Archive index

A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 5th of May 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 05 08:33
    Goood mooooooorning Slackers!
  2. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 08:37
    [jitendra] good morning
  3. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 05 09:04
    Morning gitters
  4. sophieschoice
    @sophieschoice
    May 05 09:04
    \O
  5. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 09:04
    [michiel] Morning slackers
  6. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 05 09:04
    :)
  7. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 05 09:05
    Today it's Dutch Liberation day, after which it became inaccessible to Axis forces ;)
  8. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 09:31
    [michiel] So do we have to work today?
  9. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 05 09:32
    @MichielBijl depends on your contract =)
  10. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 05 09:32
    I'm a freelancer, int'l clients don't give a shit about Dutch holidays ;)
  11. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 09:36
    [michiel] Well, isn't it a bank holiday every five years or something?
  12. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 05 09:37
    Yeah
  13. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 10:52

    [karlgroves] >I'm a freelancer, clients don't give a shit about holidays ;)

    FTFY

  14. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 05 11:02
    FTFY?
  15. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 11:03
    [karlgroves] FTFY = Fixed That For You
  16. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 05 12:48
    Hey @sophieschoice
  17. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 05 12:48
    Saw this on Web AIM, someone asked where can they get a11y training while doing something? johnf answered:
  18. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 05 12:48

    http://air-rallies.org/

    Another great initiative from Knowbility, this global event matches
    developers who are still honing their accessibility craft with non-profits
    that need new accessible web sites. There is training and mentorship
    available to the teams that do the actual development work, and then a
    "judging" and "awards" at the end (for fun and bragging rights mostly) -
    everyone who is involved is a winner in some fashion or other! :-)

  19. sophieschoice
    @sophieschoice
    May 05 13:12
    Niiiiiiiiice :D, thanks @StommePoes !
  20. sophieschoice
    @sophieschoice
    May 05 13:14
    Good thing is: the European Union wants all public (ie. government sites for example) to be accessible. Since I work at the Provincie Antwerpen since two weeks this might be a great opportunity to develop myself as a bit of an advocate there and do suggestions/tests/whatever to convince them to make themselves a prime example in Belgium.
  21. sophieschoice
    @sophieschoice
    May 05 13:15
    One of my tasks is content work for the website, even if that won't happen much (later perhaps even advice), so that might be the way to go.
  22. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 05 13:34
    ++
  23. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    May 05 15:39
    afternoon slackers :+1:
  24. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 05 15:41
    Afternoon Steve!
  25. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    May 05 15:46
    where's Pepé Le Pew?
  26. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 05 15:47
    @stevefaulkner Huh, weird
  27. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 05 15:48
    I don't know Marcotte
  28. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 05 15:48
    Well,not personally
  29. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 05 15:49
    I don't either.
  30. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    May 05 15:49
    it happens, i get blocked all the time
  31. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    May 05 15:49
    hey mallorrifirous
  32. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 05 15:52
    I would have never known except he was in a convo with Sara Souiedan who I do follow.
  33. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 05 15:53
    I understand getting blocked by people who have interacted with me. It's people who don't even know I exist doing it that's confusing. Well, aphyr blocked me and I can only guess it's because I love his database posts too much :)
  34. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 05 15:56
    I wonder if the new EU-must-be-accessible law will cause, for example, ISPs in France to fix their code.
  35. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    May 05 16:02
    @jkva hopefully saved myself with that last tweet
  36. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 05 16:02
    I will still be nice to you at the a11y meetup, Steve ;) I cannot vouch for MichielBijl however...
  37. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 05 16:03
    Apparently you mentioned his odor as well recently
  38. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    May 05 16:03
    oh yeah, at least it wasn't during a client call
  39. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    May 05 16:03
    i have a form of turettes
  40. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    May 05 16:04
    silly things pop out of my mouth in serious situations
  41. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    May 05 16:04
    and not so serious ones
  42. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    May 05 16:04
    hopefully no one takes me seriously
  43. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 05 16:05
    You serious Steve?
  44. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    May 05 16:06
    what about having an identifiable issue?
  45. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 05 16:06
    About having a form out Tourette's
  46. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    May 05 16:07
    no, not diagnosed but i wouldn't be surprised I am riddled with flaws
  47. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 05 16:07
    Welcome to the species
  48. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    May 05 16:07
    i can't help but be silly at times on tpg internal meetings
  49. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    May 05 16:08
    keeps me sane, same as on the web
  50. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 05 16:08
    Speaking of TPG, another one joined the ranks I saw
  51. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 05 16:08
    Mike is unstoppable
  52. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    May 05 16:09
    yeah he has been on a hiring frenzy
  53. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    May 05 16:09
    some great folk have joined recently though
  54. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 05 16:09
    Yeah, good stuff
  55. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    May 05 16:09
    I like it coz there is less pressure on me to be smart]
  56. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 05 16:09
    CSUN will basically become TPG-CON at this rate
  57. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    May 05 16:10
    :-)
  58. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    May 05 16:12
    its all a con @jkva
  59. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 05 16:12
    Ha!
  60. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 16:36

    [elisa] I have a question related to alt text and images.

    I work on a product that houses things like portals for student organizations, as well as a place for them to advertise events. We are getting into deeper conversations about accessibility and the main question now is about providing alt text for things that are currently being used as background photos.

    I'm curious about how to go about having a conversation with a product owner about what sort of images need descriptive alt text and what could be left blank (I am left to believe this is a thing.. if it's not, please let me know!).

    There are currently photos set as "background-images" for the "portal" type pages and event pages. These images are set by the user, but the image doesn't necessarily provide additional context to the page, it's purely a visual element. I am torn as to what should happen in this case?

  61. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 05 16:37
    Are these similar to the decorative backgrounds found on user profiles like on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn?
  62. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 05 16:37
    If so, they can fully count as "background" and can be added as CSS backgrounds and no text (usually because of hose CMSes work, these are foreground HTML <img>s, so then need alt="")
  63. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 05 16:38
    But you can consider having a field, maybe a required one, in the form where the user uploads an image (assuming they upload individuals and not batches) where they can fill in an alt text.
  64. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 16:39
    [elisa] For an example, the background image here - know this is not the best representation of an accessible site, we're working on it: https://anchorlink.vanderbilt.edu/organization/schoolofmedicine/calendar/details/755397
  65. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 16:40
    [elisa] or the organization background: https://anchorlink.vanderbilt.edu/organization/schoolofmedicine
  66. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    May 05 16:41
    @elisa http://w3c.github.io/html/semantics-embedded-content.html#alt-text contains advice for a range of contexts where images are used - it may be helpful, not trying to put you off asking specific question though :-)
  67. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 05 16:45
    I vaguely recall the old pearson website had alts for those (I think only because they were using <img> tags instead of backgrounds to do something responsive or some CSS thing), but these are definitely backgrounds for the atmosphere... that is, the design could be changed to not include it and no information is lost, but perhaps would look uglier
  68. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    May 05 16:50

    <img> tags

    <img> elements

  69. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 17:28
    [karlgroves] Pedant
  70. sophieschoice
    @sophieschoice
    May 05 17:48
    Apple begins selling accessibility products/accessories: http://www.macrumors.com/2016/05/05/apple-accessibility-accessories-online/
  71. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 05 17:54
    wow
  72. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 05 17:54
    I did not expect
  73. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 05 17:54
    smart of them, I think-- saw Neo's very cool notetaker, cost $5000
  74. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 05 17:54
    so there some lucrative parts of that market
  75. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 05 17:57
    @stevefaulkner I write HTML tags
  76. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 05 17:57
    it's an important ingredient to my soup
  77. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 18:28
    [elisa] Thank you guys :)
  78. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 19:33
    [alice] Hello, I have one dumb ARIA design patterns question if there are any takers!
  79. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 05 19:36
    There are no dumb ARIA design pattern questions.
  80. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 05 19:44
    Only dumb ARIA design patterns…
  81. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 05 19:45
    Lol
  82. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 05 19:45
    =D
  83. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 05 19:45
    If an image has both a title and an alt text, and they don't match, which SC does that fail?
  84. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 05 19:49
    Why should they be the same?
  85. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 05 19:49
    ARIA patterns, I'm shit at it!
  86. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 05 19:51
    @MichielBijl why does that fail. Alt becomes the name, title becomes the accessible description. Only failure is if something conveyed in title not available somewhere else for a sighted keyboard only user.
  87. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 05 19:51
    Okay
  88. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 05 19:52
    So, then it is fine in this case.
  89. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 05 19:52
    Didn't know title mapped to desc.
  90. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 05 19:52
    Should do. Check the mapping doc.
  91. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 20:00
    [alice] @michielbijl: still around? I missed your comment earlier
  92. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 20:00
    [alice] Anyway perhaps someone else can answer (e.g. @cordelia) - why does the menu button pattern not suggest an aria-controls relationship between the button and the menu?
  93. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 20:00
    [michiel] I am around.
  94. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 20:00
    [alice] Is it cause when you have focus on the button, the menu is typically closed?
  95. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 20:01
    [alice] @michiel hi :)
  96. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 20:01
    [michiel] Hmm, I would have to look into that. Maybe jnurthen has time to do that.
  97. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 20:01
    [michiel] Or maybe he just knows ;)
  98. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 05 20:21
    Tooltips shouldn't appear over an element if they are tabbed to, should they?
  99. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 20:23
    [cordelia] if a tooltip is available on hover i’d expect it to be available on focus, too
  100. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 20:23
    [cordelia] ^ title is a little different, though
  101. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 05 20:24
    funny, I had meant a title
  102. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 20:25
    [cordelia] aah, interesting. it’d be nice if title appeared on focus after a delay, just like it does on hover after a delay
  103. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 20:25
    [cordelia] but i don’t think any browsers do that?
  104. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 20:27
    [cordelia] @alice i’m curious about aria-controls, too. random guess and i could be totally wrong: aria-controls is probably most useful when the two related elements aren’t right next to each other in the DOM. when you’re on a menu-button, there’s an assumption that the next thing you get to with your keyboard is its related menu.
  105. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 20:28
    [cordelia] the examples of aria-controls i see in this doc are all elements that aren’t necessarily next to each other: https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/states_and_properties#aria-controls
  106. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 20:29
    [alice] @cordelia: Good point; you may well be onto something there.
  107. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 20:37
    [cordelia] i agree also it may be because the menu isn’t always open
  108. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 20:37
    [cordelia] though don’t folks use aria-controls with accordions?
  109. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 05 20:38
    I find aria-controls to be good in principle, but hard in practice. For example, a button to check/uncheck all would be a valid case for using aria-controls, but setting potentially hundreds of ids in there makes it very difficult to accomplish.
  110. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 05 20:56
  111. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 20:56
    [alice] @powrsurg: Interesting. Seems like you'd want some kind of grouping element to "control" at that point
  112. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 05 20:57
    Mind you, that example misses the intermediate state for the “all” checkbox.
  113. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 05 21:25
    @cordelia [cordelia] but i don’t think any browsers do that? <-- heard from Patrick Lauke that on Win8.1 and 10, in IE11 and Edge, it indeed does appear on focus just like the hover tooltip (if focusable)
  114. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 21:25
    [cordelia] woooooaaaaah that’s cool
  115. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 05 21:26
    and maybe it needs to be turned on.. check very very recent webAIM mailing list archives for discussion
  116. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 05 21:26
    @StommePoes just tested on IE11 and indeed you are correct.
  117. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 05 21:27
    I had no idea.
  118. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 05 21:27
    now we should all log bugs against all the other browsers
  119. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 05 21:28
    Go Microsoft
  120. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 05 21:28
    does not seem to happen on Win7
  121. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 05 21:28
    I have 8.1 so that fits your description
  122. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 05 21:29
    on a similar note - do you think there would be any interest from Dragon users for a bookmarklet which would show the text which you could speak in order to activate things which don't have visible on-screen text? (like iconic buttons)
  123. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 05 21:29
    it would be super easy to write
  124. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 05 21:32
    it would be cool if Dragon had a "click icons" command where everything that did only have an icon showed the hidden textual labels (assuming there are some)
  125. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 05 21:33
    that is kind of what i was envisioning.
  126. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 05 21:33
    first step - write bookmarklet
  127. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 05 21:34
    2nd - submit enhancement to nuance
  128. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 05 21:39
    I've heard @deborahgu mention icons multiple times as an issue
  129. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 05 21:49
    Does anyone have a bookmarklet to remove positive tabindex'?
  130. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 05 21:49
    Really frustrating to test this page -.-
  131. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 22:09
    [sillero] remove positive index means setting it to 0?
  132. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 05 22:10
    Nah, just removing it.
  133. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 05 22:10
    It's all search fields and buttons and shit.
  134. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 05 22:14
    not a bookmarklet but i do have some js for it if you like. would be easy to make a bookmarklet out of it
  135. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 05 22:14
    do you need to support frames/iframes? it is easier to write if you don't....
  136. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 05 22:15
    No I don't
  137. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 05 22:15
    I also don't know how to make a bookmarklet :P
  138. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 05 22:15
    do you want me ddg it for you ?
  139. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 22:16
    [sillero] javascript:document.querySelectorAll('[tabindex]:not([tabindex="0"])').forEach(function(node){node.removeAttribute('tabindex');});
  140. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 22:16
    [sillero] this should do it
  141. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 05 22:17
    you probably don't want to remove -1 either
  142. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 22:17
    [sillero] one sec
  143. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 22:17
    [sillero] yeah
  144. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 05 22:17
    my one highlights the nodes i removed it from too.... makes it easy to see what is going on
  145. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 22:17
    [sillero] done
  146. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 05 22:18
    Sillero: could you post again? IRC doesn't show changes :(
  147. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 22:18
    [sillero] sure
  148. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 22:18
    [sillero] javascript:document.querySelectorAll('[tabindex]:not([tabindex="0"]):not([tabindex="-1"])').forEach(function(node){node.removeAttribute('tabindex');});
  149. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 05 22:19
    for extra credit - only remove tabindex from things which are natively tabbable. If it isn't natively tabbable then change positive tabindex to tabindex=0
  150. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 05 22:19
    Thanks!
  151. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 05 22:19
    for extra credit - only remove tabindex from things which are natively tabbable. If it isn't natively tabbable then change positive tabindex to tabindex=0
  152. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 05 22:20
    Doesn't work in le Safari.
  153. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 05 22:20
    :(
  154. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 05 22:20
    But, too busy to figure out why atm.
  155. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 05 22:21
    try it in the console without the javascript and see what error you get
  156. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 05 22:21
    doh
  157. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 05 22:22
    forEach is not a funtion.
  158. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 22:22
    [sillero] might be the queryselectorAll + foreach
  159. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 22:22
    [sillero] yeah
  160. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 22:22
    [sillero] [].slice.call(document.querySelectorAll('[tabindex]:not([tabindex="0"]):not([tabindex="-1"])')).forEach(function(node){node.removeAttribute('tabindex');});
  161. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 05 22:22
    querySelectorAll doesn't return a live node list.
  162. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 22:22
    [sillero] this now
  163. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 22:23
    [sillero] don’t forget javascript:… for a bookmarklet
  164. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 05 22:23
    That works, thanks
  165. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 05 22:25
    My bookmarks bar is filling up with bookmarklets…
  166. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 05 22:25
    sounds like a good place to store them
  167. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 05 22:27
    alt=Safari with IRCCloud web application shows bookmarks bar where four out of the first five bookmarks are bookmarklets. https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/SYqUMQFi/Screen%20Shot%202016-05-06%20at%2000.25.50.png
  168. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 05 22:27
    Should probably remove PFWG folder :')
  169. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 05 22:45
  170. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 22:46
    [sillero] jnurthen: extra credit javascript:!function(){var e={};[].slice.call(document.body.querySelectorAll("*")).forEach(function(t){t.tagName in e||(e[t.tagName]=0===document.createElement(t.tagName).tabIndex),e[t.tagName]&&t.tabIndex>0&&t.removeAttribute("tabindex")})}();
  171. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 05 22:47
    [sillero] this will only remove the tabindex > 0 from elements which have natively tabindex == 0
  172. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 05 22:53
    Carousels, what are they good for? Absolutely nothing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01-2pNCZiNk&list=LLM5PztMwb4Hity4vZk50FoQ&index=38
  173. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 05 23:11
    @sillero - oooh i like that. Much prettier than my version