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A11y Slackers Gitter Channel Archive 27th of April 2017

What fresh hell is THIS now? - Patrick Lauke
  1. Sean Elliott
    @seanus1138
    Apr 27 00:52
    Hi a11y slackers, just wondering what everyone thinks about this article? https://hackernoon.com/rems-and-ems-and-why-you-probably-dont-need-them-664b9ce1e09f specifically points 1 and 2??
  2. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 01:10
    [marcysutton] FYI: Threaded replies don't make it through to Gitter/irc
  3. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 02:02
    [beefancohen] congrats @marcysutton :)
  4. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 02:13
    [caesar] @marcysutton duly noted, thanks
  5. [marcysutton] Thanks @beefancohen =D more cool stuff to come!
  6. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 02:31
    [beefancohen] looking forward to it!!
  7. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 04:52
    [herin] Hi, Has any one worked on <Canvas> accessibility? I have a Canvas and alternative text in the form of table in the same page. Would that be sufficient?
    Any practical user experience issues with Canvas ?
  8. akhramov
    @akhramov
    Apr 27 08:02
    What i've done is marked table with radiogroup role and tr's with radio role. But this way VO reads all cells of TR at once and doesn't allow to go in.
  9. Any guidance would be appreciated
  10. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 09:04
    [simong] Is there a good way to get FF + VoiceOver to respect aria-hidden? We use aria-hidden on our material icons flags to prevent them from being read out, but it seems that FF ignores that (as per https://api-dev.bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=780888) ?
  11. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 10:01
    [deconspray] Question: Considered creating a Slack Chat for the Accessibility Meetup in Chicago. But also want members to leverage this channel. Would creating a channel specific to a local meetup be embraced by this group (before creating one of our own)?
  12. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 10:31
    [caesar] In my opinion you should just create a channel. People who don't join the channel won't see it anyway.
  13. [caesar] You can even make it private to actively prevent other people from accessing it.
  14. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 10:41
    [deconspray] @caesar Thanks! Can you make a channel private after having it public for a period (just thinking about future flexibility)?
  15. [deconspray] ...it looks like I can, however it's permanent once made private.
  16. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 11:08
    [caesar] I think you can archive or delete the channel. Or at least an admin can...
  17. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 13:16
    [iandevlin] Hello everyone! Does anyone have any good examples of keyboard accessible image galleries?
  18. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 15:02
    [marcysutton] @deconspray let me know if you need admin help.
  19. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 15:25
    [cmegown] so this article popped up in my feed, and i feel like he kind of breezed past the accessibility concerns. i figured i would post it here so that folks might be willing to leave some comments on the matter: https://hackernoon.com/rems-and-ems-and-why-you-probably-dont-need-them-664b9ce1e09f
  20. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 15:32
    [cmegown] oh hey looks like @heydon is already goin' to work: https://medium.com/@Heydon/couple-of-things-id-like-to-pick-up-on-447b0e4b203d
  21. [heydon] ;)
  22. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 15:37
    [cmegown] i especially loved his murder metaphors because that's totally a fair comparison
  23. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 15:58
    [karlgroves] @herin I can poke Mark Sadecki and get him in here to answer some Canvas questions
  24. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:14
    [heydon] @cmegown I think he was trying to be funny but things are only funny where there is an element — no matter how small — of truth.
  25. [cmegown] agreed. i generally got the feeling that he "assumed" a lot of things in that article and it sent up a red flag.
  26. [cmegown] especially when there are a lot of people out there who only relate accessibility to visual impairments
  27. [scottohara] Personally anytime I see an article like this come out where someone says "eh all you need is this, so disregard those other things" I just read that as "I don't have a deep knowledge here and I don't do well with context"
  28. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 16:47
    [higley] I agree the article is annoying, but are px units still an issue? I was under the impression that changing font size within browser settings is really rare now
  29. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:14
    [cmegown] I don't think it's as important to ask how users are dealing with a problem like small font sizes rather than asking ourselves why we're prioritizing developer preference over the user experience.
  30. [cmegown] Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. We don't get to choose how users deal with things like small font sizes.
  31. [cmegown] In this case I feel like it's more important to consider what is going to provide the best and most consistent user experience regardless of developer preference.
  32. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:20
    [cmegown] Fun fact: my grandma once used an actual magnifying glass to read the text on her phone.
  33. [marcysutton] Aww, Grandma
  34. [cmegown]
    grandma computer
  35. [cmegown] stupid giphy
  36. [canfie1d] That was a keeper lol
  37. [higley] That’s adorable :)
  38. [michiel] alt=people dancing while the text “I’m the computerman” is on screen
  39. [higley] wouldn’t the argument of ux > developer preference mean we should all support browsers going back to IE6 or IE8 though? If pixel units are easier and cheaper to maintain, it seems like that could be a user benefit as well.
  40. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:26
    [higley] there’s also the problem of creating a component that could be inserted in someone else’s page. You don’t control the font size on html, so rem is out, but you also don’t control the parent element font size.
  41. [cmegown] Well Microsoft doesn't support IE6-10 anymore so unless you have a significant number of users still running one of those browsers then it's probably not worth the effort and money. Could you describe what you mean by pixels being easier and "cheaper to maintain"?
  42. [higley] Pixel units make stylesheets faster to update, and faster to test, at least in my experience. They leak less, so you don’t have to go looking for everything a change might affect. Fewer developer hours = cheaper to maintain.
  43. [higley] I tested on every browser we support, and zoom with px breakpoints work, so I guess I’m wondering how common changing the browser stylesheet in advanced settings really is
  44. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:31
    [cmegown] Ems and rems don't typically have a "leak" problem if you don't set them on containing elements.
  45. [cmegown] I can understand what you're talking about though @higley. The transition to using ems/rems wasn't natural for me but once you start thinking in terms of base-16 (or whatever base font size you have) it's not that tough really.
  46. [higley] it’s nice to say in theory, but I’ve found in practice that containing elements often have text that needs to be sized. For reference, I’ve created and maintained large sites for years using em/rem, so it’s not really that I have trouble with it, just that I’ve found it takes more time to maintain.
  47. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:37
    [cmegown] Have you tinkered around with rems at all? Those behave a lot more like what you're describing but you still get the relative aspect.
  48. [cmegown] rems = relative to the html element and therefore still lets users change font size
    ems = relative to the context and therefore still lets users change font size
  49. [higley] Yes, I’ve used rems, but they’re not overly useful if you aren’t the one controlling the font size of the page
  50. [cmegown] Fair enough. In the end you have to do what will work for your system.
  51. [higley] Yup. But if not using px is a big enough accessibility concern, I’d want to find a workaround, or a way for a developer to pass in a base font size or something. It’s an added layer of complexity, which is why I’m wondering whether it’s worth it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  52. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 17:57

    [cmegown] Well I've seen Sass mixins that allow the developer to still write in a pixel value, but on compilation converts it to an em or a rem. I've also heard of build tools that will search and replace pixel values with ems/rems.

    I've never actually used any of them but it's worth considering if you want to make the switch but can't get everyone on board.

  53. [higley] @cmegown I wrote a couple Sass functions that do that, actually (joy/allthethings emoji). It’s not an issue of getting everyone on board, but of writing components that need to be self-contained, and aren’t aware of their surroundings
  54. [cmegown] Ahh I see, apologies for the misunderstanding. That's a tough problem regardless!
  55. zakim-robot
    @zakim-robot
    Apr 27 18:04
    [higley] Yeah, it’s definitely interesting. I switched to using rems when writing entire sites that don’t need IE8, but individual components would need extra complexity to use either em or rem. If directly changing browser settings isn’t common, I’d prefer to make them simpler and more foolproof :p
  56. Šime Vidas
    @simevidas
    Apr 27 21:25
    Hi folks! I have a quick question: The ARIA Authoring Practices say that sometimes it makes sense to keep a disabled button focusable: http://w3c.github.io/aria-practices/#kbd_disabled_controls
    How do I do that? By adding tabindex="0" to the <button disabled> element?
  57. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 27 22:14
    I would only ever recommend making disabled buttons focused within a toolbar. If they are just buttons you should never do that.
  58. and within a toolbar how you do it depends on how you are managing focus
  59. Šime Vidas
    @simevidas
    Apr 27 23:16
    I see. The toolbar example 1 uses JavaScript-based focus management with tabindex="-1" on the buttons. I wonder why the buttons are div role=button instead of just standard buttons.
  60. James Nurthen
    @jnurthen
    Apr 27 23:18
    .. because it is the aria authoring practices ;)
  61. button elements would be fine too.
  62. Šime Vidas
    @simevidas
    Apr 27 23:19
    Ok, Thanks!