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A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 19th of August 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 00:22
    [michiel] Whereabouts in Europe?
  2. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 06:18
    [almerosteyn] Loved, loved LOVED Stranger Things. @michiel yeah agreed, if ever there was a series that needed to end and end good this was it.
  3. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 19 08:38
    Too bad Marce isn't around the first week of oct... could do a role-drinks
  4. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 09:54

    [m_j_robbins] Hi all, I’ve just joined so thought I’d introduce myself. I’m Mark and I’m an email developer.

    I’m trying to push a11y in email and it’s starting to take off. It’s something that hasn’t really been discussed in the email dev community much in the past.

    I’ve just published this article, I’d be interested to hear any thoughts you have, I’m pretty new to all this accessibility stuff so looking to pick up a few tips from this group.

    http://blog.rebelmail.com/accessibility-in-email-part-ii/

  5. Fiona Holder
    @FionaHolder
    Aug 19 09:57
    Hi Mark, I'm relatively new here myself but welcome :)
  6. The two articles look good, the one thing I'd suggest is maybe a brief intro to what a screen reader is would help? Just to give readers a sense of why they are putting role=presentation on things and who that benefits
  7. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 10:01
    [m_j_robbins] Good point, cheers.
  8. [m_j_robbins] Also I’m wondering if anyone has an opinion on what role (if any) to use to wrap the email in?
    role=“article" or role=“group” maybe?
  9. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 10:36
    [michiel] Hi Mark, welcome :) Are you the dude that built a shopping experience within an e-mail?
  10. [michiel] And also the presentation in which you showed that :P
  11. [m_j_robbins] Hi @michiel yup, that’s me. Was good to meet you in Amsterdam.
  12. [michiel] To answer your question: if it is stand alone you don't need to wrap it. Any HTML doc has an implicit role of document. Within you can use banner (for the header), main (for the main content), and contentinfo (for the footer area).
  13. [michiel] Likewise Mark :)
  14. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 10:41

    [m_j_robbins] My concern is in webmail you already have things like main and header set for the containing page.

    Then they set a role around the email code that is inconsistent between email clients.

  15. [michiel] Ah, well, it could hurt to add the document role yourself; you're allowed to have nested documents.
  16. [michiel] An iframe is an example of that.
  17. [m_j_robbins] Outlook.com uses role=“document”
    Yahoo uses role=“main”
    Gmail uses role=“listitem"
  18. [m_j_robbins] Ok cool so would role=“document” essentially rest it back to default as if it were open on it’s own page?
  19. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 10:47
    [michiel] You can see it that way, yeah :)
  20. [m_j_robbins] +1
  21. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 19 10:49
    Arent emails already readably text?
  22. I mean, that's where I use role=document-- to tell AT there's documenty texty stuff
  23. lets the AT know the user should be able to use AT keypresses or touch controls, instead of the AT passing all keystrokes/touches directly to the application
  24. I kinda think to improve email accessibility simply necessitates some work from the email client vendors. I dunno if devs can do this alone.
  25. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 10:52
    [m_j_robbins] I’m talking to email client vendors too, I have good contacts at Outlook and Yahoo and a loose Gmail contact I’m trying to build
  26. [m_j_robbins] Email clients strip code out, add things in, and are full of strange bugs. So my plan is to override as much as possible to get some consistency and overall better user experience for people using AT.
  27. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 10:57
    [michiel] I'm reading up on role=document now. Seems Safari exposes iframes as “HTML content” rather than “document”
  28. [michiel] I still think it's the most appropriate role. The main role could be a fallback, but then you're more likely to have nested mains, which isn't a good thing.
  29. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 19 11:02
    agreed
  30. BTW did RebelMail get a stiff increase in customers after CSSDay? :P
  31. I keep typing RebelYell
  32. arg
  33. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 11:03

    [m_j_robbins] Yahoo mail has nested mains :(

    Cool I’ll tell the email devs to use document +1

  34. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 19 11:04
    michiel, is there a cross-browser error state browsers/clients do with nested mains? like, ignoring one automatically?
  35. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 11:04
    [m_j_robbins] Yeah we got a bit of a bump in traffic but not many customers from that.
  36. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 19 11:04
    You know how they've got unified error rendering for HTML errors
  37. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 11:04
    [michiel] m_j_robbins: thumbsup emoji
  38. [michiel] StommePoes: don't think so.
  39. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 19 11:05
    hm
  40. That might be something for vendors.
  41. to consider
  42. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 11:05
    [michiel] I vaguely remember someone saying AT will happily skip to the next main if there is one.
  43. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 19 11:06
    I got a Tegel sticker yesterday from Paul van Buuren: "Kiezen is een keuze"
  44. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 11:08
    [michiel] Haha
  45. [michiel] “Choosing is a choice”
  46. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Aug 19 11:19
    @StommePoes re JAWS it does some nasty hacking. From what we could figure out they detect MathJax and then use it to extract its internal format and override everything. I can't imagine how you'd do this without injecting JS (which seems terrible) but I'm not an expert. It might be worth a try to render MathJax server-side instead.
  47. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 11:19
    [michiel] pkra: so you're coming to role=drinks in Amsterdam :O
  48. [michiel] Are you doing a talk about maths?
  49. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Aug 19 11:31
    Can we count on it? :P
  50. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 11:36
    [michiel] Out…
  51. [michiel] gives jkva a hat
  52. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Aug 19 11:37
    :(
  53. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 11:37
    [michiel] What? You're getting a free hat!
  54. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Aug 19 11:39
    http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/southpark/images/4/4c/FreeHat05.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100420182426
  55. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 11:40
    [michiel] Haha
  56. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 12:26
    [michiel] Does anyone have a short introduction as to why colour contrast is important?
  57. [jv] https://accessibility.blog.gov.uk/2016/06/17/colour-contrast-why-does-it-matter/
  58. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 12:31
    [michiel] Thanks!
  59. [michiel] Sent an e-mail to the folks over at http://photoshopetiquette.com
  60. [michiel] They could use some contrast :)
  61. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 12:36
    [jv] and this is good short video with real life examples https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UAu3U3CGMY
  62. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Aug 19 14:11
    I don't know why, but the preview image for that video makes me believe that she is a comedian that is about to roast someone
  63. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 14:20
    [jv] ha ha
  64. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 19 14:21
    indeed
  65. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 14:22
    [michiel] Roasting all the people that don't apply good contrast ratios?
  66. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 14:29
    [karlgroves] Anyone from Sweden here?
  67. [michiel] Hej
  68. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Aug 19 14:34
    Børk
  69. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 14:35
    [michiel] Hur kan jag hjälpa dig?
  70. [michiel] changes his name to Mikkel
  71. [karlgroves] The Dutchmen have been eating too many pot brownies, I see
  72. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Aug 19 14:37
    Define "too many"
  73. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 14:38
    [karlgroves] If it is weed from NL, I think 1 is too many compared to the crap they have in MD
  74. [michiel] What you need a Swede for anyway?
  75. [karlgroves] Just doing some market research.
  76. [michiel] You could contact Funka; they'd probably be happy to help :)
  77. [michiel] Not sure I've seen Swedes in here anyway
  78. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 14:43
    [karlgroves] Tenon actually has a fair # of customers from Scandinavia, which is interesting.
  79. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 15:27
    [shawn.henning] Does anyone have an accessibility contact at Facebook? Latest update of iOS STILL does not surface time, date, or location of an event to Voice Over. Among numerous other things that are not surfaced...
  80. [karlgroves] @george_zamfir might know the answer to that question
  81. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 15:40
    [shawn.henning] Thanks Carl! The FB thing enrages me due to all the coverage of the useless "auto caption" feature. Especially once I learned that "contains text" is text often entered by the user which they do not bother to surface.
  82. [michiel] shawn.henning: your best bet is probably Matt King.
  83. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 15:46
    [michiel] His e-mail is at the top of the APG :)
  84. [shawn.henning] @michiel: Is he on on this site? Did not see him with an at ref.
  85. [shawn.henning] Sorry, what is the APG?
  86. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 19 16:12
    isn't Jesse Beach also FBer?
  87. authoring practices guidelines?
  88. https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/
  89. I didn't realise it but DigitalOcean uses pa11y
  90. https://www.digitalocean.com/company/blog/faster-and-more-accessible-the-new-digitaloceancom/
  91. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 16:31
    [michiel] StommePoes: right, she's there too :)
  92. [shawn.henning] Thanks all... (Notices latest Slack has broken opening links for Voice Over users again...)
  93. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 16:48
    [marcysutton] @michiel: to answer your question from yesterday I'll be in Prague and London in September. Had some other opportunities but I kept it to the two for my life's and my dog's sake
  94. [michiel] Ah cool :)
  95. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 17:03
    [marcysutton] those talks will get me back into Angular heavily, as they are about testing in ng1 and ng2
  96. [marcysutton] right now i'm focused more on React
  97. [marcysutton] just now realizes September is two weeks away
  98. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 17:50
    [michiel] Whoever thought this was the right way to do it: https://twitter.com/MichielBijl/status/766692263489658885
  99. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 18:03
    [kate] that's hilarious
  100. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 18:10
    [michiel] Just noticed I forgot the question mark in the first sentence. Ah well.
  101. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 18:18
    [jdan] have :focus styles always stuck around after clicking an <a> tag? I knew that was true of <button>s, but I didn't know <a>s kept focus after a mouse click
  102. [karlgroves] Well… it shouldn’t, because the <a> element should be used to navigate, at which point focus goes to the new resource
  103. [jdan] @karlgroves good point, we are <a role="button">ing at the moment, which makes me sad
  104. [karlgroves] Even in that case focus should go to whatever makes sense based on the action triggered by the button. In some cases, staying on the button is fine. It kinda depends on what it does
  105. [karlgroves] Long story short - yes, focus stays put unless shifted on purpose
  106. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 18:46
    [marcysutton] Sounds like button focus hell
  107. [marcysutton] https://marcysutton.com/button-focus-hell/
  108. [marcysutton] Which in part prompted CSS Input Modality...you can make mouse users happy with a handy polyfill by @alice and @bkardell https://github.com/alice/modality/blob/master/src/keyboard-modality.js
  109. [marcysutton] That is a good point though, clicking either of those elements should move focus elsewhere...but it comes up often enough that people think it's a bug
  110. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 18:51
    [michiel] A toggle button shouldn't move focus.
  111. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 18:58
    [marcysutton] it depends what it's toggling...a popup menu would send focus into the first item in a dropdown thingy
  112. [marcysutton] but if a user toggled it closed with the mouse, they might see the custom focus style persisted
  113. [shawn.henning] Thank you everyone who helped me get to a contact at FB. I think I was able to provide important details.
  114. [michiel] That would be a popup button no?
  115. [michiel] Toggle button from the APG: Toggle button: A two-state button that can be either off (not pressed) or on (pressed). To tell assistive technologies that a button is a toggle button, specify a value for the attribute aria-pressed. For example, a button labeled mute in an audio player could indicate that sound is muted by setting the pressed state true.
  116. [michiel] Important: the label on a toggle button should never change when the state changes. In this example, when the pressed state is true, the label should not change to "Unmute"" or "Muted."
  117. [shawn.henning] Anybody here do work on the updated Chase website? Ran into issues this AM paying bills with Voice Over focus being moved and weird stuff with error states.
  118. [marcysutton] ahh yes popup button != toggle button
  119. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 19 20:39
    But not my accordions, they just hide/show text.
  120. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 20:39
    [karlgroves] but do they work on Lynx?
  121. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Aug 19 20:39
    unless we're starting to recommend more that these "panes" of things get a tabdinex=-1 and we start regularly moving focus to them... I coulds see that hapenning
  122. Karl: yes, because the "hidden" content is simply available anyway
  123. I use w3m which is like lynx and I see hide/show button/anchors regularly, they're fine.
  124. Just don't do anything when you click them.
  125. WORKS IN LYNX; MEANS I GET A BEER
  126. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Aug 19 20:58
    [michiel] Someone, somewhere, has a slider for birth year in their form.
  127. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Aug 19 21:01
    I really really hope that we don't do this in any of our products