Archive index

A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 6th of May 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 01:08
    [marcysutton] A new blog post: https://marcysutton.com/accessibility-and-performance/
  2. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 01:14
    [nschonni] @marcysutton: did you do any testing to see the affects of Adblockers with the AT?
  3. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 01:16
    [marcysutton] ooh no I didn’t, but that would be interesting!
  4. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 01:16
    [nschonni] the youtube video was painful. I sometimes forget how bad the web can be
  5. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 01:21
    [marcysutton] CNN is easy to pick on :\
  6. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 01:23
    [marcysutton] I used their site as an example in my mobile talks last time around, they have this: <div id="search-button" class="search__button" type="button" role="button"></div>
  7. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 01:23
    [marcysutton] No text and no tabindex, so it is useless with a keyboard.
  8. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 01:24
    [nschonni] Is there JS to switch the BEM class when pressed :p
  9. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 01:24
    [marcysutton] haha probably
  10. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 01:25
    [marcysutton] I think talks are my way to vent accessibility fails since I made an entire blog of wins =D
  11. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 01:25
    [nschonni] yeah, i had to laugh when it was used as an example in the multi-<main> debate
  12. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 01:25
    [marcysutton] HA I forgot about that!
  13. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 06 01:33
    And everything is a header on cnn.
  14. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 02:10

    [feather] Regarding Dragon and this thought:

    it would be cool if Dragon had a "click icons" command where everything that did only have an icon showed the hidden textual labels (assuming there are some)

    A dragon user can say "click link" and it'll put a numbered arrow beside each one so they can say the number and activate it. The problem isn't the functionality. It's that many people we've worked with that use Dragon don't know the methods exist. Sad as that may be :(

  15. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 06 02:55
    @feather but they have to do that exact same thing with the numbers the next time too. What I want is a way to discover that the foobar button has a label of foobar so next time the user can say click foobar
  16. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 06:18
    Good mooooooooorning slackers!
  17. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 08:51
    [jitendra] Are most of the accessible websites in the world based on Wordpress?
  18. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 09:04
    [rianrietveld] @jitendra: lol, if only :)
  19. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    May 06 09:43

    now we should all log bugs against all the other browsers

    :+1: :+1: only way to get stuff fixed

  20. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 11:24
    Morning slackers ☀️
  21. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 11:27
    o/
  22. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 11:27
    Where are you that it's still morning ;)
  23. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 12:07
    I mentally switch time zones each day ;)
  24. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 12:07
    Worked till around 4am yesterday -.-
  25. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 06 13:28
    The time zone offsets for people here makes the room odd
  26. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 13:29
    [deborah_kaplan] @jnurthen From last night, wow, that would totally change my life, having a way for Dragon to expose accessible labels to me
  27. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 06 13:30
    and about @jitendra's comment, given that WordPress makes up 25% of the web and they have been baking some a11y into it I would say that it's likely from a percentage stand point
  28. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:01
    [jitendra] i want to rebuild my website. it is on jekyll currently. I want to make it as accessible as possible.
  29. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:02
    [jitendra] there are some accessible wordpress themes but i think if i would use them i will not learn many things
  30. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:02
    [jitendra] which can be experience only if start from scratch with html css
  31. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 06 14:04
    HTML and CSS are basically accessible to start with. It's if you deviate from what you should be doing where things become inaccessible
  32. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 06 14:06
    like using empty links instead of buttons, or divs instead of links or buttons, etc
  33. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:07
    [jitendra] i would write whole html first
  34. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:07

    [rianrietveld] @jiatyan:
    There a a few options:
    1: Get an accessible theme from the WordPress repository, look for the ones labeled “accessibility-ready” https://wordpress.org/themes/tags/accessibility-ready/

    Very good ones are Twenty Sixteen https://wordpress.org/themes/twentysixteen/ and Simone https://wordpress.org/themes/simone/

    2: Buy the Genesis Framework and use the sample theme as base. This is also almost WCAG 2 AA http://www.studiopress.com/

  35. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:08
    [rianrietveld] Starting a WordPress theme with the HTML/CSS is kind of a pain, you better use an existing (child) theme and adjust that to your needs
  36. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:10
    [karlgroves] @jitendra: I have a very bare bones theme you can start with.https://bitbucket.org/karlgroves/day-one-theme
  37. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:11
    [rianrietveld] @karlgroves: can you submit that to the repository?
  38. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:11
    [michiel] waves at Rian
  39. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:11
    [rianrietveld] waves back
  40. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:12
    [karlgroves] Sure. I gotta make sure it isn’t out of date first
  41. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:12
    [michiel] Karl: demo is down.
  42. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:13
    [rianrietveld] I’m getting a ton of questions about this, what are good accessible WP themes, adding yours might be a good one for a starers theme
  43. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:13
    [karlgroves] >Karl: demo is down.
    dammit
  44. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:13
    [rianrietveld] If you do, can you ping @joedolson or @davidakennedy ?
  45. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:13
    [michiel] Mine is pretty accessible, but it's not usable for much other than an index and articles…
  46. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:14
    [rianrietveld] we should make a list somewhere
  47. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:14
    [michiel] + it is littered with bugs :')
  48. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:15
    [rianrietveld] lol, bugs is not good :laughing:
  49. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:15
    [karlgroves] Dutchy. What do you mean down?
  50. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:15
    [jitendra] would knowledge of making wordpress theme help me to get an accessibility job? that would be a reason for me to consider than any static site generator
  51. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:15
    [rianrietveld] huh?
  52. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:16
    [rianrietveld] 2 dutchies in the room
  53. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:16
    [jitendra] hosting of static site is free on github
  54. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:16
    3
  55. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:16
    [michiel] jitendra: I'd say knowledge of HTML would help you get an accessibility job.
  56. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:16
    [karlgroves] Screen Shot 2016-05-06 at 10.15.24 AM.png
  57. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:16
    [rianrietveld] @jitendra there is a lot of work in the WP a11y corner
    [michiel] Karl: was down a minute ago.
  58. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:16
    [michiel] Works now.
  59. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:17
    [davidakennedy] Here’s a list of accessibility-ready themes in the WordPress.org repository: https://wordpress.org/themes/tags/accessibility-ready/ All of those have been tested and should be pretty solid.
  60. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:17

    [karlgroves] >I'd say knowledge of JS would help you get an accessibility job.

    FTFY

  61. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 06 14:17
    I'd say knowledge would help you get an accessibility job. :p
  62. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:17
    [michiel] I'd say knowledge of web standards would help you get an accessibility job.
  63. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:17
    [michiel] FTFY
  64. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:17
    [michiel] Haha
  65. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 06 14:18
    heck, go further
  66. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 06 14:18
    I'd say knowledge would help you get a job.
  67. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:18
    [davidakennedy] Also, this starter theme has a lot of a11y goodness built in: https://github.com/Automattic/_s I work on it at Automattic, and we really try to keep it up to date with best practices.
  68. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:18
    [rianrietveld] Yes, David, but that are only the ones available of the repo, maybe we can add Genesis themes too Shall we make a list of good a11y WP themes as a sticky post on thehttps://wordpress.org/support/forum/accessibility
  69. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:18
    [michiel] I'd say, knowledge would help.
  70. sophieschoice
    @sophieschoice
    May 06 14:18
    @jitendra In my search to get a job in usability/accessibility I noticed companies find professional experience important, especially experience in testing.
  71. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:18
    [rianrietveld] I’d say: study your ass off
  72. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:19
    [davidakennedy] @rianrietveld: Wouldn’t be a bad idea, we’d just have to keep it up to date. :)
  73. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:19
    [michiel] I'd say: research your ass off
  74. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:19
    Echoing RianRietveld
  75. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:19
    [davidakennedy] I know there are a lot more good ones out there, so a bigger list would be great.
  76. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:19
    [michiel] Rian: which study would apply to this field?
  77. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:20
    Books like https://www.manning.com/books/the-art-of-unit-testing
  78. sophieschoice
    @sophieschoice
    May 06 14:20
    books by Jakob Nielsen
  79. sophieschoice
    @sophieschoice
    May 06 14:20
    Steve Krug
  80. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:20
    [michiel] That's not really studying.
  81. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:20
    [michiel] That's just reading.
  82. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:20
    [jitendra] in one job i was told that experience of aria is must which i did not have
  83. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:21
    Jitendra: That's easy to change
  84. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:21
    [rianrietveld] Wp theme building, WCAG, HTML/CSS, Javascript, AJAX, ARIA, NVDA, VoiceOver, MediaElement.js… did I forget something?
  85. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 06 14:21
    I find unit testing difficult. Often I come in to places with years of code with no unit tests. Backfilling stuff is a pain. And often you're barely given enough time to get work done, let alone time to get tests written up to ensure quality over time
  86. sophieschoice
    @sophieschoice
    May 06 14:21
    @michiel: how would you learn something without reading?
  87. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:22
    [rianrietveld] @davidakennedy: I’;
  88. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:22
    I did not know CSS or a11y a year ago (still don't ;) ) but consistent immersion does wonders
  89. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:22
    practice, practice, practice
  90. sophieschoice
    @sophieschoice
    May 06 14:22
    being member of this slack and the web-aim maillist does wonders as well
  91. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:22
    @powrsurg: Agreed - retrofitting legacy code with unit tests is slow and painful
  92. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:23
    @sophieschoice Yes definitely
  93. sophieschoice
    @sophieschoice
    May 06 14:23
    I mean, I just learned today that with ‘Dragon’ Dragon Naturally Speaking is meant.
  94. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:23
    [michiel] sophieschoice: not saying it's not reading, saying I don't think of that as studying.
  95. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:24
    [michiel] Saying I read all that stuff because it's fun :P
  96. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:24
    [michiel] But might be different for others, I don't know.
  97. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:25
    I don't read CSS specs because they're fun :P it's because I want to study how specs are implemented
  98. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:25
    [michiel] Hmm
  99. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:25
    ymmv!
  100. sophieschoice
    @sophieschoice
    May 06 14:25
    @michiel reading books on usability or webdesign in general doesn’t feel like studying either, because I find it interesting and fun. Same goes with blogs, this slack etc.
  101. MichielBijl @MichielBijl remembers reading low vision spec on plane :P
  102. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:25
    [rianrietveld] did you read the CSS specs? wow
  103. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:25
    I did learn new stuff actually
  104. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:26
    I did not know about the all shorthand, for instance
  105. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 14:26
    sophieschoice: exactly!
  106. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:26
    And learned more pseudo selectors from reading the CSS1 spec
  107. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 14:26
    I should really log issues against low vision spec.
  108. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 14:26
    Me forgots to do that.
  109. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:27
    @jitendra: The field is way too wide to be able to learn everything. Learn the basics. HTML / CSS, W3C standards. Then move to JS, read @getify's series. Run the examples. Create a pet project. Help out an open source project.
  110. sophieschoice
    @sophieschoice
    May 06 14:29
    @jkva problem is that most companies want proof of professional experience, things you do in spare time don’t convince them always
  111. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:30
    But it shows you have knowledge. Anything else is always going to be catch-22
  112. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:30
    I've been lucky enough to work for companies to look past my lack of education. I understand that that is not always the case. But I don't see another solution. Perhaps internship.
  113. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:31
    s/companies to/companies that/
  114. sophieschoice
    @sophieschoice
    May 06 14:31
    Agreed, it is just having luck with an employer
  115. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:31
    Yes
  116. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:32
    Having to know something about everything makes this industry difficult as it is. And esp the JS side of things moves way way too fast. Why are there talks given at O'reilly conferences titled 'Refactoring Legacy AngularJS', I mean WTAF
  117. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:32
    @jitendra what's your educational background?
  118. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:32
    [jitendra] Fine arts
  119. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:33
    oof
  120. sophieschoice
    @sophieschoice
    May 06 14:33
    wut? AngularJS already legacy? I just heard about it yesterday :P ?
  121. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:33
    Won't that work for Graphic Design? Or get you a leg up for UI design on the web?
  122. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 14:33
    Traditional education means squat to me.
  123. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:33
    @MichielBijl: sure. but the employment climate where Jitendra is seems to think quite different
  124. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 14:34
    It's a good experience I guess, but doesn't really help.
  125. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 14:34
    That is true.
  126. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:34
    [jitendra] I think i m good enough in html css web standards, web performance, sass, postcss, ux design and some jquery.
  127. sophieschoice
    @sophieschoice
    May 06 14:34
    wow, sounds good to me!
  128. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:34
    I've been turned down from jobs because I didn't have an university study. "Your code is great, but you won't fit culturally" well have fun with your frat party :P
  129. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:34
    [jitendra] and i have basic a11y knowledge and good sense of it
  130. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 14:34
    jkva: haha
  131. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:35
    @Jitendra Would you be willing to relocate?
  132. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:35
    Or is remote work an option?
  133. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 14:35
    I think passion is what gets you the furthest.
  134. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:35
    [jitendra] yes
  135. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:35
    As long as passion helps offset ROI, then yeah
  136. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 14:35
    How do you mean?
  137. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:36
    Passion is worthless if it doesn't pad the bottom line, makes the company money
  138. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:36
    [jitendra] I applied to simplyaccessible remote job today
  139. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:36
    I was just going to bring them up =)
  140. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:36
    I know they're looking hard for people
  141. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 14:36
    Nice Jitendra.
  142. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:36
    Try KnowBility
  143. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:36
    Try Deque
  144. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:36
    Just contact them
  145. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:36
    Hell, try SSB Bart ;)
  146. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 14:37
    jkva: sure, so, you have to find a company that shares your passion.
  147. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 14:37
    Yeah, but definitely skip TPG, they're a bunch of weirdos.
  148. sophieschoice
    @sophieschoice
    May 06 14:37
    @jitendra perhaps you should try government, and no webdesign agencies and the like
  149. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 14:37
    You don't want to end up working with Karl…
  150. sophieschoice
    @sophieschoice
    May 06 14:38
    @jitendra I feel government has a more open mind when recruiting people
  151. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:38
    [jitendra] I m one of the group moderator on web accessibility group on linkedin since 2010
  152. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:39
    [jitendra] in 2009-10 i worked in a service based company which build IR websites for European companies
  153. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:39
    [jitendra] and basic accessibility was necessity
  154. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 14:40
    LinkedIn, now that's a word I haven't heard in a while.
  155. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:40
    [jitendra] that is how i came to know about accessibilty
  156. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 14:40
    I should still delete it :x
  157. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:40
    Sounds like good stuff for a cover letter
  158. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:42
    [jitendra] my stackoverflow questions about accessibility https://stackoverflow.com/search?tab=newest&q=user:84201 %5baccessibility%5d
  159. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 14:43
    jkva: what's a cover letter?
  160. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:43
    Introduction letter to a job application
  161. sophieschoice
    @sophieschoice
    May 06 14:43
    sollicitatiebrief for Dutchies ;)
  162. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 14:43
    Ah, right.
  163. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:43
    So you send a cover letter accompanied by résumé
  164. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:43
    Back in the darkness, before the web
  165. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 14:44
    Before you got 20 mails a day asking if you want to work for some magic company that they can't tell you all that much about.
  166. sophieschoice
    @sophieschoice
    May 06 14:44
    Hehehe
  167. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 14:45
    I'm pretty happy with my last recruiter though.
  168. sophieschoice
    @sophieschoice
    May 06 14:45
    I remember last year I got a text message on my phone from a recruiter, asking if I got his mail. Found that a bit invasive
  169. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:45
    heh
  170. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 14:46
    wow
  171. sophieschoice
    @sophieschoice
    May 06 14:46
    yeah, I don’t mind mails and calls, but text messages are bit to much in personal space
  172. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:47
    [jitendra] The problem with my profile is that I have not worked as an accessibility expert before.
  173. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:48
    [jitendra] Worked as a Graphic designer, Front-end developer, UX engineer
  174. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 14:48
    Jitendra: that shouldn't matter too much. Of course, it helps, but should not be necessary. You do, however, need to be able to convince other people of your knowledge.
  175. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:48
    +1
  176. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:49
    [jitendra] ok
  177. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:50
    [jitendra] I have been offered a accessibility consultant job in Cognizant in 2011 which I did not take
  178. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:50
    Could always contact them again ;)
  179. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:50
    "Yeah I didn't feel ready in 2011, but boy am I ready now"
  180. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 14:50
    ;)
  181. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:53
    [jitendra] A question I asked in 2010 :) https://stackoverflow.com/questions/2467440/which-alt-text-is-best-for-screen-readers-for-example-smiling-kid
  182. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:54
    [jitendra] I used to ask lots of question that time. I was too curious
    https://stackoverflow.com/questions/2414321/why-wcag-made-3-level-a-aa-and-aaa
  183. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 14:56
    I would be tempted to say “Smiling kid in garden”, because it creates a setting.
  184. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 14:57
    Even though Jared says it is “unnecessary” information.
  185. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 14:57
    [jitendra] Now I laugh on some question I asked there. Like this =D
    https://stackoverflow.com/questions/2361144/should-i-provide-these-things-by-default-or-only-on-client-request
  186. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 06 15:00
    We have a dialog that should come up when a user clicks submit to some form. Where should the focus be placed in relation to the dialog. Should it be placed on the dialog element itself so that a screen reader would start reading for the top, or should it focus on the button inside to approve or cancel? Practically everywhere I see an auto focus on the approve button, but testing in Firefox/NVDA it just read off the send and not the message in the dialog.
  187. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:12
    Brian: first focusable.
  188. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:12
    https://dir.rawr.eu/research/dialog/index.html
  189. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:13
    http://w3c.github.io/aria-practices/#dialog_modal
  190. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 15:13
    Thanks @Michiel - good stuff
  191. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:13
    When a modal dialog opens focus goes to the first focusable item in the dialog.
  192. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:14
    Pas de problème
  193. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 15:18
    [jitendra] What would matter most a) How accessible my own site is or b) How useful my blog posts are
  194. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 06 15:18
    See, that is what we're doing. But a screen reader isn't read the message on screen. That sounds weird
  195. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:18
    Brian: which AT?
  196. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:19
    Jitendra: both.
  197. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 06 15:19
    I tested Firefox/NVDA
  198. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:19
    That's why my blog has no content :P
  199. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 15:19
    B shows you know your stuff. A shows you practice what you preach
  200. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:19
    Brian: ah, only one I haven't tested.
  201. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:20
    jkva++
  202. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:20
    Brian: is that what you get with my example?
  203. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 06 15:21
    sorry no, I got what your example indicates
  204. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 15:21
    Don't ++ me, I don't do either of those =D
  205. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:21
    Cameron: will get back to you next week re APG.
  206. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:21
    jkva: you have a blog?
  207. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 15:21
    Inactive
  208. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:21
    Brian: so, does your dialog have proper roles etc?
  209. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 15:22
    http://grue.nl/ =)
  210. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:23
    So you're actually Gru from Despicable Me?
  211. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 15:23
    Are you trying to lose geek points Michiel?
  212. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 06 15:23
    Yes. Ours just says "Dialog. Send button".
  213. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 06 15:23
    Which makes sense since we auto-focus on the button
  214. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:23
    jkva: I have those?
  215. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 06 15:24
    It's doing what we're telling it to, but I question if that is truly right. The reader never gets the actual message.
  216. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 06 15:24
    I thought that's what ++ did? ;)
  217. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:24
    Haha
  218. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 06 15:25
    and actually, it's nice to see others have issues with VoiceOver reading stuff out of order. Are there any fixes for that?
  219. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:25
    Brian: that's weird :/ Should announce message too.
  220. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:25
    Do you have aria-labelledby and describedby on role=dialog?
  221. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 06 15:25
    well on https://dir.rawr.eu/research/dialog/index.html you said that it didn't read the message eitehr
  222. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 06 15:25
    either
  223. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:25
    Because that broke it.
  224. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:25
    Brian: only if I set labelled/described-by.
  225. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:26
    If I remove that, it's fine.
  226. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:26
    Although it breaks on iOS…
  227. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 06 15:27 
    <dialog tabindex="-1" class="cw_dialog" id="event_email_dialog" role="dialog" style="top: 181px; max-height: 633.5px;" open="open">       <input type="button" aria-label="Click to close this dialog box." title="Close" value="X" class="cw_dialog_close" id="close">       <p class="cw_dialog_title" id="event_email_title">asd</p>       <div class="cw_dialog_content_wrapper">         <div class="cw_dialog_body" id="event_email_body">You are about to send an email notifying everyone in your organization that an event has been created.<br><hr><p>This will be sent to 206 learners.</p></div>         <div class="cw_dialog_buttons">           <input type="button" class="cw_default_focus" id="event_email_dialog_send" name="event_email_dialog_buttons" value="Send">           <input type="button" id="event_email_dialog_cancel" name="event_email_dialog_buttons" value="Cancel">         </div>       </div>     </dialog>
  228. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:28
    Use some pee
  229. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:28
    <p>*
  230. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:28
    • there is no heading?
  231. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 06 15:28
    I know role="dialog" shouldn't be needed, but with Firefox's level of support that should be there
  232. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 06 15:29
    there is no labelled/described-by
  233. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:29
    That is good.
  234. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:29
    But there is also no heading?
  235. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 06 15:29
    the argument we had about using a heading tag there is we don't know where in the document it go so we use a <p>
  236. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:30
    <h2>Warning</h2><p>You're about to…</p>
  237. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 06 15:30
    I feel it should have had aria-labelledby="event_email_title"
  238. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:30
    Yeah, but that breaks it in VoiceOver.
  239. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 06 15:30
    That is the entire dialog
  240. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:30
    I still want to test that with other AT.
  241. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 06 15:30
    All it read in Firefox was "Dialog. Send buton".
  242. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 06 15:31
    You could tab around to the different buttons. We had that all worekd out
  243. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 06 15:31
    worked
  244. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:31
    So, what if you change the event_email_title to a heading?
  245. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:31
    Or, add role=heading level=2
  246. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 06 15:35
    I just changed to h2 but it didn't matter
  247. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:35
    As for the “where in document” argument, I guess it doesn't really matter as you're lifted out of location anyway, but not sure.
  248. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:35
    Hmm.
  249. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:36
    So what exactly does NVDA say on my example?
  250. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 06 15:37
    "Dialog. Footer. Ok button."
  251. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:38
    :/
  252. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:38
    So it does not announce the title and text etc?
  253. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:39
    Which version of NVDA+FF?
  254. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:40
    I think that is actually something with FF as JAWS get it wrong with FF too.
  255. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 06 15:41
    Windows 7
  256. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 06 15:41
    Firefox 45.0.2
  257. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:41
    :+1:
  258. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 06 15:41
    NVDA 2016.1
  259. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 15:42
    Updated page, thanks.
  260. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 06 16:03
    @feather icons are used on all sorts of things: links, buttons, made-up clickables, and very often I can't tell what exactly something is. Also for some reason in Dragon I've had trouble with "click link" with code like a href="javascript(){does stuff;}" img src="some dumb icon" alt="next page" /a and I'm not sure if it's the image or the inline js causing it (and no, I have no control over this code and yes, it's fresh code :(
  261. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 16:09
    [jitendra] I read on twitter that now there will be a a11y law in europe
  262. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 16:10
    [jitendra] does it mean that now there would be more a11y jobs in europe?
  263. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 16:15
    Means there is going to be more work then there are people to fix it.
  264. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 06 16:45
    @deborahgu I'll look at building a bookmarklet for it next week.... bit busy finishing up a training class for Monday at the moment!
  265. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 16:58
    [jitendra] Has anyone tried any free hosting for wordpress?
  266. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 16:58
    wordpress.com?
  267. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 16:59
    [jitendra] that is not customizable I guess
  268. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 17:00
    I have no clue, hosting is cheap enough not to look for free hosting.
  269. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 17:00
    Not sure how it is over there, but here you can have hosting at around 60-100 euro a year.
  270. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 17:00
    VPN with 50GB SSD and 1TB of data for 10€ a month.
  271. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 17:01
    The domains that run of it cost more per year :P
  272. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 17:03
    Went from 192 mails to just 25…
  273. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 17:03
    Only took me 4 hours -.-
  274. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 17:35
    [rianrietveld] AGREE WITH @michiel . And the accessibility of wordpress.com is not so good … especially the Admin needs a lot of work to get accessible.
  275. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 06 18:06
    maybe it's just me running servers for work for years, but I could never stand shared hosting for my own site
  276. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 18:22
    [saltnburnem] When working on a site that was built with jade, is it possible to add aria roles and alt attrbs in the jade so it compiles to html or is it best to do that in the html only?
  277. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 19:05
    You can as you would any other attribute :)
  278. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 19:11
    [saltnburnem] That is what I thought, but I couldn’t find any documentation on the jade site
  279. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 19:31
    [marcysutton] like button (aria-expanded=“false”) ?
  280. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 19:32
    [marcysutton] I think it sorta depends which attributes you’re putting into Jade/HTML vs. applying them with JS. Some attrs don’t make sense to add in HTML if they are heavily JS-dependent. If you support progressive enhancement, that is.
  281. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 20:31
    [saltnburnem] thanks for the insight @marcysutton
  282. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 20:31
    [saltnburnem] It is a project I am contributing too that doesn’t have basic a11y stuff baked in, but it is written in jade
  283. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 20:33
    Go for it! As Marcy says, add via JS where applicable.
  284. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 20:39
    [saltnburnem] if only I were good at JS lol
  285. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 20:46
    document.getElementById('butt-button').addAttribute('aria-expanded', 'false')
  286. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 20:46
    There you go :P
  287. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 20:47
    [mrenty] document.getElementById('butt-button’).setAttribute('aria-expanded', 'false’) ;)
  288. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 20:48
    Meh
  289. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 20:48
    I'll go back to doing what I'm good add :P
  290. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 06 20:48
    what is that?
  291. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 06 20:48
    ;)
  292. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 20:48
    [mrenty] Haha =D
  293. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 20:48
    [mrenty] https://cdn.meme.am/instances/67192320.jpg
  294. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 20:49
    jnurthen: making commits to ARIA at 1AM on a Friday.
  295. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 20:50
    Oh BTW, Authoring Practices Editors Draft is now automatically updated with each push!
  296. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 06 20:51
    nice
  297. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 06 20:52
    I have 2 1/2 hours to teach HTML accessibility (to a mixed audience but mostly application developers). Which bits should I leave out. Do I need to go into the basics or can I assume they know how to create headers etc :)
  298. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 06 20:52
    at the moment I'm covering the basics but going really quickly through those bits
  299. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 20:54
    I'd keep that in, most don't know basics.
  300. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 06 20:55
    yeah - thats what i figured
  301. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 06 20:56
    single page apps really compicate the rules
  302. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 06 20:56
    half the stuff i tell people to do is different depending on how the page is rendered
  303. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 06 20:56
    especially the error messaging side. i'm getting hung up on it.
  304. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 06 20:56
    have to get back to it now though.... presenting on monday and on a plane all day sunday
  305. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 21:01
    Sounds like fun.
  306. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 21:01
    What is different with the error side?
  307. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 06 21:08
    well - live regions, focus model... and just communicating that something has happened
  308. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 06 21:08
    basically everything
  309. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 06 21:09
    I get asked the question all the time "Where should focus go if I do xyz" and my answer always is - it depends how you are doing xyz (under the surface)
  310. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 06 21:10
    same answer for error messages
  311. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 06 21:10
    damn devs always want concrete answers
  312. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 21:11
    See #focus-management on Slack; had interesting discussion with Marcy.
  313. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 06 21:12
    what is slack ;)
  314. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 21:12
    It's a chat platform trying to replace e-mail. It has terrible accessibility but is never the less valued at over 2.8 Billion dollars.
  315. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 21:13
    E-mail has recently been valued at 2¢
  316. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 06 21:13
    ahhh - i hear on the grapevine that they have recently hired an accessibility PM
  317. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 06 21:14
    still doesn't change the fact that my work blocks it though
  318. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 21:14
    [marcysutton] :(
  319. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 21:17
    https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/QLf41qKC/Focus%20management.rtf
  320. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 21:17
    There you go :P
  321. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 06 21:17
    Or is IRCCloud also blocked?
  322. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 06 21:19
    thanks... I'm shocked that irccloud works
  323. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 06 21:20
    interesting..... would have been nice to have particpated in that conversation :)
  324. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 06 21:20
    i'll try to read more after this class
  325. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 06 21:21
    I think I mostly agree with Marcy - although often i don;t move focus at all but just rely on a message to say new content has loaded
  326. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 06 21:21
    for example in this sample that was linked - http://robdodson.github.io/udacity-a11y/lesson2-focus/08-spa-example-solution/#!/ingredients I don't like moving to the header.... i'd prefer to leave focus where it is
  327. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 06 21:22
    but in , for example, a wizard type interface of course you move focus to the top of the new content.
  328. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 06 21:45
    [marcysutton] For a simple interface it definitely doesn’t seem as necessary. For a big web application though, it is important to direct the user’s focus into new content. Otherwise they will have to go searching for it.
  329. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 06 21:46
    oh yeah - I totally get it.... we have a few big web applications :)
  330. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 06 21:48
    IMO you need to either (a) leave focus where it is and use a live region to tell the user something happened (and ideally exactly what happened) or (b) move focus to the newly added content. Which you do is situation dependent