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A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 2nd of June 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 02 05:59
    Good morning Slackers! How are all you folks today?
  2. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 02 07:29
    So alone =(
  3. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 08:48
    [michiel] Morning Job!
  4. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 02 09:01
    Morning Michiel!
  5. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 09:24
    [dean] NL representz. Hello all.
  6. [michiel] Morning Dean
  7. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 02 09:27
    Dean! o/
  8. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 02 09:29
    m0ar Dutchies
  9. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 09:29
    [dean] Nice talk at Amsterdam UX yesterday - http://www.meetup.com/AmsterdamUX/events/229297733/ - might be interesting to present to this meetup group at some point.
  10. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 02 09:30
    DictationBridge is going places! If it can reach 15k, other screen readers besides NVDA can be supported. \o/
  11. @dean yeah!
  12. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 02 09:32
    @dean definitely
  13. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 09:34
    [michiel] I know the title of my next talk: “You don't want to listen to me”, that'll work like magic…
  14. [michiel] No, I still don't know :see_no_evil:
  15. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 02 09:35
    @Michiel you could make it interactive
  16. About "that attitude" and how other participants to the meetup deal with that in their job
  17. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 09:36
    [dean] As sad as this next comment is (and I can’t believe I am typing this) in the UX community we need to make Accessibility sexier
  18. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 02 09:36
    @dean can you elaborate?
  19. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 09:37
    [dean] I remember being at a meetup a year or so ago, and a well known person in the community was talking about speakers coming to an event… when describing a (unnamed speaker) talking about Accessibility, this person was introduced with less gusto, than the speakers talking about interaction, visuals, etc...
  20. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 02 09:37
    Ah, sure
  21. Accessibility isn't sexy. Neither is road asphalting
  22. But it's necessary
  23. I don't understand why design needs to be "sexy" anyway,
  24. That sidelines its intended purpose imho
  25. jkva @jkva preaches to the choir
  26. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 09:40
    [dean] https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/design-meets-disability - Anybody read this?
  27. sophieschoice
    @sophieschoice
    Jun 02 09:40
    @jkva Agreed! usability and accessibility aren´t sexy, but are needed. Administration, filing taxes, creating time tables are not sexy either, but necessary.
  28. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 02 09:41
    I'm not saying an accessible UI cannot be a sexy UI - they're not opposing forces
  29. The methods and content of accessibility are not going to be sexy by themselves, but the end result can still be sexy
  30. For whatever your definition of "sexy"
  31. I mean, back in the day that meant gradients and rounded corners shrug
  32. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 09:42
    [dean] I need to form my thoughts a bit better Job! What I’m basically trying to say is that I think it needs to be talked about in the same gusto as we (designers) talk about visuals, IOT, wearables…etc.
  33. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 02 09:43
    Ah sure
  34. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 09:43
    [michiel] a11y is sexy no? Seeing that switch control a website, hmmm.
  35. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 02 09:43
    sploosh
  36. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 09:44
    [dean] Industrial designers have managed to make glasses sexy, people wear glasses without the prescriptive lens. I just wonder if there’s anything we can take from that.
  37. [dean] mmmmm switch control
  38. [michiel] Glasses are sexy.
  39. [dean] (apologies for my brain dump btw - just throwing it out there) ;)
  40. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 02 09:45
    I'd gladly give an enthusiastic talk about it at some UX meetup. Show a "sexy modal dialog" and show how it's made accessible no problem
  41. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 09:46
    [michiel] Are you saying we need to make crutches sexy too?
  42. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 02 09:46
    The reason I want to get these meetups off the ground is that sort of cross-pollination
  43. Hey! If I ever need crutches
  44. Mine will have skulls and flames
  45. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 09:46
    [michiel] (I almost type crotches, but realised I made a typo)
  46. [michiel] typed*
  47. [michiel] Damnit…
  48. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 02 09:48
    I should have a filter:blur() tattoo near my bad eye
  49. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 09:49
    [dean] Cross-pollination meetups would be great. I think the “sexy modal dialog” may be more suited to the dev audience though ;)
  50. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 02 09:49
    a11y is just a core part of design. No one at an UX meetup is going to jump up and down for "Making contrast work" "Color schemes and a11y"
  51. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 09:49
    [dean] (I do)
  52. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 02 09:50
    No! UX designers must realise how AT works with their design
  53. How can you have the U in UX if you don't know how your U uses the UX
  54. Getting some good quotes for my talk already =)
  55. "Don't X out your U"
  56. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 09:52
    [dean] There’s a lot of data driven companies in Amsterdam, which is worrisome. I’m all for data-influence but the amount of ‘UX’ designers who don’t know how to research, interview, or perform usability tests is scary.
  57. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 02 09:52
    Yeah
  58. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 09:54
    [michiel] We need Justin Timberlake to bring the a11y back.
  59. [michiel] Or Eminem to start Cleanin' Out My DOM.
  60. [michiel] Or Anouk to tell UX'ers R U Kidding Me.
  61. [dean] That’s your day sorted @michiel I’m glad to have facilitated this ;)
  62. [michiel] Haha thumbsup emoji:skin-tone-2:
  63. [michiel] Biz Markie's friend telling us it's Just A Demo.
  64. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 10:00
    [michiel] Katy Perry new hit “I Used Colour Contrast (And I Liked It)”
  65. [michiel] The rock remix of that song is pretty good.
  66. [michiel] Ke$ha - Your ARIA Is My Drug
  67. [dean] Elvis - ARIA lonesome tonight
  68. [michiel] :D
  69. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 02 10:01
    ++
  70. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 10:02
    [dean] The Smiths - Miserable WAI
  71. [michiel] Laura Pausini - Strani Esperienza Utente
  72. [michiel] Linking Park - A Place for My Head Switch
  73. [dean] Joy Division - She’s Lost Switch Control
  74. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 02 10:04
    This way a11y just becomes nerdier, not sexier
  75. stahp
  76. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 10:04
    [michiel] Haha
  77. [katy] I just got alerted because someone said “Katy Perry” (joy/allthethings emoji)
  78. [katy] good morning all
  79. [dean] Morning :)
  80. [michiel] Good morning :sunny:
  81. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 02 10:05
    o/
  82. Hitting an UX company with UX/a11y talk will most likely be the next meetup after june 18th
  83. Hopefully July
  84. "My UX brings the W3C to the yard, and they're like 'this isn't so hard'"
  85. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 10:10
    [michiel] Surely that should be “My a11y brings all the UX to the yard”
  86. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 02 10:11
    Nah, that'd be "My a11y brings all the UX to the yard, and they're like 'this is fucking boring, make it sexy'"
  87. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 10:14
    [michiel] “My UX bring all the a11y to the yard, and they're like ‘hmm, this better than yours’”
  88. [michiel] Paul Simon - You Can Call me A11y
  89. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 02 10:16
    haha
  90. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 10:22
    [dean] I think we should all step away from the keyboard. Reflect on what we’ve done. Come back.
  91. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 10:28
    [michiel] I'm using dictation, does that count?
  92. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 02 10:45
    http://www.instructables.com/id/Hamster-Wheel-Standing-Desk/
  93. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 11:34
    [karlgroves] Wow. That’s shockingly easy to build
  94. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 14:26
    [ellyjones] I saw something amazing yesterday... a site that was doing this: <a href="\#" onclick="return false;"><img ... onclick="theRealOnclickHandler\(\);"></a>, thus totally breaking keyboard navigation of their site
  95. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 14:47
    [marcysutton] ugh
  96. [marcysutton] WHY
  97. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 15:10
    [ellyjones] I can't figure out a single reason why one might do that
  98. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Jun 02 15:19
    bad cut and paste job, or simply ignorance
  99. I would honestly say that 99%+ of the time when you go to use <a href="#"> you're doing something wrong and creating something inaccessible. Most of the remaining times are likely people trying to experiment with things and are making their lives more difficult because reasons
  100. Right now I'm trying to fix up some code using default Drupal 7 code that adds a useless <a href="#"> to make a collapsible fieldset ... which really should be details/summary, but I suspect that was coded up long before details/summary was ever thought up, much less got any browser support
  101. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 15:42
    [ellyjones] @powrsurg: yeah, I've come to think of href="#" as a smell basically
  102. [marcysutton] Last I checked details/summary doesn’t have any semantic information, it is keyboard accessible though...
  103. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 15:55
    [poorgeek] Anyone with JAWS 17 and IE11 have a minute to validate a possible regression for me? http://s.codepen.io/poorgeek/debug/groZLz
  104. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 02 16:17
    and I'm thinking for ours to use buttons
  105. I see <a href="#" inside an example clickable/focusable calendar
  106. but I'm not sure the implications then of states
  107. like, can a button inside a grid be "selected" or is it "pressed" or...
  108. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 02 16:45
    Re design: http://imgur.com/gallery/28pJN
  109. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 02 16:51
    Looks like gitter ate some of my sentences
  110. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Jun 02 18:08
    So I finally started watching Luis Garcia's video from ID24. Not closing <P> and <LI> tags makes me sad (I know it's valid, but it seems too bug-prone to me)
  111. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 18:11
    [michiel] <br> I don't want to think about not closing <p>'s.
  112. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Jun 02 18:12
    block level elements should be closed IMHO
  113. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 18:14
    [michiel] p { display: inline } ;)
  114. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Jun 02 18:34
    Woo, FileZilla's update window had an ad in it. Never seen that in software
  115. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 18:45
    [michiel] It'll come to Samsung TV's sooner rather than later.
  116. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 18:55
    [michiel] tabatkins attribute is no more :( https://twitter.com/MichielBijl/status/738443405605404672
  117. powrsurg @powrsurg feels like he missed the joke
  118. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 19:20
    [mariapena] requesting your tutelage: as a neophyte, walking into web a11y from the IT/QA/Test world, do you* (*anyone, yes you) think http://webaim.org/training/ would be a good way to get acquainted?
  119. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 02 19:23
    @mariapena: WebAIM are good people. An alternative is to read books on the subject (Gustafson, Pickering) and see if it's up your a11ey (forgive the pun). Welcome!
  120. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Jun 02 19:24
    @mariapena it may be beneficial to watch some of the more introductory videos from ID24 ( http://www.inclusivedesign24.org/ )
  121. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 02 19:24
    @mariapena Unless your employer pays for it, then training is a fast way to get up to speed. Otherwise, depending on your situation, books are a cheaper alternative
  122. powrsurg++ yep
  123. Read sitepoint articles, A List Apart articles...
  124. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Jun 02 19:27
    Twitter
  125. I follow some people from here on that. Pretty sure I pissed off @stevefaulkner early on in my a11y work when I pointed out the recommendations for arrow keys didn't make sense for the stated next/previous directions for some feature that was listed on a wiki I just assumed had controls to lock down the editing to only certain people
  126. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 02 19:32
    There is good stuff on youtube too
  127. Personally I just sit here in the channel and bug people with questions
  128. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 19:34
    [mariapena] that’s the thing, I’ve immersed myself and done a lot of self-study but I have a sinking feeling that I’m missing some big parts, concepts, viewpoints, or whatnot. :) thanks for all the responses so far.
  129. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 02 19:36
    @mariapena: Stick around - it's an active community with varying opinions, just keep learning =)
  130. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 19:37
    [marcysutton] Has anyone found a good use for aria-atomic? I haven’t yet worked on an app where it made sense to use. But some real-world information would help me write documentation about it.
  131. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Jun 02 19:39
    I think I used it once in a section that had a character count for a textarea
  132. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Jun 02 19:39
    Yes - I use aria-atomic="true" frequently.
  133. trying to think about the use case
  134. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 19:40
    [marcysutton] I think my confusion is why we have both aria-atomic and aria-relevant
  135. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Jun 02 19:40
    aria-relevant doesn't really work anywhere as far as I can tell
  136. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 19:41
    [marcysutton] even though that’s the one with additions/removals/etc.? aria-atomic only takes values of true or false
  137. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Jun 02 19:41
    default is additions and text.
  138. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 19:41
    [marcysutton] True: "Assistive technologies will present the entire region as a whole."
    False (default): "A change within the region may be processed by the assistive technologies on its own."
  139. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Jun 02 19:41
    that seems to work fine but if i specify removals then nothing different seems to happen
  140. yeah so like the character count example
  141. <div aria-live="polite" aria-atomic="true"><span>40</span> characters remaining</div>
  142. you would update the span with the count but want the whole string to be read as just reading "39" is not meaningful
  143. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 19:43
    [marcysutton] I still don’t get why aria-atomic has much to do with it…that seems more the domain of aria-relevant
  144. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Jun 02 19:44
    what would you specify for aria-relevant? I don't get how that is relevant here
  145. (sorry didn't mean to use relevant in the sentence - that was completely accidental)
  146. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 19:45
    [marcysutton] haha
  147. [marcysutton] they are always mentioned together, i.e. https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/states_and_properties#aria-atomic
  148. [marcysutton] Sounds like a demo is in order to further my understanding!
  149. [michiel] powrsurg: TABindex - TABatkins?
  150. [marcysutton] @mariapena: I felt like I filled a big gap in my accessibility understanding when I attended an ARIA workshop by the WebAIM folks at the CSUN conference a few years ago
  151. [marcysutton] there are webinars for similar things, you might not have to travel anywhere to do it!
  152. [marcysutton] but even with that experience I still have a lot to learn as you can see from my lack of understanding with aria-atomic =D
  153. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 19:57
    [michiel] marcysutton: I would point to http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#aria-atomic
  154. [michiel] Stable is 2 years old.
  155. [marcysutton] Bah
  156. [marcysutton] still doesn’t eliminate confusion
  157. [marcysutton] Specs are hard to follow when you don’t understand the use case.
  158. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Jun 02 19:58
    http://w3c.github.io/aria-practices/#LiveRegions
  159. ??
  160. does the APG help. If it doesn't can you please file an issue about what to fix to make it help
  161. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 19:59
    [marcysutton] That does help!
  162. [michiel] APG to the rescue!
  163. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Jun 02 20:00
    @powrsurg I am not easily pissed off😜
  164. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 20:00
    [michiel] jnurthen: I'm not at next meeting btw.
  165. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Jun 02 20:00
    me niether
  166. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 20:00
    [michiel] Okay, that's no help then :P
  167. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Jun 02 20:00
    lets hope Matt can do it!
  168. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 20:01
    [michiel] Sure he can :)
  169. powrsurg @powrsurg will try harder
  170. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 22:54
    [tyler] kinda addicted to rating these right now: http://www.randoma11y.com
  171. [alexlande] yeah, I just clicked through a whole lot of those :) really fun
  172. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Jun 02 23:03
    I noticed I generally voted up more combinations closer to 4.5:1 than those with much higher ratios
  173. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 02 23:51
    [marcysutton] that is cool!