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A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 24th of June 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 24 08:22
    [michiel] Dark day for accessibility in the UK.
  2. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    Jun 24 08:23
    How is that?
  3. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 24 08:24
    [michiel] They're leaving the EU.
  4. [michiel] EU has lots of good laws for persons with disabilities :)
  5. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    Jun 24 08:24
    Ah, gotcha.
  6. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 24 08:24
    [michiel] It's getting more on the 14th of July.
  7. [michiel] And for now, the UK has to still implement those.
  8. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    Jun 24 08:24
    I was thinking it was something specific to a11y that had happene
  9. happened*
  10. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 24 08:24
    [michiel] Just, y'know, that's going to change.
  11. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    Jun 24 08:24
    Yeah
  12. Okay, sleep time for me. Nighty
  13. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 24 08:29
    [michiel] Night night
  14. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 24 08:29
    Sleep well @garcialo
  15. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 24 08:33
    [michiel] has added a new todo to his list of things after I move to the UK: #Leave
  16. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 24 08:37
    Just move to Cornwall]
  17. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 24 08:44
    [michiel] I must follow my precious :P
  18. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 24 08:45
    She's French, and you know how the UK feels about foreigners at the moment.
  19. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 24 08:47
    @kylegach even the blind can benefit from show-password, you ought to be able to letter-by-letter check that you typed in what you thought you typed in. Not sure how you do that with input type=password though. What are you using for the input?
  20. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 24 09:02
    [jakecross] Morning all! I have a span that is being picked up by the screen reader... and I would like it to be ignored. I've gone through the rules I know and set aria-hidden to true, role to presentation and an empty alt tag for safe measure... SuperNova is still reading the span :S
  21. [michiel] StommePoes: set it to type=text…
  22. [michiel] What is in the span?
  23. [jakecross] https://pastee.org/cag5z
  24. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 24 09:09
    [michiel] Okay, first off puts alt tag specialist hat on, the alt doesn't have an affect if it's not on an img element.
  25. [michiel] Even with role=img, it won't have an effect.
  26. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 24 09:09
    tag?!
  27. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 24 09:09
    [michiel] Crap
  28. [michiel] -.-
  29. jkva @jkva puts on asshole hat
  30. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 24 09:09
    [michiel] gets more coffee
  31. [michiel] rewinds
  32. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 24 09:10
    I shudder to think what an asshole hat would look like
  33. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 24 09:10
    [michiel] Okay, first off puts alt attribute specialist hat on, the alt attribute doesn't affect elements other than the img element.
  34. [michiel] You have to be narrow minded to wear it Job ;)
  35. [jakecross] I had that feeling, but added it as a "well role and aria-hidden aren't working... let's add more!"
  36. [michiel] jakecross: could you post actual output? I'm interested to what {{prop.ThisGetsRead}} turns into.
  37. [michiel] “More boosters!”—Scott Manley
  38. [michiel] I'll try to go through the code bit by bit :)
  39. [michiel] 100101110100111101010101011101000
  40. [michiel] :D
  41. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 24 09:16
    [jakecross] https://pastee.org/4v2jv
  42. [michiel] I do have some questions first: what is the purpose of the link (as it has an empty href attribute).
  43. [jakecross] That is with alt removed from the markup
  44. [michiel] Maybe that gets populated by Angular, still, what is the purpose of the thing?
  45. [michiel] The a element that is.
  46. [michiel] (with class of home)

  47. [jakecross] Hard for me to say. I am working through checking what "bonkers" things happen with another teams application when using SuperNova

    It may be something they will populate later when it goes to the client... or it may be incorrect. If you think it could be causing the issue, I will certainly ask them.

  48. [michiel] Okay, then I'll try to just go through the code.
  49. [michiel] First off, role=presentation basically removes an elements semantics. So that anchor, is now no longer a link, it's essentially a div.
  50. [michiel] aria-hidden=true removes it from the accessibility tree; any AT should ignore it. Why you would want to remove a link AT is beyond me (not that it is really link, but y'know).
  51. [michiel] As said the alt attribute on the link does nothing.
  52. [michiel] The title attribute is not read because the thing has aria-hidden on it.
  53. [michiel] Same goes for the img that is inside the anchor.
  54. [michiel] That image is no longer an image as far as UA is concerned, it has role=presentation
  55. [michiel] It's also hidden because of aria-hidden.
  56. [michiel] Which is all moot because an empty alt will hide it from AT too.
  57. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 24 09:21
    [michiel] As for the span, a span has no semantics; role=presentation is meaningless here.
  58. [michiel] alt attribute doesn't do anything.
  59. [michiel] aria-hidden of true should hide it from AT (that have that implemented anyway)
  60. [michiel] Does that make sense?

  61. [jakecross] I have (as you have been typing) removed all the redundant markup and the parts that were working as I wanted, continue to do so - so thanks for that! :)

    That span is still being read with any combination of "things" I have tried to get it to be hidden. It may be something that SuperNova doesn't care about and reads it anyway... so that may take some looking in to.

  62. [jakecross] But yes, that makes sense, thanks
  63. [michiel] Well, my ultimate point is, why must the span be hidden?
  64. [michiel] Does it have visible text in it?
  65. [michiel] If it has visible text it should bread, no?

  66. [jakecross] Do you know what... that is something I haven't questioned but you are spot on. The link does appear... later.

    At this point, it's in the markup but not visible to the user (who can see the screen)

  67. [jakecross] It becomes visible later when the ng-view changes.
  68. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 24 09:26
    [michiel] Okay, well, than it should have display: none; or visibility: hiddden;
  69. [michiel] That will hide it from the browser and AT.
  70. [michiel] :)
  71. [jakecross] I guess they don't want t a link to "home" to be there, when the user is on the home "page" already.
  72. [jakecross] got it!
  73. [jakecross] I will tell them to change that as it will more than likely involve some dynamic changes based on their angular gubbins
  74. [michiel] Ah, if that's the case, you might want to read up on heydon's excellent article here: http://www.heydonworks.com/article/the-accessible-current-page-link-conundrum
  75. [michiel] If you're not sick of the subject after that you could follow it with my reply article: http://www.michielbijl.nl/2014/09/23/the-current-page-conundrum/#main

  76. [jakecross] This is all quite interesting stuff!

    I'm usually working on NodeJS so this front end stuff is all a little crazy to me. Interesting... but crazy.

  77. [michiel] Hehe, I think jkva can relate ;)
  78. [jakecross] I think he's been engulfed by his asshole hat :|
  79. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 24 09:31
    [michiel] Haha
  80. [heydon] Thanks, Michiel. I recommend turning the ‘current’ page link into a same-page link, pointed to the <main id=“main”>, like <a href=“\#main”>this page</a>. This triggers AT to announce “this page, same page link” so the user gets a skip mechanism and info that tells them the link goes inside the current page.
  81. [michiel] That's a good one. It's been a while since I read it, is that final outcome of the article? Or did you put that in a follow up?
  82. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 24 09:35
    NodeJS? I can't relate at all :P
  83. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 24 09:35
    [jakecross] AttributeJS?
  84. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 24 09:35
    Haven't written Node in a couple of years
  85. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 24 09:36
    [jakecross] I am looking into Elixir now. It just "feels right" to me, but it's early days.
  86. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 24 09:36
    @jakecross: have you played with phoenix?
  87. I have some Perl code for you if you want ti
  88. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 24 09:36
    [jakecross] Still on Elixir. I have the pragmatic bookshelf book on Phoenix ready to go though
  89. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 24 09:37
    Nice
  90. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 24 09:37
    [michiel] jkva: I meant programming to front-end ;)
  91. [jakecross] I will work through "Programming Elixir" and then have to choose between Phoenix and Meta-programming in Elixir
  92. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 24 09:39
    I attended an Elixir meetup a while ago, was quite impressed. I've used Erlang but Elixir seems a nice subset for getting things done
  93. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 24 09:45
    http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2462612/microsoft-edge-just-got-served-by-opera-and-now-its-on
  94. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Jun 24 09:49
    Hey, I'm looking for some design inspiration. Does anybody know a good example of accessible footnote markers, especially with an eye on mobile. The Print-style superscript approach makes things rather small and poor for tapping so I'm wondering if anyone has seen design examples that don't look too wild but are more accessible.
  95. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 24 09:53
    @pkra here's a nice article by Hugo, https://www.sitepoint.com/accessible-footnotes-css/ I would just make them larger on smaller viewports
  96. So visually you still know it's a footnote, just easier to hit
  97. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Jun 24 09:53
    Thanks @jkva. I should've mentioned that article.
  98. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 24 09:53
    Ah, you saw it then =)
  99. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Jun 24 09:54
    :)
  100. yes.
  101. I don't like the superscript style. And sup's are hard to tweak, generally speaking (ever noticed how there's no css-sup/superscript? I mean we even have display:table etc.)
  102. Anyway.
  103. I also found this one https://wet-boew.github.io/v4.0-ci/demos/footnotes/footnotes-en.html
  104. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 24 09:55
    [michiel] +1 to Hugo's solution
  105. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Jun 24 09:56
    Also, I'm not worried about the accessibility of the footnote linking (where Hugo's is great).
  106. That's completely separate in my case anyway.
  107. Just the visual side of those links.
  108. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 24 09:57
    @pkra You're not forced to use superscript, you can just make them a span and style them however you want
  109. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Jun 24 09:57
    Tell my clients that ;-)
  110. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 24 09:57
    I would make them at least as large as the text itself, perhaps even a bit bigger
  111. Ah, this is for clients. Woops.
  112. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 24 09:57
    [michiel] pkra: how do you mean no style for superscript? http://codepen.io/anon/pen/zBNBmq
  113. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Jun 24 09:58
    :D
  114. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 24 09:58
    Are they British clients? ;)
  115. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 24 09:58
    [michiel] <br>exit?
  116. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Jun 24 09:58
    @michiel: yes. but that's about it. You can't control placement beyond this.
  117. hehe. No.
  118. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 24 09:58
    [michiel] Meh, fair enough.
  119. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Jun 24 10:01
    Thanks, folks. I guess I actually have to think for myself then :D
  120. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 24 10:01
    [michiel] Sorry, bit brain dead this morning.
  121. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Jun 24 10:02
    :)
  122. I hear NLexit is next?
  123. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 24 10:03
    Never!
  124. That would be the most braindead thing to do
  125. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Jun 24 10:06
    Let's start a new initiative: Reunification of Francia! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francia
  126. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 24 10:07
    Nah, just need another Battle of Medway to get the Brits to fall in line
  127. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Jun 24 10:10
    Well, let's see how the Euro goes.
  128. (football that is)
  129. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jun 24 10:12
    :(
  130. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 24 10:16
    [jakecross] Living in my own little world, where everyone is Slack is also British
  131. [michiel] Re euro: https://twitter.com/ValentinoEvilC/status/746282163541270529
  132. [jakecross] Hooligans and/or poor play will do that for us.
  133. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 24 11:05
    A united Ireland would be epic.
  134. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 24 11:15
    [michiel] As Jimmy Carr ones put it: “I believe in one island!”
  135. [michiel] …“Under British rule…”
  136. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 24 13:27
    @powrsurg so Sina said you can change the volumes of the aria-live captions vs the video for if you want to hear them more than the video sounds
  137. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Jun 24 13:28
    Say what?
  138. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Jun 24 13:40
    With the video player we have the captions are created via JS in a div with aria-live="assertive" and aria-atomic="true". VO and NVDA do not currently read them out. When we had a parent div for the entire video to also have aria-live="assertive" VO stuttered when trying to read it.
  139. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 24 14:15
    [bo.campbell] http://fortune.com/2016/06/23/amazon-new-kindle-accessibility-blind/
  140. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    Jun 24 15:21
    Does anyone (cough cough @stevefaulkner) know how to use the Colour Contrast Analyser color picker on Mac OS using only keyboard?
  141. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Jun 24 15:22
    I have no idea. Will ask Cedric who built it :-)
  142. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    Jun 24 15:22
    You're supposed to know everything.
  143. Never meet your heroes.
  144. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Jun 24 15:49
    http://codepen.io/sethabbott/pen/FtuLz So besides the color contrast, using links for buttons, and the animation potentially making people sick, are there any other a11y issues with this?
  145. and a screen reader reading the spinner's text with the link ...
  146. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Jun 24 15:55
    and tabbing not making it activate the spin ...
  147. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 24 16:06
    [michiel] garcialo: enable mouse keys to move mouse with keyboard.
  148. [michiel] All the other stuff is built with default OS X controls. And can be reacher with the tab key.
  149. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    Jun 24 16:06
    Seriously? :( That's unfortunate.
  150. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 24 16:06
    [michiel] If you find that you can't reach them, then maybe you need to enable “All controls” in the keyboard settings.
  151. [michiel] Well, the picker is bind to the mouse as far as I know.
  152. [michiel] You can enable an option to toggle mouse keys by pressing option five times.
  153. [michiel] That should make it easier :)
  154. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Jun 24 16:39
    /me this is so not a good day - finding it really hard to concentrate on work
  155. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 24 16:41
    [michiel] Same here.
  156. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Jun 24 16:43
    I'm even thinking about filing for US citizenship.... not sure I want to be part of my country any more. I've never even really considered it before.
  157. although i think i might wait till after November for that.
  158. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 24 16:44
    [michiel] Yeah I'd wait a bit.
  159. [michiel] I hope this doesn't affect my three year stint in the UK.
  160. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Jun 24 17:03
    Hope you are getting paid in Euros
  161. if you are you just got a raise :)
  162. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 24 17:07
    [michiel] Yeah I asked to be paid in pounds yesterday, but might put that off for a bit :P
  163. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    Jun 24 17:07
    Hah
  164. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 24 17:10
    [michiel] alt=Patrick re-opens an issue on GitHub because “there may be different views”. Henny responds with the question if Patrick can re-open the referendum as well. https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/2o1fDdiH/Screen%20Shot%202016-06-24%20at%2019.07.39.png
  165. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 24 21:28
    @jnurthen that's the last place you want citizenship
  166. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Jun 24 21:29
    I'd have both still.... just had never even considered it before.
  167. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 24 21:29
    You'll get citizenship, Trump gets elected, then everyone flees to ... the netherlands
  168. I've got dual
  169. means I pay/file taxes for two countries every year
  170. sucks
  171. thinking of renouncing
  172. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Jun 24 21:30
    Even without citizenship i still have to file taxes in the US even if i move
  173. I have been here long enough that they consider me a tax resident now
  174. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 24 21:31
    yeah but if you have that US citizenship you can move to china, your whole family, live there, work there, doesn't matter, die there... still file US taxes
  175. for zero reason
  176. it's the only country to do it besides Eritrea, which the US silly yelled at Eritrea for doing it
  177. oh and apparnelty north korea does it too but who counts them
  178. And if you have a child in th US
  179. fuck
  180. I know a guy, American by birth, met a French woman, had a kid... that kid has an American parent and is therefore automagically american
  181. she can be 18, speak French, have never been in the States, and required to start filing US taxes
  182. if she ever then makes the mistake of visiting the states the IRS could say "you owe us a file for x years you didn't file" and banks in France could deny her services if they don't want to comply with FATCA
  183. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Jun 24 21:33
    do you actually have to pay US taxes or just file them?
  184. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 24 21:33
    so instead she can pay 2k to remove her citizenship
  185. currently I don't earn enough to pay both
  186. but if I earn more than ~90k then I would have to
  187. but I hate the filing
  188. So I'm considering paying 2k in US dollars to never have to file US taxes again
  189. oh and
  190. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Jun 24 21:34
    really - wow - i thought rates were theoretically higher in Europe so the tax treaties covered it
  191. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jun 24 21:34
    I have to file other papers with teh Treasury
  192. they need to know all accounts with my name
  193. the details of my non-american spouse
  194. which I refuse to give
  195. fuck them. But it's to stop US tax cheats.
  196. So I have to list every account I have
  197. and ther are certain pensions I cannot have
  198. if they have any US funds int them
  199. even general funds that have a US fund in them
  200. which is not uncommon in European pension plans
  201. and for all this, I can't vote.
  202. So, meh.
  203. I have to go to bed, but look into the cost of removing citizenship and having it, before trying to GET it.
  204. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Jun 24 21:40
    yeah - thanks
  205. sorry - someone just rang the doorbell!
  206. It will certainly be a considered decision
  207. (and I will wait until November - cause if that goes wrong we are moving to the Netherlands :) )
  208. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 24 22:01
    [kate] Do you guys say out loud "ally" or "a-eleven-y" or just "accessibility"?
  209. [alexlande] I say “ally”, but I hear “a-eleven-y” a lot
  210. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Jun 24 22:06
    I say a-eleven-y
  211. although normally just say accessibility
  212. just like i18n
  213. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 24 22:07
    [alexlande] yeah, I only say one of the above if I’m specifically referring to something with “a11y” in the name, usually
  214. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    Jun 24 22:07
    Ay-leventy-y
  215. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 24 22:22
    [michiel] When I read it in my mind I say alley, because that's how I became an alley cat.
  216. [michiel] In all other instances I'll say accessibility.
  217. [alexlande] I think I don’t think of it as “a-eleven-y” because for a long time I didn’t realize that the 11 signified the number of letters and that it was an i18n/l10n kind of thing. I interpreted it as a sort of weird ironic pun, like “this word looks like ally, as in you’re an accessibility ally, but it has an 11 instead of ll because they look similar, which is not very accessible"
  218. [alexlande] which makes very little sense, in retrospect
  219. [jiatyan] ditto michiel
  220. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jun 24 22:42
    [kate] I thought the same thing, @alexlande !
  221. [kate] In my head and occasionally out loud I'll say "ally" but I usually just go for 'accessibility'. My coworker says 'a-eleven-y' and it made me wonder what the norm was.
  222. [alexlande] ha! glad I’m not alone on that one =D