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A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 10th of October 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 02:29
    [caesar] How different are VO+Safari between iOS and macOS? Other than user input method (e.g. gestures) is there much different between the two platforms?
  2. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    Oct 10 02:30
    Why not check on the same page with Safari+VO on both platforms?
  3. And navigate them the exact same way? next item, next item, next item
  4. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 02:31
    [caesar] Most of the time they seem similar. Wondering if there is any "formal understanding" acknowledging the (in)consistency between the two so that we can maybe streamline testing.
  5. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    Oct 10 02:32
    ah, gotcha
  6. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 02:32
    [caesar] I could do my own empirical experiments but it would definitely be trumped by an official stance, say, cough @cookiecrook cough hehe
  7. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Oct 10 08:14
    morning slackers :coffee:
  8. Job van Achterberg
    @jkva
    Oct 10 08:15
    Morning @pkra! Enjoyed meeting you in meatspace :)
  9. Peter Krautzberger
    @pkra
    Oct 10 08:15
    @job same here! Thanks for organizing role=drinks!
  10. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 10:26
    [michiel] you guys met at a butchers?
  11. [michiel] But yeah, was nice meeting you pkra :D
  12. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 10:49
    [car] nick briggs
  13. Carolyn MacLeod
    @carmacleod
    Oct 10 11:46
    (sorry - wrong keyboard. Deleted from Slack, but the robot won't let me delete from gitter. Please ignore).
  14. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Oct 10 14:49
    @cookiecrook was hoping MS was working on some standards for motion as so far I only really have the Apple guidelines and some articles for those
  15. I want animations to be part of our pattern library (consistancy, necessity) and then because I hate turning my keyboard into a puke bucket, the ability to turn at least the large ones off, on a component-basis.
  16. @caesar apparently, from what I hear from people I know who use, MaxOSX VO sucks with too many bugs, to the point that my friends had to flee back to windows... but still love their iPhones
  17. @ahmadshadeed nice blog start!
  18. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 15:44
    [beth] Anyone know of a good emulator for testing sites on mobile devices with screen readers without actually having to test on the different devices? (This is for Front End, before it goes to QA department who will use actual devices.)
  19. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 16:26
    [csantos] @Here hi guys, what do you recommend me to add accessibility support to a TABs component with the controls below the tabpanel?
  20. [kimberlymunoz] w3c has some recommendations: https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/#tabpanel
  21. [csantos] _taking a look…_ thanks @kimberlymunoz
  22. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Oct 10 16:56
    @csantos The latest editors draft has some modified content http://w3c.github.io/aria-practices/#tabpanel
  23. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 17:16
    [marcysutton] Please refrain from using @ for the whole channel, there are 953 members in here
  24. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 17:38
    [alice] I also recently discovered that you can mute at-here and at-everyone from the Notification Preferences for the channel, if you prefer. Since IMO they don't really have a valid use case in this channel, I did that.
  25. [marcysutton] i do that for some Slacks...but i still think it's important when you have this many members :)
  26. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 17:59
    [alice] What's important, sorry?
  27. [jiatyan] I'd venture that is it polite to not force a notification on the channel unless it is a real emergency.
  28. [jiatyan] Important to education people that it is good etiquette not to cry wolf unless it is necessary.
  29. [alice] I definitely agree! But I think in a channel as large as this one there will always be new people who haven't got that memo, and I don't think there is any valid use case for getting notified, so in case anyone else hadn't realised it's possible to mute those notifications (like I hadn't), I wanted to let people know :)
  30. [alice] I'd also prefer it if people didn't respond to and thus encourage those notifications, but that's also not under my control!
  31. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 18:04
    [jiatyan] Thanks to @alice, I learnt the mute option today. :)
  32. [alice] (Valid use case in the context of this particular channel. In more focused channels I can definitely see the usefulness!)
  33. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Oct 10 18:06
    I guess being a Gitter user has advantages. I don't think it has that feature.
  34. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 18:06
    [alice] Hah, nice
  35. [csantos] oops, sorry for that, I did not know. Thank you guys for the memo ;)
  36. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 18:16
    [marcysutton] i meant it's important to discourage use of it so every user doesn't have to go and mute
  37. [marcysutton] trying to multitask too much :p
  38. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 18:24
    [cordelia] Ooh perhaps we could add a SlackBot that auto-replies when someone at-mentions here.
  39. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 18:34
    [backwardok] question on best practice for error messages on form fields that show on blur - is the error text something that would be best to put inside an aria-live region? and if so, is it important enough that it should be assertive instead of polite?
  40. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 18:43
    [alice] Ooh looks like team owners can adjust global notification settings - any team owners in here? @marcysutton ?
  41. [marcysutton] ooh i am i am! hehe
  42. [marcysutton] i'll go take a look
  43. [alice] =D
  44. [marcysutton] done! I have restricted @ channel usage to Team Owners and Admins. Note to self, use sparingly =D
  45. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 18:49
    [marcysutton] That option means team members (you all) will no longer be able to mute. Hence the sparing use
  46. [marcysutton] we could still probably use a SlackBot for the word "guys" :p
  47. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 19:24
    [alice] yeah, a *-ist language reminder bot would be A++
  48. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Oct 10 19:43
    Question for the group: in Heydon's modal examples, he's got some tabindices kinda all over (on the dialog itself and on the doc-role div inside). Is that necessary if your modal is not an alertdialog and has some focusables inside it already?
  49. http://heydonworks.com/practical_aria_examples/#warning-dialog
  50. @backwardok I tend not to use alerts but describedbys, but that does beg the question, if the user has left focus for a new input, they wouldn't get that new describedby anyway. Still, I'd probably do polite, since otherwise a user could miss hearing where they are now (say, new input) and I'd think I'd want to know that before dealing with some error somewhere.
  51. Wonder if anyone does it in combination with a live region that's elsewhere on the page that gets triggered if an error message is generated and all that live region says is "there was an error"
  52. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Oct 10 19:48
    If they go back and the error is describedby, they'll hear the error text then.
  53. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 19:48
    [saltnburnem] I have replaced “guys” “girls” with yall
  54. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Oct 10 19:49
    I say guys. It's always meant non-southern-murican yall for me since forever
  55. If I want to say "hey all you with dicks" I would say "hey dudes"
  56. plus girls is... for children
  57. and old ladies who go out to drink :P
  58. but, if generally everyone in the room would rather not have guys to mean all-ye-people, a bot would prolly be the easiest way to set that.
  59. or... "slackers"!
  60. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 19:59
    [alice] http://www.vox.com/2015/6/11/8761227/you-guys-sexism-language more or less summarises my feelings on "guys". It honestly not a big deal and I say it sometimes too, but I'd kinda rather avoid the "male default" where I can. Perhaps the bot could link to that article (or one people prefer?)
  61. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 20:39
    [marcysutton] It is super subjective too...I still use "dude" because I'm West Coast US born and raised, but "guys" for some reason sticks out to me as not being inclusive
  62. [marcysutton] Also is anyone else finding Slack uses 95-100% of their CPU? My fan is going nonstop when I have the desktop app open
  63. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Oct 10 21:10
    Someone posted an image of a table showing Slack using more than their kernel
  64. https://twitter.com/dperny/status/778303399989121024
  65. alt=table with 2 rows: Process Name: Slack. Memory: 1.94 GB; Process Name: kernel_task. Memory: 1.36 GB
  66. another term that bothers me horribly is "spokesperson"
  67. mostly because nobody came up with a better term that actually rolls. Firefighter works fine. chairwoman is weird but doable. spokesperson had better be a person from Spokane.
  68. "...argues it's especially troubling when women refer to themselves as "guys," because it represents a "fear of being feminine."" <-- wat?
  69. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Oct 10 21:15
    this is a good article tho
  70. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 21:33
    [car] Good article - makes you think - but I did have the same reaction to the "fear of being feminine" line... <-- wat? :)
    When I am at work, I prefer to be "just one of the guys", and what I mean when I say that is, "No special treatment please. No need to say, 'Oops, sorry Car', if there's cussin' or whatever." ;)
  71. [car] Pasted image at 2016-10-10, 5:37 PM
  72. [marcysutton] I assumed it was Chrome but it was Slack!
  73. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 21:38
    [car] Did you get it to stop spinning?
  74. [marcysutton] I quit the application and left it off for a while.
  75. [car] If it happens again, reboot to free up all possible memory?
  76. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Oct 10 21:57
    When I was taking electronics classes in school, there was one other girl (and we were girls then) in the class. One teacher was very worried and whenever he said "you guys" he'd then remember us and say "and ladies" which made me cringe so bad and shrink down deeply into my chair. I never said anything to him because he obviously meant well.
  77. rebooting to make an application stop being evil just sounds... sad.
  78. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 21:58
    [car] Yep. Some apps are just leaky, and they need to be coddled. ;)
  79. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Oct 10 21:59
    Yeah but it's like a CAPTCHA: it's not great that the user is expected to massage the thing
  80. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 21:59
    [car] Good point. <chuckle>
  81. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Oct 10 22:00
    "Here's this great app. Try it! But don't feed it after midnight."
  82. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 22:01
    [car] Put it to bed after midnight. :)
  83. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Oct 10 22:03
    No direct sunlight, no water, and no food after midnight.
  84. Follow these simple rules and your app will be a great pet.
  85. otherwise...
  86. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 22:06
    [car] https://web-a11y.slack.com/archives/general/p1476114277003014
    @beth Not quite what you asked for, but IBM has a brand-new Mobile Accessibility Checker that might be useful to you:
    https://www.ibm.com/marketplace/next/7181/us/en-us
    I can't tell what it costs - seems to be free at the moment, if you want to try it out. I think you need to "register" first (i.e. "create an IBM ID") in order to download. The overview and demo look good, but I haven't tried it myself because I'm not currently doing any mobile work. If you do give it a try, please let us know how it goes!
  87. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Oct 10 22:07
    Heydon Pickering's next books: Feeding and Caring For Your App and I'm Okay, My App's Okay
  88. is there a non-slack URL to that IBM thing? I think @jkva would be interested in that
  89. or are those the same thing, those two links?
  90. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 22:08
    [caesar] https://www.ibm.com/marketplace/next/7181/us/en-us
  91. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Oct 10 22:08
    ah I had clicked on the first one
  92. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 22:08
    [caesar] I tried reposting the IBM link, but Slack told me off
  93. [caesar] slackbot BOT [9:08 AM] Only visible to you
    Pssst! I didn’t unfurl https://www.ibm.com/marketplace/next/7181/us/en-us because it was already shared in this channel quite recently (within the last hour) and I didn’t want to clutter things up.
  94. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Oct 10 22:08
    bad slack, bad. pinches ear
  95. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 22:09
    [caesar] Such a considerate soul, that SlackBot
  96. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Oct 10 22:09
    looking out for our needs
  97. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 22:09
    [caesar] @beth what kind of screen reader emulation do you need? XCode has the iOS device emulators built in, and I'm pretty sure Android has something similar
  98. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 22:14
    [car] @caesar @StommePoes thanks for the chuckle.
  99. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 23:07
    [jiatyan] Re: landmarks and regions again. I'm looking at page with 3 landmarks: search, navigation and contentinfo. Sounds normal. :) except that the contentinfo contains exactly 2 hidden links "skip to content" and "skip to navigation". The rest of the page has a lot of content in their own <div class="content">. Is this the 'proper' way to use role=contentinfo?
  100. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 23:14
    [lowellreade] on the guys vs girls vs \___ topic, I tend to use “folks"
  101. [caesar] I just say "bitches" because if you're gonna offend you might as well do it comprehensively (OK, not really).
  102. [alice] I don't think ironic offensiveness is any less offensive. That's not an appropriate joke.
  103. [caesar] Apologies
  104. [alice] Could you delete it please?
  105. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 23:19
    [alice] Cheers :(
  106. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    Oct 10 23:21
    /me waves at lowellreade
  107. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 23:22
    [caesar] I've deleted it out of respect, but for the record I tend towards the Salman Rushdie view that "nobody has the right to not be offended."
  108. [caesar] I won't go into my theories of humour and linguistics in defense of that, but suffice to say I don't say or write things flippantly.
  109. [cordelia] @lowellreade, I also use “folks."
  110. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 23:32
    [alice] @caesar I think that in this space it's not unreasonable to set an expectation that people won't need to deal with language which others them. It has nothing to do with "being offended".
  111. [alice] And for the record I fucking hate talking about this :)
  112. [caesar] LOL
  113. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 23:42
    [jiatyan] @caesar, it's all about the intention. "guys" in a general sense is not offensive, "grabbing p*ssy" is offensive when looked through the misogynistic lens of the speaker. :)
  114. [caesar] Well, I had intended to make a joke, but it wasn't funny to some people, which is fair enough.
  115. [caesar] Especially in a publicly shared, searchable, persistent medium.
  116. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Oct 10 23:45
    @caesar Be aware that while you have deleted it from slack it is still visible in gitter (and the gitter archives)
  117. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 23:46
    [alice] yeah, nothing we can do about that unfortunately.
  118. [caesar] Good to know. But I can live with that, and hope that for those taking offense that my apology will suffice.
  119. [cordelia] Are edits captured at all in Gitter or no?
  120. [alice] I think it sends the message twice? Anyone on gitter care to verify?
  121. [alice] @jnurthen
  122. [cordelia] I will experiment with this post and find out.
  123. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 10 23:53
    [cordelia] Hm, so far I am seeing just one message (my message before it was edited).
  124. [cordelia] Yeah, looks like it only sends the first one, not the edited one, which is also important info to know!