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A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 23rd of November 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 00:00
    [michiel] Although, you would have to open/expand the element first of course.
  2. [michiel] So, according to the APG, it should be buttons inside headings.
  3. [michiel] Whether that is <div role="heading" aria-level="2"><a role="button"> or <h2><button> is up to you.
  4. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 00:07
    [quidkid] lol i changed it back to button. i had messed up something else earlier and wrongly attributed to making it a button instead of a div but it was a relatively painless switch back to button. i have the aria-expanded thing going. so now i’m going to through each of the questions with button and labeling it with aria controls. but does it matter that the <h2> is before or after the button tag?
  5. [michiel] The button element should be inside the h2 (or h3, h4, h5, h6 depending on your document outline) element.
  6. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 00:12
    [quidkid] okeydokey i’ll change it but any particular reason?
  7. [michiel] Because it’s the heading for the accordion panel :)
  8. [michiel] If you take away the accordion functionality it’s just a bunch of text neatly organised by headings.
  9. [quidkid] lol i broke everything.. knew this was gunna happen but ah well.. for a worthy cause
  10. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 00:19
    [michiel] Do you have your code on JSBin, CodePen, or GitHub?
  11. [quidkid] no unfortunately, i’m not allowed to. -__-"
  12. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 00:24
    [quidkid] wow literally putting the h3 tag outside of the button tag broke everything haha
  13. [quidkid] is it really that necessary?
  14. [quidkid] i should also mention i didn’t code this site myself, but did edit it and now remediating it for accessibility
  15. [quidkid] OH SNAP. i think i got it!!
  16. [quidkid] so i dug around in the javascript and saw all this $(this).parent() stuff so i had a hunch and added another .parent() (because of the h3) and it WORKS
  17. [quidkid] now i gotta label the buttons and the answer panels with IDs.. thank you so much @michiel and everyone else who helped me! gosh I don’t know what i would do without this slack group.
  18. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 00:29
    [michiel] No problem at all!
  19. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 02:24
    [quidkid] crap @michiel i had other issues that arose. does it really matter for accessibility whether the button is within the h tag or outside of the h tag
  20. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 02:29
    [michiel] Yes.
  21. [michiel] If it’s not inside the heading then the heading has no label text; it wouldn’t have an accessible name.
  22. [michiel] From the button, $(this).parent() would select the heading, $(this).parent().parent() would select whatever element is outside of that.
  23. [michiel] From what I remember from jQuery you can also do $(this).parents("some css selector").
  24. [quidkid] @michiel i’m working through it lol i deleted it because i fixed that issue.. well.. im still stuck. so in order to make things work again, i put the class that was on the div/button on the h3 to get the styles sorta right. it’s still pretty buggy
  25. [quidkid] it works properly on click again now but not on tab
  26. [michiel] It’s kinda hard to give any guidance when I can’t see the code, but I understand you’re not allowed to show that :)
  27. [quidkid] wait never mind it works! XD
  28. [quidkid] i dunno
  29. [quidkid] at this point i keep rearranging things on hunches
  30. [quidkid] haha i think its working again now!
  31. [quidkid] i had to go back through all the css and anywhere i had h3.class I changed to h3.class button
  32. [michiel] Nice goin’
  33. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 02:35
    [quidkid] whew thank you!! hopefully i don’t find another bug there but dang really goes to show i just need to keep pulling through and fight the little voice in my head saying just leave it the way it is haha
  34. [michiel] Always strive for better things!
  35. [quidkid] @michiel sorry but what was the point of adding the aria-controls with the id? like does the id have the be the same as the aria-controls attribute
  36. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 02:41
    [michiel] https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#aria-controls ;)
  37. [michiel] Value:ID reference list
  38. [michiel] So, yes, the value of aria-controls should be the same as the value of id on the panel.
  39. [quidkid] so yes?
  40. [michiel] :ok_hand::skin-tone-5:
  41. [quidkid] thank you so much! and sorry for the dumb questions haha
  42. [michiel] No worries, stay curious :)
  43. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 02:49
    [quidkid] oh crap another question.. so where should the aria-expanded be? currently its on the h3 because it was tied to whatever element had the .ques class. should it be on the button as well?
  44. [michiel] Yes, that should be on the button.
  45. [quidkid] cool thank you!
  46. [michiel] From the APG: http://w3c.github.io/aria-practices/#accordion
  47. [michiel] If the accordion panel associated with an accordion header is visible, the header button element has aria-expanded set to true. If the panel is not visible, aria-expanded is set to false.
  48. [michiel] Where the header button element is the Accordion Header:
  49. [michiel] Accordion Header:
  50. [michiel] Label for or thumbnail representing a section of content that also serves as a control for showing, and in some implementations, hiding the section of content.
  51. [quidkid] lol kinda confusing.. could be taken either the header or the button element but whatever haha
  52. [michiel] Which part?
  53. [quidkid] wait so it should be on the header?
  54. [michiel] “the header button element has aria-expanded”
  55. [michiel] So, the button.
  56. [michiel] My earlier example: <h2><button aria-controls="panel-1" aria-expanded="false">Item 1</button></h2><div id="panel-1" hidden><p>Some content</p></div>
  57. [quidkid] ah okeydokey i see
  58. [michiel] thumbsup emoji:skin-tone-3:
  59. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 02:54
    [caesar] I've always wondered why the expanded state is contained in the element that controls the thing to be expanded
  60. [caesar] It kinda makes sense, but it also kinda doesn't
  61. [michiel] It has to do with computation cost I believe.
  62. [michiel] Would be more costly to first get the controlled element and then return the expanded state.
  63. [caesar] ic
  64. [michiel] But don’t quote me on that, that’s a vague memory from an ARIA call.
  65. [caesar] It sounds plausible, at least
  66. [quidkid] @michiel if i have a hamburger menu that slides from the right, do I need ARIA tags on that? i’ve always heard the first rule of ARIA was to avoid using ARIA haha
  67. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 02:59
    [michiel] True
  68. [michiel] Uhm, not necessarily ARIA.
  69. [quidkid] i got focus management on that i think pretty down pat. focus is trapped within when opened and returned to menu button.
  70. [caesar] Slide-out menus could be considered a type of modal dialog, in my opinion.
  71. [quidkid] the last pain i have to deal with is mobile :’( since this site has a few sections that are hidden and revealed for mobile view only.
  72. [michiel] Focus should indeed be trapped.
  73. [michiel] Also, focusable elements within the menu shouldn’t be focusable when the menu is closed.
  74. [michiel] Which is why https://github.com/wicg/inert is so cool :)
  75. [quidkid] ^check and check.. lol marcy talked about inert and i couldn’t figure out how to use it so my workaround was change all the other tabindices to -1 XD XD
  76. [michiel] That works, just a bit expensive :)
  77. [quidkid] it’s a small one page site anyways but inert is supposed to go on the background right? i wasn’t clear on how to use inert without including my menu in the dom
  78. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 03:05
    [michiel] How is your menu not in the DOM?
  79. [quidkid] it is
  80. [quidkid] i mean i just couldn’t see how inert wouldn’t apply to itself
  81. [quidkid] and only on everything else
  82. [quidkid] if my menu is in top middle of some code
  83. [michiel] “The inert attribute would allow web authors to mark parts of the DOM tree as inert:”
  84. [michiel] So you apply it to the part of the page you don’t want to be included in the tab order.
  85. [michiel] <div id="menu" inert> for example
  86. [michiel] Where id="menu" is the parent of all your menu stuff.
  87. [quidkid] ok but how would you do the inverse of that
  88. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 03:10
    [quidkid] the only i could think of was apply to inert to every container element outside of the menu but then the container also contained my menu. awk
  89. [michiel] “The spec does not make explicit that there is no way to "un-inert" a subtree of an inert subtree.”
  90. [michiel] The inverse would be a focus trap.
  91. [michiel] Which is not something inert does/offers as far as I know.
  92. [quidkid] yeah so i guess i would’ve needed to do the tabindex -1 on everything else anyways
  93. [michiel] Nah, if you know the first/last focusable in your menu/drawer thingy and detect when tab or shift+tab is pressed you can build a focus trap.
  94. [michiel] In any case, I’m going to hit the hay, it’s π over here.
  95. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 03:17
    [quidkid] @michiel dang and i thought i was crazy staying late at work (it’s 10:17pm here). Good night and thank you so much for your help!
  96. [michiel] No problem, good luck :ok_hand::skin-tone-3:
  97. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 04:44
    [marcysutton] A tip about inert: it has to be applied to siblings of a menu, and not the parent. That would make the menu itself inert too. For dialogs, we recommend inserting them as a direct child of the body so it's easier to make siblings inert in the DOM. Menus are probably a bit more tricky, though, because their contents are often buried deeper in the DOM as part of a backwards-compatible unordered list with ARIA bolted on. Therefore they may require DOM walking to set siblings as inert while keeping an unobstructed path all the way to the <body>. Maybe a good case for an override of some kind? I know that isn't possible with aria-hidden="true" but maybe we could push for something with inert?
  98. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 07:11
    [marcysutton] Still thinking about menus =D They might be a better case for a keyboard trap, so a keyboard user can't get stuck behind the menu but the rest of the content would still be part of the accessibility tree....I'm a bit torn. Will have to play with the concept more.
  99. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Nov 23 07:14
    Do the inert polyfills remove stuff from the a11y tree? I was playing with one of them the other day and it didn't seem to remove from VO. The spec hasn't really defined what inert should do wrt AT so I want sure if this was intended or not.
  100. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 07:17
    [caesar] Question about radio groups for anyone online: in screen readers, once you select a radio button from a group, and then exit forms mode, what should "arrow down" do?
  101. [caesar] Should it read past the radio group, or is "tab" the only way "out" of the radio group without changing the selection?
  102. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Nov 23 07:23
    If you are not in forms mode then arrow will just read through the buffer from the button you were on. But it will not activate a different button unless you press space/enter on it.
  103. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 07:23
    [caesar] OK, so it will read any remaining radio labels, but NOT select it right?
  104. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Nov 23 07:25
    Yes. If you read using arrows I believe. I recommend testing if it is really important to know.
  105. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 07:26
    [caesar] Yes, I will have to confirm native HTML behaviour. Client has designed a custom radio set where arrow will select the radio even when not in forms mode
  106. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Nov 23 07:27
    With a screen reader? How? They wouldn't even get an event to respond to.
  107. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 07:28
    [caesar] Yeah, I don't know, but that's how it is!
  108. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Nov 23 07:29
    Have you used it yourself or are you relying on reported info. If reported info I would be questioning it.
  109. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 07:29
    [caesar] I have actually done it myself
  110. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Nov 23 07:30
    What screen reader and browser?
  111. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 07:30
    [caesar] NVDA and Firefox
  112. [caesar] It is a flight booking table - a terribly complex thing
  113. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Nov 23 07:31
    Hmm. I will have to look at some radio button example tomorrow. There is an apg radio button. See if that does the same thing.
  114. Heh. Nothing is as complex as our apps :(
  115. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 07:32
    [caesar] I'd beg to differ but I have no idea what you're working on, LOL
  116. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Nov 23 07:32
    .... oracle.
  117. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 07:32
    [caesar] Although I meant complexity in terms of the information they are trying to convey...
  118. [caesar] Not technical complexity
  119. [caesar] Ouch, oracle :)
  120. [caesar] I did a job with Seibel once. Never again.
  121. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Nov 23 07:33
    Heh. Siebel is not my favorite of our products.
  122. Although the new Ui stack is at least standards based. It is still hellishly complex though. As soon as a product has 3 levels of tabs you are in for some fun.
  123. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 07:36
    [caesar] Haha... alright, I'm clocking off. Have a good day ahead, or night, wherever you may be.
  124. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Nov 23 07:36
    Yeah. Time for bed for me too.
  125. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 08:38
    [oliviernourry] Hi all, I'm a working on the translation of a French document into English. How would you call the person in charge of a11y in an institution? We call them "Référent accessibilité". I'm looking for a suitable equivalent in English. Thanks!
  126. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 11:08
    [caesar] Accessibility Lead or Head of Accessibility probably
  127. [marcozehe] https://www.marcozehe.de/2016/11/23/javascript-not-enemy-accessibility/
  128. [marcozehe] I blogged a response to Jeffrey Zeldman's Blue Beany Day Call To Action post.
  129. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 11:15
    [oliviernourry] @caesar thanks, I was thinking of "accessibility lead", actually, as it refers to a description of a mission rather than to a job title, in the original doucment. Thanks!
  130. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 15:02
    [karlgroves] That Marco Zehe is one smart guy.
  131. [marcozehe] Is he? Dunno... :-D
  132. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 15:08
    [karlgroves] Even if you didn’t come see me when I was in Germany
  133. [marcozehe] I'm so sorry I couldn't! I got sick the weekend before, and just now fully recovered. I would have come to Berlin otherwise!
  134. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Nov 23 15:41
    :D you also missed @jkva too
  135. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 16:07
    [tommyfeldt] Hi! I’m struggling a bit with accessible modals for VoiceOver on iPhone and was wondering if you could help me. I’m looking at the example modal at HeydonWorks (http://heydonworks.com/practical_aria_examples/#warning-dialog) which seems to work great when I search the screen with my finger. But when I’m stepping through the elements by flicking left and right, I still manage to find links and elements that are behind the modal. Is there a simple way to stop this from happening?
  136. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 16:13
    [tommyfeldt] Can I, for instance, apply aria-hidden to everything else on the page, so that VoiceOver only sees the modal?
  137. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 16:21
    [karlgroves] Yes
  138. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 16:58
    [marcysutton] @jamesnurthen yes it does, but not in the Google polyfill–see the WICG inert thread: https://discourse.wicg.io/t/inert-attribute/1838
  139. [marcysutton] @tommyfeldt I talked about that exact thing in a talk last year https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jp6-9X-ZClk
  140. [marcysutton] It is also related to the inert/dialog stuff above
  141. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Nov 23 19:12
    I see. I was looking at the google polyfill so that explains it. They should probably do that in the limitations or someone (maybe even me) should log an issue.
  142. s/do/doc/
  143. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 19:14
    [marcysutton] Totally, I ran into that as well myself.
  144. [marcysutton] Although it does raise a point about menus–should any part of the DOM be made inert (and thus pulled out of the accessibility tree) when a menu is opened, or should they implement a focus trap only?
  145. [marcysutton] I'm definitely leaning towards the latter but that was one of the use cases cited https://github.com/WICG/inert?files=1#the-case-for-inert-as-a-primitive
  146. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Nov 23 19:17
    it is a good question. How do you close a menu on iOS w/ VO without selecting anything?
  147. native is easy - but web we don't have scrub
  148. we are hitting this with all of our popups in hybrid apps.
  149. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 19:17
    [marcysutton] Ah, an even better question. That does provide a good use case for aria-hidden on anything other than the menu.
  150. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Nov 23 19:18
    it still doesn't answer how to close them without selecting anything
  151. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 19:18
    [marcysutton] but depending on where it is in the DOM you'd have to do some walking to set it only on siblings.
  152. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Nov 23 19:19
    all our popups are rooted to the document i think. There were some weird zorder bugs coming up when they were rooted anywhere else, which actually makes inert really easy to do
  153. but adds a ton of complications in other areas
  154. but I still don't have a good answer for how to close a menu on mobile with VO
  155. i think we are going to end up adding hidden close links at the end of the menu and then trap focus within them
  156. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 19:21
    [marcysutton] that assumes menu content is an early descendant of the body and focus management is used to shuttle users back and forth from the triggering element, if it is located elsewhere.
  157. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Nov 23 19:21
    action sheets and dialogs are no problem as they always have close/cancel buttons to dismiss - but menus, including button menus are a real problem
  158. yeah... that is what we do (focus management etc.....)
  159. I'd love to find a good non-clunky solution to this.
  160. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 19:23
    [marcysutton] The Angular Material menu did that, and we handled the focus back and forth. but it felt so wrong to inject menu contents in a random place apart from the other relevant parts of the document (like the triggering element). What about a progressively-enhanced page source? I wonder if moving menu content to the root from its original place in the DOM when JS initializes could solve both use cases
  161. [marcysutton] DOM walking is tricky. But at least inert removes the need for handling tabindex AND aria-hidden
  162. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Nov 23 19:24
    JET started having them in the correct place in the DOM but had to move them due to layering issues, I think particularly when there was a menu in a dialog
  163. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 19:25
    [marcysutton] :see_no_evil:
  164. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Nov 23 19:25
    a menu button in a dialog isn't that crazy
  165. i've seen worse
  166. ..... much owrse
  167. worse
  168. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 19:26
    [marcysutton] tabs in a dialog
  169. [marcysutton] WHYYYYYY
  170. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Nov 23 19:27
    windows does that everywhere.... is it that weird?
  171. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 19:27
    [marcysutton] on the web? I think so (personally)
  172. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Nov 23 19:28
    depends what you think of as the web
  173. web sites - sure. Complex web apps - why not?
  174. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 19:30
    [marcysutton] I guess if they're complex, they're complex. I have just noticed a design tendency to "modal dialog all the things" because it's convenient but with very little real world user testing
  175. [marcysutton] But I guess menus and tabs are part of that whole thing. Jamming icon buttons into a menu to "clean things up" actually made it more confusing to users..especially existing users
  176. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Nov 23 19:31
    it is not always optimal - but sometimes every part of an app doesn't have to be optimal.
  177. I'd prefer the most used bits of the UI get the good UI design. Pragmatically we don't have time for everything (settings screens are a good example of this)
  178. UX patterns are vitally important so a dev can get something OK without thinking about it
  179. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Nov 23 20:35
    @alice ping
  180. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 20:45
    [alice] @stevefaulkner hi!
  181. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Nov 23 20:56
    @alice yeah about the placeholder/aria-placeholder name calc w3c/html-aam#69
  182. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 22:53
    [caesar] Can somebody help me with a Dragon question? We had some remote testing done with a person using a mouthstick, and the feedback we received was "For some reason, if you use voice activation to choose a meeting room, it will highlight the option but it does not bring up all of the options in a pop-up of drop downs."
  183. [caesar] Is there any documentation that outlines how Dragon emulates user input for instance?
  184. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Nov 23 22:56
    what kind of control is your choose a meeting room? There is little Dragon documentation out there for things like this
  185. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 22:56
    [caesar] It's a dropdown menu/combobox
  186. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Nov 23 22:57
    so a select element?
  187. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 22:58
    [caesar] Yes
  188. [caesar] https://meetingrooms.qantas.com.au/bookingform
  189. [caesar] Also
    "I noticed that none of the additional equipment boxes are checkable by voice activation. Even if you try tabbing through and asking it to use a spacebar on the checkbox, it will not fill in anything on the additional equipment. Again, no problem with a mouthstick, but a huge problem if you are using voice activation only."
  190. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Nov 23 22:58
    I think you have to say "show choices" to expand the combo - but let me check

  191. yep - Open a list of choices

    "Show Choices"

    Close a list of choices

    "Hide Choices"

  192. see http://www.nuance.com/products/help/dragon/dragon-for-pc/enx/professionalgroup/main/Content/Web/web_basics.htm
  193. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 23:00
    [caesar] Hmm... OK, I would've expected the tester to be experienced enough to know this, but thanks.
  194. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Nov 23 23:01
    space on those checkboxes works from the keybaord.... I think with dragon I just say "click flip charts" for example, or I would if it was labelled correctly (which it isn't)
  195. if not you can just say "click check box" and it will put numbers on all the check boxes and i can then check them by number
  196. its worth picking up a copy of dragon just to have a bit of familiarity with it.
  197. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 23:03
    [caesar] OK I know the problem. Additional option checkboxes aren't labelled correctly
  198. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Nov 23 23:04
    i would still expect someone saying "type space" to select the checkbox if it is focussed though
  199. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 23:07
    [caesar] Yes, I think he did specify that later. The expectation seemed to be naming the checkbox itself
  200. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Nov 23 23:16
    Looking at that page the radio buttons are really really weird
  201. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 23:17
    [caesar] It wouldn't surprise me.
  202. [caesar] It's been a long time since I've seen somebody just use the bloody default radio buttons
  203. [caesar] I don't know why every person in the world seems to think they can do better
  204. [caesar] At least in my neck of the woods
  205. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Nov 23 23:18
    it is as if they didn't like the fact that only the selected item was in the tab order so they hacked it to make all of them in the tab order.
  206. you are going to get some really weird behaviour in a screen reader on that one
  207. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 23:26
    [caesar] Yup. Similar to the issue I was discussing with you last night :) (But not the same one... that other one is way worse)
  208. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Nov 23 23:27
    ahhhh - perhaps that is what is causing the weird screen reader behaviour... its possible the radios are the same widget
  209. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 23:28
    [caesar] Something like that.
  210. [melsumner] radios can be weird when people make them fancy w/o thinking it through
  211. [melsumner] I refer to this document when I get stuck: https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#radiobutton
  212. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Nov 23 23:31
    @melsumner I am glad people find it useful
  213. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 23:32
    [melsumner] between that and https://www.w3.org/TR/aria-in-html/ I keep my sanity ^_^
  214. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Nov 23 23:32
    although I recommend using the 1.1 version - https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices-1.1/ or even better the current editors draft as there have been a LOT of changes
  215. http://w3c.github.io/aria-practices/
  216. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 23:33
    [caesar] a
  217. [melsumner] interesting, thank you!
  218. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Nov 23 23:34
    there will be a new 1.1 working draft published in the next couple of months based on the current editors draft
  219. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 23:34
    [caesar] Agree the ARIA practices page is invaluable, although it has its limitations. E.g. it doesn't mention SR behaviour, so I couldn't use it to determine the answer to my question yesterday, for instance, of what SR should read in Read Mode after exiting forms mode after making a selection. But that's not what it was designed for! :)
  220. [melsumner] I don't think it ever could though
  221. [caesar] Yes, of course
  222. [caesar] Each SR will be different
  223. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Nov 23 23:35
    correct - we cannot dictate screen reader behaviour
  224. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 23:35
    [melsumner] I have a whole psych myself up playlist that I have to listen to before I can use Safari + VO haha
  225. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Nov 23 23:35
    LOL - you should share it
  226. I must admit VO on OSX is still a bit of a mystery to me. I'm fine with iOS as I use that frequently but we don't get a lot of customer demand for Mac desktops
  227. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Nov 23 23:39
    [melsumner] it's understandable, given the variables