Archive index

A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 8th of September 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 08 02:48
    [michiel] yawn
  2. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 08 02:54
    [caesar] What time is it where you are?
  3. [michiel] 3:55 AM
  4. [caesar] Yikes
  5. [michiel] Finishing up some work. Then catching some sleep before taking a 4 hour train ride at 10 :')
  6. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 08 05:01
    [michiel] That took longer than expected…
  7. [michiel] Night y’all
  8. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Sep 08 08:21
    Morning y'all
  9. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 08 08:57
    [michiel] ‘elli
  10. [michiel] O
  11. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Sep 08 09:00
    Dude wtf, how can you be awake
  12. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 08 09:18
    [michiel] Magic
  13. [michiel] There is testing to be done!
  14. [michiel] We do what we must because we can.
  15. Fiona Holder
    @FionaHolder
    Sep 08 09:58
    morning!
  16. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 08 10:16
    [michiel] waves at Fiona
  17. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 08 11:45
    [michiel] Whoop whoop, my Monzo card is on the way! Very interested to see how accessible the app is :)
  18. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 08 14:17
    [david_caldwell] Unless they've changed it recently I wouldn't get too excited :(
  19. [michiel] Ahw :( The sign up process was largely accessible.
  20. [michiel] I'll do an audit and send that to them.
  21. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    Sep 08 14:21
    Don't make me slap you with a fish.
  22. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 08 14:33
    [michiel] Why would you slap me with a trout?
  23. [michiel] All I ever did to you was impersonate you to get free beer.
  24. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    Sep 08 14:36
    If it's mostly accessible let it be. There is plenty of inaccessible stuff to complain about.
  25. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 08 14:37
    [michiel] That was just the sign up process, haven't tested the app yet. Need to get my card in the mail first.
  26. [michiel] If I want to spend my time auditing an app, why would you want to stop me? You got something against accessibility or something, huh? Damn you Luis!
  27. [michiel] slaps garcialo around a bit with a large salmon.
  28. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 08 14:45
    [michiel] Seeing how it's a bit tense in here, recommended listening: Ziggy Marley - Forward to Love.
  29. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    Sep 08 14:51
    Hah
  30. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 08 14:52
    [michiel] Great song though.
  31. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 08 16:00
    [garcialo] Before I start googling, does anyone happen to know the name of the EU policy/resolution thing that will make more than government sites be accessible?
  32. [garcialo] or, request they follow WCAG…not necessarily be accessible
  33. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 08 16:07
    [michiel] I've been trying to find that since it was launched. I have since given up.
  34. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 08 16:21
    [garcialo] But it is being done right? I feel like I had heard that it was something that was happening
  35. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 08 16:33
    [garcialo] This is the best I’ve found so far: https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/pillar-vi-enhancing-digital-literacy-skills-and-inclusion/action-64-ensure-accessibility-public#Article
  36. ABM-Dan
    @ABM-Dan
    Sep 08 17:05
    Say I have a set of previous-next links, and in some pages I want to display them, but in a disabled form (first and last element), what's the appropriate markup for the not-really-links?
  37. ( I have a <a href="javascript:void(0);"> to replace)
  38. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 08 18:31
    [stephenwyattbush] https://uxdesign.cc/the-inaccessible-web-how-we-got-into-this-mess-7cd3460b8e32#.aky666tbt
  39. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 08 18:37
    [drakenhart] ello ello ello
  40. [drakenhart] thanks for the invite
  41. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Sep 08 18:44
    o/
  42. What's your story @drakenhart
  43. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 08 18:46
    [drakenhart] I've known about wcag when it was 1.0 back when the blink tag was a thing.
  44. [drakenhart] I've followed it as a hobbyist at first. Then for more into as time
  45. [drakenhart] Went by... I'm come from the artsy design end of things, but got into code later in college.
  46. [drakenhart] I work now as a ux ui designer as a contractor, and am my current team's a11y poc.
  47. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Sep 08 18:50
    Nice
  48. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 08 18:50
    [car] \o
  49. [car] welcome
  50. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Sep 08 18:51
    @drakenhart hop by on http://www.roledrinks.nl/ if you're in the neighborhood
  51. Of course I'm assuming you're Dutch/Belgian by your nickname - correct me if I'm wrong
  52. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 08 20:13
    [drakenhart] @jkva nope that's an unintentional error on my part. Long story.
  53. [drakenhart] @car: thAnks
  54. ABM-Dan
    @ABM-Dan
    Sep 08 20:14
    Don't worry, most of humanity is accidentally not Dutch/Belgian
  55. It happens.
  56. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 08 22:25
    [car] @garcialo @michiel, I think you might be looking for EU Mandate M/376? Here's a link: http://www.cencenelec.eu/standards/Sectors/Accessibility/Pages/default.aspx
    If you expand "European legislation and mandates", you can find the M/376 pdf. (Wow, it was published in 2005).
    If you click on "Public Procurement" on the Accessibility page, you can read a bit more, and click on "ICT products and services – Mandate M/376" for a bit more.
    Then you can summarize what you've learned and report back here... ;)
  57. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Sep 08 22:30
    Anyone ever made an accessible color picker?
  58. I'm looking to make something a bit like the HSV picker at http://demos.telerik.com/kendo-ui/colorpicker/keyboard-navigation
  59. So the sliders are easy but what role would I put on the "4-way"slider at the top? I'm thinking the only approriate thing is role=application with an appropriate aria-roledescription. The question then is what do I update for the value
  60. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 08 22:37
    It almost looks more like a grid in function
  61. letting me arrow around willy nilly
  62. @ABM-Dan I've used buttons for next/prev, since in my cases they were like carousels etc and Did Stuff rather than taking people somewhere... they could have a disabled state
  63. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Sep 08 22:39
    that would be rather a large grid!
  64. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 08 22:39
    but if yours don't fit that, it might make sense to have them simply not be there.
  65. James: it is already a rather large grid
  66. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Sep 08 22:39
    not really - it is more like a 4-way slider :)
  67. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 08 22:39
    If I spy a colour with my little eye, it can take me a lot of clicks to get to it :)
  68. Léonie Watson
    @LJWatson
    Sep 08 22:40
    jnurthen do you know if there is a list of the roles that cause applications mode by default anywhere? Like tablist for example.
  69. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Sep 08 22:40
    I think calling it a grid would be confusing. it would also be an astonishing amount of markup
  70. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 08 22:40
    they even do the same thing as our grids: if you keep going off the edge horizontally you go to the next or prev row, but vertically you remain
  71. That's because grids are currently crappy markup.
  72. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Sep 08 22:40
    @LJWatson I think that is up to the screen readers
  73. Léonie Watson
    @LJWatson
    Sep 08 22:41
    Interesting. Thanks JNurthen
  74. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 08 22:41
    So if you want to do sliders, you have a separate slider for each row? That's a lotta sliders
  75. Yeah drag n drop was triggered as application in NVDA/FF but not JAWS/IE when I tested one from Ian Pouncy
  76. however it was possible that it was really NVDA picking up on some mouseover listeners that were coded in instead.
  77. So to get JAWS to work we needed to force application mode and that sucked because it wasn't needed for others
  78. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Sep 08 22:42
    @LJWatson ARIA doesn't define that - but I imagine most of the widget roles do
  79. except button and link :)
  80. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 08 22:42
    that makes sense
  81. LJWatson @LJWatson nods. That's what I'm looking through atm.
  82. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Sep 08 22:44
    @LJWatson we should ask the friendly folks at NVDA (or look at their source code!)
  83. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 08 22:44
    According to @jkva it's C++ written by people who get no benefit from formatting :P
  84. ie veryHardToRead
  85. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Sep 08 22:44
    heh - yeah
  86. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 08 22:45
    The Python is probably another story
  87. interesting, the active state of the colour picker goes away if I use a mouse wheel to scroll the page
  88. however my focus isn't lost-- next tab goes to the next focusable as expected
  89. Léonie Watson
    @LJWatson
    Sep 08 22:46
    From back/packet testing it seems that combobox, grid, menu, menubar, toolbar, tablist, tree and treegrid seem to do it in Jaws and NVDA.
  90. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Sep 08 22:46
    (that is not my color picker - just one i found that has similar behaviour)
  91. and application of course :)
  92. Léonie Watson
    @LJWatson
    Sep 08 22:47
    Indeed :)
  93. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Sep 08 22:47
    aargh blocked from w3c again :(
  94. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 08 22:48
    I have a photo of a frustrated man shaking his hands at his computer you could use as avatar @jnurthen
  95. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Sep 08 22:49
    i'm guessing textbox should too right?
  96. slider
  97. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 08 22:49
    I hope sliders do, we're expecting not to need to manually add app mode to ours
  98. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Sep 08 22:49
    spinbutton?
  99. listbox
  100. radio/radiogroup?
  101. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 08 22:50
    now you're listing native inputs
  102. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Sep 08 22:50
    (not sure about that last one)
  103. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 08 22:51
    contenteditable?
  104. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Sep 08 22:51
    no - not listing native inputs.... aria roles
  105. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 08 22:51
    hm but in radio is it the role or the fact that it's recognisd as an input?
  106. as it did before we had aria but OS did have roles
  107. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Sep 08 22:52
    if i do a fake radio with no input i still need arrows to move my focus to previous/next item
  108. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 08 22:52
    we know fake checkboxes accept spacebars right?
  109. Léonie Watson
    @LJWatson
    Sep 08 22:53
    Not sure about radio/checkbox, since native behaviour is not to automatically use forms mode these days. The rest seem likely though.
  110. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Sep 08 22:53
    they should, but screen readers don't tend to intercept space so not a big deal
  111. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 08 22:53
    they did on my drag-n-drop :(
  112. super sad pandas :(
  113. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Sep 08 22:53
    yeah
  114. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 08 22:53
    the saddest
  115. most crying
  116. much tear
  117. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Sep 08 22:53
    well I use ctrl+C/X/V for drag and drop or popup menus
  118. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 08 22:54
    Those are new to me
  119. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Sep 08 22:54
    cut/copy/paste
  120. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 08 22:54
    we would have to add it to our instructions, which are currently:
    tab to items, space to "select", enter to drop
  121. I dunno if I can safely JS those keystrokes
  122. control cross-OS is a bit notorious...
  123. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Sep 08 22:55
    i guess educational stuff is different. for us drag and drop is normally a secondary interaction ontop of something else
  124. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 08 22:55
    Macs using weird keys
  125. yeah this is basically matching
  126. and with pure keyboard it's beautiful
  127. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Sep 08 22:55
    yeah - i figured
  128. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 08 22:55
    works easily
  129. but put AT in there and the keys stop working :(
  130. and the pandas wail and gnash their teeth... and celebrate being taken off the endangered species list... but go back to being very, very sad
  131. or was it Threatened list? whichever
  132. I had to fill in a matching drag and drop captcha
  133. for the Kali linux forums
  134. zomg it's so terrible
  135. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 08 22:57
    [michiel] car: yeah, the most recent I could find was published in 2012. Even at the W3C we do better than that.
  136. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 08 22:57
    even with a mouse, it's often nearly imposisble to "grab" the correct picture. That on top of oeverything is super tiny, impossible to tell if that's fish scales or a pizza
  137. I tried about 30 times
  138. the 31st time I got through
  139. hate
  140. and it's not focusable at all with keyboard, not even the audio captcha
  141. I suspect it's really that they don't want so many newbies asking for help on their forums more than fear of spam.
  142. Michiel, will there be whisky at role-drinks?
  143. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Sep 08 23:01
    @LJWatson https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/blob/0bd25507e8ae6839f1da03a90401a9c59affc24f/source/browseMode.py#L205 Looks like the routine in NVDA which deals with passthrough
  144. shouldPassThrough
  145. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 08 23:09
    fun code :(
  146. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Sep 08 23:10
    yeah - i bet they wish they didn't have to write code like this:

  147. Menus sometimes get focus due to menuStart events even though they don't report as focused/focusable. 

        if not obj.isFocusable and controlTypes.STATE_FOCUSED not in states and role != controlTypes.ROLE_POPUPMENU:         return False
  148. whenever there is a comment like that it always feels like a giant cheesy hack
  149. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 08 23:22
    [stephenwyattbush] For those of you who work on an a11y team or task force within a product organization, I’m curious how your team is structured, and how you’d structure it in an ideal world. For context, I’m starting an a11y team at Airbnb
  150. Léonie Watson
    @LJWatson
    Sep 08 23:25
    @stephenwyattbush will your a11y team be responsible for working with other teams, or directly responsible for a11y itself?
  151. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 08 23:26
    [stephenwyattbush] Ideally we’ll work with other teams to help them make their features accessible, but we’ll also contribute to our core UI library
  152. Léonie Watson
    @LJWatson
    Sep 08 23:26
    BTW this is serendipity... I just tried a few moments ago to make my first AirBnB booking (I'm a screen reader user), but wasn't able to :(
  153. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 08 23:26
    [stephenwyattbush] I think we’ll be better served as a force multiplier than as a team trying to fix everything by ourselves
  154. Léonie Watson
    @LJWatson
    Sep 08 23:26
    +1
  155. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 08 23:27
    [stephenwyattbush] oh wow! I would love to hear more from you about that experience. My goal is to make booking via screen reader possible by the end of October, and to move on to other parts of the product from there
  156. [stephenwyattbush] and eventually reach wcag aa across the product
  157. Léonie Watson
    @LJWatson
    Sep 08 23:27
    One approach is to have people within your team who specialise i different areas - design, content writing, dev etc.
  158. But a really key thing isn't the structure of your team, so much as giving other teams the knowledge/processes/whatever they need.
  159. It's really late here in the UK, so I need to disappear off the grid now. If you'd like to drop me an email to tink@tink.uk I'd be happy to describe my recent experience if it'd help though?
  160. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 08 23:29
    [stephenwyattbush] Good to hear, thanks for sharing, ljwatson! I will reach out to you
  161. Léonie Watson
    @LJWatson
    Sep 08 23:29
    If @jnurthen is still around, he'd be a good person to talk to about a11y in large orgs.
  162. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 08 23:29
    [stephenwyattbush] thanks very much, i’ll reach out to @jamesn as well
  163. Léonie Watson
    @LJWatson
    Sep 08 23:30
    Cool :) Good luck - and I'll look forward to hearing from you.
  164. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Sep 08 23:31
    @stephenwyattbush Happy to talk some time. Just heading home now though.