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A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 26th of May 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. David Storey
    @dstorey
    May 26 04:11
    Forgive the noob question, but I have a noob question
  2. David Storey
    @dstorey
    May 26 04:17

    So I want to make a simple popup button (or menu button or whatever you want to call it), so I thought I’d do it something like:

    <button class="button--popup" aria-haspopup="true" aria-owns="popup">Button Text</button>

    <ul role="menu" hidden id="popup">
    <li role="presentation"><input type="radio" role="menuitemradio" name="foo" id="foo"/><label for="foo">Foo</label></li>

    </ul>

    But alas, that doesn't validate, as role="menuitemradio" (and checkbox) require aria-checked. But that seems silly to me because I'm using a native radio (or checkbox) which natively gets a checked property. And according to HTML-AAM, checked maps to https://w3c.github.io/aria/html-aam/html-aam.html#att-checked which basically is aria-checked, so to me it feels redundant and silly to have to manage its state with JS when HTML will natively do it for me.

  3. I feel like the spec shouldn't require aria-checked if on a checkable element, but maybe I'm missing something
  4. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 26 05:49
    @dstorey interesting. I think I feel the same as you that I shouldn't have to do that but the spec implies that I do.
  5. David Storey
    @dstorey
    May 26 05:50
    i'm pretty sure the UA will map it to the same so won't be any difference from a browser/SR perspective (as long as they're reading the A11y tree, not scraping the DOM), but I've not tested.
  6. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 26 05:54
    Yeah. I think you are right. How can we resolve this definitively? What needs clarifying in the aria spec so we know whether this is ok or not?
  7. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 26 06:04
    Morning friends, Romans, countrymen, slackers
  8. David Storey
    @dstorey
    May 26 06:49
    it looks like it isn't mentioned as required in http://www.w3.org/TR/2016/WD-wai-aria-1.1-20160317/#menuitemcheckbox but isn't mentioned that i can see as a change in the changelog unless i'm missing it. But it feels like it should be required if not on a checkable element
  9. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 26 07:06
    Hrm. Hacking with aria-busy and aria-live somewhat works for change collation, but is not ideal
  10. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 26 07:21
    Grr Perl people, don't write examples like <form onsubmit="sendChat(this.children[0]); return false"><input></form>
  11. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    May 26 07:38
    @dstorey aria-checked shouldn't be required when sub setting native radio/checkbox roles (me thinks) what happens in practice? Is it required?
  12. David Storey
    @dstorey
    May 26 07:49
    @stevefaulkner i've not tested yet, as just designing one of our components and not implemented yet, but as they map to same thing (and input radio/checkbox probably have wider support than aria equivalents, I suspect it just works. Will test tomorrow when I implement. Either way I guess HTML5 validator will still fail it as they don't track aria 1.1 yet
  13. similar concern with hidden over aria-hidden, but I don;t think anything mandates aria-hidden, just all the examples usually tell you to set that.
  14. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    May 26 08:50
    morning, slackers.
  15. :coffee:
  16. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    May 26 09:02
    morning @pkra
  17. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    May 26 09:02
    \o/
  18. Fun fact: Wikipedia is scheduled to switch its default for equations from PNG to SVG+visually hidden MathML. Let's see how badly people will freak out.
  19. Actually: all of Wikimedia.
  20. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    May 26 09:06
    @dstorey as far as aria use in HTML goes, the w3c validator tracks http://w3c.github.io/html-aria/ so if update needed to reflect sanity then file an issue https://github.com/w3c/html-aria/issues
  21. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    May 26 09:13

    as far as aria-hidden is concerned ARIA 1.1 does not advise or require use of aria-hidden and ARIA in HTML states

    Note: If an element has a hidden attribute, an aria-hidden attribute is not required.

    http://w3c.github.io/html-aria/#attr-hidden
    Same goes for display:none

  22. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 26 09:15
    Bongiorno
  23. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 26 09:16
    @MIchielBijl hey. Missed you on call w/ Zehe
  24. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 26 09:49
    Ah crap.
  25. Was asleep
  26. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 26 09:49
    We figured
  27. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 26 09:49
    Forgot to set alarm.
  28. How was it?
  29. Did anyone make minutes :P
  30. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 26 09:52
    Naah
  31. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 26 10:00
    Was up doing audit till 2.
  32. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 26 10:00
    Bleh
  33. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 26 10:00
    So, yeah, that wasn't going to work :P
  34. It's okay, I like auditing.
  35. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 26 10:01
    Was up till 1:30, then my fire alarm pager went off at 7:15 9_9
  36. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 26 10:01
    Nice.
  37. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 26 10:08
    jkva: will you write up findings?
  38. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 26 10:08
    Hmm I might
  39. good blog post
  40. It's not all that groundbreaking
  41. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 26 10:19
    Interesting stuff doesn't have to be groundbreaking.
  42. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 26 10:31
    Also I'm auditing a chat window thingy in a bit, so would be very interested ;)
  43. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 26 10:32
    @pkra the blinks I know will rampage
  44. they hate mathml :P
  45. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    May 26 11:19
    @StommePoes right. Also, fewer combinations of AT+browsers will do something (right now it's TeX in attext of IMG which at least does something)
  46. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    May 26 11:31
    Alttext, not attext...
  47. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 26 11:40
    I'll just go write my own AT. With blackjack. And hookers.
  48. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 26 11:41
    [jitendra] What do you think about accessibility of this kind of setup ?
    https://scrnshot.s3.amazonaws.com/Taxi_for_Email_w1b9b.jpg
  49. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 26 11:46
    @jitendra: Bad. Label does not associate with an actual element by its id
  50. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 26 11:47
    [scottohara] ^ right. if anything, ‘your name’ should be a legend to a fieldset containing first/last name
  51. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 26 11:47
    Also the label with class very-important does this as well
  52. You can't click the label to focus the associated element, either
  53. Luckily this is all easy to fix =)
  54. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 26 13:51
    I tested our progressive web app on IE6
  55. It didn't even perform that horrible
  56. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 26 13:57
    Meanwhile, a friend happened to notice an audio CAPTCHA is not working in Firefox, and I go looked at the code and feel the early 2000's all around me
  57. an <embed> tag with .wav files, and apparently these .wav files don't play in firefox anywhere
  58. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 26 13:57
    Oooh do share
  59. !!
  60. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 26 13:57
    FF supports .wav but apparently this either has bad MIME types or wrong container format
  61. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 26 13:58
    Grr I keep forgetting the snazzy name for those audio cues
  62. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 26 13:58
    There are also in the CAPTCHA spans turned into buttons
  63. with role=button and tabindex=0 and the 1990's style inline onClick() functions
  64. earcons
  65. think icons
  66. for ears
  67. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 26 13:58
    thanks!
  68. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 26 13:59
    The validation code for the inputs... brings me back to my very first forms at my very first tech job
  69. kriebels
  70. I see them desperately trying to validate telephone numbers and american ZIP codes
  71. socute
  72. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 26 14:33
    [juryjowns] My googling is coming up short this morning. Does anyone have any resources for implementing accessible social share? Ie - Use Facebook’s Share Dialog? For Twitter? URL that opens in the same tab?
  73. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 26 14:45
    Goodie, there is a new “AT detection” is good discussion on Twitter.
  74. Such fun!
  75. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 26 14:48
    Links Michiel?
  76. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 26 14:49
    Michiel started it with some twitter VO detection
  77. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 26 14:49
    However I still don't think they are making it inaccessible first. I am sure they have valid reasons to want you to have VO on first and THEN twitter
  78. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 26 14:50
    [michiel] StommePoes: it's the only app I know that does this.
  79. [michiel] What makes fucking Twitter so special they need it?
  80. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 26 14:50
    if we don't like the detection, the easy, straightforward solution is to have a message upon startup at all times (or until a cookie remembers the user closed it) stating "if you are using any assistive tech, please ensure it has started before launching this app". Simple. Solves All The Things.
  81. Michiel: do we know anyone at Twitter access we can ask?
  82. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 26 14:52
    Not that I know. Look for someone that recently got fired at another tech company, they usually end up at Twitter.
  83. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 26 14:52
    Well. Guess I know where my next job will be.
  84. I had to google around to figure out WTF symbols in javascript were good for.
  85. Shows how many languages I've never used.
  86. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 26 15:48
    To me I bet they're trying to work around a VO bug, rather than trying to do something strange.
  87. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 26 16:32
    [marcysutton] You could ask @toddkloots
  88. [rustle] Lol, the twitter VO thing is because they have whole chunks of the app that are inaccessible so they disable them on restarting with VO
  89. [rustle] All the experiments go away and moments is just gone
  90. [marcysutton] haha moments
  91. [marcysutton] One of the most hated features on the internet
  92. [marcysutton] I would frankly be happy if it went away
  93. [marcysutton] but I suppose that should be left up to the user...
  94. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 26 16:38
    rustle: that is interesting.
  95. Only reason I have that app installed is because I want to add alt text to my images.
  96. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 26 16:42
    What is moments?
  97. Michiel Bijl
    @MichielBijl
    May 26 16:45
    I'm not sure, we don't have it in the Netherlands.
  98. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 26 16:46
    We have a third-party JavaScript library named that that is just used for formatting dates. I didn't think that's what was meant above though ...
  99. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 26 16:50
    [alexlande] twitter moments: https://twitter.com/i/moments
  100. [alexlande] it’s basically a big display of things that are trending. I’ve only ever opened it accidentally (poo emoji)
  101. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 26 16:51
    oh yeah, that
  102. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 26 17:44
    [jitendra] Is there a single benefit to add title attribute to image tag?
  103. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 26 17:51
    Not that I know of - title is for links.
  104. Actually, I am wrong about that. but I don't know about a benefit.
  105. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 26 17:54
    [jitendra] <img alt=“text” title”text”> <img alt=“” title”text”> <img alt=“text” title”some different text”>
  106. [jitendra] Want to know if title is useful in any of the above case
  107. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 26 17:56
    Only for a tooltip. Doesn't get read out by screenreader
  108. It's only useful to sighted users
  109. And if you need to provide information about the image somehow
  110. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 26 17:57
    [alexlande] to my knowledge, title on images is unnecessary at best and redundant at worst
  111. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 26 17:57
    But I'd use a <p> for that anyways
  112. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 26 17:58
    [jitendra] tooltip will work for mouse based devices only I think
  113. [toddkloots] @marcy Just got in. Let me catch up and reply
  114. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 26 17:58
    @jitendra Yeah but still, if you want to have descriptive text for an image
  115. Use html
  116. A paragraph, probably
  117. Really depends on what you're building
  118. But there's no added value to a title attribute on an image that I can see
  119. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 26 18:01
    [jitendra] some people use to give instructions to users on hover
  120. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 26 18:01
    That only works for mouse and sighted users
  121. Doesn't work for keyboard users, doesn't work for AT
  122. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 26 18:01
    [jitendra] yes
  123. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 26 18:02
    I'd advise against it
  124. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 26 18:02
    The problem of it is, some people get that extra nice instruction but everyone else doesn't, meaning whatever's in the title, you probably have to put outside the image anyway, for all the other people.
  125. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 26 18:02
    [jitendra] title doesn’t pop up with keyboard focus?
  126. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 26 18:02
    Only in IE on Win10
  127. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 26 18:02
    Ah, the cat's out of the bag
  128. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 26 18:02
    and Edge on Win10
  129. I only know this because Patrick Lauke noticed it
  130. So, I DO let developers put titles on icon images (as well as alts) because I hate icons and while only mousers get that info, the other options is that the developer won't add that info anywhere :/
  131. Stupid icons.
  132. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 26 18:03
    [jitendra] so title has no negative side for screen reader users? right?
  133. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 26 18:03
    And there is a group of mouse users who reflexively look for title tooltips.
  134. Jitendra, actually you can configure it
  135. so there is the possibility that for some users, they hear double
  136. alt and title
  137. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 26 18:04
    I prefer to use labels, hide offscreen, bring into view with :focus, :hover
  138. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 26 18:04
    but usually title is turned off to get rid of excess blah blah blah
  139. Yeah I like that too
  140. What jkva does.
  141. If the thing is a focusable, you can offer that text to keyboarders on focus
  142. still miss touchscreen users though.
  143. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 26 18:05
    Yep
  144. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 26 18:05
    Hey jitendra, have you ever tested any screen readers?
  145. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 26 18:05
    It's an ongoing fight with the designer being design-y
  146. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 26 18:05
    I think you're a mac user right?
  147. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 26 18:05
    [jitendra] Yes
  148. [jitendra] Tested what?
  149. [toddkloots] K. I think I'm all caught up. (And thanks @michiel for the mean comments. Always nice when the a11y community supports each other.) So, the question is, why the need for VO detection when starting Twitter?
  150. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 26 18:07
    jitendra: tested/tried using a screen reader.
  151. So you have a Mac, have you used Voice Over?
  152. @toddkloots I assumed it was for the same reasons (though now I can't find, except something Marco said) that I've been told to start my Windows screen readers first, then open a browser
  153. Though Marco said it's only pertinate to JAWS because of something with window heirarchy
  154. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 26 18:09
    [michiel] Mean comment?
  155. [toddkloots] "What makes fucking Twitter so special they need it?"
  156. [toddkloots] Yeah, I have a Mac and use VO. But I thought this discussion was about VO on iOS? and @michiel's Tweet
  157. [michiel] The issue I addressed was on iOS, yes.
  158. [michiel] And it was the first time I actually came across this.
  159. [michiel] Hence the comment.
  160. [toddkloots] Right. Regarding iOS: I'll dig in and get the answer for you
  161. [toddkloots] Is there a different question regarding Windows and JAWS?
  162. [michiel] rustle said there are parts of the app that are inaccessible and then removed when VO is running?
  163. [michiel] Thanks Todd!
  164. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 26 18:14
    "Twitter Moments", sounds like a chocolatey snack
  165. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 26 18:14
    [michiel] I'm just interested in why Twitter feels it needs this.
  166. [michiel] Or why anybody feels they need this really.
  167. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 26 18:15
    Because it knows what's good for you, I'm guessing
  168. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 26 18:15
    [michiel] I don't even know what's good for me.
  169. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 26 18:16
    Some chocolatey Twitter Moments
  170. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 26 18:16
    [michiel] Maybe it's to replace Kodak Moments now that they're bust?
  171. [michiel] toddkloots: you're at Twitter?
  172. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 26 18:17
    Frontend engineer
  173. Anyway this AT detection is dev work, I mean that takes time
  174. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 26 18:17
    [toddkloots] @michiel yes
  175. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    May 26 18:17
    So they must have a good reason
  176. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 26 18:17
    @toddkloots My stuff about VO and Mac were for @jitendra
  177. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 26 18:17
    [michiel] Cool :)
  178. [michiel] StommePoes: which turned out to not be necessary :)
  179. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 26 18:18
    @michiel wut?
  180. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 26 18:19
    [michiel] Marco said you didn't have to turn on NVDA before FF right?
  181. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 26 18:19
    He said it was for JAWS but wherever I had been told to do it, it was for NVDA.
  182. But I can't remember if it was someone here or where I found that-- at the time I was getting slightly different behaviour on some stuff I was testing and someone said "did you start NVDA before or after the browser?"
  183. So now I always start my SR first, which sucks because when I'm switching SRs, IE11 on Win7 is not remembering my open tabs, despite my settings. It will remember them when I start it after shutdown/reboot, but not if I close and open during a sessions.
  184. Prolly a bug in IE.
  185. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 26 18:21
    [michiel] Yeah, JAWS needs to be running before starting FF.
  186. [michiel] From what I remember Marco saying.
  187. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 26 18:29
    And it's not that JAWS doesn't work if you start it later
  188. it just does some buggy things
  189. So I didn't notice for a long time
  190. so I just wondered if Twitter was doing similar
  191. except detecting and telling you.
  192. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 26 18:58
    [toddkloots] @michiel got the bottom of our iOS VO detection. It's there to disable new features that are either in progress or haven't yet been made accessible. Practically speaking the majority of VO users are never prompted as they're already running VO in advance of starting the app.
  193. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 26 19:45
    has anyone here heard of David Berman?
  194. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 26 19:51
    Higher ups here really want to integrate BigBlueButton. The following is their a11y doc http://bigbluebutton.org/accessibility/
  195. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    May 26 20:32
    @toddkloots that would be good as a response to the original tweet too... pointing to this statement.
  196. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 26 20:35
    [toddkloots] Sure, although we have in the past. And we have not received any complaints about that prompt from actual users of VO. Most of the arguing and complaining is from sighted people. So, I'm inclined to just leave it be.
  197. [toddkloots] :)
  198. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 26 20:43
    @toddkloots a wise choice :)
  199. @powrsurg anything with the words "Certified Accessible" on it gives me the heebie jeebies
  200. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 26 20:44
    I hadn't heard of anything like that either
  201. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 26 20:49
    still, kinda sad I've done a lot of work getting most of the site AA (a few plugins are keeping us off that I'm trying to clean up) and then be told they want us to integrate a new third-party major feature that isn't even A level :(
  202. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 26 20:50
    [michiel] toddkloots: we sighties are such basterds ;)
  203. [toddkloots] @michiel I'd go with "passionate"
  204. [michiel] Haha
  205. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 26 20:57
    @powrsurg have you done a sanity test on their demo site? IMO saying it meets section 508 is pushing it.... they only filled in 1194.22 of their VPAT and IMO this is software (flash) so should have filled in 1194.21
  206. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    May 26 21:10
    yeah, I honestly didn't think this was right. But they did just push version 1 and I'd been seeing older builds so it could maybe have been cleaned up since last I saw
  207. but I expect huge problems
  208. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    May 26 21:11
    it worked better than i expected for a flash app - but i have pretty low expectations :)
  209. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    May 26 22:57

    [karlgroves] > anything with the words "Certified Accessible" on it gives me the heebie jeebies

    Ugh. Had a client ask me if Tenon could certify their site.

  210. [karlgroves] Finding a polite way to say “Not a chance” was difficult
  211. [nschonni] Hmm, maybe I should go trademark that. MacDonalds "100% Pure Beef (tm)" style
  212. [karlgroves] >this is software (flash) so should have filled in 1194.21

    That’s sign #1 that whoever filled in the VPAT doesn’t know what they’re doing.