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A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 28th of July 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 00:19
    [bmeunier] @michiel: Oh. Oh? OH! OHHHh….
  2. [michiel] =D
  3. [michiel] Link to example should now also be fixed.
  4. [michiel] (only took me 7 months to write that) :see_no_evil:
  5. [michiel] I guess I got a bit busy with life.
  6. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 00:24
    [michiel] BTW, were are you from? Because I don't know how to pronounce your last name. It looks either German or French to me :P
  7. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 00:32
    [bmeunier] I’m from Montréal. It’s french. I’m french. But not french french … french canadien.
  8. [bmeunier] You can call me Benny.
  9. [michiel] Ah, so I guess when I pronounced it in a french way I was correct?
  10. [bmeunier] Well… If, one day, I meet an anglophone who can pronounced my last name right, I’ll give him a car. A beautiful one.
  11. [michiel] I talked about the breadcrumb stuff (and your initial question) at an event today.
  12. [bmeunier] I had to wrote a specs at IBM concerning breadcrumbs. Now I have a third-party to rely on. For independance.
  13. [bmeunier] Tks.
  14. [michiel] Well, I'm Dutch, so that doesn't count I guess.
  15. [bmeunier] You could say Benoit Molenaar in Dutch.
  16. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 00:38
    [bmeunier] What event?
  17. [michiel] London Accessibility Meetup: http://www.meetup.com//London-Accessibility-Meetup/events/231960703/?showDescription=true
  18. [bmeunier] I love knowing that you didn’t forget about a miller asked you about breadcrumbs.
  19. [michiel] What's a miller? Besides a person who works in a mill.
  20. [bmeunier] It’s exactly that. A miller in french is a Meunier.
  21. [michiel] Ahhh
  22. [michiel] I'll ask my partner, she can teach me how to pronounce it; she's French.
  23. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 00:43
    [bmeunier] I’m sorry.
  24. [bmeunier] I think it’s important to have this conversation in public. ;) Anyway, thank you Michiel. I’ll study that this friday with my first cup of coffee.
  25. [michiel] He, sure.
  26. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jul 28 07:55
    GOOD
  27. MORNING
  28. SLACKERS
  29. goetsu
    @goetsu
    Jul 28 07:59
    Hi
  30. as anyone ever found an inline form validation using aria-live working with VoiceOver ?
  31. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jul 28 08:01
    Not yet, but ask me in a week or 2 since I'll have
  32. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 08:27
    Does anyone think aria-owns could be useful for tooltips (as in, how can a non-visual user know what the tooltip is pointing at ?
  33. Does VO ignore validation messages?
  34. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jul 28 08:37
    @StommePoes I'd say only when the DOM structure does not already indicate a relationship (parent/child for example)
  35. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 08:40
    Well this thing gets inserted dynamically and looks like J Random Content that's either happening to be before or after (currently after) the thingie in question
  36. and sometimes these tooltips will be pulled into museum-guide duty
  37. so pointing at Thing A "look you can do this!" and then Thing B "then you can also choose that!"
  38. and I think simply having them there, even adjascent in the DOM, isn't really enough.
  39. But since the things pointed to aren't always focusables, aria-describedby is limited I think
  40. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jul 28 08:56
    Try it in a screenreader with owns and without? See if difference
  41. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 08:56
    Yeah I'll have to build fake versions first as the real code is complicated
  42. but trying to think of what else besides owns or describedy can best orient a tip
  43. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Jul 28 09:58
    @StommePoes Owns doesn't sound right for tool tips. A button for example can't own anything (except if it is a menu button) so you couldn't use aria-owns in most cases.
  44. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jul 28 10:02
    Woah, recruiter called my phone for a Perl job
  45. WHAT IS HAPPENING
  46. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 10:16
    @jnurthen hm. I need some way to say "there's a relationship between these things and it's not in teh DOM"
  47. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Jul 28 10:17
    Aria-controls.
  48. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 10:17
    [michiel] jkva: there are Perl jobs?
  49. [michiel] I only know of one Perl Job ;)
  50. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jul 28 10:17
    Apparently
  51. sad_trombone.wav
  52. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 10:18
    [michiel] We need more accessibility jobs.
  53. [michiel] When are you joining the fun Job?
  54. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 10:19
    there is a perljobs
  55. Aria-controls says one thing controls another
  56. this "tip" doesn't control anyone and I don't think I can say the thingie being pointed to controls the tip
  57. I would consider it for the "what's this?" type links you click to show a tip
  58. like the credit card security number thing
  59. but these are more like either a tour type of thing (users can even click next adn prev links) and others are more like "hey look we added a cool new whatever to this existing thingie"
  60. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jul 28 10:22
    @michiel someday likely
  61. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 10:23
    [michiel] StommePoes: the thingy that points at the thing controls its visibility no?
  62. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 10:25
    no
  63. there is sometimes a close button
  64. which adds something to the DB saying "this user has seen it, don't show again"
  65. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 10:26
    [michiel] Okay, well, in that case it's a dialog.
  66. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 10:26
    but, some of these are option (if you never see it, that sucks but doesn't prevent you from using the page) while others will force themselves more on them
  67. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 10:26
    [michiel] And dialogs are not necessarily owned by anything as far as I know.
  68. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 10:26
    Well but they can't do a lot of dialoggy things. But I do want if someone runs into one that they can tell what it's talking about
  69. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 10:26
    [michiel] Tooltips are dialogs too as far as the APG is concerned.
  70. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 10:27
    I'm waggling between do I give them a role at all, a role of tooltip or a role of dialog.
  71. ok. So there ought to be a code/programmatic way I can say "this dialog/bit of text is referring specifically to --> this thingie on the page"
  72. and I don't think simply being next to each other in the DOM is enough
  73. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 10:28
    [michiel] http://w3c.github.io/aria-practices/#dialog_tooltip
  74. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 10:28
    I was asked by a dev did it matter the order. I had to say "for now, no" because whether ti should be first or last depends a lot on the thingie we're point to
  75. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 10:28
    [michiel] What would a user miss if it wasn't specifically linked though?
  76. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 10:28
    thx
  77. Well it depends
  78. haha
  79. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 10:28
    [michiel] Haha, always a good answer :P
  80. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 10:28
    On one page, you are a new user and need to be directed to use a search function to get started
  81. now the main part fo the page states this too
  82. so I think most people would still see this
  83. but the little popup thing helps visual people right away
  84. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 10:29
    [michiel] And you need to close that?
  85. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 10:29
    screen mag users and reader users won't notice it but they could stumble across it (it's in the header) before getting to the main content IF they were to go through the page linearly (most likely with a new user but no way to mandate that)
  86. That one needs to be closed, although I told the devs since that particular one is about "get started adding thigns" that once the db has things, the user doesn't need that info anymore
  87. so here we can programmatically determine the tooltip is no longer needed and it won'y show next login
  88. but most of them have dismiss links or close buttons so visually they get out of your way if you've seen them
  89. they don't do that auto-fade thing
  90. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 10:31
    [michiel] Aha
  91. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 10:31
    So these aren't like those popups that may appear because you focussed on somethign and it needs to close again if the user tabs on
  92. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 10:31
    [michiel] So it's a tooltip that is open by default?
  93. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 10:31
    they're mostly like those stupid annoying tooltips
  94. that appear on load like when a website wants you to know HEY LOOK WE'VE ADDED COOL STUFF
  95. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 10:32
    [michiel] Right, right.
  96. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 10:32
    you want to be able to click it away, but yesterday I told them not to make it gone jsut because a user clicked elsewhere
  97. because as a screen mag user or reader user, I may not necessarily know it's on the page, and may be there to do a task first
  98. let it remain so I can discover it
  99. but if I discover it (it will never steal focus), I'll need to know what it's talking about
  100. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 10:33
    [michiel] Isn't that a content/text problem?
  101. [michiel] “Type here to start” … errrrr
  102. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 10:33
    So, like, what's it pointing to? Would I need hidden extra text naming the pointed-to elemnet? (visually it's super-obvoius and would be clutter ot add text)
  103. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 10:33
    [michiel] “Type in the search box to start looking for cute kittens”
  104. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 10:33
    The text is more ambiguous than that
  105. it names what we call that component but a lot of people might just call it a search
  106. and it doesn't say to type
  107. not a command really, more like "start here" or "use this"
  108. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 10:34
    [michiel] “Don't type to start in what you might call a search”?
  109. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 10:35
    or there may be an existing link/button/dropdown which now calls attn to the user "invite more people to your thingie!"
  110. I need a code solution to get around whatever weird and crazy crap the content writers come up with
  111. in whichever language it gets translated itno
  112. into
  113. I would prefer a programmatic way of doing that
  114. something that does the job of the little arrow
  115. I mean, without the arrow, a sighted mousey user would also have trouble figuring out what we're pointing to
  116. you can figure it out with context, but the arrow does a lot of work
  117. I don't want to rely on an arrow since that means non-visual-wise it means those folks are back at relying on context
  118. none of the keyboard interactions listed with tooltip are applicable
  119. we cannot force or trap keyboard
  120. we cannot yank focus from the start of the apge to the tooltip
  121. that's just rude
  122. and 99% of the time there are no focusables inside, except the cloes button and sometimes another close button called 'got it!"
  123. and it cannot be immediately closed just because a click happened outside of it
  124. it may be under the fold or outside where a screen mag shows
  125. so good, I can scratch tooltip role off my list if possibilities
  126. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 10:47
    [michiel] Hmm, would a aria-described do the job?
  127. [michiel] As in, when they focus the field thing.
  128. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 10:48
    For the ones with focus, yeah
  129. I've already told the devs they can do that
  130. but some things are more like chunks of content
  131. and not all these tooltips have headings... some do, some don't. The ones that don't, i'd want the heading of the chunk they're pointing to to sorta also be the heading of the tooltip
  132. sometimes it's just a visual "look at me!" thing, so I don't worry too much if some users miss or ignore it. For the more important ones I want a aria-points-to="id of thing"
  133. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 10:51
    [michiel] Sounds like a consistency problem.
  134. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 10:51
    yeah
  135. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Jul 28 10:51
    I'M MR MESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
  136. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 10:51
    I had a long meeting yesterday trying to set things/rules for the 2 types they are implementing right now
  137. Yeah all tooltips should start with a Mr Meseeks
  138. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Jul 28 10:58
    We had the same issues in jet (although worse as the tooltips are not adjacent in the dom always)
  139. I'm pretty certain we have described by but we also add extra text to tell a user how to move to the tooltip.
  140. I think we use F6. There may also be a link added to allow VO users to navigate to the tooltip.
  141. Need to allow focus to move to it as they can be novels and also can have embedded links etc.
  142. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 11:00
    [michiel] Are you using epub for your tooltips James?
  143. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Jul 28 11:00
    Lol.
  144. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 12:20
    zomg that's also on my list-- I have to get into Epub because it's what we do, I guess. I keep getting asked "how to do x accessibly in Epub" and all I know is that a lot of it is just HTML but not all
  145. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 14:24
    Hm... https://www.amazon.com/Habit-Behavior-Marketers-Ignore-paperback/dp/013707011X?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0 if I scroll down to "More About the Author" there's one of these tooltips. In this case it appears to be triggered by lazy-loading scroll but as far as I'm concerned it is the same as "already on the page". A user can choose to ignore it, or click the close button.
  146. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 14:31

    [jakecross] http://paste.ubuntu.com/21269603/

    Could someone please take a look at this paste and let me know if there is an accepted preference between tabindex 0 and using js to apply a class when another element is focused? Note: I can't make too many changes to the overall html+css to just have the <a> work as I would like.

  147. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 14:32
    are you saying you would like the li to do something when its child anchor is focussed?
  148. Like, how would I tab through a focusable parent with a focusable child?
  149. would I need two tabstops for each list item?
  150. Something like these products in product list? http://www.fonq.be/nl_BE/tuin-vrije-tijd/1518/#main when the anchors or the checkboxes get focus, their parents get a class of "focusd" which changes how that li looks.
  151. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 14:38
    [jakecross] At the moment the <li> is getting some styling on hover. I want to have the same thing happen when the child <a> receives focus.
  152. [jakecross] An li without a tab index cannot receive focus (as far as I understand) - I could make it do that with a tabindex of 0 but don't know if that's horrible for other reasons and I should apply styles with JS on focus of the child instead (or an alternative I've not thought of)
  153. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 14:45
    [heidi] Content that’s only visible on hover/focus seems not great - which wcag criterion might it fall under?
  154. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 14:51
    depends heidi-- if the content is being hidden to improve cognitive-disabilities users to digest the page information, it would be under the areas where it talks about things like reading level
  155. otherwise the perception areas.
  156. @jakecross unless I can't finagle it, I don't allow :hover effects on li's-- I make the anchors blocks or otherwise fill all of teh li and let the :hover (and thus also :focus) hit the a alone
  157. like often the anchors may be floated in a horizontal menu and the li's are just display: inline (and that's only to avoid the staircase bug in IE7)
  158. meaning the anchors are all of the visibleness
  159. but there might be other things in that li so this technique may have places where that won't work
  160. but if you can really only use JS, then yeah let anchor.onfocus=function(e){this.parentNode.addClass(hovered)...;} or whateverf
  161. @heidi 3.1 might even conflict with 3.2 depending on how it's interpreted
  162. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 14:56
    [heidi] Thanks Stomme - the date of an article is hidden, but shows on focus/hover of the article link. I don’t think it would fail anything truly, but I’d like to recommend the date be available without a needed action… just not sure where it would align, which criterion...
  163. [heidi] maybe 1.3.1 in that one might not expect hovering over a link to reveal extra information.
  164. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 15:43

    [jakecross] That's great thanks.

    The content on hover and focus is a visual aid for determining location of the focus as the user moves through the site.

  165. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 15:51
    [jakecross] So it's a visual aid and not real content for the user. I'm not hiding anything.
  166. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 16:07
    @heidi I can see unnecessary hiding of info + mystery-meating it (the user does not expect hovering/focussing to offer more information and may assume it's not there if they don't bother playing around with it) and that may hit perceiveable as in, the information does not appear to be readily available to the user
  167. @jakecross wait so what's hover's job then? on the li:hover originally?
  168. That the fonq example I posted also shows more stuff is just happenstance-- most of the other e-commerce sites I used that trick on merely showed for example a glowy border or the link text changed colour while maintaining the large around-the-image click area on some shops.
  169. But in order to hit all the things inside the li that needed to change how they look, including the li itself which by necessity needed to hold the border (anchor couldn't as it doesn't wrap everything), listening for :focus on any focusables inside the li and then givien the li a class was the best option at the time.
  170. On a lot of versions of our e-commerce pages the checkbox to check for "compare this item" was not visible unless users hovered over the image (the idea that a user with interest in a product is about to click it and so moves their mouse over the product). This didn't work for keyboarders so I tried to make "focus on the anchor shows its sibling the checkbox" a thing. Still broken for touchscreens though of course.
  171. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 16:11

    [jakecross] On hover, it shows come colour that will be used as the theme for that selection. If you're going into [A], you'll be looking through [green] things. If you're going to [B], you'll see [red] things.

    You get an underline for that colour as you hover. I wanted to add that same thing to focus.

    Are we saying the colour should be there by default and not on hover or focus as all?

  172. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 16:12
    I can't say whether you should only show these things on hover/focus or not without seeing the example (and, colourblindness and information-only-told-by-colour-alone has been already dealt with?), only that indeed one option for changing styles on li's themselves or lots of children of li's can indeed be to listen for focus on the anchor and then add a link to the li.
  173. The thing Heidi is talking about is the problem of Mystery Meat
  174. It was a big thing back in the day when creative people thought "let's make the main nav menu for our burger joint consist of pictures of our food products! So fun and creative!"
  175. and in order for users to know what the picture of the cheezburger did or the picture of fries, they had to try playing around moving their mouse or tabbing
  176. meaning, there was no information scent and users had no idea what would happen, how things might work, or what these things did
  177. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 16:14
    [jakecross] Oh so they know where they're going without hovering... it adds colour to give some sort of grouping to that item.
  178. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 16:14
    it was a mystery meat-- only after putting it in your mouth adn tasting it can you guess which animal it is
  179. yeah if it's just additional styling to reinforce something already known, gofer it
  180. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 16:15
    [jakecross] And if I were to go for it... is adding a tabindex="0" (the quickest thing) going to be ok?
  181. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 16:15
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1188GO4p1E
  182. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 16:15

    [jakecross] I was going to hook it up with JS and a colleague said "just add tabindex, much easier"

    While easier is true.... I don't know if that will cause other issues and should be avoided.

  183. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 16:15
    Adding a tabindex to a parent of a focusable's parent is... definitely weirder than letting JS add a class
  184. You could test it
  185. I do suspect with a tabindex on the li you'd get NVDA for example calling each link a "clickable clickable clickable"
  186. makes me think of Buffalo buffalo buffalo
  187. at the very least, does it act unexpectedly when you're just tabbing through these?
  188. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 16:17
    [jakecross] that's cool. I'll go with the JS option as it makes the most sense to me
  189. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 16:17
    and that's only if there's no way to actually make the anchor itself do all the work (you would need to be able to change teh HTML and CSS though)
  190. <li><a href="foo">All sorts of crazy stuff</a></li> where the li has no visible rendering at all and the anchor has all the padding and borders and whatevers... here, no JS would be needed to change background colours or borders or anything because the anchor would be taking up all the visible space
  191. I'd make that my 1st attempt, and if that's not reasonably possible, move to JS for the second
  192. and leave the tabindex option as the "everything else died in a fire and they said we couldn't use JS and if we did we'd be tied down and forced to watch Tommy Weiseau's The Room repeatedly"
  193. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 16:19
    [jakecross] So I tried tinkering with the existing CSS and secondary navigation items went bananas
  194. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 16:19
    is this a crazy menu with submenus?
  195. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 16:20
    [jakecross] It was my first choice but moving styling off the li caused issues
  196. [jakecross] This is a crazy menu with sub menus
  197. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 16:20
    it might not be any easy task to mess with a complicated menu.
  198. this might be a whole task. Like, a lot of work.
  199. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 16:22
    [jakecross] I'll go with the JS as it sits nicely between the CSS changes (which cause the page to freak out) and the tabindex which sounds like a screen reader issue waiting to happen (and just doesn't make much sense having a lot of tabindex="0" laying around)
  200. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Jul 28 17:50
    So I just downloaded the first Windows build of Servo. Seems like it doesn't support CSS. Maybe not JS. And didn't register all of my keypresses. Also, tabbing didn't move you from field to field.
  201. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 18:36
    Our component is so shitty-crazy that, unbeknownst to me because I don't have a mac and can't test, but VoiceOver was reading the number "3" before stuff inside a heading on every change of that heading text
  202. so the developers' solution was "we made the h3 a div and this solved it"
  203. since I can't have any idea why VO would read out the number of a heading without stating it's a heading, I dunno what to say to them, because the whole steaming pile of react is so bad it doesn't work well with ANY screen reader
  204. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Jul 28 18:45
    I honestly believe all of these JS languages are moving way too fast and not planned out well. "It creates a page that runs for me and how I want it to look so ship it"
  205. ignorant devs not knowing why things are the way they are and doing quick and dirty solutions that ignore all best practices
  206. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 18:50
    [marcysutton] Yep. https://twitter.com/pauljadam/status/646771996521463809
  207. [marcysutton] Someone fav’d that just yesterday, reminded me of the conversation between React peeps last year
  208. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 21:44
    I just saw an a11y thing where it stated an anchor or span or something with a role of button and a tabindex was better than a button "for compat reasons"
  209. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 21:45
    [jiatyan] Details details... so, which WCAG criteria does this fall under? I'm looking at a mega menu. I can use the tab key to move to all the links in the main and sub-menu items, and the links have visible focus indicators. The catch is that I can NOT see these links because the main menu forgot to display their sub-menus, and essentially I'm moving through the links blind. I can trigger the display of the submenus only by rolling the mouse pointer over the main menu.
  210. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 21:45
    was it the spec I read that? I don't remember, I was so confused, why not just use a button. This wasn't from some foobar dev, it was some respected source that should know better to I kept trying to figure out what they knew that I didn't
  211. Well focussing on invisible shit fails prolly a few things in WCAG
  212. lemme see which ones those are
  213. obvoiusly "visible focus"
  214. 2.4.7
  215. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 21:46
    [jiatyan] Seems to pass both 2.1.1 Keyboard navigation and pass 2.4.7 focus visible. But obviously a keyboard usability problem.
  216. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 21:47
    How does it pass visible focus if, with keyboard only, you have no visible focus for the subs?
  217. The little popup in the lower left-hand corner of the browser with the URL doesn't count I don't think.
  218. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 21:47
    [jiatyan] I mouse over the menu, and then I can continue to see the focus.
  219. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 21:47
    "moving through the links blind" seems to fail visible focus to me.
  220. So how to I with my cerebral palsy using switch control move the mouse? for example
  221. If a mouse/pointer is needed for visible focus I'd say it's a fail.
  222. Because it's dependent on that device.
  223. and so they did add visible focus to teh subs when the subs are visible
  224. that's good
  225. but they need the links themselves visbile even without a mouse.
  226. I kinda wouldn't even pass a CSS-only submenu I once made where, while the whole submenu wasn't visible, I did have the particular item you're focussed on, onscreen.
  227. Just because not seeing the other submenu items makes orientation difficult.
  228. So it's a fail of visible focus, but not because they did something like outline:none or whatever. Instead of manually sabotaging it with something like that, they just forgot additional code to show the subs. which pretty much has to be javascript.
  229. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 21:51
    [jiatyan] yea, you're right. Thanks for thinking it out with me.
  230. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Jul 28 21:51
    I mostly just rambled... time for bed.
  231. Common example though, I hate that nos.nl does it :(
  232. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Jul 28 21:56
    [jiatyan] :) exact same problem