Archive index

A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 27th of October 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 27 12:46
    [johnkmcnabb] What do people think about promoting NVDA for testing within a large IT department, and not doing any JAWS testing at all? I know JAWS has more users, but NVDA is free and easier for occasional (sighted) people to manage. #NVDAonly
  2. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 27 12:58
    [beth] @caesar I remediated the breadcrumbs on this page... https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/travel/baggage/default.aspx they work with a screen reader and keyboard.
  3. Jeremy Foster
    @shutterfocus_twitter
    Oct 27 13:12
    Does anyone have an accessible web-font suggestion? The more I look into accessibility and fonts, the more times I see the default recommendation of Arial, Helvetica, Verdana, etc... But upon actually looking at the styles of these fonts they all have issues when it comes to their design. There is no difference in characters such as "Ill" or "db", "qp", etc... So I'm looking for other suggestions?
  4. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 27 14:14
    [beth] @emplums I’d love to see your poster!
  5. [beth] @johnkmcnabb I would recommend getting a Mac and also testing with VoiceOver (it’s built in) and Safari. VO is more strict than JAWS and NVDA, so it catches some things that you wouldn’t catch if only testing on a PC.
  6. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Oct 27 14:21

    VO is more strict than JAWS and NVDA

    supports less stuff HTML/ARIA that is

  7. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 27 14:25
    [jv] @alice I also agree https://twitter.com/xtianmiller/status/791640768574263300
  8. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 27 14:57
    [johnkmcnabb] Thanks @beth @stevef I will definitely remember to include VoiceOver testing. I used to do a lot of testing with JAWS, but I find a lot of people are now using NVDA instead.
  9. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 27 15:07
    [marcysutton] I used NVDA for a video demo the other day because it's hard to recommend JAWS to developers new to accessibility with the high price tag and strict terms of use for the demo version
  10. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Oct 27 15:07
    What slack and gitter can do for font size is stop setting it to 16px on the html/body elements. Setting my browser or OS to have a proper, actually-readable font size will enlarge the menu text on the left. But the chatting area remains tiny, because no relative font sizes (and the next time someone says "but pixels are technically a relative font size" I'm probably going to go full-on violence on them, because what does that matter if in REAL LIFE sh*t don't grow/shrink as I need????? )
  11. @karlgroves "After doing some research, none of the major players in that space offer accessible platforms and I know of one company starting significant efforts to make their Data Vis product accessible which has garnered a massive amount of interest from the Federal Government space" That would be because vision-based charts, graphics, and interactive graphics and maths aren't a solved problem. if it was, someone somewhere would have just implemented it.
  12. Unless you only and solely mean the platform itself (controls and the such). Accessible data viz however is still largley unsolved. It's hitting my employer pretty hard but none of the competition have any solutions either.
  13. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 27 15:10
    [karlgroves] I mean all of the above, really. PWDs need to be both creators and consumers of content. It is def. a hard problem to solve. :(
  14. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Oct 27 15:10
    @shutterfocus_twitter as far as system fonts, likely the best you'll get is verdana and georgia. Verdana's pretty good with the letters (and it's why I love it) but it does still fail with some numbers and other mathy symbols
  15. But (unfortunately) at work we're switching over to a webfont (unfortunately because it's a load problem and competes with users' own local fonts) Open Sans and when I looked at it, it was a pretty nice font as far as differentation is concerned, also better than verdana for mathy symbols.
  16. @karlgroves we're unfortunately getting more adn more mathy/stem vendors like GeoGebra, Wolfram and while their platforms can be improved (as in, the problems are known and the solutions to those problems are known), the actual content? We're kinda screwed, at least for the totally-blind and low-vision people. Speech rec is also pretty bad, for interactives.
  17. Wolfram needs to have someone make their software talk to the a11y APIs on the OSes. But that's their job, not ours.
  18. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 27 15:23
    [beth] @StommePoes @karlgroves Doug Schepers spoke about Accessible Data Visualization at the A11y Summit 2016. He shared a link to an experimental screen reader that uses sonification to audibly relate chart trends to non-sighted users. It made a sound that went down and up almost like a cartoon character falling. It was very interesting.

  19. [karlgroves] There’s a lot that can be done to make the content itself more accessible. Sonification is one. Tactile output with 3d rendering, etc.

    Ultimately it will be AI that gets us across the finish line. One of the things that no current mechanism can do is allow the user to glean inferences from the data immediately. At the moment, all we can do is provide some serialized version of the information while a non-disabled person has a nearly instantaneous mental model of the information.

  20. Jeremy Foster
    @shutterfocus_twitter
    Oct 27 16:14
    @StommePoes Thanks for the suggestion, I thought about Verdana as well, but again the "bdq" characters are basically just mirrors of each other. "PT Sans" at Google Fonts looks like an option, but the uppercase "Q" is an issue. "Source Sans Pro" is another possibility. And there is FS Me , developed to be accessible - but not opensource/free.
  21. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 27 16:24
    [jeremy] It looks like no matter what font is used there are compromises to be made.
  22. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 27 16:42
    [garcialo] @emplums @jnurthen Shift+F10 to bring up the context menu is also a handy little trick when you’re checking for visible focus and you don’t have a decent keyboard
  23. [garcialo] @johnkmcnabb Definitely good to promote NVDA for testing. For basic commands, using NVDA is not much different than using JAWS.
  24. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Oct 27 16:49
    Check out the focus highlight addon for NVDA. IMO it makes NVDA much better for demos to sighted users (and easier to use for sighted testers)
  25. http://addons.nvda-project.org/addons/focusHighlight.en.html
  26. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 27 17:59
    [johnkmcnabb] @jamesn When I try that NVDA add-on, I can no longer test for a visual focus indicator around links and form controls, because now everything gets highlighted.
    For example:
    Here is a <a href="http://google.ca" style="outline:0">link with no focus indicator</a>
    The above link has no dotted line when you tab to it.
  27. [garcialo] Also, speech viewing in NVDA is much easier than in JAWS. Also very useful for sighted testers…in open office environments…especially if they don’t have headphones.
  28. [garcialo] @johnkmcnabb You shouldn’t be using NVDA when testing for visual keyboard focus.
  29. [garcialo] correction; shouldn’t be using NVDA or any other screen reader
  30. [johnkmcnabb] @garcialo Why not? JAWS didn't change the look of focus indicators, if I remember correctly.
  31. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 27 18:04
    [johnkmcnabb] @garcialo JAWS has a Braille Viewer feature that displays what is being read -- although it's a narrow window at the top of the screen, and not as convenient as NVDA's Speech Viewer.
  32. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Oct 27 18:06
    The Braille viewer does not display the same as what is being read. The Braille output and speech output are not the same.
  33. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 27 18:06
    [garcialo] @johnkmcnabb There is no need to have any screen reader running for that. In some cases NVDA+FocusHighlight and VoiceOver, it interferes with your ability to actually test it.
  34. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Oct 27 18:07
    Totally agree - should never do "standard" keyboard testing with a screen reader running. Screen readers "cheat"
  35. for instance if i have a <div role=button onclick=...> but with no keyboard handler JAWS will still be able to press it as it will fire a click event on the button for the user
  36. but a keyboard user with no screen reader will have no way to press it.
  37. Keyboard-only testing with a screen reader running is totally invalid
  38. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 27 18:12
    [johnkmcnabb] Good points, thanks!
  39. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 27 18:23
    [michiel] wonders if the Touch Bar will work with VoiceOver.
  40. jnurthen @jnurthen I was all ready to buy one until those prices
  41. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 27 18:24
    [michiel] What did you expect?
  42. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Oct 27 18:25
    for those prices at least a 512GB SSD
  43. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 27 18:25
    [michiel] only $200 more than the current models :see_no_evil:
  44. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Oct 27 18:26
    i need to replace my macbook pro but at those prices i might go windows
  45. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 27 18:27
    [karlgroves] Been thinking about going with a lenovo or something with incredible battery life and just running Linux
  46. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Oct 27 18:27
    asus zenbooks look nice to me
  47. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 27 18:27
    [michiel] Does anyone know how to setup a shortcut to TalkBack on Android?
  48. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Oct 27 18:27
    can you install linux on a zenbook?
  49. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 27 18:27
    [michiel] Just go ThinkPad ;)
  50. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Oct 27 18:28
    There are a bunch of asus and some other machines where it's not possible
  51. no
  52. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Oct 27 18:28
    who needs linux now bash runs on windows?
  53. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Oct 27 18:28
    Stay away from Lenovo
  54. they are riding on their good name and adding chinese spyware
  55. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 27 18:28
    [karlgroves] True
  56. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Oct 27 18:28
    @jnurthen I don't know, actually, I've been thinking of getting a surface and testing out what I miss
  57. So if someone wants a thinkpad, get something old
  58. Back when they had the awesome keyboard and were built to withstand gorillas
  59. I had a z60 at work but it couldn't run our software, too slow :(
  60. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 27 18:29
    [karlgroves] The lack of a touch screen is super silly. Windows based machines have had this for many years now
  61. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Oct 27 18:29
    great keyboard tho
  62. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Oct 27 18:29
    i really like my work toshiba z30
  63. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Oct 27 18:30
    Karl maybe there's a connection between no touchscreen and not wanting to support pointer events? :P
  64. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 27 18:31
    [karlgroves] ugh
  65. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Oct 27 18:32
    So someone at MS sent me the dial page, I wondered which events it would make but apparently it's not something to use with a browser yet. However, I don't see why they wouldn't add at least Edge integration if the thing turns out to be popular.
  66. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 27 18:32
    [michiel] Does anyone know how to setup a shortcut to TalkBack on Android?
  67. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Oct 27 18:33
    Oh hey michiel, question: you were running a Win VM on a mac? What were the keyboard issues you had again and how did you fix? A colleague is trying exactly this, tomorrow.
  68. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 27 18:34
    [michiel] Uhm, I don’t have issues?
  69. [michiel] Well, not Win VM issues…
  70. [michiel] What is their problem?
  71. [johnkmcnabb] @michiel There is one, but it wasn't reliable when I tried it - see "Accessibility shortcut" - https://support.google.com/accessibility/android/answer/6007100?hl=en
  72. [michiel] johnkmcnabb:
  73. [michiel] -.-
  74. [michiel] johnkmcnabb: that doesn’t work for me :(
  75. [michiel] It worked!
  76. [michiel] You have to separate your fingers a bit more.
  77. [johnkmcnabb] I guess you need to massage it just the right way.
  78. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 27 18:40
    [michiel] It is definitely unreliable…
  79. [michiel] Now I can’t get it turned off the same way.
  80. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 27 18:52
    [johnkmcnabb] What I've been doing is - just turn TalkBack on, and when you're done testing, disable it.
    To temporarily suspend TalkBack:
    1. Swipe down and then right (an ‘L’ shaped gesture). You will see a “Global Context Menu”.
    2. Tap the “Pause feedback” button (in the top left corner of the screen).
    3. You will see the “Suspend TalkBack” screen. You might want to UN-check “Always show this warning”. Then tap “OK”.
  81. [johnkmcnabb] Then it will stay quiet while you go turn it off for good.
  82. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 27 19:55
    [michiel] That’s a good one, thanks johnkmcnabb!
  83. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 27 20:41
    [ccwilcox] Thinking about the new MacBook Pro's Touch Bar, how do you turn on VoiceOver out of the box without a Command+F5 you can find by feel? Is there an alternate keyboard sequence using the remaining physical keys?
  84. [ccwilcox] Can you press 'fn' twice and tell Siri to turn it on, out of the box?
  85. [garcialo] maybe you just hold any key down and it will turn on…I’m sure this is something they’re going to be addressing
  86. [garcialo] “key"
  87. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 27 20:51
    [ccwilcox] one would think, especially when they started their event today with a nice advertisement about their products as enabling technologies and touting an update to the Accessibility section of the Apple site.
  88. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 27 21:49
    [caesar] @michiel re: shortcut on Android, once you turn it on there should be an icon in the notification shade whenever it's "off" and you use it to turn it on. I'm not aware of any way to associate it to a button, given Android as a platform doesn't have any standard hardware buttons per se.
  89. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 27 22:04
    [michiel] ccwilcox: you can indeed turn on voiceover via Siri thumbsup emoji:skin-tone-3:
  90. [michiel] I’m just really interested whether the touch bar itself works with VoiceOVer.
  91. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Oct 27 23:01
    Apparently it does. https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/Interaction.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/20000957-CH105-SW1
  92. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Oct 27 23:37
    the question is - do i spend > $2000 on a 13 inch MBP with 512 GB SSD.... that is a lot of cash
  93. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Oct 27 23:44
    [michiel] If you do; you can test the Touch Bar with VoiceOver for us ;)