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A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 29th of September 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. Thierry Koblentz
    @thierryk
    Sep 29 05:14

    https://twitter.com/thierrykoblentz/status/781260936971714560

    Feedback welcome as I've always doubts when adding ARIA roles/attributes/states.

  2. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 29 10:36
    [michiel] You can match it to the APG example ;)
  3. [michiel] Good morning slackers.
  4. Thierry Koblentz
    @thierryk
    Sep 29 10:48
    @MichielBijl the thing is that this one is a hybrid, it is both a tab panel and a accordion based on identical markup. So we're not sure it makes sense in both cases depending on context
  5. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 29 11:46
    [jpdevries] I know of OpenDyslexic, does anyone know of or have any favorite typefaces with a11y considerations?
  6. Thierry Koblentz
    @thierryk
    Sep 29 11:47
    This message was deleted
  7. @jpdevries I read somewhere that these don't really work, do they?
  8. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 29 11:49
    [dean] http://www.assistiveware.com/product/keedogo Keedogo, an app that we at AssistiveWare do use OpenDyslexic
  9. [jpdevries] @thierryk I've read that as well. Don’t remember where
  10. [dean] https://bdatech.org/what-technology/typefaces-for-dyslexia/ - few more fonts mentioned here
  11. Thierry Koblentz
    @thierryk
    Sep 29 11:50
    yeah, I think there are no real studies about their supposed benefits
  12. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 29 11:52

    [dean] "In the meantime, there is some related research that is noteworthy. For example, peer-reviewed research findings have shown that there is a relationship for all readers between reading speed and the spacing of letters.

    The reason why spacing might affect reading has to do with how the presence of some objects (including letters) interferes with our ability to see some aspects of what we are viewing. This is referred to as “crowding.” It has been suggested that crowding occurs more in people who have dyslexia. It has also been suggested that reading text with greater spacing between letters improves reading ability in people with dyslexia.

    Should more studies turn up similar results, then it might make sense for more teachers and parents to use letter spacing to help struggling readers. However, it’s unlikely that fonts or letter spacing will help people with dyslexia a great deal.”

    https://www.understood.org/en/learning-attention-issues/child-learning-disabilities/dyslexia/is-there-a-certain-font-that-works-best-for-kids-with-dyslexia

  13. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 29 11:58
    There were some very small studies done where while some people could read faster with something like OpenDyslexic, others had trouble with it and read faster with Arial or whatever (likely because it what they saw the most and worked hardest to learn to use it, but that's my guess). I found the reference to those in comments to some older articles about OpenDyslexic.
  14. Also, they were making a clear difference between understanding of text and reading speed.
  15. I'm not sure why. I know many low-literacy people sometimes read quite fast-- but not with understanding, more skimming for word shapes they can recognise, to grab the quickest first thing they can find that they can use
  16. @jnurthen calling an image via content URL? I didn't because I used sprites. Those are possible, but unnecessarily difficult compared to spriting background images.
  17. If I use SVGs next time, I can't sprite anyway, so we'll just have a bazillion files for those. (yeah, I've seen the "build one giant hidden SVG and then reference the parts where needed with <use>", but some (now aging) tests I did with @michielBijl showed none of the title/desc stuff worked that way.
  18. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Sep 29 12:01
    Lasse Diercks entering in 5..4..3...
  19. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 29 12:01
    woo!
  20. Hey @steveFaulkner @MarcySutton a colleague of mine is looking into writing some docs for developers regarding gauging the accessibility of various frameworks, so if the dev knows a) what they need to do and b) if the framework can do that accessibly, maybe they'll stop choosing so many unfit frameworks for some task.
    She thought one or both of you had somewhere maybe a spreadsheet or a blog post listing references/resources we could point devs to, and I said I'd ask, because I can't remember. Sounds like something like that exists, but I haven't seen it recently.
  21. Fiona Holder
    @FionaHolder
    Sep 29 12:04
    The font I've seen is Dyslexie https://www.dyslexiefont.com/en/dyslexia-font/
  22. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 29 12:04
    One thing about this github/web setup is that it doesn't show who is or isn't in a room. Sometimes I see people greeting other people out of nowhere, and I'm guessing it's because they can see someone has entered?
  23. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 29 12:18
    [jv] when you reply to a tweet from twitter and add an image do you get an option to add ALT text?
  24. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Sep 29 12:18
    jv: yes, but it is a feature
  25. you need to activate it in settings
  26. @jv: https://support.twitter.com/articles/20174660
  27. You can't add it after you posted the tweet, though - you have to do it as you are composing the tweet.
  28. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 29 12:19
    [jv] twitter should allow to add ALT text even after tweet was posted.
  29. [jv] or it should have a setting which can be turned on by whoever wants “Prompt me if I’m posting an image without alt text"
  30. Srinivas Y
    @sri429_twitter
    Sep 29 12:22
    why doesnt control-pageup/pagedown keys not parrt of this doc. Keyboard Interaction doesnt mention these shortcuts.https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#tabpanel
  31. this doc mentions about it https://www.w3.org/wiki/TabPanel
  32. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 29 12:45
    Prolly not part of the doc because it doesn't work
  33. ctrl+pgUp/pgDn belongs to the browser, not any components inside
  34. So it's in some old docs, also I believe still erroneously in the "change year" rules for datepicker calendars
  35. it only works in Firefox if you only have 1 tab open and not at all in Chromium... or maybe the other way around
  36. Components need to restrict themselves to things the real application (in this case a browser) doesn't use, and that's difficult. Actually at my company the designers have redone the datepickers so that to change the year, you actually click the current year and get a whole different year selection, just to get around this issue.
  37. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 29 13:06
    [dean] Question time!! We have a sticky inpage navigation, for example it has three sections sec1,sec2 and sec3 (for example). If you are a keyboard user and you tab to the inpage nav and choose section 2, then it jumps down to #sec2 - if the focus is now on #sec2 and you tab back, is that okay that it doesn’t go to the inpage nav, but back up the page to the element above #sec2?
  38. Thierry Koblentz
    @thierryk
    Sep 29 13:12
    I'd say yes. That's how jump links work
  39. Srinivas Y
    @sri429_twitter
    Sep 29 13:13
    @StommePoes accordian in that doc recommends control page up/down. so dont think its erroneously done. also @thierryk example has implemented these keys. so devs follow that recommandation.
  40. Thierry Koblentz
    @thierryk
    Sep 29 13:16
    @sri429_twitter @StommePoes We implemented the keys because we wanted to follow the recommendation but for what it is worth I don't like that at all.
  41. Srinivas Y
    @sri429_twitter
    Sep 29 13:17
    @thierryk why so?
  42. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 29 13:18
    [dean] Thanks Thierry, that was my thought. My HTML5 skillz are a bit flaky nowadays, but is there a semantic element for secondary nav?
  43. Thierry Koblentz
    @thierryk
    Sep 29 13:18
    because I think we should not hijack these keys
  44. on top of that, tab panels never show that many tabs, so it's not even a big win for keyboard users
  45. Srinivas Y
    @sri429_twitter
    Sep 29 13:19
    agree but when there are more controls inside a tab panel it gets tough to change the tabs. there might too many shift+tab combo keys
  46. Thierry Koblentz
    @thierryk
    Sep 29 13:21
    this is why we included a "skip this widget" link - check our example and use the esc key
  47. To me, esc makes more sense than ctrl+pgUp/pgDn (more bang for your money).
  48. For secondary nav? Afaik, no
  49. Srinivas Y
    @sri429_twitter
    Sep 29 13:24
    +1 for the esc key.
  50. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 29 14:16
    I'm sorry but those keys do not work on my system for any tab panels
  51. unless I am using firefox and only have 1 tab open
  52. I never have only one tab open
  53. I'm not some kind of monster, i use my browser
  54. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Sep 29 14:17
    lol
  55. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 29 14:19
    So as a developer, I do not build things using keys that do not work on my system. I simply cannot. How would I test it??
  56. buy more computers I guess
  57. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 29 14:32
    There is something the creators are calling an accordion in a help widget we have (a very silly-narrow strip that slides onto your screen, which is already a bad idea but is the reason why they wanted an accordion in the first place). At first I thought I would turn their broken setup (doesn't work at all, some JS bug they made) into an actual accordion, but I've changed my mind: each "heading" they want clickable to show more info will just be a heading with a button inside and the button will be a simple disclosure widget, with the usual aria-expanded, aria-controls stuff and nothing else. No accordion setup at all.
  58. If all the other sections were required to close if one were opened, I would reconsider.
  59. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Sep 29 14:34
    @StommePoes that is the exact pattern that the accordion will have in the APG in the next version.
  60. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 29 15:07
    [car] Not sure if this is helpful, but maybe tabfolders and accordions could hijack Ctrl+PageUp and Ctrl+PageDown for tab/page switching? They are an alternate way to switch browser tabs, but nobody seems to know about them because they don't work in IE.
  61. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 29 15:32
    They're the only way I know to switch browser tabs... how else do you do it?
  62. Well in FF sometimes my focus goes to a browser tab and then tab or arrows does it
  63. but that's always by accident
  64. and it's only happened to me in FF
  65. @jnurthen how does the new/next version accordion deal with those where they act more radio-buttony? where opening any part of the accordion is supposed to close all other parts? Or is that not addressed and the dev just JSes it
  66. @car actually there's the ability to hit a number with ctrl but I never use that because I almost always have more than 9 tabs open. I used to use it to jump to the last tab but haven't done that in like a year
  67. Right now I have 36 tabs open
  68. Thierry Koblentz
    @thierryk
    Sep 29 16:47

    where opening any part of the accordion is supposed to close all other parts?

    fwiw, I think those are usability nightmares.

  69. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Sep 29 17:47
    just going to close the other parts I think. The user doesn't really have any choice in what happens - they want to expand a region to interact with it. if they want to interact with the other region again they would just expand it again. We will probably group all of the buttons in a container of some sort (probably just a labelled region)
  70. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Sep 29 17:52
    @car duh, I was getting ready for a presentation and was moving amonsgt tabs and didn't even realise I was using ctrl-tab by default... what I get for trying to actively think of how I do stuff :(
  71. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 29 21:02
    [car] @stommePoes: <chuckle> They say it's difficult to get experts to record their processes because they're often not even conscious of how they do things... ;)
  72. [car] Do you also use Ctrl+PageUp / PageDown to switch tabs? Or pretty much only Ctrl+Tab / Ctrl+Shift+Tab?
  73. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Sep 29 21:17
    [car] @stommePoes, I also want to say thanks for the whole control:focus+label discussion. The dev who wrote this control originally had a div wrapping a label/input & 2 spans. 5 elements for 1 custom switch. And then it was used in a bunch of places with custom css in each place. I might try stripping out the div someday, but I might just leave it, because I got it to work ok eventually. :)
    Remediation can be fun, because some days you can fix a lot of stuff. But other days, you trip over hacks that can take many many hours to make accessible.