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A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 3rd of August 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 00:09
    [robdodson] @marcysutton: what's the preferred combo on Mac? Firefox and VoiceOver?
  2. [robdodson] i have a hard time getting firefox to even work with voiceover. it always seems to lock up on me
  3. [marcysutton] Safari and Voiceover
  4. [marcysutton] Firefox doesn't work with VO at all.
  5. [marcysutton] those native platform features work a little better together :p
  6. [marcysutton] That's why I have hope for Edge and Narrator
  7. [marcysutton] Though I have a lot of respect for the folks at NVDA
  8. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 00:16
    [michiel] VoiceOver works sort of with Firefox
  9. [michiel] Wouldn't recommend it, but it works.
  10. [michiel] bkardell: your voice still doesn't fit your face :P
  11. [michiel] Or maybe it does. I only ever see your self portraits…
  12. [michiel] Context: Brian giving a talk here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v-Qe7CsUxA
  13. Ian Devlin
    @iandevlin
    Aug 03 07:22
    Good morning all.
  14. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Aug 03 07:25
    o/
  15. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 07:33
    [michiel] yawn
  16. Ian Devlin
    @iandevlin
    Aug 03 07:37
    I just realised that I only ever seem to come in here and say hello when I want something, which is a bit rude. So, sorry :D
  17. And I currently don't want anything.
  18. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 07:38
    [michiel] Well that has got to be a first.
  19. [michiel] >:)
  20. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Aug 03 07:38
    heh
  21. Ian Devlin
    @iandevlin
    Aug 03 07:39
    Hmph :worried:
  22. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 07:41
    [michiel] hugs iandevlin
  23. Ian Devlin
    @iandevlin
    Aug 03 07:41
    haha
  24. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 07:43
    [michiel] I'm a good hugger, just ask jkiss.
  25. [jkiss] @michiel speaks the truth. Firm, but without pain.
  26. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 07:48
    [michiel] <3
  27. [michiel] How are the sheep?
  28. [michiel] Saw you got some lambs now.
  29. [michiel] I tried to count them, but I fell asleep…
  30. [jkiss] yeah, the lambs! Just wonderful, thanks. They're too cute. One female, one male. Gonna have to fix the guy :( Or maybe not. But probably yes :(
  31. [michiel] Are they silent?
  32. [michiel] Never the less, they are cute :D
  33. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Aug 03 07:52
    _<
  34. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 07:54
    [jkiss] They make cute little bleats. You can hear one in the short clip at https://mobile.twitter.com/jkiss/status/760678594859282432
  35. [michiel] Ahw <3
  36. [jkiss] Actually expecting a few more in the next week or so.
  37. [michiel] If you get enough of them you can get the band together and have them play ada.
  38. [michiel] Lamb-ada: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyLdoQGBchQ
  39. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Aug 03 07:56
    Did any of the duck eggs hatch @jkiss?
  40. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 07:58
    [jkiss] Nope. The ducks just lay them and leave them. Neighbor has an incubator though, so at some point we'll try to grow some more ducks.
  41. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Aug 03 07:58
    Nice
  42. Can never have enough ducks
  43. Just keep an eye on the pigs and make sure they don't start a revolution of any sort
  44. I think that's what got Old Macdonald
  45. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 07:59
    [jkiss] Doubt that's true, but I dig your duck passion.
  46. [michiel] alt=Duck bath toy at CERN's ATLAS control center https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/ht3zU589/IMG_0676.jpg
  47. [jkiss] Wasn't that Animal Farm? With the pigs? That's the main reason we don't have any.
  48. [michiel] It is called DACQ: short for Data Acquisition
  49. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Aug 03 08:02
    Yeah. Pigs and Trotskyism don't mix
  50. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 08:16
    [michiel] Nice one: <button tabindex="-1"> </button>
  51. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Aug 03 08:32
    @MichielBijl I've done that from time to time.
  52. Sometimes there is more than 1 control which does the same thing. Taking one or more out of the keyboard sequence makes it more efficient for a keyboard user.
  53. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 08:36
    [michiel] Sure. But in that case something like <button tabindex=-1 aria-hidden=true>Proper label</button> would be appropriate.
  54. [michiel] It was a the play button of a video player in this instance.
  55. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Aug 03 08:39
    Don't always want aria-hidden on them. Often yes but I've had cases where I want to take it out of keyboard navigation but still want it to be accessible to screen readers etc via button list etc.
  56. But yeah. Play buttons are pretty important. There could be a keyboard shortcut to do the same thing but you would need to ensure that your users knew it (and it worked in combo with AT). But there could be a reason they have done that.
  57. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 08:43
    [michiel] There are some key shotcuts, just not documented on the page/website :')
  58. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Aug 03 08:45
    Yeah. Common problem.
  59. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 10:55
    [nimgrg] Hey guys new here, just going to throw in a question. I recently did some work for on making a Modal accessible and it was quite a challenge. There are couple of scenarios where there could be another Modal on top of the existing Modal and frankly I find it really painful having to make Modal on top of the another accessible. What other pattern’s can I suggest to my designer so that we can avoid this scenario. The Modal on top of another Modal is basically used to notify user of connection drop or backend fails. Thanks
  60. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 03 10:55
    Made the product manager of another team happy-- she was trying to get VO to work with Firefox ("It's reading the controls but none of the text!")
  61. We've got modals on modals
  62. or, not yet but we will
  63. it's a "drawer" that slides out from the side. I decided it needs to be a single-context thing, like a modal. If the user clicks any links inside it, they open another "drawer" (meaning the old one needs to lose focus and go away like th rest of the page)
  64. is that anything similar to what you're doing?
  65. because a notify seems more like... an alert?
  66. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 10:58
    [nimgrg] Yes the first Modal is a slider and has some checkbox and radio controls which fire off actions on the backend. If there are any connection drop we show a Modal at the center of the screen.
  67. [michiel] Could be an alert inside the dialog.
  68. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 03 10:59
    It's what I'd do... we're going to have swomething more similar to what you describe
  69. for some reason the designers freaking love modals
  70. so they want one for image upload
  71. we'll need an alert for any 500's or whatevers
  72. when the user presses "upload"
  73. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 10:59
    [michiel] It's Golden Earring's new hit: Modal Love
  74. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 03 10:59
    if we get a 200 back we'll just close the modal and let the page have an alert stating all-cool
  75. The radio's playing that forgotten song
  76. Brenda Lee, Comin On Strong
  77. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 11:00
    [michiel] Nice
  78. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Aug 03 11:00
    Radar <3
  79. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 03 11:00
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEtbin9pwSc
  80. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 11:00
    [nimgrg] @michiel: by alert do you mean the using window.alert
  81. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 03 11:01
    We're planning live regions
  82. although I'm so uncomfortable with those not making it to braille displays
  83. found that out only via Marco in a conversation and I was like, zomg
  84. There's already a bunch of live region role=alerts and alertdialogs on these pages about status and errors and things
  85. If it makes sense to move focus to this "success" one after a user has submitted a photo though, that'll workbetter.
  86. I can't get live regions working reliably with NVDA and JAWS on various browsers
  87. NVDA may read some twice, or may read the old copy of a live region who'se had a change
  88. JAWS is ok on FF, of course IE doens't pass anything useful on
  89. I hope to get a surface next month or so, want to do some testing with Edge on a native machine
  90. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Aug 03 11:05
    Np
  91. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 03 11:06
    It's probably stupid for me to spend money on a MS machine when work has VO/Saffy as a testing set we want to pass, but I just don't want to buy anything apple
  92. besides, full testing would mean both OSX and iOS, they work so differently
  93. P should just buy me iThings.
  94. @marcysutton also have high hopes for Narrator. On my phone, it seems to get stuck in certain apps, where the phone kinda freezes and the main buttons aren't available, so have to reboot phone to get out :(
  95. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 11:22
    [michiel] @nimgrg: I mean role=alert
  96. [michiel] http://w3c.github.io/aria-practices/#alert
  97. [nimgrg] Ah cool, so I guess the solution would be to have a notification or alert within the modal and avoid overlapping the modal
  98. [michiel] That's what I would suggest, yes :)
  99. [michiel] More on modals/dialogs: http://w3c.github.io/aria-practices/#dialog_modal
  100. [nimgrg] thanks
  101. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 11:42
    [michiel] Does anyone know a lot about Windows Phones here?
  102. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 11:52
    [jv] i have used a windows phone for a year
  103. Léonie Watson
    @LJWatson
    Aug 03 12:08
    @Michiel I believe the magnification is pretty good on Windows Phone, but beyond that I don't know much.
  104. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 12:12
    [michiel] Thanks Léonie. Although I was more trying to get info on which one to get for testing :P
  105. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 03 12:12
    narrator runs on it ok but not on certain apps like WhatsApp
  106. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 12:12
    [michiel] Lumia 650 looks quite alright and isn't too expensive.
  107. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 03 12:13
    If you just want a cheap one, get from the 500 series
  108. I almost got a 520
  109. lumia
  110. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 12:13
    [caesar] @michiel last time I tested a Windows phone it flat out refused to work with the app I was testing, and let's say it wasn't the app's fault...
  111. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 03 12:13
    I ended up with the 730 "selfie" phone because better screen contrast and dual-sim
  112. most apps that supposedly "run" on windows phones aren't made to actually do so
  113. meaning stuff sits offscreen, unclickable things, no panning etc
  114. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 12:14
    [caesar] We just bought the cheapest Nokia device we could find. I think it was a Lumia 520.
  115. [michiel] caesar: was that Windows 8 or 10?
  116. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 03 12:14
    the Vodafone app is an excellent example... total shit
  117. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 12:14
    [caesar] @michiel at the time it was Windows Phone 8
  118. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 03 12:14
    if it was bought before jan or feb of this year, it's 8
  119. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 12:14
    [michiel] I want one that runs 10 and has a decent processor.
  120. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 03 12:14
    they were gonna roll out 10 forever and I never got an update if they did
  121. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 12:14
    [caesar] But the 520 had enough RAM to be upgraded to 10, but I haven't been bothered to go back and do it
  122. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 03 12:14
    ok 10 would not run on some of them
  123. not the 500
  124. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 12:14
    [michiel] No point in buying it if I have to throw it out in a year.
  125. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 03 12:15
    the 650 was on their list of being able to run 10
  126. and of course all the ones higher than that too
  127. Léonie Watson
    @LJWatson
    Aug 03 12:15
    I'd imagine that any phone you bought new now would be Win10.
  128. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 03 12:15
    but some of the 500's were not on the list
  129. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 12:15
    [michiel] Yeah the 650 runs 10.
  130. [michiel] 640 still only runs 8.1 I think.
  131. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 03 12:15
    I wonder if I have to seek out an update?
  132. my version was on the list as "being able to upgrade to 10" when 10 was still being planned to come out for phones.
  133. but if you're just buying it for testing, be aware that even MS is planning on phasing out support for nokias
  134. So, in a few years, there may be no new ones anyway
  135. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 12:17
    [michiel] Hmm, yeah, well, I just want one to test Narrator etc with.
  136. [michiel] Also looking into Android devices.
  137. [michiel] That's an even bigger mess compared to picking a Windows Phone…
  138. [caesar] Ugh. Don't even get me started on Android. I recently discovered that not only have Samsung forked Talkback, they've forked their forked version of Talkback on the more recent devices
  139. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 03 12:18
    ew, why
  140. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 12:18
    [michiel] Argh
  141. [michiel] Well, I'm looking for something that runs stock Android.
  142. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 12:27
    [caesar] Yeah, just get a Nexus :)
  143. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 03 12:30
    :P
  144. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 12:31
    [michiel] Yeah probably need to get a used one of those.
  145. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Aug 03 12:33
    I had a Moto Style, but I THREW IT ON THE GROUND
  146. Should have it back in two weeks \o/
  147. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 12:36
    [michiel] That's what you get when you use them.
  148. [michiel] Found in the wild: <img ng-src="…" add-alt-tag aria-hidden="true" src="…">
  149. [michiel] Cappuccino time!
  150. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 03 12:44
    angular, ug.
  151. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 12:46
    [michiel] And no <alt> te be found :')
  152. [michiel] Also no alt attribute for that matter.
  153. [michiel] For the Dutch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZMBM10MFwU
  154. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Aug 03 13:20
    re win phone - i have a 640 for testing which i upgraded to win10
  155. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 13:26
    [michiel] Oh cool! How is it working out for you?
  156. [michiel] Does it have Cortana?
  157. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Aug 03 13:28
    probably... been a while since i turned it on. Not much demand for testing on win phones
  158. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 13:30
    [michiel] You can send it my way if there is no need for you to keep it O:)
  159. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Aug 03 13:31
    I think I'll need to get a new windows phone for testing. I doubt my Lumia 520 will get 10
  160. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Aug 03 13:31
    you can buy them for $30 in the US on a PAYG plan and get them unlocked for free.
  161. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Aug 03 13:31
    Win phone seems to be the easiest to do high contrast of any mobile device
  162. 30? Damn, I paid $100 for my 520 3 years ago
  163. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Aug 03 13:34
    you have to wait for a deal... the 640 go-phone seems to be OOS everywhere too.
  164. The Cricket wireless one is not as easy to get unlocked as the AT&T version
  165. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Aug 03 13:38
    I got mine from AT&T and have never used it on anything other than wifi. Haven't paid for anything beyond htat
  166. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Aug 03 13:39
    (same here) but I unlocked it anyway... always handy to have a spare phone.
  167. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 03 14:36
    I never worry about locking here
  168. BTW Cortana is even on the 8.1 phones
  169. you just have to allow MS to get your info
  170. so i didn't turn it on
  171. but it's available.
  172. they do like Samsung-- want your voice sent to them for improving Cortana
  173. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 14:53
    [michiel] Argh
  174. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Aug 03 15:01
    I'm surprised Samsung doesn't have its own voice assistant. I know that it has driver mode, but that's not the same.
  175. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Aug 03 15:19
    slackers...
  176. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 03 16:21
    Samsung has Nuance tech for its tv's
  177. they'll prolly add it to their phones at some point
  178. Does anyone else find the meter element, as-is, the most useless thing evar? https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/meter
  179. Seriously, wtf is that supposed to be
  180. those examples are terribly
  181. terrible.
  182. You wouldn't use a meter to state the heat setting on an oven!
  183. You'd use it for something like "this is page 3 of 5"
  184. showing th first 3 units filled and the other two empty, like a static progressbar
  185. if "supporting" browsers are going to show a little weird bar instead of the text, I can't see the use of this
  186. meter_MDN.png
  187. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 03 16:27
    alt=MDN website showing the output as "Heat the oven to [image of a half-filled bar]."
  188. You do get the text if you highlight, copy and paste it. But that still limits its usefulness.
  189. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 16:33
    [michiel] Heat the oven to half a bar! Makes total sense.
  190. [michiel] Switch the channel to half a bar!
  191. [michiel] Quick, give me half a bar of glasses!
  192. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 16:52
    [michiel] You'll have to image the angular crap for yourself, but who comes up with this stuff: 
    <li role="checkbox" aria-checked="true" tabindex="1">     <label>         <input type="checkbox" name="checkbox_button">         <p>4. What specifically attracts you to our company?</p>          <span class="tickmark cs-tickmark ng-binding" title=""></span>     </label> </li>
  193. [scottohara] what the...
  194. [michiel] That was my reaction too :P
  195. [michiel] We don't need no native semantics let the mother fucker burn, burn, burn mother fucker, burn!
  196. [scottohara] i heard you like checkboxes. so we made a custom check box and then put a regular check box inside of it so that we could have double the checkbox for ya
  197. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 16:57
    [michiel] Haha :D
  198. [michiel] (it's not an accessibility issue because the support for the custom thing is good. It's just one of those what the hell moments.
  199. [scottohara] it’s another example of a lack of understanding of basic markup
  200. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 17:03

    [scottohara] and reactive coding.

    this didn’t solve the problem? keep throwing crap at it until the problem is solved. be damned that by solving the problem, i’ve actually introduced bloat and unnecessary elements

  201. [michiel] Well, HTML is very hard to do apparently :P
  202. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 03 17:32
    reactive coding: "voiceOver keeps saying "3" before the text in the h3, so we fixed it by making it a div"
  203. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 03 17:32
    [scottohara] exactly
  204. [scottohara] or, from something i saw while looking through some design/dev feeds this morning
  205. [scottohara] someone made an “accessible, responsive table"
  206. [scottohara] but what they really did was just make a flexbox grid of divs and put h3s as the first elements of the visual rows
  207. [scottohara] because “voice over wasn’t relaying what i thought should be announced when using the <th> element"
  208. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 03 18:07
    for this reason I feel if we're going to encourage devs to test with a screen reader, they need required training (basics anyway) to know A: how it works (so they know what's a bug or not) and B: how most regular users tend to use it.
  209. the second one's a bit harder but not impossible.