to Flash and does not have tracks on by default
  267. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 26 18:21
    @jeankaplansky honestly, I feel that there are way too many younger devs that don't pay attention to spec gaining too much influence and promoting bad practice without knowing it
  268. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 18:25
    [jeankaplansky] @powrsurg I don't want to be ageist, but I have noticed that many younger devs are missing a big part of stylesheet design and development fundamentals in their education. They never learned the actual craft of typography. Which means they don't apply best practices of the craft to stuff that they're doing. Add GUI's into it and you've got a recipe for, well... where we are now. I don't see the CSS WG dumping the cascade, though. Too many people on the WG do know how to use it. So... basically, it means that there was a breakdown in education somewhere.
  269. powrsurg @powrsurg yells at cloud
  270. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 26 18:29
    I feel like the problem comes from the fact that you can put up a site for like $5 on some simple hosting company, or have a simple mom and pop business will get their teenage niece to put something together for them in an afternoon that gets people into thinking this stuff is easy, rather than acknowledging there really is a craft to it and it takes years of practice to get something good
  271. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 26 18:30
    I firmly believe that say, a responsive website is not necessarily the best thing for most businesses and is only good for those places that are paying $5 for hosting and if you're paying a real fee you should have a custom platform that actually does send mobile users a different site -- either m-dot or a fully different site with the same URL.
  272. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 18:34
    [johnbhartley] awesome, thanks @powrsurg
  273. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 26 18:38
    np
  274. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 18:38
    [jeankaplansky] Point taken. I've stood up at conferences and told people that RWD isn't just something you do. I did a panel conversation at SSP a couple of years ago where we had 2 beautiful case studies followed by me: "and this is what happens when RWD attacks... Examine if you will, this highly complex engineering calculation written in MathML, and rendered by MathJax on my iPhone.
  275. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 18:40
    [jeankaplansky] However, it's my experience as a speaker that you can develop a rep. as a naysayer if you're always going on about "but here's the negative side of this shiny new thing". People don't like that. They want to hear success stories in conference presentations.
  276. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 18:49
    [deborah_kaplan] this issue about education goes along with my theory that javascript developers were all raised by wolves.
  277. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 18:49
    [deborah_kaplan] Disclaimer: deborah_kaplan has developed in javascript
  278. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 26 18:53
    we have a recent grad here that only took 1 class in web dev at his college, a major IT university. He knew an absolutely nothing about what we've taught him. Great dev, but he really hadn't gotten any experience in college for this
  279. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 26 18:54
    neither did I actually, but I graduated in 2006 and my degree was in scientific computing ... not much cross over between fortran and web dev
  280. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 19:02
    [deborah_kaplan] my degree was in English lit, and the senior programmers in my house include the person who majored in Classics with a concentration in Latin poetry, and the person who majored in philosophy and then dropped out. :)
  281. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 19:02
    [deborah_kaplan] Though we all did tech in college, too.
  282. Jon Metz
    @metzessible
    Apr 26 19:35
    I went to art school and majored in drawing. Of course, I'm a shitty designer and totally not a programmer,
  283. Jon Metz
    @metzessible
    Apr 26 19:35
    But there you go.
  284. Jon Metz
    @metzessible
    Apr 26 19:40
    I think a lot of the resistance to learning programming best practices is not what you learn in school, but rather after school. Designers are taught that speed is the most critical quality to consider, and most of the shortcut frameworks, applications, and tools tend to focus on the prettiness of something rather than being correctly made.
  285. Jon Metz
    @metzessible
    Apr 26 19:44
    Understanding concepts like cascade are overshadowed by inheritance, importance, focus order, etc. After awhile it's easier to say screw it and just use a commonly used bad habit instead.
  286. Jon Metz
    @metzessible
    Apr 26 19:47
    The ios gitter leaves much to be desired.
  287. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 26 19:56
    talking of responsive web design have folks seen this? http://re-view.emmet.io/
  288. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 26 19:58
    Pretty awesome chrome extension which looks at the media queries and displays a view of each of them next to each other
  289. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 26 19:58
    Too bad there is no Safari extension.
  290. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 26 19:58
    people use safari extensions?
  291. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 26 19:58
    ;)
  292. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 26 19:59
    you could always create one. the code is on github
  293. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 26 19:59
    Yeah, I'm not busy at all :P
  294. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 26 20:00
    well - use chrome then :)
  295. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 26 20:39
    no, Firefox
  296. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 26 20:51
    I'd love to use Firefox if their UI worked better with OS X.
  297. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 26 20:51
    They need some UI designers…
  298. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 26 20:59
    well as they copy Chrome more they'll eventually work better on OS X
  299. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 26 21:39
    so I just had an interesting question occur to me.
  300. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 26 21:39
    one of the "rules" for landmarks is that once you start using them everything on the page should be in a landmark
  301. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 26 21:40
    I was looking at creating a window splitter and started on my page and created a <nav> for a left navigation area, and a <main> for the main content.
  302. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 26 21:40
    but where does the actual window splitter go?
  303. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 26 21:41
    it doesn't logically fit in either of these sections... it really lives outside them
  304. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 21:50
    [hhillen] true
  305. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 26 21:51
    so is this the exception that proves the rule?
  306. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 23:27
    [hhillen] I think so, you can think of that divider as part of the browser viewport.
  307. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 26 23:28
    [hhillen] Just like the browser window itself is not contained in a landmark
  308. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 26 23:32
    I guess the other argument is that a window splitter is not "content" so the fact it is not in a landmark isn't relevant
  309. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 26 23:33
    although I guess it could make it hard to restore the Nav region once it is hidden through the splitter
  310. Jonathan Neal
    @jonathantneal
    Apr 26 23:51
    Howdy!