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A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 10th of May 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 10 00:16
    I'm here.
  2. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 10 00:18
    @jessebeach did quail ever test PDF's? I thought it only looked at
  3. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 10 00:18
    HTML
  4. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 10 00:31
    The website I'm testing has all images for the frontpage content :(
  5. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 10 00:31

    sadpanda

  6. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 10 00:58
    [jessebeach] @jnurthen, it has no PDF testing support right now
  7. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 10 00:59
    @jessebeach I didn't think it did.
  8. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    May 10 01:40
    L
  9. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 10 01:41
    [nschonni] K
  10. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 10 08:01
    J
  11. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 10 08:50
    Good morning slackers!
  12. MichielBijl @MichielBijl waves at jkva
  13. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 10 08:53
    [jitendra] good morning
  14. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 10 09:01
    Good morning Jitendra, up for a new day of job hunting?
  15. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 10 09:06
    [jitendra] @michiel: Yeah, passively.
  16. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 10 09:06
    Hallo!
  17. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 10 09:07
    [jitendra] Doing a freelance work today, HTML Email Development
  18. MichielBijl @MichielBijl pukes
  19. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 10 09:16
    Sorry, I can't stand HTML e-mails.
  20. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 10 09:17
    [jitendra] ha ha
  21. jkva @jkva throws some plain text lozenges at MichielBijl
  22. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 10 09:18
    <3
  23. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 10 09:22
    alt=html e-mail content is shown overflowing width of window. https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/k9xA9PoN/Screen%20Shot%202016-05-10%20at%2011.22.10.png
  24. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 10 09:22
    What's up with that…
  25. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 10 09:23
    Terrible thing here of course is that it is styled as plain text :')
  26. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 10 09:23
    Or maybe it's an Apple Mail thing; I don't know really.
  27. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 10 09:24
    In any case, HTML e-mails are more like Word template e-mails.
  28. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 10 13:45
    hmm, would a multi-part email that has both text and html email be accessible by default, or should the html in the html email version also need a11y work?
  29. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 10 13:45
    and can we finally stop needing table design for html emails?
  30. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 10 13:45
    Good question, not sure how that gets interpreted.
  31. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 10 13:56
    [jdan] Pasted image at 2016 05 10 09 44 AM
  32. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 10 13:56
    [jdan] We're adding a calendar widget on Khan Academy for our SAT test prep. it's a grid of cells with some icons and hovering over each one displays a tooltip with a long description explaining the progress you've made on that day. I can add accessibility labels to this without much issue, but I'm concerned about keyboard accessibility here. Should we make each cell tabbable? Seems like a lot of tabbing...
  33. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 10 14:05
    jdan: each focusable should be able to receive focus from tabbing.
  34. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 10 14:05
    You can include a skip link for the section of the page :)
  35. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 10 14:19
    part of me feels like you should have arrow key access too
  36. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 10 14:21
    I'm not aware of anything that says you should/must do that. But I feel it'd be useful. But that's just my own 2 ¢
  37. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 10 14:38
    [jdan] @MichielBijl should I even make them focusable though? in the screenshot they are, but to me it seems like far too much tabbing. I am not familiar with the UX of a skip link for a particular page section, but that seems promising!
  38. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 10 14:39
    [jdan] @powrsurg agreed, I forwarded that along, thank you :)
  39. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 10 14:39
    np
  40. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 10 14:45
    [jitendra] @powrsurg: possible if we support only latest clients and use a single column layout only
  41. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 10 14:46
    well, that would make it easier
  42. powrsurg @powrsurg made a card game that let you arrow between cards, and the number of cards on each row was responsive/variable
  43. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 10 14:52
    http://powrsurg.com/work/memory_game/ that game is mostly accessible ... or at least I think it is
  44. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 10 14:52
    jdan: well, if you think it is too much tabbing, then maybe the chosen UI isn't the one you want. The hidden content should be accessible one way or another.
  45. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 10 14:53
    Maybe a list is more appropriate there.
  46. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 10 14:54
    Calendars are really a lot more trouble than they should be
  47. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 10 15:14
    [jdan] @MichielBijl - yeah an alternate list representation would be really great
  48. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 15:54
    We're making a similar type of component, a calendar paired with a list... currently we're deciding the calendar is visual-assistive only and is not keyboardable (except of course with a screen reader)
  49. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 15:55
    but they may change that, and in your case, you have meaning with tooltips you want to show
  50. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 15:55
    so if you pair with a list, perhaps the colour/texture/image you're using in the calendar can be paired up with the relevant list item.
  51. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 10 16:04
    The ID24 website has been updated for next weeks event: http://www.inclusivedesign24.org
  52. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 10 16:04
    https://twitter.com/MichielBijl/status/730065736991973377
  53. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 16:28
    I've spread it around to some colleagues
  54. Amanda Rush
    @amandarush
    May 10 16:31
    Hey a11y slackers.
  55. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 16:31
    hey megarush
  56. Amanda Rush
    @amandarush
    May 10 16:34
    Damn. I put the music on the big speakers today, and I just had to turn it down because the laptop speakers can't outrun them. ;)
  57. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 10 16:44
    going with the above, do you have the list actually appear for everyone, or just to screen readers? And is that okay?
  58. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 16:46
    In our case, the list is for everyone, and in fact only the list has links to relevant things (these are assignment due dates and links to assignments), while the calendar only visually shows dates with something due, current-day highlight, and a week stretching around that current day with another highlight. I'm debating whether to have hidden text for those but thinking yeah, some people might prefer finding due dates in a calendar
  59. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 16:46
    The thing needs more user testing, there's talk of removing the calendar altogether anyway
  60. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 16:47
    So it's a one-data-input, two-ways-of-showing kind of things.
  61. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 10 16:57
    Can they advance forward/backwards weeks?
  62. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 10 16:57
    Seems like any list would likely have a cut off somewhere
  63. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 10 17:16
    [jdan] @StommePoes right on, I'll forward this along :)
  64. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 17:49
    btw I like the idea of the calendar itself being a single tab stop and arrows going within... not sure if SRs will negate that (hopefully, as they have their own table navs) but then just as with tab panels and other widgets, you'll need some visible instructions for that
  65. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 17:49
    I think then Dragon users, if given the information, can say things like "arrow down" and "arrow right" to move around with arrows if they want, instead of mouse-cubing
  66. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 10 17:49
    StommePoes: are you suggesting we steel your scroll arrows again :P
  67. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 17:49
    Luckily, I haven't yet come across a calendar that takes up my entire screen
  68. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 17:50
    I don't mind arrows working in tab panels, but I need to be able to scroll my screen too. And I noticed back a while that pgUp/pgDown were being recommended with ctrl... that's what I use to cycle through my browser tabs, no touchy
  69. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 10 17:51
    Who recommended that?
  70. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 10 17:51
    The APG?
  71. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 17:51
    Oh and we were thinking of removing/hiding/not building the calendar when attached to a date picker and instead letting the mobile OS use its own, but I dunno if the mobile ones are all good.
  72. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 10 17:52
    All the page up|down stuff was removed IIRC
  73. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 17:52
    Michiel https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#tabpanel
  74. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 17:52
    Is that an old URL?
  75. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 17:52
    It's the first that comes up in DDG
  76. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 10 17:52
    [michiel] No, that is current TR.
  77. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 17:52
    it's ctrl+pgUP/pgDn
  78. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 17:52
    Control+PageUp - When focus is inside of a tab panel, pressing Control+PageUp moves focus to the tab of the previous tab in the tab list and activates that tab. When focus is in the first tab panel in the tab list, pressing Control+PageUp will move focus to the last tab in the tab list and activate that tab.
    Control+PageDown When focus is inside of a tab panel, pressing Control+PageDown moves focus to the tab of the next tab in the tab list and activates that tab. When focus is in the last tab panel in the tab list, pressing Control+PageUpwill move focus to the first tab in the tab list and activate that tab.
  79. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 10 17:53
    [michiel] But we work quick: http://w3c.github.io/aria-practices/#tabpanel
  80. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 17:53
    I dunno actually if it's possible for JS to override my browser... is it? I remember a page that used CTRL-L for something and I could NOT get into my addressbar
  81. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 10 17:53
    [michiel] So, that has been removed.
  82. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 17:54
    so, when does the github.io replace the wai-aria-practives version?
  83. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 17:54
    I only ask because the github one isn't on my duck page.
  84. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 10 17:55
    [michiel] Every three months or so :)
  85. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 17:55
    oh nice... but was there some Good Reason someone wanted those?
  86. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 10 17:55
    [michiel] Oh, and what you linked to is very old.
  87. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 17:56
    I'm assuming now it's because they want web to mimic desktop, but here it's web AND desktop running together
  88. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 17:56
    I asked if it was old
  89. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 17:56
    It
  90. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 17:56
    It
  91. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 17:56
    s what shows up
  92. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 17:56
    @StommePoes
    Michiel https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#tabpanel
    Is that an old URL?
    It's the first that comes up in DDG
    @StommePoes
    it's ctrl+pgUP/pgDn
    @zakim-robot
    [michiel] No, that is current TR.
  93. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 10 17:57
    [michiel] Soooo, your url should forward to that.
  94. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 10 17:57
    [michiel] I don't know why W3schools keeps those things around.
  95. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 10 17:57
    [michiel] There should be one version of a document.
  96. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 17:57
    This is a serious problem for the w3c in general. Our developers use the googles to find specs.
  97. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 10 17:57
    [michiel] All the other ones should be placed after some disallow robot.txt or something.
  98. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 17:58
    yes. And any old versions kept for teh records should have a puke-yellow background and vampire-red text and maybe comic sans on everything
  99. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 17:58
    I can see a reason to keep old specs
  100. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 10 17:58
    [michiel] I like that, I'll talk to Michael.
  101. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 17:59
    I'm often looking up where I thought x-idea came from, usually turns out I did read it somewhere, just got outdated.
  102. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 17:59
    Oh they should add this too http://zurb.com/playground/jquery-raptorize
  103. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 18:00
    I've noticed the konami code never does anything on my linux browsers... not sure why
  104. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 18:02
    stupids-- their konami code doens't work and the button you can click isn't keyboardable <a class="raptor button" id="raptorize">Make a Raptor Pwn My Screen</a>
  105. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 18:02
    but so anyway, something like that except actually works.
  106. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 18:03
    maybe an apatosaurus poops on the screen instead
  107. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 18:03
    and it can be Steve's favourite pile-of-poo emojicons.
  108. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 10 18:04
    [michiel] Maybe the sheep poo slide from Karl and Billy's talk?
  109. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 18:05
    U+1F4A9
  110. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 18:05
    sheep make little poo
  111. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 10 18:07
    [michiel] You have le mail
  112. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 18:09
    If he wants a DDG screenshot it's his
  113. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 18:10
    my terms: 'aria authoring practices tab panel'
  114. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 18:10
    and so... is the github one the most-recent stable or... ?
  115. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 18:10
    because I think I've been sending everyone at pearson that "old" URL
  116. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 10 18:10
    [michiel] No, github.io has Editors Draft.
  117. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 18:10
    for our components
  118. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 10 18:11
    [michiel] Which is as good as any at the moment because the other one is the Working Draft.
  119. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 10 18:11
    What is with people that make links without an href? What do they think they're doing?
  120. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 18:13
    I have no idea they're like Dude, like, where's my car?
  121. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 18:13
    But I see it quite a lot
  122. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 18:13
    So I think people mean a button, but use an anchor out of... habit, maybe
  123. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 18:13
    and then so no href because it's really meant to be a button
  124. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 18:14
    (as the above is, push-button, it only runs a script)
  125. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 18:14
    and then they don't realise no href==not focusable
  126. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 10 18:19
    well, I don't think they even grasp why someone would want to use a keyboard to browse the web
  127. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 10 18:19
    and using CSS to style a <button> is hard!
  128. Amanda Rush
    @amandarush
    May 10 18:24
    I'd like to favorite that comment from Malorie about W3C, teh Google, and outdated specs. Yes, we use teh Googles to find shit. All the time.
  129. Amanda Rush
    @amandarush
    May 10 18:27
    I'm taking a free accessibility auditing course just so I can get very good at quickly finding things in the specs. But if someone has to take a course to find accessibility stuff, that's pretty messed up, and points at why devs know so little about it.
  130. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 10 18:28
    I would personally always link to the ED on github; because it is the most recent.
  131. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 10 18:33
    If you want something more concrete, then W3schools need to fix their shit.
  132. Amanda Rush
    @amandarush
    May 10 18:38
    @MichielBijl I suppose I could go watch the GitHub so I get emails or notifications in the RSS reader when things get updated. But yes W3Fools needs to fix their shit.
  133. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 18:51
    I wonder if we could tell DDG to wipe out certain URLs tho
  134. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 18:51
    that was originally one of the features
  135. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 18:51
    meant to get rid of those ehow type content-stealing sites
  136. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 18:52
    if the community didn't click on those results, DDG would lower them or stop showing them, to give higher-quality results
  137. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 18:52
    betcha WC3 could ask them "show only these URLs in results" and they just might do it
  138. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 10 18:53
    I know that's not google but I think DDG has a more developer-oriented base anyway
  139. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 10 18:53
    So my co-worker has a bug in his code. It returns a "Found" message. What should that be, a 040?
  140. Amanda Rush
    @amandarush
    May 10 18:55
    Yeah W3C could probably get DDG to not show certain results. They can with Google too, they just need a proper robots.txt file.
  141. Amanda Rush
    @amandarush
    May 10 18:55
    Or 301 the old stuff to the new.
  142. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 10 18:57
    speaking as someone that used to do SEO, 301 is the best method
  143. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 10 18:58
    also, if you add the robots.txt stuff that will just make the search engines not re-crawl the files files and thus never learn about the 301s
  144. Amanda Rush
    @amandarush
    May 10 19:14
    Yeah I think 301 is better, but that would also require a person/persons to keep track of what's going on. Oh wait, we want that. :P
  145. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 10 19:29
    Well, I have mailed Michael Cooper—W3C team contact for APG—to ask if he can make the changes.
  146. Amanda Rush
    @amandarush
    May 10 20:03
    @MichielBijl hope you get a positive response.