Archive index

A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 27th of April 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. mikaelR
    @cr2a-graphique
    Apr 27 07:37
    hi there !
  2. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 07:37
    Morning! Happy Dutch King's Day!
  3. mikaelR
    @cr2a-graphique
    Apr 27 08:35
    Happy Dutch King's Day! too ^^
  4. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Apr 27 09:28
    morning slackers! @jkva great work on getting sponsorship
  5. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 09:29
    @stevefaulkner Morning and thank you! It's looking good so far
  6. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Apr 27 09:33
    looking forward to meeting you in person
  7. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 09:33
    Likewise :)
  8. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 09:41
    Morning slackers!
  9. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 09:45
    o/ Morning Michiel
  10. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 09:45
    Happy King's Day Michiel, long live the republic
  11. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 09:49
    Morning Job
  12. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 09:50
    Hoezee, hoezee, hoezee!
  13. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 10:15
    [hhillen] boooo, Queensday forever!
  14. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Apr 27 10:38
    hello hansome!
  15. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 10:45
    [gerbenvandijk] Hi guys! Looking forward to learning more about a11y here, atm it's too much of a manual thing and mainly looking to integrate it into my workflow better
  16. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Apr 27 10:46
    hi @gerbenvandijk :smile:
  17. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 10:47
    [gerbenvandijk] so this bot thing has to do with gitter / slack combo right?
  18. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 10:47
    Right.
  19. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Apr 27 11:14
    @gerbenvandijk for automation of a11y testing (for code issues that can be picked up by auto testers) have a look at tenon http://tenon.io/ by @karlgroves
  20. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 11:15
    Tenon is pretty sweet.
  21. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Apr 27 11:15
    karl is sour
  22. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 11:15
    W3C Nu validator can also pick out some stuff that might cause a11y issues.
  23. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 11:15
    Or NU Checker I should say.
  24. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 11:16
    Also see the bookmarklets under “Extra” on this page: http://validator.w3.org/nu/about.html
  25. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Apr 27 11:16
    yeah there are some plugins also https://validator.w3.org/nu/about.html
  26. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Apr 27 11:16
    snap
  27. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 11:16
    ^^
  28. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 27 13:55
    I wish someone made a browser extension for running it locally
  29. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 27 13:57
    So I was doing research on what keyboard commands work in straight up HTML video tags without any JS added to it. IE seems to have a lot of keys that bring up the commands but I don't see them doing anything.
  30. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Apr 27 13:58
    I wish someone made a browser extension for running it locally
  31. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Apr 27 13:59
    @powrsurg make it so
  32. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 27 14:00
    My Firefox extension is already being deprecated because it needed XUL controls, and because Mozilla's checker tool was stupid about validating JS that was included (it was an extension that could detect what JS framework was on a page and would load that version from the disk, rather than the network).
  33. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Apr 27 14:04
    :-(
  34. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 14:18
    You can run the validator locally right?
  35. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Apr 27 14:28
    you can set up a local instance, you can also send local DOM to it via the bookmarklet
  36. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 14:34
    [jitendra] i have left the job, was not happy building crap.
  37. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 14:36
    !
  38. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 14:42
    [una] Hi y'all!
  39. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 14:44
    [jitendra] Welcome
  40. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 14:44
    [jitendra] Wow @una is here
  41. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 14:46
    Hi Una
  42. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 14:46
    Congrats Juitendra
  43. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 14:47
    Una, did you get my invite to http://www.roledrinks.nl?
  44. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 14:48
    [una] Did I? Not sure
  45. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 14:48
    Well, I twotted, but not sure I mailed.
  46. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 14:48
    [una] Ooh cool! Thanks for the invite :)
  47. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 14:48
    I'm not going to bother looking that up, but you now have another invite :P
  48. Jonathan Neal
    @jonathantneal
    Apr 27 14:49
    Hey, Una! By any chance my internet comrade / sass director / toolsday Una?
  49. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 14:49
    [una] hehe yep! That one
  50. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 14:51
    [una] I found the email! Sorry I’ve been super swamped in my inbox lately
  51. Jonathan Neal
    @jonathantneal
    Apr 27 14:51
    I do hope that show continues in some capacity. How’s DO treating you?
  52. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 14:52
    [una] it’s been really great!
  53. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 14:52
    [una] and yes, Toolsday is going to continue next week
  54. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 14:52
    Una: no problem. I know the feeling.
  55. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 14:53
    alt=List of mailboxes show most of them have unread e-mails. https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/DO9KLVMe/Screen%20Shot%202016-04-27%20at%2016.52.38.png
  56. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 14:54
    [una] lol that’s exactly what my inbox looks like too
  57. Jonathan Neal
    @jonathantneal
    Apr 27 14:57
    When I see people using folders and being all organized, it reminds me that, in some ways, I am a million years behind the times.
  58. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 14:57
    It's just rules that automagically move messages there.
  59. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 27 14:57
    heh - remind me not to show you my gmail inbox (currently 23,471 unread messages)
  60. Jonathan Neal
    @jonathantneal
    Apr 27 14:58
    And I feel a little better now. :)
  61. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 27 15:00
    although gmail labels and great search kind of encourage this kind of behavior
  62. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 15:52
    Grrr, have to defend why icons need labels
  63. jkva @jkva sighs
  64. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 15:52
    Can't find a specific WCAG SC on it, any hints? Text Alternatives seems closest
  65. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 27 15:57
    yeah 1.1.1
  66. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 16:01
    Thanks
  67. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 16:03
    I hate having to defend these basic accessibility things
  68. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:08
    1.1.1 isn't going to convince "UX" people that real humans need labels, becuase you can fulfill 1.1.1 with alts, hidden texts, etc
  69. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:08
    [jitendra] Which web based Email is most accessible?
  70. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:08
    [jitendra] Gmail? Yahoo? Outlook?
  71. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 27 16:08
    as far as I know there is no WCAG requirement that there be a visible label for an icon
  72. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 27 16:09
    I thought it only truly mattered if there was no text next to the icon
  73. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:09
    @jitendra not sure but if you tweet it, I can retweet and CC some blinks. Also @deborah_kaplan and eric wright and lucy greco are good to ask as they use speech-to-text (but not sure they all use web mail)
  74. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 27 16:09
    this is something that is being looked at in the cognitive task force and i'm sure will end up in wcag.next (whatever that is) but there is nothing for now
  75. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:09
    I fight so hard for visible text next to labels
  76. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:09
    zomg
  77. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:09
    it's so hard
  78. MichielBijl @MichielBijl looks sadistica11y on how King's Day visitors run in the rain >:)
  79. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:10
    nobody believes how small human short-term memory is
  80. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:10
    [deborah_kaplan] sorry, what's the question?
  81. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:10
    let alone the short term memory of people like me
  82. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 16:10
    These labels have no text at all
  83. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:10
    [deborah_kaplan] oh, visible labels?
  84. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 16:10
    Sorry
  85. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 16:10
    these icons
  86. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:10
    [deborah_kaplan] As a dictation user the absence of visible labels drives me completely up the wall
  87. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:10
    Jitendra wants to know the "most accessible webmail client" but don't want to just ask blinks...
  88. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 16:10
    So it's just a row of icons (which are actually links!)
  89. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:10
    @deborah_kaplan
  90. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 16:10
    And we have to magically know what they do
  91. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 16:11
    And a text-justification icon. I mean hamburger.
  92. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:11
    But re labels, I am and will continue to throw hissy fits at the UX people who keep iconising everything... see, you can fulfill 1.1.1 with <img src="envelope.png" alt="mail"/> but it does not fulfill a sighted stupid like me's need for WTF IS THAT BOX WITH CRISSCROSSES MEAN?? etc.
  93. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 27 16:12
    so long as they have alt text it meets wcag as far as I'm aware. However, usability is another story.
  94. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:12
    I always see hamburgers as Justified Text icon
  95. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 16:12
    "But android and ios does it too"
  96. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 16:12
    I mean how do I argue that
  97. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:12
    [deborah_kaplan] nod nod. I'm not a webmail user primarily because I've had a lot of trouble with the clients. I have to use Gmail for work and I access it through alpine except when I can't avoid using the actual web client, because I end up having a lot of problems with it. I haven't used Outlook for a few years,
  98. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 16:12
    @jkva, say that it isn't true.
  99. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:12
    [deborah_kaplan] But when I last used it, I could only use the "accessible" interface, which didn't have all the features.
  100. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:12
    Google does tons of crappy shit and "but it's google" so the name means little... and it's possible iOS has a setting to turn on names of icons in Accessibility settings but I have no iThing so dunno
  101. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:13
    @jitendra did you get all that?
  102. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:13
    [deborah_kaplan] Usability tests show users recognize maybe 5 or 10 generic icons, at BEST. Magnifying glass, shopping cart, house, etc.
  103. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 16:13
    Apps have icons, but the top-nav, battery, bluetooth, alarm, wi-fi strength, those are never labeled
  104. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:13
    I know a lot of blinks who use Gmail ok but i have so much trouble with it, it's so flat, and would pipe it to mutt except I can't always access my mutt via the web.
  105. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 16:14
    Heck I've wondered before "what is this icon for"
  106. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:14
    [deborah_kaplan] And I just want to dictate the name of the control! I can't do that if I don't know it.
  107. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:14
    I've googled/duckduckgo'd icons before, hoping to discover what they mean. On web pages I inspect them, hoping there's a class name to give me a lcue
  108. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:14
    s/lcue/clue
  109. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 16:14
    So I just said 'Icons must have labels' 'No they must not'
  110. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 16:14
    sigh
  111. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:14
    [jitendra] @deborah_kaplan: do you mean native email apps are better in accessibility?
  112. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 27 16:14
    One time we had a customer log a P1 bug against a product when a new icon got added to the toolbar. In order to do a function their users pressed "the 5th button" and it now wasn't the fifth button.
  113. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 16:14
    oh no
  114. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:15
    [deborah_kaplan] Re icons: I used to painstakingly get the pointer over to do a hover to learn if there was a name, but now I'm just lazy and tend to inspect the element to learn it. But most people aren't developers and couldn't do that. @jkva
  115. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:15
    @jitendra I think a lot of people with disabilities might say so (that native ones are better) but that would depend on what that client were running on. Orca users for example can use Gmail with Orca but many seem to prefer Thunderbird on their own machines if possible.
  116. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:15
    [deborah_kaplan] @jitendra: For me, the native applications are much better in accessibility. I am sighted and voice/keyboard.
  117. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 27 16:16
    @deborahgu and the title may not be the same as the accessible name anyway (although I think dragon allows basically any name associated with an image)
  118. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:16
    @deborah_kaplan yeah a developer (back end) told me recently that he would hover over them and wait to see if he'd find out what it did, and if nothing appeared, he wouldn't click it
  119. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:16
    [jitendra] Is that the reason Web email apps don
  120. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:16
    [deborah_kaplan] But you lose some functionality, of course @jitendra
  121. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:16
    [jitendra] don’t care much about a11y
  122. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:16
    [deborah_kaplan] I think many web email apps care -- gmail cares -- but it's hard!
  123. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:17
    @jitendra some do, or for example Gmail seems to do a lot of work patching up its very very crappy HTML with aria... so someone cares but the whole thing is definitely not built with a11y in mind.
  124. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:17
    [deborah_kaplan] And I think it is a really bad deal for people with accessibility needs the new way of doing things seems to just take your web application and bundle it with a chromium app and call it a desktop app.
  125. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:17
    [deborah_kaplan] cough cough slack cough cough
  126. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:18
    Hey @jitendra are you taking a break from jobs to go learn stuff, or are you looking for a new job now?
  127. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:18
    [deborah_kaplan] for all of aria's power, and html5 and javascript and all, an operating system is a really mature platform for a full featured app. The web just *isn't*.
  128. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:19
    yup yup
  129. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:19
    [deborah_kaplan] And for something as functionally rich an email client or a chat client, you're just going to get better usability and better accessibility natively.
  130. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:19
    <span role="link" id="somereallyfreakinglongidwithlotsofnumbers">Undo</span> <-- Gmail style
  131. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:19
    [deborah_kaplan] (Honestly, I don't see why tech people like Gmail from a pure usability standard; It's way less fully featured than the old email clients.)
  132. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:20
    I don't think I use much of Gmail, maybe I have to go use fancy features to make it work for me as well as mutt already does with its handful of commands...
  133. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:20
    [jitendra] @StommePoes I’m open for sensible job too
  134. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 16:21
    Designer is angry at me now
  135. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 16:21
    :P
  136. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:21
    @jitendra if your english was better I'd tell you to go to some of the "accessibility" companies like SimplyAccessible or TPG (because I don't know if there's something similar closer to your home)
  137. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:21
    Jitendra has been into and working with accessibility and usability for years and years as a front-ender, and is eager to run out and try some new tool just to see if it's useful or a piece of crap.
  138. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:22
    [deborah_kaplan] @jkva we need to find a way to bring more designers into the Borg A11y Collective
  139. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 16:22
    Yeah tell me about it
  140. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:22
    deborah that's actually kinda what this new/beginning role=drinks in the netherlands wants to do
  141. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:22
    [deborah_kaplan] oh yay
  142. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:22
    but we're not sure if we can start such a thing... meetups really take a lot of time and energy
  143. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:23
    So the guys who started domcode.org are going to mail with some tips, as they've been there and done that, but man they put in a lot of hours for it.
  144. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:23
    [jitendra] Thanks @StommePoes.
  145. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:23
    There's crap-tons of meetups in the Netherlands that are tech-related, and also design meetups, but so far nothing really that's focussed on accessibility.
  146. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:25
    @jitendra if there are some other a11y-minded people locally where you are, I suppose another option would be to start a company.
  147. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:25
    For example I know a lot of US companies hire companies in India to build parts of applications, and a lot of those companies have clients who must have accessible software (demanded by law). I know my own company has some vendors in India and Sri Lanka and those vendors do not know how to build anything accessibly.
  148. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:26
    [jitendra] Hmm. Interesting.
  149. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:26
    [deborah_kaplan] We did work with one vendor in India who knew a ton about accessibility. But I think it is a growing field there, very young.
  150. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:26
    So they build something once, then someone from that team sends it over to me (or another a11y person but I think we lost all the other ones who check stuff), then I list all the problems it has, send it back, then someone pays that team to rewrite everything. Stupid.
  151. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:26
    Deborah are you allowed to share the name?
  152. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:27
    Most of the Indians I know who are big into accessibility are living in the US or the UK... I only know maybe 2 or 3 who are in India...
  153. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:27
    [jitendra] One a11y focused company in India I know is Deque but it’s not an Indian company.
  154. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:27
    [jitendra] They are located in Different city
  155. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:28
    from tjhe orca mailing list, Krishnakant Mane and Pranav Lal.
  156. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:29
    @jitendra that's one of those big a11y companies, though... I wonder if it's possible to work remotely for the Indian division.
  157. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:30
    [jitendra] I know Some A11y people india. I meet some of them once in a year when TED Drake come to India and organize an a11y dinner meetup
  158. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:32
    oh cool
  159. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:32
    [deborah_kaplan] I will ask, StommePoes, I need to check
  160. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 16:32
    Indian food a11y dinner meetup?!
  161. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:32
    zomg om nom nom nom
  162. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:32
    [jitendra] Yes
  163. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:32
    [deborah_kaplan] om nom!
  164. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 16:33
    mmmm WCAG Biryani
  165. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:33
    Ted Drake knows how to live
  166. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 16:33
    "It's layers!"
  167. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:33
    imagine having something like CSUN somewhere in India. That would be so cool
  168. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:34
    why am I spelling visa Dutch?
  169. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:34
    it's probably easier for people to get Visa's to get into India than to get visa's to get into the US.
  170. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:34
    [jitendra] I currently live in a Big city Bangalore, which is known as a silicon valley of India. It’s good but crowded, costly and becoming polluted. And it’s quite far from my hometown 2200 KM.
  171. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:34
    Yeah didn't you come from Gudjarat?
  172. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:34
    a town in there
  173. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:35
    I wonder if Pearson would hire an accessiblity person in India... there's certainly a lot of Indian-in-India employees there (mostly developers)
  174. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:35
    There are lots of QA people there... you'd think they'd do some a11y ones too.
  175. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:35
    [jitendra] Yes I moved to Bangalore (Karnataka) in June 2011 from Vadodara (Gujarat)
  176. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:36
    [jitendra] but my home state is Rajasthan
  177. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:36
    Would you move back home if you could work from home? (do you have the internet speed at home to move home and work from there?)
  178. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:36
    oh... I recall you said something like, your hometown was at the beginning of a river
  179. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:36
    oh yeah you're bikaner
  180. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:36
    Or, your brother made that film about bikaners
  181. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:37
    [jitendra] I would move to Jaipur which is best city and capital of my state and have 7 hrs. far from my hometown
  182. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:37
    Huh, if you could get a remote job, you could do that. Would Janma be happier leaving Bangalore?
  183. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:37
    happier to leave it?
  184. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:38
    [jitendra] Jaipur has everything. What I need in a city is Good internet, Low pollution, and Apple service center.
  185. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:38
    haha :)
  186. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:39
    That would make a good tweet :P
  187. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:40
    [jitendra] Jamna would love to move closer to Hometown
  188. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:41
    [jitendra] Some photos of my hometown https://www.flickr.com/search/?text=bikaner
  189. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:43
    I'm not sure how Flickr works... but nothing shows by default.
  190. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:43
    but I did a google image search https://www.google.nl/search?tbm=isch&q=bikaner&tbs=imgo:1&gws_rd=cr&ei=OuwgV8HhCMPQgAae4KiwCg
  191. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:44
    [jitendra] I’m open to move to any other country too, now.
  192. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:46
    Still, some place that has decent food and weather :)
  193. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 16:53
    Huh, http://www.nomensa.com/ uses a hamburger menu
  194. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 16:53
    Which is a button with text-indented label
  195. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:53
    [jitendra] Yes Veg food, I don’t eat Non-veg and eggs
  196. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 16:54
    Jitendra, US needs a11y workers, but Netherlands might be good too.
  197. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 16:55
    He wanted good food and good weather MichielBijk
  198. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 16:55
    *Bijl
  199. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 16:55
    We have neither
  200. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:55
    [jitendra] I love bicycle cities though
  201. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 16:56
    Thailand?
  202. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 16:56
    France in that case.
  203. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 16:56
    Just not so much with the cycles in most cities.
  204. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:57
    Denmark has the bicycles but also the terrible weather and food...
  205. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:57
    Jitendra's been to Amsterdam... I remember the weather was terrible but he did find some decent food.
  206. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:58
    [jitendra] I don’t eat outside home so if vegetables are available to buy, food is no problem
  207. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:58
    True, you can do that if you live here... and you would be able to get all the ingredients you need from smaller shops (tokos) if the big ones don't have them.
  208. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 16:59
    Hmm
  209. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:59
    @jitendra do you cook, or Janma, or both?
  210. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 16:59
    Maybe a better approach, is to just take their design, and make it accessible. "You added labels" "Yeah you forgot them in the design"
  211. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 16:59
    I used to just hide accessibility in
  212. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:59
    [jitendra] Jamna only. I can make tea and noodles only
  213. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 17:00
    but then that of course misses all the cog and visual needs
  214. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:00
    https://www.nngroup.com/articles/icon-usability/ that oughta shut them up
  215. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 17:00
    Hahaha
  216. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:00
    But then, which designer knows who Jakob Nielsen is
  217. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:00
    But Norman they know
  218. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:00
    [jitendra] I know Jakob Nielsen. NNgroup has some best UX resource
  219. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:01
    Yeah /we/ know that, I don't think my designer does
  220. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:01
    She might know who Don Norman is
  221. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:01
    [jitendra] But I see Most of the visual designer I know they don’t follow any of their advice
  222. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 17:01
    @jkva http://uxmyths.com/post/715009009/myth-icons-enhance-usability
  223. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:01
    Yeah 's how I got there
  224. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:02
    I have such an urge to just say "fuck it, no labels it is"
  225. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:02
    But I shouldn't
  226. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:02
    [jitendra] thats why Gmail provide an option to change icon to text labels
  227. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:02
    Yeah I proposed that
  228. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:02
    But no dice
  229. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:02
    And then how would you get to that option if they are icons by default :-/
  230. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 17:03
    Yeah it's hard to take a visual designer who's done all the school and projects where everything non-usability/accessibility has been pushed on them...and turn them around. Very hard. Esp since a good visual designer can really make a site work well when paired with accessible design and code. Then you don't get the "accessible sites are ugly" feedback :)
  231. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:03
    Yeah
  232. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 17:03
    Wait that's another good story: Gmail offers teh option because people needed it
  233. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:04
    [jitendra] Designing has become ego game rather than problem solving
  234. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 17:04
    So has writing code, though.
  235. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 17:04
    For some.
  236. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 17:04
    It's not only designers...
  237. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 17:05
    https://theamericangenius.com/tech-news/gmail-offers-setting-to-revert-to-text-buttons-over-icons/
  238. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:05
    [jitendra] Designer want to have catchy pictures of website to place on their portfolio website’s slider
  239. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:06
    [jitendra] Designers I like are engineers.
  240. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:07
    And you think they've all read Don Norman right
  241. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:07
    So they know usability
  242. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:09
    [jitendra] I wonder the companies which make money by finding and fixing other people’s code (because devs didn’t care about a11) how do they make sure that same dev teams do not repeat mistakes
  243. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:09
    I don't give a fuck how beautiful a site is. If it confuses me, I'm gonna go to another. Form follows function. Aesthetics should be complementary, not a deciding factor.
  244. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:09
    Raised it to the team lead
  245. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:09
    Let's see where that goes
  246. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 17:12
    Jitendra it's definitely something the a11y team who fixes code needs to do (change the original team) because otherwise new changes will add a11y problems
  247. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 17:12
    usually you want to make the whole process of writing code, adding features or fixing bugs have a11y as part of the process
  248. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 17:12
    @Jitendra, check the same page after it's been fixed.
  249. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 17:12
    as well as in the QA at the end.
  250. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 17:13
    And, note done all locations where an error occurs.
  251. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:14
    [jitendra] @michiel: I’m talking about same page or same website
  252. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:16
    [jitendra] I’m saying if a11y consultancy have found and fixed problem in the project. What do they do to make possible that next time if they get a new project from same company to fix a11y issue, should not have same mistakes in the code
  253. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:17
    [jitendra] Ofcourse if companies dev will start caring a11y, the a11y consultancy might loose the business
  254. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 17:17
    yeah they need to have 1. accessibility as part of the process, starting with where UX does mockups and stuff and 2. someone who knows accessibility and code to work with and teach the other devs.
  255. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 17:17
    @jitendra actually, that should be the dream of every a11y consultancy :)
  256. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 17:17
    lose business
  257. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:17
    [jitendra] :)
  258. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 17:18
    @jitendra, that is true, but same mistakes will just be noted down again :)
  259. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 17:19
    Simply Accessible is looking for people btw.
  260. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:21
    [jitendra] I need to learn Screen reader testing, I think that is necessary for any a11y job.
  261. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:21
    [jitendra] Though I think lots of other important things needs to be done before that
  262. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 27 17:22
    the hard thing about screen reader testing for me is that I need to slow the speed down (I know there are settings for it), and the voice gets to me. For some reason NVDA keeps resetting the voice back to default for me.
  263. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:23
    [jitendra] @michiel: Yes I’m thinking to apply there. Need to make a new resume to present my self as a person who can improve a11y.
  264. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 17:23
    Most important part of a11y job is knowing how to spot mistakes. Be that a SR, Dev tools, source code, something like Tena, or whatever.
  265. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 17:23
    Karl has put a lot of work into Tena
  266. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:24
    [jitendra] you mean Tenon
  267. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 17:24
    Yes
  268. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 17:24
    But he has probably done that with Tena too.
  269. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:25
    [jitendra] In most of the websites i see there are 2 big problem 1) Low contrast text 2) Non Semantic HTML
  270. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:25
    =D
  271. Jonathan Neal
    @jonathantneal
    Apr 27 17:25
    Neat, TIL http://tenon.io/
  272. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:26
    [jitendra] Though A11y improvement efforts is mainly focused at making website accessible for screen reader users
  273. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 17:26
    Not to be confused with http://www.tena.co.uk
  274. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:29
    [jitendra] Do A11y tester get frustrated by seeing same problems being repeated by others?
  275. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:29
    [jitendra] or they enjoy fixing things
  276. Jonathan Neal
    @jonathantneal
    Apr 27 17:29
    Though, I have the magic screen resolution that almost makes it look like they are trusted by “HAKVAKU” (as opposed to “HARVARD”) http://i.imgur.com/9nXvp9v.png
  277. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 17:30
    Hmm, Karl Groves?
  278. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 17:31
    The "bad HTML" is one I see a lot too... nowadays, it's "bad HTML and filled with ARIA roles without the Javascript to match those ARIA roles"
  279. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:34
    [jitendra] There is new role popular these days called “Full stack developer"
  280. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:34
    You rang? ;)
  281. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:35
    [jitendra] And I have hardly seen full stack developer writing good html
  282. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:35
    [jitendra] Full stack developer = Now you are allowed to mess up front-end code too
  283. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:36
    Why do you think I'm here in this channel Jitendra ;)
  284. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:37
    [jitendra] I didn’t get you
  285. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:38
    I wasn't serious :)
  286. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:38
    [jitendra] Ok but i didn’t get the context :)
  287. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 17:39
    Job is a Fail Stack Developer :)
  288. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:39
    Oh, I mean I'm here so I learn how to not mess up HTML ;)
  289. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:39
    Ha!
  290. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:39
    Nice one Michiel
  291. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:39
    Fully Stuck Developer?
  292. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:39
    [jitendra] ha ha nice title "Fully Stuck Developer?"
  293. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:39
    I just throw aria-attributes on everything and see what sticks
  294. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 17:40
    ARIA ALL THE THINGS
  295. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:40
    LABEL ALL THE THINGS
  296. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:40
    [una] do y’all do any automation for a11y checks? such as color contrast checking?
  297. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 17:40
    WAIT NO THAT ANGERS THE STEVE
  298. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:40
    YOU'VE AWOKEN THE STEVE
  299. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 17:40
    https://twitter.com/MichielBijl/status/724584346154328064
  300. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 17:40
    Tenon for some automation but i don't believe it does contrast yet... possible deque's aXe does though.
  301. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:40
    una: We use Wave. I've tried to use TPG's tool, but not workie on OSX Yosemite
  302. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 17:41
    Which tool Job?
  303. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 17:41
    aViewer?
  304. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:41
    https://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/contrastanalyser/
  305. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    Apr 27 17:41
    @una Yes, I would suggest Accessibility Dev Tools; the contrast recommendations are great.
  306. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:41
    Oh wait, automation, no then we don't
  307. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:41
    Not yet
  308. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    Apr 27 17:42
    @MichielBijl wouldn't know about TPG stuff; he doesn't even work there
  309. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 17:42
    aviewer is Windows only
  310. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:42
    Hey @garcialo! Good to see you
  311. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    Apr 27 17:42
    Howdy =)
  312. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 17:42
    It seems Loesje is also awake
  313. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:42
    Which cat is that?
  314. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 17:42
    jkva, CCA works fine for me.
  315. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:42
    You have like 5 right
  316. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:42
    [jitendra] In browser the best a11y color checking tool is dev tools
  317. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 17:42
    I meant Luis, Loui, Loes, Loujustmakeupyourdamnmind
  318. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    Apr 27 17:43
    I have no preference
  319. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:43
    Are you on El Capitan Michiel?
  320. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 17:43
    Yeap, you can file bugs here though: https://github.com/ThePacielloGroup/CCA-OSX
  321. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 17:43
    Does it start at all?
  322. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 17:43
    Are you on the latest version?
  323. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    Apr 27 17:43
    Or just PM all the bugs to @stevefaulkner
  324. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    Apr 27 17:43
    That's what I do
  325. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:44
    's why I said I was on Yosemite (it says it's not for that)
  326. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 17:45
    Ah, you can download 10.10 version :)
  327. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:45
    [jitendra] pls share accessible web solutions example with me
  328. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 17:45
    https://github.com/ThePacielloGroup/CCA-OSX/releases/tag/2.0-beta1
  329. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:45
    Yea was looking for an older one, tx
  330. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:46
    [jitendra] I want to add here http://jitendra.io/a11ytools/
  331. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:46
    Man, I wouldn't mind working with or for NNgroup either. Their stuff is fab
  332. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 17:55
    Baymard does awesome usability work
  333. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:55
    [jitendra] This is a hard problem to crack
    http://marcysutton.com/v4/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/how_i_audit_headings.png
  334. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:55
    [jitendra] Specially when Designer and front-end developer is not the same person
  335. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:56
    [marcysutton] CSS classes made that possible!
  336. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:56
    [marcysutton] And a live styleguide
  337. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:57
    [jitendra] This is the thing which I hardly see done in proper way in most of the website
  338. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 17:57
    heading structure?
  339. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 17:58
    I'm reading more about design so I can at least understand designers better and find common ground easier, but that's a lot of ground to cover
  340. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:58
    [marcysutton] I usually have classes for .h1-style, .h2-style, etc. so I can choose the appropriate heading level and style it however necessary
  341. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 17:58
    h1, .h1 { your style here }
  342. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:58
    [marcysutton] exacrtly
  343. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:59
    [marcysutton] ok back to work for me :)
  344. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:59
    [jitendra] That is styling part.
  345. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:59
    [jitendra] I’m taking about proper use of heading structure
  346. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:59
    [jitendra] forget CSS
  347. Jonathan Neal
    @jonathantneal
    Apr 27 17:59
    @jitendra, what tool are you using to produce that good looking outline?
  348. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 18:00
    [jitendra] It’s taken from here http://marcysutton.com/how-i-audit-a-website-for-accessibility/
  349. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 18:00
    Jonathan that is marcy's
  350. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 18:01
    jitendra: what Marcy means is, if people are using incorrect headings because they want smaller/larger headings, then having styles for them can let you use the correct headings, but the dfiffernt styles.
  351. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 18:01
    But, this only solves the problem if the problem is people using wrong heading levels because of the size/style.
  352. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 18:01
    Often I see people don't even use any headings and just make text big.
  353. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 18:02
    Or the SEO person tells them "Google gets confused if you use too many headings, so keep those styles but make them spans"
  354. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Apr 27 18:02
    gawd I hate that.
  355. StommePoes @StommePoes grumbles about SEO...
  356. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 18:02
    [jitendra] Yes even I use that. Bootstrap also has these classes for styling
  357. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 18:02
    [marcysutton] The tool I used for that is the Firefox Web Developer Toolbar. Information > View Document Outline
  358. Jonathan Neal
    @jonathantneal
    Apr 27 18:03
    Headings are just the worst. :)
  359. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 18:03
    [marcysutton] I wish browser makers would add that feature! Literally the only reason I still use that toolbar is to visualize headings
  360. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 18:03
    My first "frustrated about accessibility" tweet. Such a rite of passage!
  361. jkva @jkva gets more coffee
  362. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 18:04
    [jitendra] Few people know how to make good use of h1-h6
  363. Jonathan Neal
    @jonathantneal
    Apr 27 18:04
    I thought HTML5 sectioning elements would bring some degree of sanity to them, but it looks like I’m holding out for the <h> element at this point.
  364. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 18:07
    [jitendra] My first question related to a11y on stackoverflow LOL http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1052303/which-tools-is-best-to-make-accessible-site-open-source-or-commercial
  365. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 18:07
    [jitendra] Jun 27, 2009
  366. Jonathan Neal
    @jonathantneal
    Apr 27 18:08
    In the meantime, I yearn for more more blogs / tips regarding how to best markup and style headings when their structure and design are not synonymous; which is very often.
  367. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 18:09
    @jonathanneal, seeing as the heading algorithm will likely be removed from HTML spec, I wouldn't hold my breath.
  368. MichielBijl @MichielBijl waits for Steve to come in and proof him wrong.
  369. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 18:13
    [jitendra] http://www.adobe.com/accessibility/compliance/dreamweaver-cc-section-508-vpat.html
  370. Jonathan Neal
    @jonathantneal
    Apr 27 18:17
    @MichielBijl, it’s hard to come up with a class name that communicates “heading, visually level 1”. But perhaps there are many recommendations.
  371. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 18:18
    <h class="level-1"> seems to do it
  372. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 18:18
    Or <h class="h1">
  373. Jonathan Neal
    @jonathantneal
    Apr 27 18:19
    That’s not fun. There was a tweet about that somewhere. Wonder if I can find it.
  374. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 18:19
    Or, you know, depending on the level :)
  375. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 18:20
    section section h,
  376. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 18:20
    article section h { you're h3 styles here }
  377. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 18:21
    But, maybe an algorithm needs something in CSS to mathc it.
  378. Jonathan Neal
    @jonathantneal
    Apr 27 18:21
    ^ https://twitter.com/jon_neal/status/695284807123673088
  379. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 18:21
    h:level-3 { … }
  380. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 18:22
    h:level(3) {}
  381. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 18:22
    h:level(2) {}
  382. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 18:22
    etc
  383. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 18:23
    h++
  384. Jonathan Neal
    @jonathantneal
    Apr 27 18:24
    .h3 or .level-3 does ambiguate the design from the structure, but a different classname would make the distinction a lot clearer. Something that doesn’t immediately seem to imply a contradiction.
  385. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 18:25
    https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/lVBf6hTr/
  386. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 18:41
    backgrounds and ages. This icon of a Rolodex card was seen as a folder or business card with some odd notches. Knowing that this metaphor is not connecting with users, we can now redesign these icons, removing the notches and using a more familiar and direct metaphor such as a business card. Armed with actual user data, design of icons becomes more informed
  387. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 18:41
    For example, a common metaphor to represent “user information” has been the Rolodex card. This staple of American business that has been used for decades in the past was unfamiliar to current computer users in focus groups we held in our offices in Hyderabad, India, as well as focus groups held in California with participants of many different cultural
  388. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 18:41
    and is closer to the goal of being globally accepted and understood.
  389. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 18:41
    cool
  390. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 18:41
    Woops, sorry for the flooding
  391. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 27 18:41
    @marcysutton Paul Adam has a bookmarklet for headings - you may be able to replace your usage of Web Accessibility toolbar with that - http://pauljadam.com/bookmarklets/
  392. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 18:49
    [una] ooh thanks
  393. Jonathan Neal
    @jonathantneal
    Apr 27 18:56
    That’s cool!
  394. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 18:58
    [jitendra] Wow I didn’t know that Angular.JS is 1mb in size
  395. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 19:00
    1MB Oô
  396. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 19:00
    1Mb of user delight!
  397. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 19:00
    Glad I'm not on dialup anymore :-/
  398. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 19:00
    [jitendra] 1mb of min.js
  399. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 19:01
    [jitendra] I wonder what will be the size of non-minified version
  400. Jonathan Neal
    @jonathantneal
    Apr 27 19:01
    Wow, is that for real or is that some kind of custom build?
  401. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 19:02
    And is that with any modules installed?
  402. Jonathan Neal
    @jonathantneal
    Apr 27 19:02
    AngularJS 1.2.22: 39.5kb. https://www.google.com/search?q=angularjs+size
  403. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 19:03
    Likely modules then
  404. Jonathan Neal
    @jonathantneal
    Apr 27 19:10
    Ah, the “welcome to angular: an introductory video” module.
  405. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 19:12
    [marcysutton] Welcome @una! Didn’t notice you’d joined us!
  406. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 19:12
    [una] :wave: :)
  407. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 19:12
    [una] im wondering about automating a11y testing and if any of you have done so
  408. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 19:13
    [marcysutton] oh yes.
  409. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 19:13
    [marcysutton] Here’s an old talk I did on it, but it was before axe came out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XUmf_RPF8k
  410. Jonathan Neal
    @jonathantneal
    Apr 27 19:13
    @una you’ve seen http://pa11y.org/ ?
  411. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 19:14

    [sareh] Hi, is anyone here familiar with Talkback on Android? I used it for the first time today on my phone (HTC One). I’ve hit a major problem, though - I was using Talkback & I paused for a few minutes and the screen locked, but I can’t type in my password to unlock it!

    Basically, it doesn’t allow me to click ‘enter’ on the keyboard after tapping in my password. There is a very long lag between choosing each character (which takes a double-tap to work) and it appearing. Maybe that’s part of the reason?

    So, does anyone have advice for what I can try to do to unlock my phone with Talkback enabled? I’d be super grateful!

  412. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 19:14
    [una] i literally just sent my team a link to pa11y
  413. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 19:14
    [pstonier] hey there everyone
  414. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 19:14
    [una] yasss @marcysutton
  415. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 19:14
    [pstonier] just joined from your Fronteers talk @marcysutton. Still listening to it.
  416. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 19:15
    [marcysutton] Yay, awesome!
  417. Jonathan Neal
    @jonathantneal
    Apr 27 19:15
    And this gem http://marcysutton.github.io/a11y-automated-testing/#/ whoever this @marcysutton is sure knows their stuff.
  418. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 19:15
    [marcysutton] haha, those are the slides from the above video
  419. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 19:15
    [marcysutton] Things have evolved a bit since then, there are more tools available
  420. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 27 19:15
    I don't like the pa11y rule set. Way too many false positives
  421. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 19:17
    [pstonier] @sareh: I don’t have an experience there, but the folks in the @native-mobile channel might be able to help
  422. Jonathan Neal
    @jonathantneal
    Apr 27 19:17
    It might not be popular here, because it’s more on the hypothetical side, but I did have some success catching contrast issues early on using this: https://github.com/jonathantneal/postcss-wcag-contrast
  423. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 19:18
    [sareh] @pstonier: Thanks , Paul!
  424. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 19:19
    [marcysutton] @una I have some demos to finish using axe for unit and webdriver tests, but I got pulled into a client project. When I have those ready I’ll holler!
  425. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 19:21
    [pstonier] I’ve found http://wave.webaim.org/ to be super helpful
  426. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 19:21
    [pstonier] curious about pa11y. Looked at using tenon.io for the same idea, but really wanted to try to experiment with it before paying
  427. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 19:22
    [deborah_kaplan] pa11y wasn't accessible last time I looked, though I know they've been planning on addressing that
  428. Jonathan Neal
    @jonathantneal
    Apr 27 19:22
    pa11y itself wasn’t accessible?
  429. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 19:23
    [deborah_kaplan] yup. Screen reader or keyboard.
  430. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 19:23
    [deborah_kaplan] that looks like it might have been fixed, though?
  431. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 19:24
    [deborah_kaplan] looking at it now it looks better.
  432. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 19:24
    [pstonier] According to them, it’s in decent shape http://demo.pa11y.org/
  433. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 19:24
    [deborah_kaplan] well, I can't navigate it fully by keyboard on the demo.
  434. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 19:24
    [deborah_kaplan] mostly, but not fully.
  435. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 19:25
    [deborah_kaplan] eg. the "ignore rule" buttons don't seem to be reachable
  436. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 19:25
    [jitendra] Would people pay for accessible web mail software?
  437. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 19:26
    [deborah_kaplan] yes. Would enough? depends. Could you market it to places with compliance needs?
  438. Jonathan Neal
    @jonathantneal
    Apr 27 19:26
    Oh wow, I could not access the checkboxes. You are right.
  439. Jonathan Neal
    @jonathantneal
    Apr 27 19:26
    That’s wild.
  440. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 19:27
    [deborah_kaplan] I've been working with the Google accessibility tools; I'm constrained by needing to run behind a firewall, and automatically spawn a11y tests from jenkins. I like them okay; they're easily extensible, at any rate.
  441. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 19:27
    [jitendra] @deborah_kaplan: Email is mostly read on Mobile devices these days and on mobile I guess hardly anyone usages web app for email.
  442. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 19:28
    [deborah_kaplan] true, though workplaces have a requirement to support desktop, I'd assume.
  443. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 19:50
    [una] womp womp — has anybody here set up pa11y dashboard locally
  444. Jonathan Neal
    @jonathantneal
    Apr 27 19:53

    I asked Twitter about setting up a suggestion box for PostCSS plugins. Now we have one! https://github.com/postcss/postcss-plugin-suggestion-box

    Would there be any interest in creating something like this for accessible markup patterns or practical ARIA examples?

  445. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 20:01
    [pstonier] @una Have not yet, but considering doing it soon. What issues are you having?
  446. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 20:02
    [una] Everything seems to be set up but I get Error: Could not connect to pa11y-webservice
  447. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 20:04
    [pstonier] going to try now. will let you know if I run into the same thing
  448. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 20:05
    [una] ok cool :)
  449. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 20:13
    [marcysutton] @una here is a unit test demo https://github.com/marcysutton/axe-jasmine-unit
  450. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 20:13
    [marcysutton] I’m working on others…. since Jasmine is a bit tough to work with
  451. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 20:17
    [marcysutton] Speaking of pa11y though, the BBC uses it bbc/bbc-a11y#108
  452. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 27 20:21
    @marcysutton looks like they use the dashboard but I think they have their own checks underneath rather than HTML Codesniffer
  453. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 20:22
    [marcysutton] Ah yes, I believe that is because they have their own standards.
  454. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 27 20:23
    well and html codesniffer gives a ton of false positives on anything but the simplest sites
  455. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 27 20:23
    Would be nice to plug in aXe as the back-end into the p11y dashboard
  456. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 20:23
    [marcysutton] I am amazed at how much work goes into writing accessibility checks…pretty mind blowing actually
  457. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 20:24
    [marcysutton] There are some basics you can write for your specific app though. We did a lot of that on Angular Material.
  458. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 27 20:24
    yeah - getting something useful without false positives is really hard
  459. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 27 20:24
    i find the same - i get something that works well for one tech stack but then another comes along and some of those tests break
  460. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 27 20:24
    and we have a million tech stacks
  461. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 20:25
    [marcysutton] To elaborate…you can write unit tests for your own components to ensure they are operable from the keyboard. An API like WAVE or aXe just provides you with a larger list of things without having to write all those checks yourself.
  462. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 20:43
    What about this for our role=drinks a11y meetup group
  463. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 20:43
    https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/G8JGIKIH/role-drinks.png
  464. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 20:44
    alt=buzzed apple accessibility person holding a beer and a cocktail glass
  465. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 20:44
    Oooeeeh
  466. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 20:44
    Needs drop shadow
  467. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 20:45
    Inner shadow
  468. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 20:45
    yeah
  469. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 20:47
    Why is my domain dude not sending me the code for my domain.
  470. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 20:47
    Why doesn't he work on a bank holiday?!
  471. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 20:47
    shame upon them!
  472. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 20:48
    I need to move a website…
  473. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 20:49
    It can't wait a day?
  474. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Apr 27 20:49
    Bad planning on your part ;)
  475. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Apr 27 20:50
    Why can't you just do all the things?
  476. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 20:51
    Oh it can wait, no hurry.
  477. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 20:52
    Just, I have time now, not tomorrow :P
  478. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 20:53
    It's HTML only, so should be fine anyway.
  479. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 21:01
    But I totally understand he's not happy with me.
  480. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 21:02
    I've been moving all my stuff to my own server over the past few months :P
  481. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 21:11
    [fstorr] I’m looking for design patterns to warn users about videos that contain flashing. Is anyone aware of any? I’m thinking of using the HTML5 poster attribute to add an image with “{video name}, contains flashing images” and also add that info into the caption and transcript. Which is fine for videos I can control, but what about things like YouTube videos? Would a visual and spoken message at the start be sufficient? And how long should the visual stay on the screen for so it’s likely to be perceived?
  482. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 21:16
    [una] @pstonier: hows it going
  483. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 21:18
    [pstonier] not great, yet
  484. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 21:18
    [pstonier] starting from command line and building up
  485. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 21:19
    [pstonier] command-line itself works fine
  486. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 21:19
    [pstonier] trying to work it into gulp is getting tricky, but will get there
  487. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 21:19
    [pstonier] then getting into dashboard
  488. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 21:30
    @fstorr, a short warning at the beginning of the video?
  489. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 21:30
    Ah, if you can't control them.
  490. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 21:31
    [una] yeah cli worked for me too
  491. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 21:33
    [pstonier] I’m getting the error you did
  492. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 21:34
    [pstonier] thought I had it working, got “pa11y-dashboard started” and “pa11y-webservice started"
  493. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 21:34
    [pstonier] then the error showed up
  494. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 21:35
    [pstonier] ‘make’ runs fine
  495. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 21:35
    [fstorr] @michiel: If we can control them, then how short is short (I’ve been asked this question)? I did a little looking at film trailers to see if the “this trailer is suitable for the audience” screen was a certain length, but it isn’t. So that wasn’t any help. If we can’t control them then the only thing I can think of is some text near the player controls or adding a warning to the title on the page itself.
  496. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 21:45
    [pstonier] localhost:4000 loads the page for the dashboard, but has a 500 error
  497. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 21:46
    [pstonier] tried turning off MAMP, but no dice
  498. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 21:48
    [una] thats exactly what i have too ^
  499. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 21:48
    [una] hey whats the invite link to this channel so I can invite the maintainer of pa11y?
  500. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 21:49
    [pstonier] also getting an deprecation warning (node:62671) DeprecationWarning: sys is deprecated. Use util instead.
  501. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 21:49
    [una] lol same
  502. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 21:49
    [una] hopefully he can help us sort it out tomorrow?
  503. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Apr 27 21:51
    @MichielBijl @jonathantneal the outline algorithm in HTML is dead
  504. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 21:51
    [pstonier] maybe. might be worth putting up another issue on github. Seems to be MongoDB related springernature/pa11y-dashboard#82
  505. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 21:52
    @stevefaulkner, that
  506. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 21:52
    's what I thought.
  507. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 21:52
    Stupid keyboard layout…
  508. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Apr 27 21:53
    🖖
  509. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Apr 27 21:54
    @StommePoes sambal olek for Patrick - easier to mail it, he lives up north, won't see him until September
  510. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Apr 27 21:59
    If browsers won't implement...
  511. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 22:09

    [karlgroves] >Looked at using tenon.io for the same idea, but really wanted to try to experiment with it before paying

    Free trial lasts 30 days! ;)

  512. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 22:11
    @stevefaulkner, did we invite Patrick to the Amsterdam thing?
  513. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 22:11
    I vaguely remember he couldn't come.
  514. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 27 22:11
    if you do you should remember to make sure you make the text in your email formatted in pt
  515. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 22:12
    Ha!
  516. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 22:12
    Good pixel
  517. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 22:12
    err, point
  518. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 22:13
    The best use I have gotten out of this Windows laptop is that the cats love the box it came in.
  519. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 27 22:14
    @fstorr on youtube I see that people put "WARNING MAY CAUSE SEIZURES" in the video title (or something like that).
  520. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 27 22:15
    that could well be the best you can do. Even putting it at the start of the video doesn't really work as you can link to a point in the video and would skip it.
  521. fstorr
    @fstorr
    Apr 27 22:29
    @jnurthen I don't think there's a robust way of doing something unless it's an alert dialog when the page loads/the play button is pressed for the first time. Which, if the video's not a platform you control, isn't going to be possible.
  522. Jonathan Neal
    @jonathantneal
    Apr 27 23:18
    @stevefaulkner, when you say “the outline algorithm in HTML is dead” do you mean for the next year or two, or like, in the bigger picture?
  523. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 27 23:21
    I think he means dead like a parrot. It is not merely resting. But will leave to @stevefaulkner to confirm
  524. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 27 23:27
    I mean - it has been in the spec for 5 years and no one has implemented it. Why would they do so now?
  525. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 27 23:29
    Nice - gitter now lets you sign in with your twitter account for folks who don't use github
  526. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 23:32
    I think the outline algorithm is living out the rest of its years on the Millers farm together with Fluffers and Mister Nibler.
  527. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 23:38
    [marcysutton] Yep, if something doesn’t get implemented then it gets axed. Saw something similar with SVG features recently…users were asked to voice support for them otherwise they’d be removed from the spec. The HTML5 outline algorithm was pretty dead on arrival, I haven’t ever heard of anyone using it.
  528. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 23:42
    It was half supported in FF if I recall correctly, but only on the style level, not the semantics level.
  529. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    Apr 27 23:43
    Other vendors simply didn't bother :(
  530. Jonathan Neal
    @jonathantneal
    Apr 27 23:50
    How would this impact sectioning elements? Would it make some of them much less necessary?