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A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 1st of December 2016

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Dec 01 04:11
    [herin] Hello... A general question about the security questions. They are usually edit protected. Has anyone thought about the screen reader issue behind this?
    1) As it's edit protected, the screen reader users only hear ***.
    2) As there is no confirm answer, if they make a mistake there is no way to know what they have typed in
  2. [herin] Has anyone got any articles to share about this?
  3. [herin] That will be of great help.
  4. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Dec 01 04:16
    [caesar] I think a point was made that announcing the letters out loud allows an eavesdropper to "steal" the password.
  5. [caesar] That's my only contribution, LOL
  6. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Dec 01 04:21
    [herin] I agree. But, this is an overlooked looked area I think... We talk about Captcha a lot. This is not helping all... May be we should have an alternative way as well.
  7. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Dec 01 04:26
    [caesar] Not specifically a11y, but on the Usability side of my work I've come across this: http://www.lukew.com/ff/entry.asp?1941
  8. [caesar] LukeW is very knowledgeable on form UX.
  9. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Dec 01 04:34
    [herin] Thanks @caesar for sharing.
  10. [herin] I have given 3 suggestions
    1) Have a flag to reveal/hide the fields
    2) Delayed masking
    3) Have a confirm answer option as well.
    I haven't tried the delayed masking with screen reader/
  11. Ian Devlin
    @iandevlin
    Dec 01 09:02
    Hello good people of the room.
  12. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Dec 01 09:22
    [dean] Jessica Enders (formulate) is also really knowledgable when it comes to form design, I know she has a keen interest in Accessibility too.
  13. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Dec 01 09:37
    [michiel] Morning Ian, Dean, everyone!
  14. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Dec 01 09:55
    [dean] Hello UK, Netherlands receiving you.
  15. Ian Devlin
    @iandevlin
    Dec 01 09:57
    :D
  16. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Dec 01 10:11
    [heydon] My technique (that Cordelia cited) doesn’t require tabindex on the label or any such hack. It’s just CSS enhanced form markup.
    @cordelia I think something like that is being attempted. The concept is just a bit muddled. One should not really be adding tabindex to a label, which seems to be an opinion that Safari choses to enforce.
  17. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Dec 01 12:23
    Maybe Safari thinks "what's the point? You get something like focus on a label when you hit its input"
  18. maybe all the other browsers are all like "¿Por qué no los dos?"
  19. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Dec 01 14:40
    [michiel] Heydon, are you going to CSS Day next year?
  20. [michiel] If so, you might be able to attend the next role=drinks: https://twitter.com/roledrinks/status/804331158247002113
  21. [michiel] I would think 7 months notice should suffice ;)
  22. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Dec 01 14:48
    [dean] I’ll try and make it too @michiel
  23. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Dec 01 15:12
    [michiel] Woohoo!
  24. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Dec 01 15:19
    [heidi] Question... If a PDF doesn't have super great accessibility (tagged but needs work), but HTML alternative exists - all good or both need to be compliant for AA?
  25. [quidkid] hey guys! so I’m trying to come up with an estimate of how long it will take me to program an accessible microsite from scratch, given everything i need. I’m wondering how many times longer does it take to make the site accessible so I could just multiply their current number? XD i have no clue on how to estimate my time
  26. [michiel] > i have no clue on how to estimate my time
  27. [michiel] No-one does.
  28. [quidkid] @michiel so where do these numbers of hours come from? how do people do it?
  29. [heidi] @quidkid Likely depends on if there's a lot of dynamic stuff that will need ARIA support. Custom UI elements and dynamic bits are the most time consuming. Everything else is pretty straight-forward if you already know about accessible dev.
  30. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Dec 01 15:24
    [heidi] Also, your design? If it's someone else's there might be some back and forth there to make sure the visual elements/layout support a11y.
  31. [quidkid] @heidi, I think it’s pretty static.. actually i dunno. the client hasn’t given us content yet but i know there will be a video embedded and there may be some forms. we have an in house designer who is working on the design. she knows to be mindful of colors and contrast
  32. [heidi] So vid might need captioning/audio-description or transcript - factor that cost in as well.
  33. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Dec 01 15:29
    [michiel] +1
  34. [quidkid] I’ll mention captioning for sure thanks @heidi.. they already are going to give us a transcript. i know the designer bought some kind of pdf on accessible design so hopefully that helps her. but regardless, they are asking me to come up with a number and i have no clue what to say. how do you guys come up with number of hours?
  35. [quidkid] even if no one knows how exactly to estimate their time.. what are the steps you guys do take?
  36. [conley] Take the time it would take you to build the site without accounting for a11y and double it
  37. [conley] @quidkid
  38. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Dec 01 15:35
    [conley] As Heidi said, most of it you'll be able to handle through proper HTML, it's the dynamic bits, forms, and complex menus that will be more time consuming
  39. [heidi] Same as any dev project as accessibility is mostly baked in vs. an extra. However, having the skills needed to make an accessible site = added value all round, so you could bump your hourly rate/overall price up to reflect that + add any outsourcing (a11y testing/auditing, captioning, etc.).
  40. [heidi] Definitely if this is your first a11y related gig, factor in the learning curve time.
  41. [quidkid] yeah there might be forms. i dunno what the clients want yet and they want us to come up with an estimate -__-“ and i only have 2 months of experience working professionally now so i don’t have much to go off us. @heidi i worked on website remediation, this will be the first website from scratch completely. They told me not to include learning curve time in the estimate for the client
  42. [quidkid] @conley thank you! i guess that’s the easiest. I’ll tell them to double their current estimate. which i think is 30hrs of programming right now
  43. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Dec 01 15:40
    [heidi] @quidkid If there are PDFs, those will have to be made accessible as well. Another potential outsource cost.
  44. [quidkid] @heidi the client will provide the accessible PDFs thank God haha
  45. [heidi] sweet.
  46. [quidkid] i’ll tell them 60hrs then. i dunno. that’s double the current time
  47. [heidi] Double seems hefty for a microsite.
  48. [heidi] But go with it, see what they say I guess :)
  49. [quidkid] that’s too much.. they charge higher for “accessibility hours"
  50. [quidkid] @heidi what is a good factor for a microsite?
  51. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Dec 01 15:46
    [quidkid] the thing is regardless of the estimate of hours, i’m still going to stay late and do whatever it takes to figure out which, including learning time, is gunna be much longer. but i guess they dont’ want the client to ditch the project either. i dunno……………..
  52. [heidi] Not sure what to tell ya :) Pricing is a fun combination of hourly fees, value added, and gut feelings...
  53. [quidkid] @heidi so how do you do it? how does anyone do it if no on knows how to do it? my gut feeling tells me to ask more experienced people like on this slack channel haha
  54. [quidkid] like what tells you that double seems hefty for a microsite?
  55. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Dec 01 15:52
    [heidi] hehe. For me, I have an hourly fee that makes sense for my skillset, experience, and life. I estimate how long a project will take (add then add more time for inevitabilities), do the math, and then do a gut check on if that properly reflects the value I'm giving and adjust as needed.
  56. [quidkid] and it’s funny to me that double is too much because that says they technically have an idea in mind, but still want me to come up with a number haha. i guess for me, i’m only running on 2 months of experience so literally no data to go off of
  57. [heidi] Well, think about what extra time will be needed to do the forms properly, ensure the video is accessible, and overall align with WCAG, and test for that. It is a number that depends on your experience - how quickly and confidently you'll be able to execute those things. Do you think it will take 30 more hours?
  58. [heidi] Speaking of work... need to get back to it ;) Good luck!
  59. [quidkid] @heidi thank you so much for your time!! i’ll keep that all in mind. i really appreciate it and you too @conley
  60. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Dec 01 16:26
    [heydon] I’m not sure. I’d like to speak there again.
    Heydon, are you going to CSS Day next year?
  61. [conley] @quidkid np!
  62. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Dec 01 17:29
    [michiel] Heydon: So, talk to PPK ;)
  63. [michiel] Regardless, would be nice to have you there :)
  64. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Dec 01 17:51
    " i dunno what the clients want yet and they want us to come up with an estimate" <-- we're not going to tell you anything but we want you to tell us how long it takes... to do... something. Lawlz
  65. After you do get some hours under your belt, done a few projects, and feel you're pretty sure how good/bad your skillset is... you'll be able to demand knowing certain things before giving estimates. Things like # of forms and how-many-fields, whether they're dynamic/static, etc.

  66. of external things like PDFs and videos.

  67. whoa
  68. there's supposed to be a number sign in front of that.
  69. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Dec 01 17:53
    [michiel] Mall, you’re coming to role=drinks too right?
  70. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Dec 01 17:53
    We'll see.
  71. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Dec 01 17:54
    [michiel] That’s no dedication!
  72. Mallory
    @StommePoes
    Dec 01 18:01
    It's like a half year away
  73. I might not even be alive then
  74. sheesh :P
  75. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Dec 01 19:39
    [michiel] :D
  76. stevefaulkner
    @stevefaulkner
    Dec 01 19:40
    Pro tip - listen to the Sleaford Mods https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suK5iqVxmTE&feature=youtu.be&list=RDsuK5iqVxmTE
  77. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Dec 01 19:56
    [dpogue] There was some discussion a few days ago about menus, and coincidentally we just open-sourced a menu button component yesterday: https://ayogohealth.github.io/ay-menu-button/
  78. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Dec 01 20:22
    @dpogue looks pretty good. 1 small issue i saw is that you are not moving focus back to the button when you escape out of the menu
  79. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Dec 01 20:23
    [dpogue] Ah, thanks, I'll make an issue for that :)
  80. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Dec 01 22:48
    [quidkid] so i’m working on making the responsive mobile version’s tab index and the awkward part is that i have it completely working on the desktop version but when you resize the screen to mobile, it’s ok but as soon as you expand the screen back out, it doesn’t work. i’m making separate tab index cases for both mobile and desktop version. any hints or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
  81. [garcialo] @stevefaulkner I don’t believe anyone should moderate Sleaford