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A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 16th of June 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. Thierry Koblentz
    @thierryk
    Jun 16 00:50

    Hi All,
    I have a Q:
    Is it true that it is best practice to convey the same UI to all users? For example to use role="tabpanel" on "tab panels" even though it forces SR users to create a mental model that is much more complex than necessary (think of simple headings/divs). And if yes, is that because 2 different persons could be discussing their experience and those would need to be somehow “similar”? Or is there something else I am missing?

    But then what about UI patterns that are responsive? 2 different people could have 2 different experiences simply because their viewport may not be of the same width… I can also think of a common pattern that does not follow “the same experience for all” principle: I’m thinking of skip links that are only revealed to keyboard users… I never heard anybody complain that these links should be accessible to all.

    Any discussion about this you could point me too? I’d really like to find out if this is considered good practice or best practice, and of course the whole rational attached to it.
    Thanks!

  2. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 01:56
    [jv] Is there any accessibility Linter?
  3. [jv] like JS lint, Style lint.
  4. [jv] i found this https://github.com/mpezzi/gulp-a11y/blob/master/README.md
  5. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 02:07
    [karlgroves] √
  6. [karlgroves] https://tenon.io/getcode.php
  7. [jv] Is tenon a linter, didnt know that. Thanks
  8. [karlgroves] Well, not really. I think of it more like an ecosystem build around a suite of pre-written unit tests.
  9. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 02:12
    [karlgroves] Linting is sort of like static code analysis, right? So in the case of something like CSS linting or HTML linting, etc. they look for code constructs that are likely to result in bugs, but they don’t check for anything more deep than that
  10. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 03:09
    [jv] yes
  11. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 05:31
    [nathanhammond] @jv You're looking for ember-a11y-testing
  12. [nathanhammond] Whoops. Just realized that this is not the Ember community slack. :p
  13. [nathanhammond] We basically don't believe that static linting is good enough in our use cases and defer to things like axe-core and quail.
  14. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 06:47
    [michiel] thierryk: http://w3c.github.io/aria-practices/
  15. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 16 07:02
    cssday.nl day 1 with @adactio speaking first! https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/IK5KSrZe/IMG_20160616_090036070.jpg
  16. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 08:13
    [michiel] alt=Jeremy Keith on stage at CSS Day as seen from the crowd. CSS Day intro slide is projected behind him.
  17. [una] @michiel: hi — im traveling tight now :p
  18. [michiel] Do you mean right now? Or is it just me being unaware of the phrase “traveling tight now” :P
  19. [michiel] Anyway, can you still make it to role=drinks on Saturday?
  20. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 08:23
    [michiel] @the magnificent una.
  21. [una] oops! *right
  22. [una] I dont think I can :\ flying out that day
  23. [michiel] Ahw :( Well, the event is from 14:00-17:00 with talks in the 14:30-16:00. So if you do have some time (and want to come of course) you can always drop by.
  24. [michiel] lures Una with free whisky.
  25. [michiel] (that jkva will bring)
  26. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 16 09:12
    It'll end up that ~50 people signed up but only 10 show up :P
  27. so goes these things
  28. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 09:13
    [michiel] Yeap, well, more beer for us!
  29. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Jun 16 09:16
    who cares, it'll be fun anywhow
  30. i get to wind @StommePoes up in person ;-)
  31. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 16 09:19
    Let's have a drinking contest
  32. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 09:20
    [michiel] there will also be a live slapping contest
  33. [michiel] Or maybe not a contest as such.
  34. [michiel] It's really just Steve knocking me out :P
  35. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 16 09:20
    There will be a live demonstration of Murphey's Law
  36. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 09:21
    [michiel] Aren't you doing dictation bridge?
  37. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 16 09:21
    I will attempt DictationBridge.
  38. Worked pretty ok on vacation.
  39. But Damien Conway says "never do live demos"
  40. :P
  41. some svg people coming, someone should lightning about svg
  42. Actually found Amelia's proposal and plan to have it read before Sat
  43. https://www.w3.org/wiki/SVG_Accessibility/ARIA_roles_for_charts
  44. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 09:23
    [michiel] Isn't Amelia SVG queen?
  45. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 16 09:23
    one of them
  46. there are so many SVG queens it seems, don't forget Sara Souidan
  47. and there's an SVGeesus
  48. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Jun 16 09:24
    not much drinking for me, I have a delicate constitution and am aged
  49. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 16 09:24
    like the whisky we
  50. we'll bring
  51. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 09:25
    [michiel] Our whisky isn't Australian though.
  52. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 16 09:25
    I dunno, I don't tend to match "delicate constitution and aged" with Oz
  53. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 09:26
    [michiel] stevefaulkner: how long have you been in England?
  54. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Jun 16 09:48
    this time 10 years, i also lived in UK from when i was 4-10 years old
  55. and for a year or 2 at end of the century

  56. "delicate constitution and aged" with Oz

    too much drinking at an earlier time is the cause

  57. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 12:25
    [michiel] Ugh, I'm now apologising for adding alt text -.-
  58. [michiel] I'll get of Twitter for today and let other people fix it.
  59. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Jun 16 13:10
    why would you need to apologies for adding alt text?
  60. and why get off. I've already had one Twitter wars today :p
  61. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 13:20
    [michiel] Because apparently it is bad sport to add alt text to other peoples tweets.
  62. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Jun 16 13:26
    People need to get over themselves
  63. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 13:31

    [karlgroves] > I've already had one Twitter wars today :p

    Oh, you too huh? ;)

  64. powrsurg @powrsurg agreed with ppk's "If you can't do without tools you're not a web developer" slide from CSS Day
  65. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 13:36
    [michiel] Haha, beautiful.
  66. [michiel] You've both had wars on the same subject. Just opposite ends :P
  67. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Jun 16 13:39
    yes!
  68. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 13:39
    [michiel] So how did you connect to this here channel Brian?
  69. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Jun 16 13:40
    Steve made a tweet about it. I knew company (who I was new too at the time) had issues with a11y so I was trying to learn more to fix stuff up. Came here and learned.
  70. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 13:41
    [michiel] I meant, are you on a computer, a phone?
  71. [michiel] (a tool is what I'm getting at) :P
  72. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Jun 16 13:41
    Oh. I'm on a computer. And that wasn't the point of PPKs tweet
  73. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 13:41
    [michiel] But I know what PPK meant—too much tools are bad—which I agree with. His slide is just poorly worded.
  74. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Jun 16 13:42
    his slide was meant to spark a conversation
  75. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 13:42
    [michiel] His slide is terrible out of context.
  76. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Jun 16 13:42
    I had people come at me saying that they were node devs and that they should be still considered devs even though they can't do stuff without certain packages.
  77. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 13:42
    [deborah_kaplan] gah, michiel, I'm sorry.
  78. [deborah_kaplan] I got blocked last night by a person for agreeing with them. Twitter is weird.
  79. [michiel] Agreed Deborah, Twitter is weird.
  80. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 13:51
    [karlgroves] The whole premise is absolutely preposterous.
  81. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 16 13:52
    I don't see why people don't just mute. Why do they care if I can still read their tweets?
  82. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 13:52
    [karlgroves] If you don’t use SGML you’re not a real developer.
  83. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 16 13:54
    I'm allergic to many types of SGML, is that okay?
  84. I'm also a bit sensitive to XML unless it's generated (and read) by a tool. Ick.
  85. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 13:55

    [karlgroves] > I'm also a bit sensitive to XML unless it's generated (and read) by a tool. Ick.

    Tools are bad

  86. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Jun 16 13:55
    I do believe you should know how to walk before you can run. Jumping in to using tools before you know the basics is harmful.
  87. I'm not saying they should never be used, but people throwing stuff out there without knowing what is what's going on is also why most websites have poor accessibility
  88. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 13:57
    [karlgroves] IDK about “harmful”.
    I spend hours literally every day of my life looking at other people’s code. Tools or not the code often sucks. Inaccessible, insecure, unusable, poor-performing sites are created every day and it doesn’t matter whether a “tool” was used or not.
  89. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 16 13:59
    Well
  90. So this Java engineer wanted to learn frontend code. Great!
  91. Bad news: someone decided we would do everything in Sass.
  92. That's the worst place to learn CSS. Felt sorry for her, told here where she could learn CSS basics.
  93. I still have HTML elements in our SDK with classes on them that do nothing and are only listed to give some sass name to something else which also does nothing.
  94. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 14:00

    [karlgroves] Here’s from PPK’s own site

    <img src="/pix/homepage_tables.gif" alt="Image of browser compatibility tables" title="Browser Compatibility Tables”>

    A supposed “guru"

  95. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Jun 16 14:00
    Oh, I'm saying if you use tools you're bad, but not being able to do it without a tool means you can't fix it if you know it
  96. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 16 14:01
    PPK's just a guy, who knows a lot about mobile and browser testing.
  97. People look up to him, he says what he thinks. I don't think he ever said his code was perfect.
  98. I've used his Quirksmode site for years
  99. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Jun 16 14:02
    certain testing. He once asked for devs to suggest something for him to research and I told him to look at WYSIWYG stuff and he backed away
  100. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 16 14:02
    What, testing WYSIWYG output?
  101. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Jun 16 14:04
    basically saying look for compatibility problems when you use contentEditable or designMode. Look into the various issues with document.execcommand
  102. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 14:04

    [karlgroves] >but not being able to do it without a tool means you can't fix it if you know it

    Right. And knowing about it allows you to wield it more powerfully.

  103. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Jun 16 14:05
    Back in the day I maintained my own editor. The amount of browser compatibility issues there was legion. I literally once got Firefox to make a <br> element have a text child node
  104. Right, so why is it bad to challenge devs to learn more about the craft so they can build better sites a bad thing? I saw the slide in question a challenge for devs to re-evaluate themselves and see what they can do
  105. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 14:09
    [karlgroves] Because it says if you use tools you’re not a real web developer. That’s a) very wrong and b) shames people unjustly
  106. [deborah_kaplan] right!
  107. [deborah_kaplan] in my day we wrote everything with 1s and 0s
  108. [deborah_kaplan] and we didn't have 1s
  109. [deborah_kaplan] we had to use a lowercase L
  110. [deborah_kaplan] etc.
  111. [karlgroves] Here’s my statement: if you don’t use tools you’re not a real web developer. I use JSHint on every project I have that uses JS because I don’t want boneheaded syntax mistakes - that should have been caught earlier - messing up my sites
  112. [karlgroves] I unit test my JS/ Node/ PHP code to make sure things work
  113. [deborah_kaplan] Though the inverse is you have to be smart about using tools. If you rely on JSHint -- or automated tests, or tenon -- to catch every mistake, it's like thinking you can turn in your dissertation relying on spellchecker without proofreading.
  114. [karlgroves] I use Ansible/ Packer/ Terraform and Travis to manage automated provision, build, deploy across different environments
  115. [karlgroves] @deborah_kaplan: Correct. Its about using the right tool for the right things at the right time.
  116. [deborah_kaplan] When I was teaching I always said 1. spellchecker is obviously insufficient. 2. If you're not running a spellchecker why are you turning it in and wasting my time?
  117. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Jun 16 14:20
    It didn't say if you use tools you're not a real web developer, it says if you can't do it without it you're not. There is a distinction
  118. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 14:23
    [karlgroves] I wasn’t there but based on the Twitter traffic it has a very elitist, holier-than-thou feeling to it.
  119. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Jun 16 14:23
    When I've taught people web dev those that tried to jump into jQuery before learning any JS first struggled. Those that got the fundamentals of JS first did well
  120. PPK did say a while back he is looking to spark discussion and knew he was going to make people mad. Stuff like this gets it. Reading through his slides the comment works and I see what he is getting at.
  121. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 14:26
    [karlgroves] Is that a jQuery problem? It is a JS Library. Of course knowing the fundamentals of JS is better
  122. [deborah_kaplan] I will agree knowing fundamentals
  123. [karlgroves] My point is that ignorance is its own problem. Use of a specific tool/library/framework, etc. doesn’t make a bad developer worse anymore than it makes a good developer better.
  124. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Jun 16 14:30
    Right. Those with the fundamentals did better. Because they could do it they ended up as better devs. But they ended up using tools for projects
  125. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 14:33
    [karlgroves] Then can we agree that blanket admonitions against tools is not a solution to the problem?
  126. [deborah_kaplan] ++
  127. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Jun 16 14:39
    And he wasn't saying using frameworks and such was bad. Overusing them is the actual problem. And the slide sparking the controversy has people ignoring the "can't do without" and using it with "use"
  128. sorry, got pulled into a phone conversation before hitting enter
  129. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 14:40
    [karlgroves] Somehow this was all followed up with comments about real carpenters not using nail guns which is laughably false and added to the idea that “tools" === “bad"
  130. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Jun 16 14:41
    well, the whole thing is a "no true Scotsman" fallacy
  131. and people on the net always seem to ignore context in everything
  132. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 14:55
    [garcialo] I say you should never use tools, but say you do. Then when you mess up, just complain about how broken the tools are.
  133. [garcialo] Or better yet, do the opposite, only ever use tools and say you don’t. You’ll have to avoid anyone that knows what they’re doing though, but there are probably tools that can help you avoid those people.
  134. [karlgroves] But only if you wear a puffy coat
  135. [scottohara] you’re not a real developer without wearing a puffy coat?
  136. [scottohara] guess i’ll show myself out
  137. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 15:00
    [michiel] garcialo: that's how I work. I tell everyone I use you to write my reports, then, when they turn out crappy, I just blame you.
  138. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Jun 16 15:01
    Do like the guy in the news that automated his entire job and then got fired after 6 years and realized he forgot how to program
  139. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 15:09
    [dean] http://www.theglobeandmail.com/technology/how-a-model-employee-got-away-with-outsourcing-his-software-job-to-china/article7409256/
  140. Thierry Koblentz
    @thierryk
    Jun 16 15:47
    @michiel Thanks!
  141. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 15:49
    [michiel] thumbsup emoji
  142. [garcialo] @michiel: Woah! That's what I've been doing as well!
  143. [michiel] Well, thanks! Seems I'm better off :P
  144. [garcialo] Well, only for some things.
  145. [garcialo] @karlgroves: puffy coats for life..and the cold
  146. [michiel] Yeah I'd better cool down, or you might not give me that drink next CSUN.
  147. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 16:01
    [garcialo] it doesn't have to be at CSUN
  148. [garcialo] you visiting the California Bay Area any time soon?
  149. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 16 16:01
    only if MikeP has a reason to send him there :P
  150. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 16:07
    [michiel] yeah don't think so :P
  151. [michiel] garcialo: you're welcome to stay over in the UK :)
  152. [garcialo] You're in the UK? I thought you were in...not the UK.
  153. [michiel] I'm in the Dutchylands.
  154. [michiel] But will be moving pretty soon.
  155. [michiel] And I'm guessing you're not coming over in the next few weeks?
  156. [garcialo] oh wow, to the UK?
  157. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 16:12
    [michiel] yeah I know :(
  158. [michiel] I feel so welcome there.
  159. [garcialo] well, one of the companies we own that happens to be in London reached out to us for training, but one of my coworkers has already planned a family trip to the UK so I think he's going to be the one doing it. =(
  160. [garcialo] also, are all women from Dutchylands "Dutchesses?"
  161. [michiel] I don't know any Dutch women.
  162. [michiel] But that could very well be.
  163. [garcialo] oh, is that one of the places that has only men and you have to like pair up with another place with only women?
  164. [michiel] Are all ‘Muricans cowgirls?
  165. [michiel] No, we mostly pair up with other men.
  166. [garcialo] Pretty much
  167. [garcialo] Well, I meant for procreative purposes
  168. [michiel] Ah, we import from Germany and France.
  169. [michiel] And sometimes US.
  170. [garcialo] nice
  171. [michiel] StommePoes can tell you more about that.
  172. [garcialo] I'll make sure and ask
  173. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 16 16:34
    Is it normal that when saving a local webpage that IE only displays the HTML, nothing else?
  174. Can't find anything about it on the interwebs without lots of questions about live web pages.
  175. and IE7 :P
  176. Man I don't dare try dragon in here...
  177. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 16:36
    [karlgroves] “Is it normal that … IE…” No. ;)
  178. [karlgroves] On a serious note, I’ve never seen that though.
  179. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 16 16:36
    Good to know.
  180. I've never saved a web page locally on Windows before.
  181. Only Linux.
  182. So I have no idea what's normal in the Windows world.
  183. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 16:37
    [karlgroves] IIRC, IE will save the file and all its assets. So it should work (and eff up the markup) when you re-open it
  184. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 16 16:41
    ok, that gives me a better place to start.
  185. If I have to, I'll use Dragon in FF :P
  186. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 17:07
    [garcialo] when saving the page in Windows, you're usually given the option of HTML Only and HTML (Complete) or something similar
  187. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 16 17:07
    I'm doing save as Web Page, though I did try All Files.
  188. Opera, Chrome, and Firefox display the local page with all assets. I'm looking if there's some weirdo security setting in IE.
  189. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 16 18:56
    [karlgroves] Might be, esp if there’s JS involved. Check in IE’s devtools to see if anything’s getting blocked