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A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 15th of September 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Sep 15 00:07
    I always did love the Google Translate video for Bohemian Rhapsody
  2. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Sep 15 00:17
    And woo, did the 508 refresh really start in 2006?
  3. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 15 00:17
    [karlgroves] yup
  4. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Sep 15 00:18
    How did it take a decade?
  5. I was thinking there may have been multiple updates since then and I just couldn't find an official finish date for one
  6. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    Sep 15 00:23
    You say "did" as if it was complete.
  7. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Sep 15 00:26
    True. I am giving today's announcement a bit more importance
  8. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 15 00:26

    [karlgroves] 2006 the Access Board formed the TEITAC committee. Chaired by Mike Paciello and Jim Tobias, it also included a huge number of people from gov, edu, org, private business, and tech industry. Their goal was to come up with new tech standards to replace current 508.
    2008 TEITAC committee issues its final report to Access Board.

    From there, Access Board took the report and started down the road to issuing a revision. That was sort of derailed a little bit. One of the problems of something like 508 is that it reinvents the wheel in a lot of ways. For instance, why discuss telecommunications accessibility when there are already telecomm a11y standards? Why discuss web accessibility when there are already a11y standards.

    So in 2010 the Access Board (re)started the rulemaking process with a revision that uses “Incorporation by Reference” for other pre-existing standards like WCAG.

    From there… there’s nothing on the record to discuss the delays

    [more coming]

  9. [karlgroves] The process is (roughly):

    Advanced Notice of Proposed Rulemaking
    comment period
    review comments
    make any necessary changes
    Notice of Proposed Rulemaking
    comment period
    review comments
    make any necessary changes
    Proposed Rule
    comment period
    review comments
    make any necessary changes
    Final Rule
    Drink Beer

  10. [karlgroves] Note: NONE of those steps are actually mandated by law
  11. [karlgroves] A whole bunch of regulations use less steps. Short comment periods, etc.
  12. [karlgroves] [more coming]
  13. [karlgroves] The Access Board took a looooooong time throughout this process. They did all of those steps. Had long comment periods. Took a long time to process and respond to comments. Really long.
  14. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 15 00:31

    [karlgroves] I’m unaware of any publicly available information that discusses why they did this, so everything is just speculation at this point.

    Some people suggest that outside influence played a part in this, for varying reasons. One of those reasons is that large multinational corps. like IBM, Oracle, Microsoft and others have to not only comply with US law but other country’s laws too. So having different standards all over the place is a mess

  15. [karlgroves] Some companies - specifically Microsoft - had made a public push to essentially trash 508 and have the US adopt a EU standard. I’m glad to see that this did not succeed
  16. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Sep 15 00:35
    Hasn't most of the world based things on WCAG 2?
  17. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 15 00:35
    [caesar] Yeah, from an Australian perspective, Section 508 is basically nothing.
  18. [karlgroves] Yup. One of the huge successes of WAI is their work to push standardization.
  19. [caesar] But the Australian Human Rights Commission has observed that WCAG 2.0 is not sufficient for entities to meet their obligations under the Disability Discrimination Act
  20. [caesar] So basing things on WCAG2 is still a bit off, especially given its age
  21. [caesar] But it's better than nothing
  22. [karlgroves] Next week is the TPAC meetings. You should get in touch with anyone you know who is going and press them to update WCAG
  23. [caesar] I once heard a rumour there was a WCAG 2.1 being released in 2017
  24. [caesar] LOL
  25. [karlgroves] There were discussions around “extensions” to the spec. There’ve been discussions about a WCAG 3. No clue what they’re planning to do, but there are some gaps that sure need to be addressed and delaying that process doesn’t help
  26. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Sep 15 00:39
    Oh woo, what dues Australia need that's different from WCAG?
  27. We may be gaining a client in Australia and I've been pushing us hard to get everything to WCAG, not just 508. I assumed Australia was WCAG based so I didn't look into things there.
  28. I do think there are a lot of newer tech that may not have guidelines in WCAG. Notificaitons, VR, vibration, etc
  29. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 15 00:46
    [caesar] https://www.humanrights.gov.au/world-wide-web-access-disability-discrimination-act-advisory-notes-ver-41-2014
  30. [caesar] Section 3.1: "It should be emphasised, however, that accessibility of web content cannot always be achieved solely through compliance with WCAG 2.0. In addition to these Guidelines, web designers and authors will need to make themselves familiar with a range of tools, resources, and emerging best-practice solutions, as they meet their accessibility goals and responsibilities under the DDA and the Convention. This is particularly the case in areas that are not comprehensively addressed in WCAG 2.0, such as the needs of people with cognitive disabilities."
  31. powrsurg
    @powrsurg
    Sep 15 00:53
    Yeah, that makes sense. Basically, think of ways an interface could not work for someone and try to make it work for them.
  32. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 15 07:06
    [michiel] Good morning good people of glitterslack :)
  33. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Sep 15 07:26
    gittersack#
  34. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 15 07:53
    [michiel] Ha!
  35. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 15 07:59
    [david_caldwell] Anyone at Tech Share in Glasgow today / tomorrow ?
  36. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 15 08:08
    [michiel] Anyone at Accessibility Scotland tomorrow?
  37. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Sep 15 08:23
    Paging @pkrautz, @pkrautz to main engine room, please
  38. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 15 08:25
    [michiel] What is the mattermatics?
  39. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 15 11:39
    [david_caldwell] @michiel: where's that being hosted ?
  40. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 15 11:52
    [michiel] Good question.
  41. [michiel] Summerhall, Edinburgh
  42. [michiel] http://accessibility.scot
  43. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 15 15:32
    [jimmieego] Question: I have a <span> element written like this: <span class="license-level-badge" aria-label="Level 1">1</span>. VoiceOver reads it as “Level 1, Group” and offers option to go inside the group. Is there a way to prevent this? I am not sure if <span> is the most appropriate html element for this kind of situation, but I cannot think of a better one. Thanks!
  44. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 15 15:51
    [car] @jimmieego probably needs a role. What is it? Is it a heading? A status region?
  45. [jimmieego] @car it is a status indicator
  46. [car] Maybe role="status" ? See if you like how that would play: https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#status
  47. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 15 16:01
    [jimmieego] It now says “Level 1, Status” but still offers option to go inside the status. But I think it is definitely better than “group”. :)
  48. [car] Did you add the aria-controls attribute?
  49. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 15 16:10
    [marcysutton] Hi @gokatgo!
  50. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 15 16:16
    [gokatgo] Hola, @marcysutton!
  51. [marcysutton] Welcome to our a11y hangout =D
  52. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 15 16:22
    [gokatgo] Thank you! glad to be able to bend the ears of a11y experts. :)
  53. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 15 16:34
    [michiel] jimmieego, sounds like <p> to me.
  54. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 15 16:40
    [jimmieego] Changing it to <p> and setting aria-controls still have that option to go inside. The <span> is styled by the “license-level-badge” as a circle with the text “1” inside. So we don’t want the user to go inside the circle and just read the text again.
  55. Thierry Koblentz
    @thierryk
    Sep 15 18:22
    Could someone answer this one for me please:
    https://twitter.com/thierrykoblentz/status/776470774563508226
  56. I thought a tablist could only contain tabs but that example use tablist on the whole widget...
  57. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 15 19:27
    [jhausler] @thierryk another reason why some (myself included) don’t agree with the use of tab structure for accordions.
  58. [jhausler] i recommend just a series of expando/colapsos.. like this. http://codepen.io/SiTaggart/full/qZGewE/
  59. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 15 19:53
    [jiatyan] https://i.redd.it/uadb8nrr0okx.jpg <-- failed
  60. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 15 20:18
    [michiel] thierryk: I wrote something similar on the common panel proposal: bkardell/common-panel#45
  61. [michiel] Although, does it really matter? From a user perspective that is?
  62. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 15 20:34
    [jhausler] ok.. so why are there 3 ARIA recommendation docs? http://w3c.github.io/aria-practices/, http://w3c.github.io/aria/practices/aria-practices.html, and https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/
  63. [jhausler] which is the latest, and can someone please remove the bad ones?
  64. [michiel] jhausler: the first one is the Editor’s Draft (actively worked on), second one is the old repository (will be removed/forwarded soon), last one is TR on w3.org, the “official” version if you will.
  65. [cordelia] @michiel, which do you recommend pointing developers to?
  66. [jhausler] and which one should i build my product based on?
  67. [michiel] For TR, it’s refreshed every 6 months or so before it goes to REC (recommendation)
  68. [jhausler] TeRrific
  69. [michiel] Personally, I’d go for the GitHub one (http://w3c.github.io/aria-practices/), it’s always the most up to date.
  70. [michiel] And AT are working with the ARIA WG to implement stuff as it goes into it.
  71. [michiel] Also, the one on TR still has a lot of ARIA 1.0 stuff in it, this has since been removed in the GitHub version.
  72. [michiel] jhausler: TerRible?
  73. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 15 20:40
    [jhausler] what is TR really though?
  74. [cordelia] Does TR stand for Technical Reports?
  75. [michiel] Technical Reports :)
  76. [michiel] Aye
  77. [jhausler] k
  78. [sitaggart] So, differences between http://w3c.github.io/aria/practices/aria-practices.html and http://w3c.github.io/aria-practices/, for example Tree Grid seems to be removed. Deprecated? In the works? Should never have been a thing?
  79. [jhausler] i’m weary of all of it to be honest. I usually get 1 chance to have my dev teams build components properly. If we get it wrong, or the spec changes, i’m looking at 1-2 years to get it changed.
  80. [michiel] Matt King recently removed all the stuff that was “just” cluttering up the spec. We intend to get to it. We need to focus on the release of ARIA 1.1 and APG 1.1 now. We have a roadmap—or milestones rather—on GitHub if you're interested :)
  81. [sitaggart] yup, link me please
  82. [michiel] So anything that was removed will make its way back into the spec. Just remember that it's basically 8-10 people writing the darn thing.
  83. [michiel] https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues
  84. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 15 20:45
    [michiel] If you click milestones it should take you there. Can't get there from my phone apparently.
  85. [michiel] I can send the proper link in a bit. Out having a smoke ;)
  86. [michiel] jhausler: I get that. ARIA is an evolving thing, and thus so is the APG. That said, the APG outlines the best practices, something it said 2 years ago might not be the preferred way now, but would still be accessible.
  87. [michiel] Or at the very least more so than a bunch of divs with classes…
  88. [jhausler] fair enough. thanks.
  89. [sitaggart] I'm not sure if it's just me, and I'm super appreciative of these docs, they're a great help to me, but I sometimes feel I have no idea what's currently going on with them. Like, it's a bit "behind a slightly open door". Not behind a closed door, an open one, but you forgot to tell anyone you opened it.
  90. [sitaggart] Or I missed the memo, kind of thing
  91. [michiel] Come one come all! The door to the APG is wide open!
  92. [michiel] :P
  93. [michiel] It's on GitHub to try and get more people involved. I'm actually doing a talk on the subject tomorrow.
  94. [michiel] I'll link to slides here.
  95. [sitaggart] and I get that it's a small group, the GitHub stuff is a brilliant idea. The new examples in the repo will be excellent, I might even contribute to some if I can find them again
  96. [sitaggart] awesome
  97. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 15 20:50
    [michiel] But I get what you mean, it's often that people simply don't know it exists :(
  98. [michiel] That would be awesome if you contributed sitaggart! Even bugs reports and the like really help!
  99. [michiel] I'll be adding one for tabs and toolbar tomorrow.
  100. [sitaggart] yeah, I think that's the main problem. That latest version of aria-practices came out of no where just now
  101. [sitaggart] blew my mind
  102. [sitaggart] And for those playing at home, those examples I speak of that accompany the new practices docs, are here? https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/tree/master/examples
  103. [cordelia] ^ :0
  104. [cordelia] That’s awesome!
  105. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 15 20:57
    [michiel] sitggart: they're currently on my machine, but they will be there tomorrow :D
  106. [sitaggart] Yup, just in general so people know the others exist
  107. [michiel] The tabs one is ready, you can check it out somewhere.
  108. [michiel] looks for link
  109. [sitaggart] and the other practices and examples, found in the main aria repo? https://github.com/w3c/aria/tree/master/practices ?
  110. [sitaggart] dead?
  111. [michiel] https://dir.rawr.eu/research/tabs/tabs.html
  112. [michiel] Yeah we moved to a separate repo few months back.
  113. [michiel] I need to edit that tabs thing though. Hang on.
  114. [sitaggart] Can you update the README in the old repo then, or do something with it. It's confusing as hell to have duplicates that offer different advice
  115. [michiel] +1
  116. [michiel] I'll add a note
  117. [sitaggart] Thank you, my friend
  118. [sitaggart] much appreciated
  119. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 15 21:04
    [michiel] No problem :)
  120. [michiel] Darn typo…
  121. [michiel] While I fix that, this is the last tabs widget code example: https://dir.rawr.eu/research/tabs/
  122. [michiel] You can delete the last tab per spec.
  123. [michiel] What isn’t in the spec—but what I might propose—is that you can move focus to the tab content via option/alt+m
  124. [michiel] There’re plans to remove the old repo/contents, but I’ve heard it is going to be forwarded, and that there is some stuff to figure out on how to do that best.
  125. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 15 21:14
    [sitaggart] ^^ that'd be just as good. Just save well intentioned folks looking at stuff they shouldn't or isn't current that's all
  126. Thierry Koblentz
    @thierryk
    Sep 15 21:51
    @MichielBijl @jhausler Thanks for your replies. As a side note, I don't agree with the tab structure for Tab Panel either. Tablist was brought into the picture for the wrong reason (styling purpose) and now we have a discrepancy in markup between tabpanel and accordion when the code for those 2 should be identical in my opinion. I'm working on a solution that solves that problem, and others...
  127. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 15 22:04
    [michiel] Thierryk: I'd be interested in reading that.
  128. Thierry Koblentz
    @thierryk
    Sep 15 22:07
    @MichielBijl I'll make sure to post a link asking for feedback about the implementation, as I'm sure I'll screw-up with aria attributes somehow ;)
  129. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 15 22:08
    [michiel] Sounds like a plan thumbsup emoji
  130. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 15 23:10
    [caesar] Re: the github stuff, I know I may be a bit of a douchebag to suggest this, but http://stackoverflow.com/documentation/accessibility might be an antidote to the restrictive "standards" environment
  131. [michiel] You douche >:)
  132. [michiel] No, accessibility is universal, and thus I don’t think there is one true source. Standards are important though.
  133. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 15 23:15
    [caesar] Yeah... I like the idea of the SOD site because it has the potential to be a fast-moving code repository for patterns that work right now vs waiting for the official standards
  134. [caesar] What is it they say about the one you have being better than the one you don't?
  135. [michiel] My only wish is for all of those people to contribute to the APG :P
  136. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 15 23:27
    [caesar] Maybe it's a publicity thing? This morning is the first time I've even heard of it!
  137. [caesar] APG = ARIA Authoring Practices... Github? Group?
  138. [caesar] Google was no help
  139. [michiel] Yeah, publicity is a good point. I’m doing a talk on it tomorrow :)
  140. [michiel] I try to spam it here as much as I can before Steve boots me.
  141. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 15 23:34
    [caesar] LOL
  142. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 15 23:53
    [jiatyan] Will screenreader users be bothered by long lists? E.g. Here are the 80 departments, and here is another list of 200 degree programmes?
  143. [jiatyan] Kind of takes away their ability to just show all links, but they are in logical groups.
  144. [caesar] Should be able to skip past them
  145. [caesar] E.g. JAWS has a Win+END to skip to end of list
  146. [jiatyan] lovely! thanks!