Archive index

A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 1st of August 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 07:38
    [michiel] yawns
  2. [dean] How is Oxford treating you @michiel?
  3. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Aug 01 07:42
    o/
  4. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 07:42
    [michiel] It's fine, roads suck though, so not the best for cycling. I'm hoping I'll find better roads somewhere.
  5. [michiel] There is enough here to explore and read for a life time, so maybe I should just hit the books and sell the bike :P
  6. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Aug 01 07:44
    Why not audiobooks and have both
  7. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 07:44
    [michiel] I frequently listen to audiobooks on the bike :)
  8. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 07:59
    [dean] I need 100% concentration on the bike and haven’t managed to master cycling and listening to stuff at the same time. Amsterdam expat life for you.
  9. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Aug 01 08:00
    @dean Oh right, Amsterdam, yeah I was more thinking countryside
  10. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 08:10
    [michiel] Yeah I'm not listening to audiobooks while in the city center :P
  11. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 01 09:06
    It may even be illegal
  12. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 10:01
    [jamesmtownsend] Morning all, anyone about?
  13. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Aug 01 10:01
    Mornin
  14. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 10:02
    [jamesmtownsend] I have a question that I hope someone can help me with
  15. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Aug 01 10:02
    Asking is free :)
  16. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 10:02
    [jv] shoot
  17. [jamesmtownsend] I’m putting together some a11y research but I was wondering if anyone had any data on what the top web accessibility issues are
  18. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Aug 01 10:05
    Besides that, design trumping content, leading to hard-to-read and operate website (as Adrian Roselli says, "we reward the wrong things").
  19. Personally I'd say it's twofold, developer ignorance (unaware), developer laziness. Which leads to: semantically invalid HTML.
  20. 1) Build a website with content-first mindset. 2) Know how to make this content available. 3) Design the site while not violating [1,2]
  21. But I'm hardly an expert =)
  22. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 10:07
    [jamesmtownsend] Thanks but not really what I’m looking for, maybe I need to word it better
  23. [jamesmtownsend] I meant issues that users come across
  24. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Aug 01 10:07
    Ah, sorry
  25. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 10:07
    [jamesmtownsend] e.g. missing alt text, captcha etc
  26. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Aug 01 10:08
    Missing focus styles, borked tabindex
  27. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 10:09
    [jv] there are different kind of users so top issues would be different for different group
  28. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Aug 01 10:10
    Sandbag links for JS hooks
  29. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 10:10
    [jamesmtownsend] What’s that?
  30. [jamesmtownsend] @jv: I guess i’m looking for top issues for different groups of people
  31. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Aug 01 10:11
    <a href="#">Hiya I'm a button</a> with some JS handler attached
  32. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 10:12
    [jv] Though most of the time I think we usually consider screen reader users only as a differently-abled users
  33. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Aug 01 10:12
    Mystery meat controls (e.g. icon fonts) without labels
  34. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 10:13
    [jv] Low or bad contrast is one of the problem which affect many people
  35. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Aug 01 10:14
    Ah yeah
  36. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 10:15
    [jv] Alt text only affects in content images are being used on the page
  37. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Aug 01 10:15
    Magic controls (double-click) without accessible alternative (hence not Robust)
  38. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 10:15
    [jamesmtownsend] But what would you say the top 5 or 10 issues are?
  39. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Aug 01 10:16
    This might come close
  40. But as JV says, really depends on audience
  41. I mean for video it'd be lack of caption, transcript
  42. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 10:17
    [jv] For blind person
    1) Rendering order
    2) Absence of “Skip to content”
    3) Incorrect use of Headings
    4) Multiple links with same link text
    5) Improper tab order
  43. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Aug 01 10:18
    Nice
  44. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 10:18
    [jamesmtownsend] is skip to content a big issue for sr? don’t they use the heading structure?
  45. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Aug 01 10:19
    If headings are valid, yes. For keyboard-only users they're also nice.
  46. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 01 10:21
    they're essential for keyboard-only
  47. and keyboard-only can include speech-to-text, switch control, etc (not that these don't have a pointer accessible to them but using it is a bitch)
  48. skip to content depends for sr users if they are tabbers or not
  49. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 10:22
    [jamesmtownsend] ok, cool
  50. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 01 10:22
    Heydon has some anecdotes for sr users if you'd like to read
  51. but it is only sr users
  52. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 10:22
    [jv] Old age and low vision people
    1) Tiny font size
    2) Auto play carousels
    3) Low contrast
    4) Lack of proper visual structure for readability
  53. [jamesmtownsend] yea i read that, really insightful
  54. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 01 10:23
    http://www.heydonworks.com/article/responses-to-the-screen-reader-strategy-survey
  55. another huge issue for low-vision if they use screen mag: shit happening somewhere else on the screen
  56. the developers assume users will notice it
  57. they might even add a live region for sr-users
  58. but with screen mag, esp if youy full-screen it (what I tend to do), you only see the little place where you are
  59. and if the messages fade away after a moment, you never know they were there-- so they'd better not be important.
  60. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 10:25
    [jamesmtownsend] interesting
  61. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 01 10:25
    it's why I like messages under the submit button you just pressed ("added to cart!"), audio pings when you have new messages, and when very important, alerts that do force focus to them (they move the screen mag)
  62. just think of any page you're using, on a "desktop" monitor, and all you're aware of is about the size of a credit card or less
  63. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 10:26
    [jv] *Keyboard users*
    1) Skip to content
    2) tab order
    3) absence or clearly visible :focus
    4) Content hidden in pop-up which can be revealed by tab
  64. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 01 10:26
    if you tab around, where the focus goes can bring your mag there. Otherwise it's based on where your mouse is and scrolliing.
  65. jv 100% agree
  66. like navigation menus, try nos.nl ZOMG that sucks
  67. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 10:29
    [jv] Slow performance of the content is a big problem for everyone including differently abled people.
  68. [jamesmtownsend] Thanks, this is all interesting but I’m looking more into what the most common issues are that users experience
  69. [jv] I think all above things are experienced by users only in their daily life, or I’m unable to get what kind of specificness you are looking for
  70. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 10:34
    [jamesmtownsend] @jv: Thanks for your lists, I get that these are issues that people experience all the time but I’m trying to pin down what the top issues are in general, covering different types of people
  71. [jamesmtownsend] it’s part of training developers to say ‘these are the main a11y problems with the web and here’s how you fix them'
  72. [jv] W3C has videos of how these issues affects users
  73. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 10:41
    [jv] @jamesmtownsend: ok though I think Designer’s should be given a11y training too. Often the decisions made my Designers, product managers, Business people affect the accessibility too and developers either follow them follow blindly or forced to
  74. [jamesmtownsend] @jv: i agree but I’ve been asked to get a list of top issues for developers, i could expand this to cover designers, content authors etc
  75. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 01 10:43
    Our UX testers have a list of problems, but I know they are both specific to the users (was mixed testing of low-vision/blind and low-mobility (voice and headmouse users) and the content (e-learning platform which had specific components built into it, such as a weirdo slider at the bottom of the page that is supposed to move students to the next "page")
  76. and I suspect that's more true than a set of most-problematic in the general vanilla web
  77. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 10:45
    [jamesmtownsend] Still interesting to know what issues they had
  78. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 01 10:45
    lack of structure hits anyone that's very DOM-oriented like sr-users. Not working with keyboard hits everyone who uses either a keyboard or keyboard-imitating AT. Poorly-written copy affects everyone from those with cog issues to dyslexics to low-literacy and second-language people.
  79. well a lot of it was testers not understanding what things were meant to do
  80. because designers loved making fancy special things
  81. nobody knew how to work them
  82. the headmousers consistantly complained of the tests/quizzes having very tiny click areas (the labels for the radios and checkboxes weren't real labels and so were not clickable)
  83. the IE users all complained they could not use the back button (bugs hit all users but AT users are more likely to use IE)
  84. The alert messages in the login/signup form was problematic for most of teh screen reader users, as suddenly very long messages were read out and because these messages were CSS generated content they could not go back and re-listen, go word by word or check spelling, esp with the "password rules" popup
  85. because it's like 8 things you need todo for a good password
  86. the testers basically had to keep that list in their shortterm memory
  87. that's hard
  88. but this isn't going to be true of other websites-- it had a lot to do with how THESE forms were built.
  89. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 10:48
    [jv] 1) Absence of Semantic HTML for content and navigation
    2) Absence of labels in forms
    3) Usages of Div and span tags with ARIA while Semantic HTML tags can be used
    4) Use of Anchor tags Instead buttons
    5) Improper usages of heading
    6) Developer lacks good HTML knowledge
    7) Usages of inaccessible libraries, code example because everyone is using them
  90. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 01 10:49
    and most websites don't have a weird bar slider thing on the bottom to move "forward" with
  91. I dunno @jv if #3 affects so many people, unless they are also broken. If they work, a user would not notice the difference.
  92. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 10:50
    [jamesmtownsend] @StommePoes sure but some of those issues are quite common thou right?
  93. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 01 10:50
    #6 is often the cause of many of the other problems, rather than a problem itself.
  94. Well if forms are common and commonly without labels being programmatically linked to their inputs then yeah with all small inputs everyone with poor mouse control would have an absolutely difficult time clicking the little small clickable area-- this is a known usability issue in general though. fitt's law and all that
  95. makes it also hard to use speech to text as you can't use the label text to move focus to the input
  96. your answer might also really be dependent on global statistics of disability: are the majority of your users low-vision (not blind) with general ok mobility? Then low-vision issues would go to the top of the problem list. Certainly all statistics for disability show low-vision being vastly larger in number than totally or nearly blind, for example.
  97. screen reader users will likely be the smallest in number of all people with disability who visit any site of yours.
  98. just based on statistics.
  99. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 10:53
    [jv] @jamesmtownsend: it is considered as a bad practice and when developer try to mimic a standard html control with alternatives, it lead to more work and problems
  100. [jv] and we developer are often lazy
  101. [jv] > If the button role is added to an element that is not focusable by itself (such as <span>, <div> or <p>) then, the tabindex attributes have to be used to make the button focusable
  102. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 01 10:54
    @jv true, the #1 rule of aria is don't use it. But from a user's perspective, if you had <div tabindex="0" role="button">button</div> with all the correct scripting, a user wouldn't know the difference and so would not flag it as a problem they encountered.
  103. So I don't think using aria when you should not use aria is necessarily a cause of user complaints. It would be for all those new widgets where even with ARIA they don't fully work.
  104. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 10:55
    [jv] yes but if we are making a list to give to developers, i will include this point
  105. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 01 10:55
    But if the end result is a user who is not a coder doesn't see a difference, they won't state it as a problem for them, and I think @jamesmtownsend is looknig for things users complain about
  106. Yeah I would too, just not in a list of top user complaints, but instead in top-things good developers should do.
  107. There are a couple of good lists out there of "things developers should do" although at my job the bigger problem is designers first making designs that preclude native elements. They like Bootstrap a lot and take a lot of crap from there and it's hard for us devs to make accessible versions of those. The Bootstrap ones even have roles and things added but sr and browser and OS support aren't always good, whereas a select element would always work for the button+dropdown "widget" the designers want us to imitate.
  108. And styling selects is hard.
  109. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 10:57
    [jv] because i know often other developers will start following other and they will forget to included things like tabindex=“0” to other components which eventually will affect UX
  110. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 01 10:57
    Yeah
  111. I would like all devs to keyboard through anything they build and their colleagues build
  112. it's a quick and easy way to see if something works basically and they quickly find problems they've coded.
  113. or, where I work, mostly a developer is making 1 thing for a page that already exists.
  114. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 10:58
    [jv] We should not build a recipe for later disaster.
  115. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 01 10:58
    Haha, that's tweet worthy, Jitendra
  116. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 11:00
    [jv] I sometime use Voice over
  117. [jv] Biggest problem I have seen is in the first thing
  118. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 01 11:00
    Want to hear a good voice over story, @jv?
  119. We had a heading with the month and year above a calendar in an h3.
  120. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 11:01
    [jv] "Page Titles"
  121. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 01 11:01
    The developers heard "3" before the month and year
  122. the calendar underneath already had problems of reading out random numbers whenever you clicked a next or prev month button, so they thought the 3 was also a problem
  123. so they made the h3 a div instead
  124. problem solved, they said.
  125. They were listening in voiceOver which I don't have, NVDA and JAWS and Orca clearly say "heading level 3" or similar.
  126. oh I remember "untitled page" was on a lot of websites back in the day
  127. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 11:04
    [jv] Speed is another problem I se
  128. [jv] 10% loaded
  129. [jv] 40% loaded
  130. [jv] 80% loded
  131. [jv] is irritating
  132. [jv] Pages are slow to load
  133. [jv] I do not have any disability but I sometime try to use voiceover so I can just listen the content on websites instead reading.
  134. [jv] that experience is not good so i come back to reading
  135. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 01 11:07
    cnn.com is a slow loader
  136. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 11:08
    [jv] Though I use audio feature in my Pocket app (Android) which works quite well
  137. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 11:13
    [jv] https://help.getpocket.com/article/1081-listening-to-articles-in-pocket-with-text-to-speech
  138. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 11:18
    [jv] can voice over read different languages other than english?
  139. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Aug 01 11:19
    @jv yes http://adrianroselli.com/2015/01/on-use-of-lang-attribute.html
  140. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 11:24
    [jv] what happens in absence of lang attribute
  141. [jv] I’m on Hindi page and voiceover is unable to read content written in Hindi
  142. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Aug 01 11:26
    In absence of lang attr, it defaults to browser locale
  143. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 11:26

    [jv] In this paragraph on a hindi news website

    तीन दिन पहले दिल्ली के आईजीआई एयरपोर्ट पर DMK सांसद को थप्पड़ जड़ने वाली राज्यसभा सांसद शशिकला पुष्पा को जयलल‍िता ने AIADMK से बाहर कर दिया. पार्टी महासच‍िव जयललिता ने कहा कि शश‍िकला को AIADMK की छवि खराब करने के चलते पार्टी से निकाला गया.

  144. [jv] Voiceover read like this

    DMK AIADMK AIADMK

  145. [jv] It skips everything which is not in English
  146. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 01 11:28
    and if it did have a lang attr, does it read it then?
  147. I know from Deborah and Amanda Rush that VO for example can read Hebrew
  148. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 11:28
    [jv] I don’t know that yet
  149. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Aug 01 11:28
    Yeah was gonna say, what if you set it to the correct lang via attr
  150. And then try lang="en", if that does work, you know that your VO might not be able to read Hindi
  151. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 11:29
    [michiel] VoiceOver doesn't do automatic language switching on OS X 10.11
  152. [michiel] On iOS it does for some.
  153. [michiel] Not sure about macOS
  154. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 01 11:30
    by automatic you mean if a page has one language and text somewhere inside is set in another?
  155. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 11:30
    [jv] Is there still a way to make it read Hindi?
  156. [jv] I’m on OSX and Chrome
  157. [jv] It’s not my website so I can’t edit and add lang attribute
  158. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 01 11:31
    @jv I know some blind Indians that I could ask but they aren't mac users, one uses Linux and the others are Windows
  159. But maybe Pranav Lal has tried out VO
  160. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 11:33
    [michiel] @StommePoes: yeah, so if <html lang=en\_au> and <p lang=nl> or something; VO on OS X 10.11 won't automatically speak the text in the paragraph in Dutch.
  161. [michiel] @jv: maybe if you set the page itself to Hindi?
  162. [michiel] I'll test this again because I'm beginning to doubt myself now.
  163. [jv] @michiel: How?
  164. [michiel] <html lang=language code for hindi>
  165. [jv] Ok now I just tested a hindi new webpage which is using <html lang=“hi"
  166. [michiel] Or is that a too obvious answer :P
  167. [jv] VO still doesn’t read Hindi
  168. [jv] other people can test too if the want with this page http://www.bbc.com/hindi/india/2016/08/160801_bulandsahar_gang_rape_arrest_ra
  169. [jv] VO only dictate if it finds anything in English
  170. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 11:38
    [jv] Hindi is in supported list by the way http://www.apple.com/accessibility/osx/voiceover/
  171. [michiel] Here we go: https://dir.rawr.eu/research/multi-lang.html
  172. [michiel] Oeps
  173. [michiel] Test with that file: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRNL1tw_ls8
  174. [michiel] As you can clearly hear, Lee isn't baking there too much from ;)
  175. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 01 11:47
    Orca on FF reads that Hindi BBC page fine, although I notice they did not translate the other strings like they should have, such as the hidden navigation or the first headings
  176. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 11:48
    [jv] Apple’s official page say VO support in Hindi but it doesn't
  177. [jv] http://take.ms/H0nez
  178. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 01 11:48
    and you have the latest version of osx right/
  179. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 11:48
    [jv] 10.11.6
  180. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 01 11:49
    I wonder if it's true only for some latest version? Or if they mean "supports but only if you bought a voice that supports"?
  181. Like, when I downloaded JAWS it didn't support Dutch but the version I have on disc does because it came from a Dutch supplier
  182. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 11:49
    [michiel] @jv: do you have Hindi installed?
  183. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 01 11:50
    Jitendra probably has Hindi as a language available on his computer.
  184. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 11:50
    [jv] It’s not available to install
  185. [jv] http://take.ms/H0nez
  186. [michiel] alt=Dication and Speach settings pane shows Hindi as one of the available languages on OS X 10.11.6 https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/C8joLYGA/Screen%20Shot%202016-08-01%20at%2012.50.47.png
  187. [jv] @michiel: I don’t know from where and how to install
  188. [jv] http://take.ms/aPu2S
  189. [jv] In my setting it doesn’t show
  190. [michiel] Settings → Dictation & Speech → Click the pop up menu for language, scroll down.
  191. [jv] http://take.ms/pVByr
  192. [michiel] :/
  193. [michiel] Stupid thing is, I have Japanese installed, but in the video I linked to earlier, it doesn't speak it.
  194. [jv] Anyone from Apple here?
  195. [michiel] alt=List of installed languages on my machine, includes Japanese, Norwegian, Danish, and more. https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/yN9HptUA/Screen%20Shot%202016-08-01%20at%2012.50.17.png
  196. [jv] It is strange that Hindi is not available to download in my Mac
  197. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 11:56
    [michiel] https://twitter.com/MichielBijl/status/760081559768670208
  198. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Aug 01 12:00
    ++
  199. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 12:03
    [jv] and i need to first find how to install hindi in my mac
  200. [jv] @jamesmtownsend: you might find this useful too http://accessibility.voxmedia.com/
  201. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 12:18
    [jamesmtownsend] @jv: thanks!
  202. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Aug 01 12:18
    Hi slackers.
  203. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Aug 01 12:27
    pkra!
  204. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 12:33
    [michiel] Nothing else Math-ers
  205. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Aug 01 12:34
    Hi folks. Long live vacations.
  206. Quick question:
  207. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 12:35
    [michiel] Long ⨉ no see?
  208. [michiel] I'll stop…
  209. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Aug 01 12:35
    ah, sorry. I edited this on gitter. It's "Long live vacations" :)
  210. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 12:36
    [michiel] Ahh, yeah that doesn't come through on the IRCs
  211. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Aug 01 12:36
    is there any discussions about a kind of "aria-summary", i.e.,
  212. a secondary label (or id) that provides a summary for the subtree?
  213. I would have thought that SVG folks might have been thinking about it.
  214. "the front of a red house" (with its children having more details such as "a black door with a window")
  215. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 12:37
    [michiel] A sort of string version of aria-describedby?
  216. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Aug 01 12:38
    Hm... Maybe I just never understood describedby :)
  217. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 12:38
    [michiel] There is the opposite: http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#aria-details
  218. [michiel] Ahh
  219. [michiel] pkra: isn't that just the title?
  220. [michiel] Or possible the aria-label of an SVG?
  221. [michiel] possibly*
  222. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Aug 01 12:40
    My example wasn't very good.
  223. I think.
  224. let me see...
  225. Ok, now you got me stuck reading up on details and back on describedby :(
  226. :D
  227. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Aug 01 12:48
    and now I have to read up on accessible name computation.
  228. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 12:49
    [michiel] AAM to the rescue!
  229. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Aug 01 12:55
    Hm...
  230. michiel, do you know if ATs expose options to switch between aria-label/describedby/details?
  231. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Aug 01 13:05
    ok, maybe aria-details is what I'm after, michiel. I'll experiment. Thanks!
  232. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 13:06
    [michiel] Not sure about others, but in VO label is read immediately and describedby is read with a delay.
  233. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 01 13:15
    I don't believe they do
  234. you get whatever the engine has decided is the acc name
  235. unless the browser does it
  236. these are cool ideas for svg (charts) https://www.w3.org/wiki/SVG_Accessibility/ARIA_roles_for_charts
  237. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 14:08
    [artistic_abode] For the popular decorative video banners that play automatically with content over them, I've been suggesting we not do it but at least requiring a pause button to pause the animation for WCAG 2.2.2. Should these silent videos also be audio described in lieu of alt text that would appear if these were static images? What do you think would be appropriate alternate content for these?
  238. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 15:07
    [michiel] Re earlier discussion about languages in VoiceOver: https://twitter.com/cookiecrook/status/760127934669565952
  239. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 01 15:46
    @artistic_abode I wouldn't audio describe them. The fact that there's content on top of them means most people can't figure out what the hell they're showing anyways, except how to add bleach and bathroom cleaner to our eyes
  240. I mean, there can be arguments made for describing "atmosphere" things, but unless one of these background videos really improves and enhances the feelings instead of making us want to throw our computers out the windows, I'd say no.
  241. @michiel @jv any response about adding Hindi from zee twitters?
  242. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 15:51
    [michiel] No, just that the ‘enhancement’ hasn’t made it into macOS.
  243. [jv] @stommepoes - no
  244. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 16:36
    [jv] https://twitter.com/aardrian/status/466746831100465154
  245. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 16:42
    [jv] Why do people expect from other people to be an expert in a tool which is not free?
  246. [michiel] Because it's an industry standard maybe?
  247. [michiel] Not saying I agree, saying that might be why :)
  248. [jv] and this encourage software piracy
  249. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 16:48
    [jv] If a job asks for JAWS expertise and job seeker use OSX, it might not be possible for him to buy JAWS to practice it
  250. [jv] And Windows user can’t buy a mac just because a job asks Voiceover expertize
  251. [jv] And I don’t even know what a Linux user would do
  252. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Aug 01 16:57
    wine
  253. I dunno how well jaws would run under wine
  254. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 16:59
    [jv] Which Screen reader’s expertize has more demand? Voiceover or Jaws or something else?
  255. [michiel] You can argue in an interview that expertise with any screen reader should suffice. As long as you're confident with the concept of a screen reader you should be able to pick up another one and make it do stuff with little to no effort
  256. [jv] ok
  257. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Aug 01 17:05
    should, yes, but having expertize in specific ones helps. It's good to know the quirks in each of them
  258. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 17:05
    [kate] our linux/mac people tend to run windows VM's to use Jaws... we only support Jaws here not Voiceover
  259. [kate] I ended up having to get a separate windows laptop to use Jaws bc I'm a mac user
  260. [jv] @kate: Do you charge companies to test their websites on Jaws?
  261. [jv] Is that the main business of your company?
  262. [kate] No... we are just a company who tests our stuff on Jaws

  263. [jv] What did you mean by

    we only support Jaws here not Voiceover

  264. [kate] We guarantee all our products will work on Jaws but we make no claims on how they work with Voiceover
  265. [jv] and your clients are ok with that?
  266. [michiel] Brian: of course, and there is a trial mode for home use. Although I don't think you can really get familiar with JAWS in the time that trial gives you.
  267. [michiel] I am fairly sure that you can convince a company of your chops if you can show you're good with VoiceOver/NVDA/Orca/what have you.
  268. [kate] Haha they have no choice. I dont know how much research has been done in that area. I have seen statistics that Voiceover usage is increasing so maybe our higher ups will change our policies eventually.
  269. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Aug 01 17:10
    oh agreed. The trial mode isn't designed for that I thought. Unless you actually used it for every day life
  270. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 17:11
    [michiel] No not for testing, but for trying it out for a bit so you can somewhat familiarise yourself with it.
  271. [michiel] But maybe not more so than reading up on the different key combinations.
  272. [jv] http://take.ms/EGWzn
  273. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Aug 01 17:12
    from what I remember of the latest webaim survey, iOS had more users than Android for mobile users that needed AT support
  274. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 17:13
    [michiel] jv: can you please add alt text when you post images?
  275. [michiel] Or some resource where there is a text version of it available :)
  276. [jv] Done
  277. [michiel] Thanks!
  278. [michiel] Could you repost the text though? Because edits don't come through in either Gitter or IRC when you make an edit in Slack.
  279. [michiel] Also doesn't work from Gitter to Slack I believe.
  280. [jv] Web AIM 2015 Survey results for the question Which of the following is your primary desktop/laptop screen reader?
    Jaws is leading with 30.2%
  281. [michiel] thumbsup emoji
  282. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 17:20
    [jv] @jamesmtownsend: in 2015 Web AIM Survey only %14 said that they never use “Skip to content” link http://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey6/#skip
  283. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Aug 01 17:57
    Do those 14% never use it because they don't like it, or because devs forget to program it?
  284. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 18:03
    [jv] when it is available
  285. [michiel] Does VoiceOver announce the number of items in a list / navigation landmark when role=presentation is used? https://twitter.com/MichielBijl/status/760173788906520576
  286. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 18:08
    [michiel] Or without the self marketing O:): https://dir.rawr.eu/research/role-presentation.html
  287. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 18:21
    [jv] Watching @marcysutton talk right now https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkbyP-OJRgw
  288. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 01 18:56
    If I have a <progress> element and inside a fallback div which also has a role="progressbar" manually written inside, for supporting browsers/AT am I now performing role-ception?
  289. Do I have a progress role with a progress role child?
  290. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Aug 01 18:58
    Yikes
  291. That seems invalid
  292. Like that <header><div role="banner"></div></header> code
  293. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 01 18:59
    I wonder if indeed that's the case.
  294. This code is meant for, if a browser doesn't understand <progress> then it would at least render the div inside.
  295. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Aug 01 19:00
    Right, but if it doesn't understand <progress> it probably also doesn't get the role
  296. I'd say TITS
  297. That looks wrong. Try It To See
  298. My argument is that role=progressbar is a native role for the <progress>, so any AT that understands that role, would also know what a <progress> is, or it wouldn't know about the role in the first place.
  299. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 01 19:03
    looks like he got code from a csstricks page
  300. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 01 19:09
    It does say in the specs about what can be inside progressbars is flow content but not more progressbars.
  301. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Aug 01 19:10
    It seems overkill anyhow
  302. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 01 19:19
    Not one place do I see an example of a label with a progressbar even though it's considered a "labelable" element.
  303. In fact the example in the spec is like
  304. <p>Progress: <progressbar.../></p>
  305. I would thing the word Progress would go in a label? if not, why not? How would I know when a label is a good thing to use? The ARIA specs here https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#progressbar mention if you're updating a part of the page, point to it with labelledby.
  306. So, no use cases or examples anywhere with a label on a progressbar.
  307. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 19:39
    [michiel] I think <progress role=progressbar>Sorry your shitty browsers hasn't made any progress</progress> would be what you want if you need support for older stuff.
  308. [michiel] Although I'm not sure there is a difference between role=progressbar and <progress> support.
  309. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 01 19:40
    I assume they are the same
  310. but I'm thinking we're going to be breaking this rule with the current code Content model:
    Phrasing content, but there must be no progress element descendants.
  311. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 19:41
    [michiel] Yeah and what's the point of having a separate progressbar role thing?
  312. [michiel] Besides it being invalid…
  313. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 19:47
    [michiel] jkva: I think we need a TRAP.
  314. [michiel] Test Results As Proof.
  315. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 01 19:48
    Well but while the spec can say it's illegal that doesn't mean any of my SRs will puke
  316. obviously no browser pukes as this is a much-used technique from the famous CSSTricks
  317. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 19:51
    [michiel] You can shoot Chris a message, he's very responsive to a11y stuff it seems.
  318. [michiel] https://twitter.com/chriscoyier
  319. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 01 19:54
    He didn't write the article, but if I find out something definitive I'll mail him.
  320. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 19:55
    [michiel] :)
  321. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 01 19:59
    Of all the versions of progressbars I see with any kind of labelling text, it's always a div with a class of label or similar. Never a <label>
  322. maybe no browser supported it
  323. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 20:00
    [michiel] Hmm, not sure, haven't made any native progressbars.
  324. [michiel] Might be able to test it this evening/week.
  325. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 01 20:01
    I'm going to be testing both the one from csstricks and I'll see what the mobile support is... I don't think we're supporting IE 9 therefore desktopwise we shoudln't need the div.
  326. also gonna see if the label does anything
  327. I'm not sure if that's meant for the kinds of labels I'm seeing
  328. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 20:02
    [michiel] I read “for the kids of labels” :')
  329. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 01 20:08
    <label>brats</label
  330. /el/el>/
  331. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 20:10
    [kate] well if it's not meant for the labels i'm sure it's not meant for their kids either
  332. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 20:34
    [marcysutton] Try It To See is probably not the best thing to use as an acronym ;)
  333. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 21:00
    [michiel] jkva is well known for his not suitable for children acronyms.
  334. [michiel] Although, arguably, Try It To See is very suitable for kids.
  335. [marcysutton] Nope
  336. [marcysutton] I would recommend not using it in here again...or anywhere remotely work-related for that matter
  337. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 21:07
    [michiel] No I wouldn't recommend that either.
  338. [michiel] How is life at Deque?
  339. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 22:55
    [marcysutton] life is good! Working on extensions and talks, pretty much my happy place :)
  340. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 01 23:10
    [michiel] Glad to hear it :)