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A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 23rd of March 2017

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Mar 23 02:54
    [caesar] A very important question! Do you conform "with" or conform "to" WCAG 2.0? Hahaha
  2. luis garcia
    @garcialo
    Mar 23 03:13
    You conform "to" it.
  3. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Mar 23 03:36
    [seankeegan] @cyns You could try Aegisub (http://www.aegisub.org/). Worked well when I used it, but that was several years ago. Export file as SRT and then could use Handbrake or iSubtitle to combine the file with video.
  4. Alexandre Nicastro
    @AlexxNica
    Mar 23 15:25
    Hey, I'm trying to get in touch with someone on other channels to get some help on HTML standards/best practices but couldn't find anyone to help me
  5. Can someone from here help me with it? It's nothing complicated.. It's related to meta-tags
  6. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Mar 23 15:30
    [cmegown] what's the question?
  7. Alexandre Nicastro
    @AlexxNica
    Mar 23 15:38
    @zakim-robot I've found it in the spec just now, thank you very much though! 🤗
  8. It was about the quotes on syntax.. Whether it was obligatory to use it on values such as '<link rel=icon href="favicon.png" sizes="16x16" type="image/png">'
  9. A guy from IRC got to help me, in case someone is interested, it's not obligatory and the source for more info is here: https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/syntax.html#attributes-2
  10. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Mar 23 15:44
    [sarahebourne] I have been asked if there is "an accessibility certified version of CAPTCHA". :'( :D(ohcrap emoji) It seems like Google's latest may be the closest (thanks to Terrill Thompson and @feather for testing), and I know about the W3C blog page https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Captcha_Alternatives_and_thoughts. I would be interested in your personal or work/implementation experiences with specific solutions.
    The conversation will go, "There are none. You should find another way." "Thank you." And then they will go ahead and implement one anyway, so it would be Good if I could suggest the least egregious.
  11. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Mar 23 15:56
    [karlgroves] @sarahebourne Just give them a waiver: http://www.karlgroves.com/2011/07/28/get-a-free-section-508-waiver-here/
  12. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Mar 23 16:27
    [garcialo] Awww…I wanted to get a 508 Waiver for myself. :(
  13. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Mar 23 16:38
    [sri429] i see lot of people complaining about wells fargos new design. does any here one know what's so drastically wrong.
  14. [sri429] any one here*
  15. [conley] I don't find it to be very performant
  16. [conley] a11y aside
  17. Stephanie Jagl-Posch
    @tiffy23
    Mar 23 16:42
    @sarahebourne a honeypot will not suffice? i have also heard that googles no captcha is the best option so far, but i haven't tested it myself. i always use a honeypot, because i also like the idea that users don't have to fill in an extra field.
  18. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Mar 23 16:43
    [kevmarmo] hi all can anyone recommend a AA compliant datepicker that includes side by side months?
  19. [kevmarmo] thanks
  20. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Mar 23 16:58
    [cyns] thanks @caesar and @seanseansean. I'll try those.
  21. [car] @kevmarmo There have been several accessible date pickers mentioned here before (do a slack search for date picker) but I don't know which ones have the side by side month feature.
  22. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Mar 23 17:20
    [kevmarmo] @car thanks did a search but nothing pulls up what i'm looking for
  23. Jason Day
    @jasonday
    Mar 23 17:55
    We extended jQuery UI to be accessible, but we don't use the side by side feature, but I think it would work.
  24. https://gist.github.com/jasonday/f13845d56098a34f57f08d2c16f3797a
  25. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Mar 23 18:04
    [maya] Did anybody here work on https://material.io/guidelines/usability/accessibility.html or could point me to who did?
  26. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Mar 23 18:10
    [dean] Is that new @maya ? Funnily enough I looked at Material Design today for the first time in an age, and I don’t recall seeing the Usability / Accessibility stuff before
  27. [marcysutton] I worked on Angular Material, the part of the guidelines was by the Google Design team I believe (unless they contracted it out..and then who knows)
  28. [marcysutton] They did have accessibility guidelines originally but I think they have been expanded further, which is awesome.
  29. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Mar 23 18:20
    [maya] Ah thanks for the background @marcysutton, I’m trying to find out what the example images are licensed under to see if we can reuse with attribution for our own guidelines. Sounds like contacting Google Design is a good first step.
  30. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Mar 23 19:04
    [sri429] img.gif
  31. [sri429] Q: have 3 sections, and each section have multiple form controls. keyboard navigation was left right arrow key to move between 1, 2 & 3. Now the problem is when running jaws, arrow keys are not being passed to the browser. what should be the right role to these sections?
  32. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Mar 23 19:24
    [marcysutton] What is in those sections?
  33. [marcysutton] Ah I see, form controls. But arrow keys aren't naturally used to navigate layouts or forms...that is more typical of interactive widgets such as menus.
  34. [marcysutton] A JAWS user could use the passthrough key to make the arrow keys work, but they won't necessarily know to do that without an interactive role...which doesn't really work with broader layouts. Maybe you need skip links instead? or landmarks?
  35. [car] If you give the sections an aria-label, then the screen reader will see them as landmark regions.
  36. [car] That is, if they are section elements.
  37. [car] Which have a default role of region.
  38. [car] But only if they have an aria-label.
  39. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Mar 23 19:52
    [sri429] @marcysutton they are not exactly forms. bunch of text boxes and select boxes and on save we do an ajax save.
  40. [sri429] @car yeah they are div's but has a role region and aria-labelled-by.
  41. [marcysutton] arrow keys are not the correct navigation pattern IMO.
  42. [marcysutton] what if you need to arrow through content in a text box? is the arrow key only allowed in certain parts of the interaction flow?
  43. [sri429] as of now the current implementation has a role application for this container of the 3 div's. so it works. but not sure if that's right. Every time i see a role application i feel there is something wrong. :(
  44. [marcysutton] ayyeeee. yeah I would try to avoid role=application if at all possible.
  45. [marcysutton] Stepping back for a second: how does a sighted user know to hit the arrow keys? is there some visual cue?
  46. [sri429] actually the arrow keys work only when the focus is on the entire section
  47. [sri429] and not on the individual controls inside
  48. [garcialo] What’s the purpose of using arrow keys to move between the section?
  49. [garcialo] Oh wow…the rest of the conversation just loaded :p
  50. [sri429] @garcialo to quickly move between sections
  51. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Mar 23 19:57
    [sri429] https://web-a11y.slack.com/archives/C042TSFGN/p1490298922803782 documentation :| and gmail kind of ? help
  52. [garcialo] how many interactive elements are going to be in each?
  53. [sri429] a lot.
  54. [robdodson] quick question: does anyone know of any online accessibility / inclusive design courses specifically for UX and designers? Alice and I, and Marcy have each done developer focused courses but I don't know of any design centered ones
  55. [garcialo] @robdodson Not seen any courses…pretty much just know about the WebAIM page for designers
  56. [car] @robdodson https://www.usability.gov/what-and-why/user-interface-design.html
  57. [robdodson] @garcialo oh which page is that?
  58. [robdodson] @car thank you
  59. [garcialo] @robdodson http://webaim.org/resources/designers/
  60. [garcialo] Btw, love the Robcasts; they’re great! :)
  61. [robdodson] @garcialo thanks for the link. And thanks for watching! =D
  62. [maya] Not classes, but got a few tips here: https://web-a11y.slack.com/archives/C042TSFGN/p1489086572335906
  63. [robdodson] oh yeah Heydon's book is a good resource, thank you @maya :)
  64. [car] Another book: http://www.uiaccess.com/JustAsk/
  65. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Mar 23 20:03
    [robdodson] I've also got https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/design/inclusive onmy list
  66. [robdodson] nice thanks @car
  67. [car] And the MS Inclusive Design page has a Manual and Activities and Videos: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/design/inclusive
  68. [robdodson] yep, I love the work they've been doing. Their little illustrations are so cool
  69. [car] Yep, it's a very cute banner. :)
  70. [maya] @robdodson are you planning on doing an a11y course for designers?
  71. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Mar 23 20:09
    [robdodson] @maya not personally. But I'm trying to put together a sort of a11y handbook for teams. So trying to figure out resources for each role
  72. [robdodson] Our material design team has put together some guidelines https://material.io/guidelines/usability/accessibility.html as well if anyone is interested
  73. [car] Will definitely check it out.
  74. [maya] yep, I asked earlier about that to try to find out who was in involved with those guidelines - our team is curious if we can reuse some of the example images
  75. [robdodson] oh you're that maya!
  76. [sri429] @robdodson dont know about a course but @bendylu "Universal Design for Web Applications" is a very good read
  77. [robdodson] yes alice has reached out to figure out what's up with that
  78. [maya] awesome, thank you so much!
  79. [robdodson] cool thank you @sri429
  80. [maya] @robdodson I think we may be working on similar efforts, we are also creating a role-based guide. Currently finished content for front end, content design, visual design (just wrapped!). Going to start on product managers next...
  81. [robdodson] oh great! are you planning to share it publicly?
  82. [maya] I sure hope so!
  83. [robdodson] @maya that reminds me, the folks at Vox put something together a while back http://accessibility.voxmedia.com/
  84. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Mar 23 20:14
    [car] Here's another not-quite-course that walks through principles of design: https://www.interaction-design.org/literature/article/learn-to-create-accessible-websites-with-the-principles-of-universal-design
  85. [maya] yep, that was one of the inspirations for us @robdodson
  86. [robdodson] @car thanks! looking at it now
  87. [robdodson] @maya excellent =D
  88. [sri429] @robdodson is there any plan to publish the handbook once its done?
  89. [robdodson] yep!
  90. [robdodson] first I'm probably going to do the material as a talk at Google I/O this year
  91. [robdodson] then follow up with a published version on developers.google.com/web
  92. [robdodson] but i'm still in early phases and don't want to reinvent too many wheels so just gathering as much information as I can currently :)
  93. [albert] not free but tuts+ has one for designers https://webdesign.tutsplus.com/courses/a-beginners-guide-to-web-accessibility
  94. [albert] viget also has some great resources for designers. this post (also has links to others from them) is pretty great https://www.viget.com/articles/designing-for-accessibility-what-to-watch-for
  95. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Mar 23 20:19
    [robdodson] nice! thanks @albert!
  96. [albert] :)
  97. [albert] @robdodson my bad also this http://a11y.me/#ux-and-design
  98. [robdodson] oh snap! thank you LD
  99. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Mar 23 20:26
    [sri429] forgot about this. lynda also has a course Foundations of UX: Accessibility
  100. [robdodson] wonderful thank you @sri429
  101. [sri429] Before this question gets lost, is it safe to ignore arrow key navigation for screen reader user? as he will anyways have region shortcuts. https://web-a11y.slack.com/files/sri429/F4PGV4YJ2/img.gif
  102. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Mar 23 20:32
    [conley] @robdodson This was helpful as a primer for my UX/VD prior to kickoff and reviews https://medium.com/salesforce-ux/7-things-every-designer-needs-to-know-about-accessibility-64f105f0881b#.gmpeykxbq
  103. [sri429] but the only catch is if he has to come back from 3 to 1 its just two <- arrow keys where are as if he is relied completely on region shortcuts to jump from 3 to 1 it might take few more keys, not sure if there is any cycle back to previous regions is there.
  104. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Mar 23 20:38
    [maya] There are two classes on Treehouse, seems more dev-focused tho:
    https://teamtreehouse.com/library/web-accessibility-compliance
    https://teamtreehouse.com/library/accessibility
  105. [marcysutton] @sri429 you might want to discuss in #aria-patterns instead. Although the name of the channel itself highlights the core problem–there is no accessible interaction pattern for using arrow keys to navigate between regions (as far as I know)
  106. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Mar 23 20:45
    [marcysutton] also users aren't necessarily male.
  107. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Mar 23 20:45
    @marcysutton can we keep it here... some of us have real difficulty accessing slack channels :)
  108. I'd love to be able to read aria-patterns (as APG co-editor it seems really relevant) but my employer blocks slack
  109. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Mar 23 20:46
    [marcysutton] fair enough! the volume in here can be difficult to keep up with though. Are threads represented in Gitter/irc?
  110. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Mar 23 20:46
    nope :(
  111. but they aren't on mobile either which is my only alternative for slack access (they don't block it there!)
  112. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Mar 23 20:47
    [marcysutton] i wonder if we could also pipe specific channels like that one
  113. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Mar 23 20:47
    that would be awesome :)
  114. i'm also trying to get an exception for the block but that is quite a process
  115. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Mar 23 20:47
    [marcysutton] we'd have to talk to Steve Faulkner or Ian Pouncey for that, I believe
  116. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Mar 23 20:53
    @sri429 so long as it is clear what the thing is when focus lands on it I would be ok with the left/right arrows not working for a screen reader user - so long as there is an easy way for them to skip to the correct region (landmarks/heading etc.)
  117. I don't think the same method has to work for every user so long as there is an equivalent efficient method. I could argue that what you are adding for a keyboard user is merely giving them equivalent functionality to what a screen reader already has.
  118. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Mar 23 21:26
    [car] @jnurthen It would be ok if it was equivalent, but the navigation for a keyboard user is not the same as for a screen reader user. @sri429 said "actually the arrow keys work only when the focus is on the entire section and not on the individual controls inside". Whereas for screen reader users, landmark navigation is from everywhere. So I'm inclined to agree with @marcysutton that arrow keys are not the correct navigation pattern.
  119. [car] Which is not too helpful, I know, because I don't have a good suggestion for what is the correct navigation pattern.
  120. [car] Except to say that I sure wish the browsers would pony up and provide keyboard navigation for landmarks! :)
  121. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Mar 23 21:28
    @car but if you removed the arrow key navigation presumably you would have no problem with it - which is my point. Having it improves things for a keyboard only user (assuming they know what keys to press) but doesn't make things worse for screen reader users (other than 1 extra tab stop)
  122. @car oh I am with you on the landmark navigation for keyboard users
  123. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Mar 23 21:29
    [car] I can flog this FF bug once more... <grin>
    https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=670928
  124. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Mar 23 21:32
    after 6 years you think there is hope?
  125. i'd be happy just having a key to move to the main content....
  126. never mind the rest of it
  127. and eliminate skipnav links to the trash can
  128. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Mar 23 21:42
    [car] With the FF bug, I made the mistake of trying to over-think it (my big long comment 59 and comment 61). So with that in mind, I have just officially opened basically the same bug, but for Chrome: https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=704698.
    I kept it simple. Please add a comment or give it a star if you agree... :)
  129. [melsumner] Is Keyboard navigation with non-standard keyboards AAA compliance?
  130. [karlgroves] Define “non-standard” keyboards?
  131. [melsumner] Ha that was my next question
  132. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Mar 23 21:47
    [conley] I would assume something like a switch
  133. [melsumner] So I'm putting keyboard navigation into my app ofc, but while browsing I see an article about keyboards used in France
  134. [karlgroves] The short answer is “keyboard-only” does not take into consideration the type of keyboard
  135. [melsumner] My app is also localized.
  136. [karlgroves] It shouldn’t matter.
  137. [melsumner] Ok
  138. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Mar 23 21:59
    [car] @robdodson IBM has a new Accessibility Handbook for Designers, Developers, and Offering Managers: http://ibm.biz/a11y-handbook
  139. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Mar 23 22:05
    [mayabenari] Does Irlen syndrome (or Scotopic Sensitivity Syndrome) affect people equally for black text on white background and white text on black background? Or is one more prominent? cc @heydon
  140. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Mar 23 22:17
    [stefangeles] Anyone know of a good A11y conference (preferably west coast) coming up?
  141. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Mar 23 22:18
    @stefangeles you have just missed it
  142. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Mar 23 22:23
    [robdodson] @car this IBM guide is great, thanks for sharing
  143. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Mar 23 23:33
    [melsumner] @stefangeles I'm talking about #A11y at EmberConf in Portland on Monday ;)